Well its finally come to my attention that it would be wrong of me to try and debate the workings of God and such without having read the Bible, so I am now going to plow through it using the site http://www.biblegateway.com

Because of this im most likely going to be creating a massive amount of new posts since this is going to cause me hoards of questions about the things im reading.

First one up is...

Genesis 2

9:And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Question: Why put a tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL?, why not just have a tree of Good. Its like your asking for your children to do the wrong thing. Had it been of complete Good, they would have never found Evil, Satan would ne screwed and the story ends there surely?

Also...

Genesis 3

16: To the woman he said,

"I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for[e] your husband,
and he shall rule over you."

He shall rule over you? Well I guess that makes arguments in christian marriages easier... "Im the man now shut up"

Also...

I really should have read this sooner, Apparently back in ADAM's day everybody had an average lifespan of 900 years. Was it something in the water?

It's how God wanted it.

Jere your just making it obvious that your a mindless drone of christianty.

If your answer to any argument against the bible is going to be "Because God said so so it is" then i am going to bring a whole mass of quotes direct from it where that responce will make you seem a very nasty person indeed.

Care to answer fully?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
[Genesis 2

9:And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Question: Why put a tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL?, why not just have a tree of Good.


I want to know which tree this is? is good an evil Gods doing or is it mans way of putting things into black and white?

16: To the woman he said,

"I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for[e] your husband,
and he shall rule over you."

He shall rule over you? Well I guess that makes arguments in christian marriages easier... "Im the man now shut up"

I do know a few couples and this is how they do things. I also know their wifes are VERY unhappy and would like to leave but they feel that would be a sin. I even know one lady that thinks all men are terrible in bed because of the way her husband treats her, she has told me that she wishes being a lesbian was not a sin.
Of course not all Christians are like this, these are extremes, but none the less they are still out there.

Originally posted by mad dog
I want to know which tree this is? is good an evil Gods doing or is it mans way of putting things into black and white?


15The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat[d] of it you shall surely die."

Its the tree with the apple on it, that the serpent had Eve take and bite from then pass it to Adam.

Thanks, that is what I thought. This also brings up another question, Why would God put such a beautiful apple tree there and then say don't touch? Kind of like buying your kid their 1st car and then saying "you can't drive it".

Exactly, he wanted them to do the wrong thing so he could blame and punish them. Pretty sick if you ask me, and as i read more of the bible it doesnt change theres loads of it where GOD behaves like that.

I think if there is any way to look at this - it's certainly not literally. Whatever you read in the Bible - remember it was written to describe something in child like terms, of concepts ultimately beyond mans comprehension. It was surely never intended to be a black & white actual narrative of events.

Eating from the tree represents exercising free will.

Yes, as we have discussed before, the use of free will would destroy religions.
The march must be to the beat of the drum.

I think its great you are seeking to learn more about God.
I love your questions and concerns, they really make me think also.

But my question is? why not get some of your answers you are seeking from the professionals? Meaning, can you consult with a priest, or pastor in your area?
They are taught to understand the Bible, and may help you understand it fully.


Mary

Probably the last people anybody should talk to.

Professional brain washers.

Originally posted by DrewM
Probably the last people anybody should talk to.

Professional brain washers.

Depends on the denomination. If you go to a pastor that believes in absolute literal translation, then yeah, you'll get one of those "DON'T QUESTION THE BIBLE!!!" answers. The far less conservative denominations would probably be quite helpful.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that is what yours is!!!!
Only an opinion. That is why Christians are becoming a dying race. Because people don't like facts, so they invent their own churches and beliefs.

Originally posted by ucanbe2
Only an opinion. That is why Christians are becoming a dying race. Because people don't like facts, so they invent their own churches and beliefs.

I'd hardly consider Christianity something that's facing extinction.

Originally posted by ucanbe2
Because people don't like facts, so they invent their own churches and beliefs. [/B]
--------------------------------------------

You mean like the Christians did? Oh, yeh- they made it right by saying God directed it. Like most other religions did.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Exactly, he wanted them to do the wrong thing so he could blame and punish them. Pretty sick if you ask me, and as i read more of the bible it doesnt change theres loads of it where GOD behaves like that.

If you want answers to why some things happen the way they do, log into http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0110/q0110.html You can read this booklet online called "Questions Skeptics ask about the God of the Old testament. A couple of the questions are what you asked in your opening post.

Well im finally happy to see what God is really like then, as per a passage in that --

Shock Value.
The mission of destroying communities who resisted should have instilled in Israel a shuddering realization of the consequences of idolatry--especially when that idolatry resisted the truth about God. Fulfilling the role of executioner should have formed in them a healthy fear of God and a hatred of false religion. They themselves would not be exempt from such judgment. They were not "chosen" because God had a favorite family, but to show the whole world the wonderful benefits of knowing the God of gods and the terrible consequences of ignoring Him.

These consequences being a mass culling of the entire village, women, children and all.

J man this is such a heap of shit, They basically say in every question "Yes its complete crap, but if you reword it and spin it a little it actually means something completely different and thus GOD is great, real and worthy once more"

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
J man this is such a heap of shit, They basically say in every question "Yes its complete crap, but if you reword it and spin it a little it actually means something completely different and thus GOD is great, real and worthy once more"

If yuo really want answers to these things, the answers are there. In yuor opening post, you ask why God allowed the tree of knowledge of good and evil and why he allowed sin to be able to get into the world. That really is a good question. That booklet does provide the answer. That is why I posted the link to it.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Well its finally come to my attention that it would be wrong of me to try and debate the workings of God and such without having read the Bible, so I am now going to plow through it using the site http://www.biblegateway.com

First of all until you have read the whole of the bible or at least begin to have a general concept of the history of the people and the times, why would you want to debate the workings of God and people's belief system?

It reminds me of the eastern tale of the eight blind men positioned around different parts of an elephant. They tried to describe the whole of the elephant by the limited piece they could grasp.

You also have to compare what Christians label as the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament". There is a huge difference in genre and attitude and approach to life.

I commend your attempt at gaining knowledge but I don't think reading a Chapter is going to help you understand anything. And taking more than one passage at a time is difficult since there can be more than one concept in just one paragraph alone.

Originally posted by DrewM
I think if there is any way to look at this - it's certainly not literally. Whatever you read in the Bible - remember it was written to describe something in child like terms, of concepts ultimately beyond mans comprehension. It was surely never intended to be a black & white actual narrative of events.

Eating from the tree represents exercising free will.


That is the way I would interpret it too. One can not have free will without choice and to have "choice" one must have knowledge of different options.

Understood Sal, in which case i will continue to plow through it and come back when im finished.

But for the record, Jere has said that he takes the bible literally so go figure at his argumentative standing point.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Understood Sal, in which case i will continue to plow through it and come back when im finished.

But for the record, Jere has said that he takes the bible literally so go figure at his argumentative standing point.

Actually, if you are a reader, once you get going, it is a fascinating read...believer or non-believer. I had a Jewish prof who believed that one could not possibly understand literature well until one had thoroughly read the bible for it's literary perspective.

If you are into mythology at all you will find amazing parallels, thematically at least. All things seem to connect eventually... if only we could find the missing link.

Originally posted by ~Sal~
once you get going, it (the Bible) is a fascinating read....If you are into mythology at all you will find amazing parallels...

Absolutely.

Those amazing *parallels* exist because such a great deal of the Bible is lifted from previous gods, myths and absurd fables.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Absolutely.

Those amazing *parallels* exist because such a great deal of the Bible is lifted from previous gods, myths and absurd fables.

Yes from the beginning of time, it really has been mankind's need to find something greater than ourselves. I sure would hate to think that we are as good as it gets.

What exactly is your belief Sal?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
What exactly is your belief Sal?

Well...that is a huge question. I'll give you a small summation. I believe that mankind shows from cave drawings on down that we have a need for something Greater than us. Better than us. Something all encompassing which says that we are not merely flesh and blood. I would say that it is in each individual if they look into themselves, to see that if they set "ego" aside there is more than just "I".

I believe in soul. I believe in afterlife. I believe in God. Every breath I take, every blade of grass tells me there is more to the universe than we have the capability to understand.

There is more power in each of us than we can yet comprehend. It is all about energy. Everything is energy. We use less than 10% of our brain capacity. Our understanding is minuscule.

I do believe that Christ is the Son of God. He is The Word made Flesh....that says it all. But somewhere along the way much has been lost or held back. Much will be revealed.

I believe we come "from" home and that we will return home...Some of us, many times.

That would be a bare bones view. I believe no one religion holds the whole truth but all hold much. But anything which leads to a higher understanding of ourselves, a truth... is a good thing be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim or secular. If it makes ya better, you're heading in the right direction.

Sal i really do admire and respect your views and the way you express them.

Regards
Ryan

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Sal i really do admire and respect your views and the way you express them.

Regards
Ryan

Wow...thank you Ryan, that was an incredibly kind thing to say...

Catch ya down the road!

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Well...that is a huge question. I'll give you a small summation. I believe that mankind shows from cave drawings on down that we have a need for something Greater than us. Better than us. Something all encompassing which says that we are not merely flesh and blood. I would say that it is in each individual if they look into themselves, to see that if they set "ego" aside there is more than just "I".

I believe in soul. I believe in afterlife. I believe in God. Every breath I take, every blade of grass tells me there is more to the universe than we have the capability to understand.

There is more power in each of us than we can yet comprehend. It is all about energy. Everything is energy. We use less than 10% of our brain capacity. Our understanding is minuscule.

I do believe that Christ is the Son of God. He is The Word made Flesh....that says it all. But somewhere along the way much has been lost or held back. Much will be revealed.

I believe we come "from" home and that we will return home...Some of us, many times.

That would be a bare bones view. I believe no one religion holds the whole truth but all hold much. But anything which leads to a higher understanding of ourselves, a truth... is a good thing be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim or secular. If it makes ya better, you're heading in the right direction.

Thanks Sal! That's a very unique view. Interesting.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Thanks Sal! That's a very unique view. Interesting.

~laughing~ yeah jere... it's pretty unique all right... Luckily for me, my partner can agree with all except the "return again thing"... He as a right wing Christian can't quite wrap himself around that one... :cool:

Good post Sal :)

I think you're probably close to the mark.

Throughout history man has proven that many things believed to be supernatural were really unusual but natural phenomena. It stands to reason that this will remain so for a long time to come. Arthur C. Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic". If true, then God,or whatever you want to call him, must be pretty indistiguishable too. I think we'll eventually discover, probably eons from now, that God isn't "supernatural" at all, just natural.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Good post Sal :)

I think you're probably close to the mark.

Throughout history man has proven that many things believed to be supernatural were really unusual but natural phenomena. It stands to reason that this will remain so for a long time to come. Arthur C. Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistiguishable from magic". If true, then God,or whatever you want to call him, must be pretty indistiguishable too. I think we'll eventually discover, probably eons from now, that God isn't "supernatural" at all, just natural.


Well Vilepagan for now I'll take close :) but darned if on somedays you don't just feel like you are "almost completely there" if even for a fraction of a second. If I have it "totally" wrong I should get extra points for effort..........:D And besides there's always that Billy Joel song... "I'd Rather Laugh With the Sinners than Cry with the Saints"

Cheers

Originally posted by ~Sal~
And besides there's always that Billy Joel song... "I'd Rather Laugh With the Sinners than Cry with the Saints"
"...The sinners are much more fun." :)

From the song entitled "Only the Good Die Young."

Originally posted by Vilepagan
If true, then God,or whatever you want to call him, must be pretty indistiguishable too. I think we'll eventually discover, probably eons from now, that God isn't "supernatural" at all, just natural.

Sorry my fingers were working faster than my brain. Seems to happen frequently.

Can you expand on that a bit please. It rang a bell for me but I don't know why.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
"...The sinners are much more fun." :)


yea...but it'll suck once you get to hell LOL

That's the price one has to pay for not submitting. Pick: the best 100 years of your life (pun intended) and infinity in hell OR the worst 100 years of your life and infinity in Heaven.
(Let's see how many people choose the first option.)

Originally posted by STOpandthink
That's the price one has to pay for not submitting. Pick: the best 100 years of your life (pun intended) and infinity in hell OR the worst 100 years of your life and infinity in Heaven.
(Let's see how many people choose the first option.)
Option A. Heaven sounds like a dull, boring, monotonous place. Why would I want to be there?

Actually I know what you mean. But compared to eternal soul-consuming agony in everlasting fire...I will take heaven. :)

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Actually I know what you mean. But compared to eternal soul-consuming agony in everlasting fire...I will take heaven. :)
Nah, not agony. All my friends and most of my family members will be there! It will be one big party.

And Satan...he's a pretty cool dude. We'd probably agree on a lot of things.

That is if you can mutter a word between flesh-tearing screams of pain. You do realize there is no talking in hell, just pain....

Originally posted by STOpandthink
That is if you can mutter a word between flesh-tearing screams of pain. You do realize there is no talking in hell, just pain....

O right and you know this how?

Originally posted by STOpandthink
That is if you can mutter a word between flesh-tearing screams of pain. You do realize there is no talking in hell, just pain....

I also want to know how you know this for fact???

This type of preaching allways makes me laugh if you can't get them to join one way you can allways fall back on the whole devil hell made up garbage. hell does not exist it would make no sense. If God is all powerfull and loving he would have put an end to this hell BS before it ever happened. You say satan had a choice, fine, but if god had all power and knowledge then he/she/it would have been able to explain things to satan so therefore no hell. Why do you feel the need to bring up hell, I can make a quess it is what you were programed to do by those HUMANS before you. It was/is a scare tactic to get followers nothing more. If you want to believe in Christ then by all means do so, but why bring in a bad being to force your belief? Why waste time on a hell, devil, satan, etc... why not just be happy with Christ and God? I quess the big question comes up now, do you believe because you are scared and want to go to the safe place or do you believe just bacause?

How do I know this? How do I know anything else? Because the Bible tells me so. :) Do I know it for a fact...I know that there will be pain and torture, that I am sure of. Whethere there will be actual fire or something else, I don't know.
Mad dog, by no means I am trying to scare you. I would rather never bring hell up, because this isn't the reason why anybody should love God anyways. I don't believe in God so I won't go to hell, but so that I go to heaven and be with Him. That's what I want others to feel-the love for God. We can drop this hell topic right now, I don't need it, and, frankly, I don't think it's a good argument.
But why would God let there be Satan and hell if he is all-that? I don't know. He is God, ask Him. :D There are so many things I don't understand, but I have faith in His true judgment and His love and care for us. I have faith in that, and I am sure He does what is good.

how do you burn a spirit?
since god made everything out of nothingness, all had to have been made of god. so we are a part of god, so me going to hell is just god burning himself? "nasty little skin cancer, i'll show you" (god takes a cigarette and burns the thing off) god's a sadistic son of a bitch


Originally posted by STOpandthink
That is if you can mutter a word between flesh-tearing screams of pain. You do realize there is no talking in hell, just pain....

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Do I know it for a fact...I know that there will be pain and torture, that I am sure of.

Because the big bad book told you so, I really do wish the Jehovahs are right, at least then i can get some peace.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Because the big bad book told you so, I really do wish the Jehovahs are right, at least then i can get some peace.

Why...what do the Jehovah's say?

You'll drop dead... leaving nothing but sinners behind.

Rid the world of religion and lets see how bad it really would be.

Originally posted by ivan
how do you burn a spirit?
since god made everything out of nothingness, all had to have been made of god. so we are a part of god, so me going to hell is just god burning himself? "nasty little skin cancer, i'll show you" (god takes a cigarette and burns the thing off) god's a sadistic son of a bitch

Wow...Ok, let me explain it to you. If God created us out of Himself, than we would be perfect and like God. Are we? No. God created us out of NOTHING, therefore, there is not connection between us and Him, except love that some of us have for Him, and He has for all of us.
How do you burn a spirit? With a spiritual fire.

you can't make something out of nothing. it goes agaist the laws of physics and common sense. you know, nature. something "god" made. so "god" would have to make everything out of him/herself. probably pulled it out of its ass. aw damn, we're shit.
ever see the movie dogma?


Originally posted by STOpandthink
Wow...Ok, let me explain it to you. If God created us out of Himself, than we would be perfect and like God. Are we? No. God created us out of NOTHING, therefore, there is not connection between us and Him, except love that some of us have for Him, and He has for all of us.
How do you burn a spirit? With a spiritual fire.

Lol! Do you even realize what you are saying? You are saying that God can't do something. That's ridiculous. By the very definition God is omnipotent, meaning He can do WHATEVER He wants.