I guess no one comes here, but here's some Metaphysical shit for you:

In the astral plane (like in dreams and shit) you don't have a back of the head (or a head) because you are just a roving psychic eyeball.

In this state you can look completely backwards without turning around and see things in a mirror image. That's why sometimes in dreams someone might be missing the wrong leg or your neighbor's house might be on the wrong side of yours.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I guess no one comes here, but here's some Metaphysical shit for you:

In the astral plane (like in dreams and shit) you don't have a back of the head (or a head) because you are just a roving psychic eyeball.

In this state you can look completely backwards without turning around and see things in a mirror image. That's why sometimes in dreams someone might be missing the wrong leg or your neighbor's house might be on the wrong side of yours.


WTF ????http://members.rennlist.com/sharkskin/Smiley_Eek-WTF.gif

I am trying to explain a little know property of the Astral Plane!

I kno wit sounds bugged out, but I had to generate some activity in here to get my friggin name off!

astral plane?
what are you talking about?

So then would you be able to see into your head?

Originally posted by MajiPirate
astral plane?
what are you talking about?

The astral plane is a realm that is basically parallel to our physical plane but it's mental.

Originally posted by mad dog
So then would you be able to see into your head?

You don't necesarily have a body at all (bu tyou could if you thought you did).

did you ever try to control a dream? You know your dreaming, but instead of just going along with the dream you take control?

That usually only ever happens for me in the "mini" dreams i have once i push Snooze on my alarm. I fall asleep again straight away but im consious enough to have a massive amount of control :)

Originally posted by mad dog
did you ever try to control a dream? You know your dreaming, but instead of just going along with the dream you take control?
----------------

Lucid dreams are fun.

You can be anything or do anything you can imagine if you let your thoughts go.

I have also slept with my eyes open, my wife noticed it one time scared her have silly.

Umm, I though we were talking about Astral plane here, not lucid dreaming. Anyways...
As far as I know (I am not speaking from personal experience), being in astral plane is kind of like being a ghost. You can move anywhere, you see the world from 'above' (4th dimension if you will), and you see/hear anything anywhere without moving a pinky.
I suppose that's nice, but I have to wonder if you are in danger when 'you' are not in your body. After all, who is guarding it if not you?
I also wouldn't suggest to anybody trying this; you might want to get into more than you can handle, plus if you are unexperienced, hack! who knows what can happen.
Don't mess with the unknows! :)

:confused:

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Umm, I though we were talking about Astral plane here, not lucid dreaming. Anyways...
As far as I know (I am not speaking from personal experience), being in astral plane is kind of like being a ghost. You can move anywhere, you see the world from 'above' (4th dimension if you will), and you see/hear anything anywhere without moving a pinky.
I suppose that's nice, but I have to wonder if you are in danger when 'you' are not in your body. After all, who is guarding it if not you?
I also wouldn't suggest to anybody trying this; you might want to get into more than you can handle, plus if you are unexperienced, hack! who knows what can happen.
Don't mess with the unknows! :)
-------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry to break the news Stop, but you probably have already astra-traveled. Most people do not realize they have done it.
Sometimes I hear people talk about a time when they thought they were awake and could not move. Sometimes, but not always, this happens in the moment that you are returning to and not quite yet in control of the body.
When my awareness first started traveling outside my body, during sleep, it freaked me out. Later I learned to enjoy the learning experiences.

Well, I don't think a second or so of astra-traveling going to do much harm. I am just suspicious of practicing it.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
-------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry to break the news Stop, but you probably have already astra-traveled. Most people do not realize they have done it.
Sometimes I hear people talk about a time when they thought they were awake and could not move. Sometimes, but not always, this happens in the moment that you are returning to and not quite yet in control of the body.
When my awareness first started traveling outside my body, during sleep, it freaked me out. Later I learned to enjoy the learning experiences.

I have an alternative, somewhat less fashionable perspective to yours.

I have had a 3 or 4 experiences waking up paralysed and being aware of a 'presence' in the room. That presence is vague but can be firelike, alienlike etc. And it seems very profound. Another time when a few of us as students were sleeping around a room I woke up and saw one of them choking to death.

I see these experiences as nothing more than being literally half awake. It has all the hallmarks of sleep: paralysis, confusion and vagueness, intensity of emotion - just with an element of being aware of the bed and room I'm in. It lacks hallmarks of reality: my friend was alive and well afterall, nothing is ever burnt in the 'fire' and so on. I've heard this half-awake thing is quite common. It's never happened again in years - though I sometimes am aware of my paralysis while dreaming and think 'I must be asleep' but can't wake myself.

This experience has been a great lesson in judging people's sightings of ghosts, aliens, claims of astral projection etc. However emphatic or however well I know the claimant I've been there myself; i've had emtionally confusing sleep-experiences which seemed profound but turned out to be meaningless events. As for astral projection (which a of mine friend claims to do regularly) it's clearly a load of nonesense. As if the human mind is not capable of constructing familair environments from a different perspective therefore seeing down into the room. If you're capable of recognising yourself in bed then you're equally capable of picturing yourself in bed.

Life seems odd at times. It don't mean a thing

I found a website

http://english.divinaciencia.com/astral_i.php?PHPSESSID=b2f2b1c515f9b16ed111f1416a9 abed6

enjoy!

Blob, the problem is that people who claim they do astral traveling can not only see familiar faces/places/things, but also travel anywhere and see anything that they had not seen before.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Blob, the problem is that people who claim they do astral traveling can not only see familiar faces/places/things, but also travel anywhere and see anything that they had not seen before.

I advise you direct such people to collect their one-million-dollar prize (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

Haha! That's cool. But you know what, I don't believe those people either. :)

You believe fantastical stories of astral projection on the basis of anecdotal whimsy but not that the Randi institute offers a prize for demonstrating the phenomena? The prize offer is formal, legalistic and transparent. I have provided a link from which you can look into it. It is detailed, with the methology for assessing paranormal claims set out clearly and unambiguously.

I can almost hear you singing as you stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes.

Hang on.

SPOt - I now realise you were saying above that you don't believe the astral projection claims; but you do believe the Randi Institute offer exists. I read it the other way round at first.

If so then apologies, ignore my last post (which won't let me edit it) and we both agree on the topic.

Blob, do you really believe that anyone that has extraordinary abilities would want the publicity?
Your time would no longer be your own. Anyone that tried to exploit astra projection would immediately be snapped up during the night and locked away in some government facility for spying on enemies. That is if they beat the corporations to the punch that wanted corporate spying done.
Fear and intimidation would be the reward, the million dollars would be useless.
Furthermore, we do not know that all people that were stupid enough to contact this agency were frauds. We only have the information at their website to inform us. The C.I.A. has been proven to have many storefronts.
A person with any abilities can live quite well without the million dollar prize and the problems that could come with it.
Some things are better left to myth and skepticism.

Yeah, blob you got it right the second time. I don't quite believe in that astral stuff.
But Dan Fussell does have a point...
Also, astral traveling is NOT extraordinary. It is said that anybody can do it with practice, just like lucid dreaming.

Yeah, blob you got it right the second time. I don't quite believe in that astral stuff.(but you called me SPOt...grrr)
But Dan Fussell does have a point...
Also, astral traveling is NOT extraordinary. It is said that anybody can do it with practice, just like lucid dreaming.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Blob, do you really believe that anyone that has extraordinary abilities would want the publicity?
Your time would no longer be your own. Anyone that tried to exploit astra projection would immediately be snapped up during the night and locked away in some government facility for spying on enemies. That is if they beat the corporations to the punch that wanted corporate spying done.
Fear and intimidation would be the reward, the million dollars would be useless.
Furthermore, we do not know that all people that were stupid enough to contact this agency were frauds. We only have the information at their website to inform us. The C.I.A. has been proven to have many storefronts.
A person with any abilities can live quite well without the million dollar prize and the problems that could come with it.
Some things are better left to myth and skepticism.

lol.

There's no responding to your post because anything I say will doubtless show, in your mind, that I am one of THEM - an agent of some shadowy secret goverment body or whatever.

Instead I'll make the most of this opportunity to post one of my favourite quotes:

"To the dedicated conspiracy theorist, all is explicable, and any incovenient facts are merely further confirmation of the diabolical deviousness of his prey."
- Francis Wheen (http://books.guardian.co.uk/top10s/top10/0,6109,1140156,00.html)

Originally posted by STOpandthink
you called me SPOt...grrr
Sorry. That was a typo not a deliberate distortion.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
But Dan Fussell does have a point...
Also, astral traveling is NOT extraordinary. It is said that anybody can do it with practice, just like lucid dreaming.
Oh puh-lease. Don't tell me you go for that paranoid nonsense. I realise astral projection may seem palatable to you because it is not inconsistent with the concept of a soul - but come now STOp, let's be adult about this. We live in the real old mundane, dreary world - not a marvel comic.

I am going to assume, out of respect for your integrity, that you do not agree with Dan Fussell's childish dreams of a sexy, dangerous and exciting world full of intrigue and supernatural espionage. I'm going to assume you do not seriously consider the government to have any interest whatsoever in two-a-penny paranormal claims. Governments can't even cover up a presidential blow job - how on earth would one believe they keep the existance of aliens, crystal power, ghosts and god knows what other wierd and wonderful powers under wraps?

Besides, if the paranormal existed and was so powerful how come a voodoo nation such as Haiti doesn't rule the world? What would our pathetic, naturalist technology do in the face of SUPERnatural powers?

Yes Dan I know, Blob must be one of THEM here to hunt you down blah blah. What a wonderful sense of self-importance crank-theorists have!

Originally posted by STOpandthink
you called me SPOt...grrr
Sorry. That was a typo not a deliberate distortion.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
But Dan Fussell does have a point...
Also, astral traveling is NOT extraordinary. It is said that anybody can do it with practice, just like lucid dreaming.
Oh puh-lease. Don't tell me you go for that paranoid nonsense. I realise astral projection may seem palatable to you because it is not inconsistent with the concept of a soul - but come now STOp, let's be adult about this. We live in the real old mundane, dreary world - not a marvel comic.

I am going to assume, out of respect for your integrity, that you do not agree with Dan Fussell's childish dreams of a sexy, dangerous and exciting world full of intrigue and supernatural expionage. I'm going to assume you do not seriously consider the government to have any interest whatsoever in two-a-penny paranormal claims. Governments can't even cover up a presidential blow job - how on earth would one believe they keep the existance of aliens, crystal power, ghosts and god knows what other wierd and wonderful powers under wraps?

Besides, if the paranormal existed and was so powerful how come a voodoo nation such as Haiti doesn't rule the world? What would our pathetic, naturalist technology do in the face of SUPERnatural powers?

Yes Dan I know, Blob must be one of THEM here to hunt you down blah blah. What a wonderful sense of self-importance crank-theorists have!

You posted twice.
But, you are right. I can possibly believe in astral traveling (although I don't think it is what they say it is) and most likely lucid dreming.
Concerning all that gov't crap. Please! You are right, gov't can't keep itself together, there is no way they can hide anything from the people. I do not believe in ANY conspiracy theories that are out there.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
You posted twice.
he he. So did you.

Blob, You carried my post to quite a length of imagination. Calling me a paranoid conspiracy nut tells me something about your character.
In your obvious ignorance of real life you should do more research before putting your mouth in gear.
The United States Government has carried on quite a few experiments in the field of what would be called loosely e.s.p.
These programs are quite documented. One of the more known was the remote viewing program (using people, some military, to attempt to spy on other countries and locate certain people).
The Soviet Union had similar programs. You can look information up on these and other government programs if you care to. I will not do it for you because I have no use for an asinine person.

I label you a Troll, and see no mental profit in further communications with you.

Oh! Lol. You're right. :)

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Blob, You carried my post to quite a length of imagination. Calling me a paranoid conspiracy nut tells me something about your character.
In your obvious ignorance of real life you should do more research before putting your mouth in gear.
The United States Government has carried on quite a few experiments in the field of what would be called loosely e.s.p.
These programs are quite documented. One of the more known was the remote viewing program (using people, some military, to attempt to spy on other countries and locate certain people).
The Soviet Union had similar programs. You can look information up on these and other government programs if you care to. I will not do it for you because I have no use for an asinine person.

I label you a Troll, and see no mental profit in further communications with you.

Links? References? Sources? Names of those locked away forced to spy using ESP? You described the Randi Institute as a "CIA storefront". What is you evidence? You have no idea who James Randi is do you?

You may sing, stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes all you like. You can label me as a troll, if that is how you define those who have different opinions and express them clearly, with references and with out any insult whatsoever. However, look at my first post. I came into this discussion with a sincere and personal anecdote of strange experiences and how I interpreted them. I then provided a link to a respected institute that offers $1M to anyone who can prove ESP (or whatever powers).

You offer nothing but assertions, whimsical anecdote and insuations that I have "no grip on real life".

STOpandthink - we have had exchanges and disagree on many things. But when have I ever not listened or been unreasonable to you? What makes you think I deserve that bullshit insult from Dan? Read my posts again if you think I am a troll or misbehaved here. I am dissapointed in you because I have enjoyed our exchanges and assumed it was mutual.

Honestly, I think Dan expects too much from us.
Dan, if you know something, please share it, don't call us trolls just because we are less informed about a certain topic. I think you are being a bit rude and assertive. If you have any evidence, please provide them, because I hold my skepticism concerning all those supernatural powers. You have a point that those people might not want to share them, but please don't judge us.
Blob, don't feel disappointed with me, I didn't do anything. I told Dan my opinion, so let's hear what he has to say.

Thanks STOp; though above it really looks like you were agreeing with Dan's irate accusations against me.

Dan has stated his intent to hide under the covers rather than address my points and engage in dialogue adult to adult. Nonetheless I have a little time on my hands today and it amuses me to post again pointing out his silliness.

Firstly, I wonder why Dan bothers telling me research into ESP is carried out? Was not I the first one to mention this, actually naming a specific body that carries out research and posting the url to it? What I dispute is not the existance of research but his baseless assertion that such superpowers are used by agencies that illegally lock people away, and that the Randi Institute is a CIA storefront to catch them.


And now, just for fun, Dan's internal contradictions: (enjoy!)

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Blob, do you really believe that anyone that has extraordinary abilities would want the publicity?

Yes I do believe they would. Afterall, Dan likes to shout it from the roof tops himself:

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
When my awareness first started traveling outside my body, during sleep, it freaked me out. Later I learned to enjoy the learning experiences.

Besides I thought pretty well everyone - not just some - has extraordinary abilities:

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Most people do not realize they have done it [astra-travelled].

Apart from which if no one wants the publicity how does the Randi Institute catch these people who never approach them for the prize offer? Even without that contradiction, if their powers are so strong they are worth using in international espionage, surely they would use those same powers to avoid getting caught.


Finally, for those interested, here are some reasons astral projection is an ill-thought out and impossible notion:

- Whatever it is that leaves your body (let's call it a 'soul') is not physical and, by simple definition, has no physical properties including no light receptors. Sight would be impossible.

- if everyone astral projects regularly there'd be a lot of soul traffic and you'd expect people to end up in the wrong body now and again

- the physical body left behind is defenseless. What a terrifying sense of vulnerability it would be knowing it's possible it could be dead when you 'get back'.

- there's no evidence. Only testimonials.

- the simplest of tests could prove astral projection. If it occurred and everyone did it there would be no controvesy (e.g. breathing occurs and we all do it - an uncontroversal statement)

- And yet it would be such a simple thing to prove if true! You would be able to look at something in another room and tell what it was. It is that simple and that's all the Randi Institute ask.

Originally posted by Blob
I advise you direct such people to collect their one-million-dollar prize (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)
Is this the same guy as the "Amazing Randi" from late 70's early 80's ?
If so, he is right up there w/Uri Geller bending forks for $..
Not the real deal..

There is on the other hand "altered states of consciousness". Which opens another door.
Most of the folks I know that have experienced this phenom have either had a head injury or under the influence of Psychotropic Drugs.
Just kidding..it can be done w/deep meditation..
been there, done that..
An out of body experience is another way to put it.
You may have seen a reference to the same in a movie or on tv where the person is floating over their own body looking down on "what's goin' on..'
this view of this experience ..on the outside lookin' in ..

Originally posted by jim's op/ed
Is this the same guy as the "Amazing Randi" from late 70's early 80's ?
If so, he is right up there w/Uri Geller bending forks for $..
Not the real deal..

James Randi was a conjureror originally and I believe yes he did use the stage name the amazing Randi.

He always made it clear his show was based on slight of hand and illusion. Not magic; not the paranormal; not new-age style 'abilities'. Au contraire! Randi became increasingly annoyed by those performers, like Uri Geller, who claimed their act was based on 'higher powers' (or whatever). He considers such people con artists, spreaders of misinformation and deceit for the purpose of personal gain. Indeed, there was a famous incident where Jimmy Carson had Geller on his show and invited Randi to keep an eye on him:

"In a effort to expose the truth about Geller, Randi went to Johnny Carson. Geller squirmed and fumbled through a disastrous 22 minute appearance. Try as he might, he was unable to perform a single feat. Unbeknownst to him, Carson's producers, consulting with Randi, had set up safeguards against cheating". link (http://www.randi.org/jr/bio.html)

Randi now devotes himself to debunking paranormal claims, with total success so far. Apart from the research institute he also makes appearances where he replicates the con-tricks of psychics, spoon benders etc with the express purpose of exposing the non-paranormal techniques they use to do it.

You can watch the Geller debunking episode as an wmv file here (http://www.darat.org/~dimossi/James.Randi.debunking.on.Tonight.Show.wmv) .

Originally posted by Blob

- there's no evidence. Only testimonials.

Kinda like a religious experience, huh ?
Originally posted by Blob

- And yet it would be such a simple thing to prove if true! You would be able to look at something in another room and tell what it was. It is that simple and that's all the Randi Institute ask.

If it were that "simple" , it wouldn't be mystical, would it ?

Originally posted by Blob
Randi now devotes himself to debunking paranormal claims

I thought he eluded to being an illusionist.
Look out Arthur C Clarke ..
:D

Originally posted by jim's op/ed
Kinda like a religious experience, huh ?
Identical.

Originally posted by jim's op/ed
If it were that "simple" , it wouldn't be mystical, would it ?
And if it worked, it wouldn't be "mystical", would it ?

Of course in reality it is that simple. For example psychics typically recreate a drawing sketched "secretly" by a member of the audience and so on. As simply as that.

Originally posted by jim's op/ed
I thought he eluded* to being an illusionist.
Look out Arthur C Clarke ..

Arthur C Clarke on James Randi:
"I regard Randi as a national treasure, and perhaps one of the remaining antidotes that may prevent the rotting of the American mind."
-Arthur C. Clarke link (http://www.randi.org/jr/bio.html)

There are of course close ties between professional illusionists and scepticism (e.g. Penn & Teller), for obvious reasons.


* I'm assuming you meant "alluded"; not that he tries to avoid being an illusionist as in "eluded".