Curiously since im always on here during work and tend to most of the time, bring the subjects up to those around me. We have been discussing with the guy whos a devouted christian

A) what proof would he need to make him stop believeing in god

and

b) If theoretically this proof was provided what would his reaction would be.

I pose these questions to those of you whom are religiously inclined.

Kind Regards
Ryan

As for me.. I don't think that anything could make me stop believing in the existence of God.

Interesting thread.. Can't wait for the others to reply

{a} Proof is in the eye of the beholder, what proof would he except? It is hard to disprove something that is built on belief. His personal opinion would probably make him reject anything that disagreed with his belief.

{b} If you could prove something to him where he would except it then I would say he would be sad and upset that he wasted his time???? But if he believed in you and your proof then I quess he would get over it and go on with life.

Now you speak of showing proof, what proof do you have that there is no God? You are using your belief of proof, from one man to another there faith, belief, and opinion will change. To prove and opinion is a very hard thing to do.....

Which is why my question was exactly phrased so as to find out from that person exactly what THEY would consider Proof, not what I would consider it.

And thus the second question being should that proof, which that person has said would make them stop believing, be provided to them, how would they feel.

The answer, "no proof would stop me believing" is fine.

I dont have any proof that there isnt a God, thus why im asking my questions.

I think it would scare the heck out of a lot of religious people. They would no longer have someone/something acting as their moral guide and they would have to start turning inward to their conscience rather than outward to their religion. No one telling them right from wrong anymore. They would have to develop a conscience for the sake of doing good rather than for the sake of going to heaven. They would no longer be able to blame the devil for bad things and thank god for good things. Many would be lost without the crutch of religion to lean on.

And what would they do with their Sunday mornings.......?

And poor ol' billy graham would have to find another job. He would no longer be able to shame the sheople into giving him money.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Which is why my question was exactly phrased so as to find out from that person exactly what THEY would consider Proof, not what I would consider it.

So why are you asking us, why not ask that person?

And thus the second question being should that proof, which that person has said would make them stop believing, be provided to them, how would they feel.

I answered this part

The answer, "no proof would stop me believing" is fine.

If you can't change a person beliefs how would you change their truth in belief?

I dont have any proof that there isnt a God, thus why im asking my questions.

Do you believe in God? If so it would be very hard for you to prove to another there is no God.

Your not asking a question about what is a river and what is dirt those would be easy to prove. You are asking a question about a personal belief. My truth is different from yours{same as with the guy at work}, you might think eating worms is nasty where I might say it is like candy for a baby.

These are interesting questions, have you ask the guy at work what he thinks? I can tell you, I believe in a higher power through my own personal happenings, and I doubt highly you could ever change my {truth} point of view.

Originally posted by Echo2
I think it would scare the heck out of a lot of religious people. They would no longer have someone/something acting as their moral guide and they would have to start turning inward to their conscience rather than outward to their religion. No one telling them right from wrong anymore. They would have to develop a conscience for the sake of doing good rather than for the sake of going to heaven. They would no longer be able to blame the devil for bad things and thank god for good things. Many would be lost without the crutch of religion to lean on.

And what would they do with their Sunday mornings.......?

And poor ol' billy graham would have to find another job. He would no longer be able to shame the sheople into giving him money.

Even though I may agree with your opinion about mans religion{in this case example Christianity} how would you feel if you find out it was all true? :)

Good then why didnt you say in your first post. "No proof would stop me believing" and leave. Like i pointed out, im fine with that.

Its annoying me how your missing the point so much.

The bit about "why are you asking us and not that person" is because im interested in others views on the subject?? The fact im on this forum should kind of hinted at that.

Im asking anyone with ties to a religion to tell me! what proof they would require to dispell their belief in god and if such proof was provided how they theorize they might feel.

Sheesh

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
[quote]Its annoying me how your missing the point so much.

Maybe you should go back and read your own post you did ask about HIM. I also did try to explain in my 1st post that the truth is in the eye of the beholder. Now pull the wad out of your arse and get over yourself.

The bit about "why are you asking us and not that person" is because im interested in others views on the subject?? The fact im on this forum should kind of hinted at that.

Maybe you should go back to question {a} What proof would heneed to make him stop believing in God. Also part {b} does say his reaction.

Im asking anyone with ties to a religion to tell me! what proof they would require to dispell their belief in god and if such proof was provided how they theorize they might feel.

Sheesh

Instead of jumping my arse maybe you should read my post............Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look,

As mentioned to begin with, those were the very questions I asked him. Thus why the He, him and his were in them. I was hoping (and clearly that hope has faded with you) that the general populace of AllForums would be able to reword it so it was aimed at them, and so if they were female it would be her instead of him etc.

Stop being a twat, since you clearly understand the question, Your entire aim is to try and make me 'personally' look a fool for what gain? Your own personal pleasure?.

Now either answer the question normally or dont reply at all... in fact dont reply.

The only proof that there is no God would be if there were no Universe and no "me".

Lokideviluk, after your question is answered to your satisfaction, I would like to know why people believe in a particular one of these man made religions and how they believe that it is of God rather than man. Is it simply because of written words or is there a point in the religion that God approaches them and says they have reached a certain level and he now approaches them directly in reward to faithful service.

In answer to your original question.
The God I recognize is in me, you, and all that is. He/she/it, would have to manifest to a life form- say to me that he is dying and would be no more. Then it, me,you and all that is would fade away. Then I would believe there is no God left.

I view the church as a form of after life insurance. No one can definitively prove that you don't need it, and if you do, then you're set (this is a joke for the slower people amongst us). I think it's good to have faith, or a belief in something greater than you. It teaches humility, and while there are people like Echo who never misses an opportunity to bash EVERYONE who believes in God, religion isn't necessarily the "crutch" she makes it out to be. There's no doubt that some people use it as such, but her all encompassing statement reflects a type blindness and overt ignorance that I've come to expect from people with her general outlook on life.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk

Im asking anyone with ties to a religion to tell me! what proof they would require to dispell their belief in god and if such proof was provided how they theorize they might feel.




The Lord has already shown me He is real. I testifeid about that before in this forum. I have seen the Lord do mighty things in my own life and the others. With no shadow of a doubt, God is real.

humility is definitely something this society lacks.....

Let's see what proof would I accept that there is no God...hmmm

Okay, first someone would have to prove that the Bible is not divinely inspired, you know prove the predictions that it made were wrong, show contradictions in thought, demonstrate it’s mistakes in its historical descriptions. Second, demonstrate that Jesus did not rise from the dead. Third, give me absolute power and knowledge over everything in the universe, only then could I be sure that there is no God.
I have to ask:
What evidence would you accept that there is a God?

So, by definition - you say somebody would have to prove those things wrong. This means that in order to believe what you do, you must have had them proven to be correct.

Where is the proof?

Originally posted by DrewM
So, by definition - you say somebody would have to prove those things wrong. This means that in order to believe what you do, you must have had them proven to be correct.

Where is the proof?
------------------------------------------

:) :D :bike:

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Curiously since im always on here during work and tend to most of the time, bring the subjects up to those around me. We have been discussing with the guy whos a devouted christian

A) what proof would he need to make him stop believeing in god

and

b) If theoretically this proof was provided what would his reaction would be.

I pose these questions to those of you whom are religiously inclined.

Kind Regards
Ryan

heeeeeeeeeeeeeey...get back to work!!!

There can be no proof one way or another since "belief" by it's own character is subjective. So many of you assume that a belief in God must mean following a church and the set of beliefs perscribed by that church. It may give you a lot of fodder for bashing, but it is very limited in it's scope and not true.

Nothing outside of "me" could prove there is no God. And were I to look inside and find that I no longer believed in the existence of a higher power I would feel despair for many, many reasons. But it would not change my moral code nor the way I live my life on a day to day basis.

Good questions...!

I agree with Innocent Sweety. I will never resign my religion. Perhaps I can trim it or stretch it a tiny bit, but nothing more. I don't care what happens.

Prove:
To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence.

I dont think that is possible to PROVE God doesnt exist, just like for some it is impossible to PROVE that he does. I do like the question, but i find it to irrelevant, almost like asking, how would you feel if you could prove We live in the matrix. Whats the point?

Oh and although echo feels that all of us "christians" are only doing good to go to heaven, if i found out God did not exist then i wouldnt really feel that bad. I have led a good life that I am pleased with and i am sure that if not for the things i have been taught and learned i would not be in the place in life i am now. If ANYTHING, my religion has helped me be the person i most likely need to be.

Oh and the points Stark made are all quite valid...

JDBIII

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Oh and the points Stark made are all quite valid...

JDBIII

Only if you accept that the Bible can be used as evidence to "prove" itself, which is not a sound conclusion.

Vile, its good hearing from you too...lol :D Now you say the bible cant be used to prove itself. Isnt evolution used to prove itself? Now u will probably say that evolution doesnt prove itself, the signs of evolution is what proves it, or something like that (im kinda tired and cant get my thoughts quite right). In that same way its not the Bible that proves itself but the signs of the things the Bible fortells/fortold that prove it as valid.

I don't understand,
If god has so much power, where was he during the holocaust? He was just sitting up in heaven watching? If there really is a god, than he's either lazy, doesn't care, or he enjoys human suffering. What a class act!

Also,
Some day, we'll find life on other planets and everyone will wake up and realize how unimportant we all are.

Atheist are just as deluded as religious folks. No proof either way. Only assumptions

If asked the opposite, whether I would believe in god if I had proof, then the answer is yes. And according to many theists I will indeed get my proof in the form of never-ending excrutiating agony. An utterly convinced atheist though I am, I have to confess that after the first few billion years or so of unendurable torment even I may begin to get just a tad suspicious that I was wrong to deny god.

For a theist though the answer has to be they would never stop believing. If theists justify belief in a thing by arguing it cannot be proved to be non-existant then their grasp of the concept of proof is wanting.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
In that same way its not the Bible that proves itself but the signs of the things the Bible fortells/fortold that prove it as valid.

Good to see you to James...

Now what's all this nonsense about biblical prophecies being true? Prove it. :D

Originally posted by Uhlouis
I don't understand,
If god has so much power, where was he during the holocaust? He was just sitting up in heaven watching? If there really is a god, than he's either lazy, doesn't care, or he enjoys human suffering. What a class act!
One of the most common human misconception about God. You say that just because suffering exists, God can't be all-loving or omnipotent.
Now take the opposite, take the world where everything is perfect: no suffering, no pain, no fear, no tribulations, no persecutions, no faith(why would there be faith?) Got the image? If this was the case then all the good qualities would dissapear too, like patience, virtues, faith, courage, self-sacrifice and so many others that we are so glad to see in people today. You see that without this suffering and without God the world would be a dull place. (Also the fact that the Jews were the main target adds some explanation too)
Now let's look at the real world. We live, we suffer, we hope, and Christians wait for death so they can go to heaven. (hopefully all have been good enough) In heaven everything is perfect, just as I described, but there is also God. With God there is no dullness, no boredom, no time. If you want to go there, accept Christ and be saved, it's that easy.

Originally posted by STOpandthink

Now take the opposite, take the world where everything is perfect: no suffering, no pain, no fear, no tribulations, no persecutions, no faith(why would there be faith?) Got the image? If this was the case then all the good qualities would dissapear too, like patience, virtues, faith, courage, self-sacrifice and so many others that we are so glad to see in people today.

With God there or not, the above is still probably going to be heaven.

There is no heaven without God.

Yes there is.

Where are you getting this from? I have the Bible, what's your information source?

I think the point he's trying to make is a simple one: your faith, which is guided by a belief in something you can't prove, is no more valid than the assertion he made by stating heaven exists without God. What's the point, really? You two can go back and forth debating until you're blue in the face but it hardly changes the fact neither one of you can prove a goddamned thing.

Originally posted by mad dog
Even though I may agree with your opinion about mans religion{in this case example Christianity} how would you feel if you find out it was all true? :)

If gods existance were proven. I would still deny him. For he has shown that he has no empathy or love for human beings. He put us on this earth, made us speak separate languages, gave us unspecific and inacurate information to determin his existance and he allowed so much suffering and hate and torture and arm and murder and rape to continue.

No loving or good entity would allow small children and innocent animals to be tortured. No good and loving entity would purposely allow mankind to seaparate into different religions and languages.

I can find nothing to worship about this entity. It is more like a devil than a god.

Originally posted by Echo2
If gods existance were proven. I would still deny him.

God can show you that he is real if you allow really wanted to know and allowed Him to show you that he is real. But I am just curious. If you have no desire to believe in God, why would you post in the religion sub-forum quite often? Wouldn't someone who has no desire to know about God, not bother to even post in the religion sub-forum?

For he has shown that he has no empathy or love for human beings.

God has shown me that He does have empathy and love for us. Many don't accept His love so how they they embrace His love?

He put us on this earth, made us speak separate languages,

Mankind caused that upon themselves.

gave us unspecific and inacurate information to determin his existance

Again, He can show you that he is real if you are really want to know.

and he allowed so much suffering and hate and torture and arm and murder and rape to continue.

God gave man a freewill. Poeple choose to do wicked. That doesn't mean God is like that. Those who do wicked will be accountable for their actions and less they repent, they are destined for hell.

No loving or good entity would allow small children and innocent animals to be tortured.

Although I can't understand why He allows this to happen, what are we doing about all the garbage that goes on in this world? Bad people get away with doing bad, because good people sit back and do nothing.

No good and loving entity would purposely allow mankind to seaparate into different religions and languages.

As far as different religions are concerned, God didn't purpose for that. Man chose to not follow the Lord and make their own rules about right and wrong and that is why there is different religions.

I can find nothing to worship about this entity. It is more like a devil than a god.

I very rarely ever see people attribute any of the wickedness and corruption in this world to Satan. Satan really deserves the flack for he is the author of sin and wickedness, yet not too many people even make mention of him being behind all that goes on.:confused: Instead they blame everything on God

Thanks, the J Man, for a second I was afraid I would have to answer all those statements, but I see you handled it quite well.
I just want to add that God is loving and the reason why He didn't make heaven and perfect people in the first place is unknows to any of us (although I have a guess). We need to realize that God knows all things outside of time and space. Look at your own self at 10 years, at 20 years, at 50 years, at 100 years. You grow and you perceive the world different every time. God is already grown up, He already knows all things. Who are we to tell Him that He is wrong in something? Who are we to call Him bad, when He is Good by default? God is Life, God is Love, and God is Good. That's some of His definitions.
Why all that evil? In another post I already addressed that question. In short-to allow for good. If not for the sufferings, we wouldn't have things like mercy and compasion. Why should we feel sorry for somebody when everything is all right with him?

Satan really deserves the flack for he is the author of sin and wickedness
What what what what what? Didn't GOD create that big tree of Knowledge? Didn't God decide to let them have that power? Satan told them it existed. God CREATED it. So what's this about Satan being the author of sin and wickedness?

God certainly created the tree, but the choice was up to man.
You see, there was a kind of battle: God and His commandment vs. Satan and his temptation. The choice was man's. He (or actually she) chose and here we are.
Could God prevent it? Ceirtainly! Why didn't He? Because He wanted us to see that without Him, our choice will lead us to destruction. He also saw that much good will come eventually. (Christ and saints for example)

If you have no desire to believe in God, why would you post in the religion sub-forum quite often? Wouldn't someone who has no desire to know about God, not bother to even post in the religion sub-forum?

Hi J-man.

If that's a genuine question (rather than a disguised "bugger off atheists") then I can answer:

Personally, I am very interested in the big questions of life. With the vast majority claiming to have the ultimate answer - god - I am compelled to check out their claims.

Also, on a practical note, and for reasons beyond my control, I am increasingly encountering religionism amongst various people I interact with on a daily basis. Coming on-line helps me understand them better and allows me to see how they might react to my godless views.

Finally it is quite saddening to know so many people throw their lives away fretting over the contents of a book of fairytales. If I can shed any light on the dark maze of superstition in which you languish then I will truly have been a good samaritan.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I think the point he's trying to make is a simple one: your faith, which is guided by a belief in something you can't prove, is no more valid than the assertion he made by stating heaven exists without God. What's the point, really? You two can go back and forth debating until you're blue in the face but it hardly changes the fact neither one of you can prove a goddamned thing.

Well i cant post in Politics (since its all about america) or History (dont know enough) so this is the only place i can debate etc.

Good point though and im starting to lose interest with the christian fundies and will actually start learning american history and politics just to have a different forum to post in.

Originally posted by the J Man
[B]
Mankind caused that upon themselves.


If a women has a child and this child is never discipilined or shown right from wrong by the mother, and then this child goes on to kill say a bunch of his class mates, who is responsible?

Originally posted by the J Man

Although I can't understand why He allows this to happen, what are we doing about all the garbage that goes on in this world? Bad people get away with doing bad, because good people sit back and do nothing.


WE DO NOTHING?? God is the dumbshit who actually lets these evil people into Heaven!

This is quoted -

God Doesnt Exist

Nature and reality are congruent words, nature is reality, reality is nature. All that exists is real, and all that is real exists. Everything that is real is governed by nature, it is nature. From every dimension, to every black hole, hypernova, solar flare and gravity. If something does not exist, it is not real. Therefore if it exists, it becomes part of reality, ergo nature.

So if something "supernatural," were to exist, by its own definition is illogical and non-existant, it would no longer be "supernatural," merely natural. That which does not exist is intangible [I.e. A concept] It cannot exist, being logically impossible.

Reality = A / Nature = B | Ergo: A = B, B = A

In order for somthing to cause itself, it must preceed itself. Nothing preceeds itself. Therefore, it is illogical for somthing to cause itself. Q.E.D.

If God exists, that means that it is part of nature. If it's part of nature, it is not supernatural. Also, as something which exists, it cannot be inconsistent. There is nothing that is tangible that is inconsistent.

For example, A being which is omnipotent must be illogical. Can a God make a rock bigger than he can lift? If so, then he would be unable to lift it. If not, he wouldnt be able to create one bigger than he could not lift.

Therefore god would be bound by the laws of logic. I.e., God is a natural entity which had a beginning and cannot do the impossible. A "God" that had a beginning, could not do the impossible, sounds alot like me, a human being. Nor would this God be omniscient, omnipresent... God(s) Can only exist as a concept, like invisible pink unicorns.

Through all of the contradictions in the bibles, and illogical claims, such as Jesus rising from the dead, meaning millions of people worship a 2,000 year old jew zombie nailed to two peices of wood... Magical trees, talking snakes, etc... God simply does not exist.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Why would anyone worship a deity that supposedly has the power to stop 40,000 children from dying of starvation every day, yet doesnt?

It was a picture of a black woman in Northern Africa. They were experiencing a devastating drought. And she was holding her dead baby in her arms and looking up to heaven with the most forlorn expression. I looked at it and thought, "Is it possible to believe that there is a loving or caring Creator when all this woman needed was rain?" [Charles Templeton, former evangelist, referring to a picture in Time Magazine, when asked by Lee Strobel when he realized he lost his faith]

Think of how many people have died for an "all loving" deity... Just in the christian religion alone! The holocaust, the inquisition, crusades, waco texas, salem witch trials, massacre of wounded knee, trail of tears, cortes and montezumo, the list goes on and on.

Were any deities listening to the prayers of a small boy asking for help while he was being molested by a priest?

You must consider that since a casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith proves nothing. It proves everything equally, from 2+2=5 to "God exists because I have faith." It's an inane concept without justification. Two hands working do more than an infinite amount clasped in prayer.

Wake up people, Gods dont exist!

Organized superstition has been the cause of millions of deaths. It is evil. It keeps people from connecting to their humanity and their conscience. It supports hatred and discrimination in very devious and deceitful ways. The idea that one superstitious belief is better or the only right one feeds into the hate and discrimination. Religious superstition uses fear to control individuals. The absolute “believe of you will suffer” is impressed upon inexperienced minds. The absolute that questioning said superstition will cause harm to ones soul is impressed upon them.

These organized superstitions exist only to control human behavior and spread.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Satan really deserves the flack for he is the author of sin and wickedness
What what what what what? Didn't GOD create that big tree of Knowledge? Didn't God decide to let them have that power? Satan told them it existed. God CREATED it. So what's this about Satan being the author of sin and wickedness?

Satan is the one who tempted and oured mankind into sin. He is the author fo sin for he brought it into the world. He also commited the first sinhimself when he was a chief angel and the leader of praise and worship in Heaven. It was his pride that was the original sin. He wantesd to exalt Himself above God and take God's place.

Satan literally hates your guts and everyone else's guts and wants to lead as many as possible into eternal destruction.

Yes God is the one who created the tree. He allowed mankind to know good form evil so that we can make a willing choise to serve God or not, to do good or evil, to live in rigtheousness or wickedness. Have gave us choices.

Originally posted by Blob
[B]Hi J-man.

If that's a genuine question (rather than a disguised "bugger off atheists") then I can answer:

Sure it's genuine. I just wonder why certain people who want nothing to do with God come into a sub-form like this. I am not saying that everyone who is a non-believer is like that, but some just come in to cause trouble. Some are just looking for answers and want to know why we believe what we believe but some just come here to mock and belittle us.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
If a women has a child and this child is never discipilined or shown right from wrong by the mother, and then this child goes on to kill say a bunch of his class mates, who is responsible?

Obviously the mother is responisble for the fact that she didn't raise the child right and teach her child right from wrong and that there is consequences to doing wrong, but if the child is old enough to know better, he is responsible for his own actions as well. At the tower of Babel, the people who ran things were adults who knew better. besides if there is never consequences to one's actions, then they will keep on doing what they are doing.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
If a women has a child and this child is never discipilined or shown right from wrong by the mother, and then this child goes on to kill say a bunch of his class mates, who is responsible?

Who do you think is responsible and why?

Satan is the one who tempted and oured mankind into sin. He is the author fo sin for he brought it into the world. He also commited the first sinhimself when he was a chief angel and the leader of praise and worship in Heaven. It was his pride that was the original sin. He wantesd to exalt Himself above God and take God's place.
Hey, god created him too. He obviously knew what was going to happen, he knows everything.

Yes God is the one who created the tree. He allowed mankind to know good form evil so that we can make a willing choise to serve God or not, to do good or evil, to live in rigtheousness or wickedness. Have gave us choices.
It's a choiceless choice if god knows we're going to do it, he was just waiting for it to happen just so he could punish us. Why? It's a dilema without logic, if one being created everything, that means that one being is neither good nor evil, since it created both. God cannot be the ultimate good if he created evil for the sole purpose of watching conflict and seeing who would follow him and who he gets to damn into hell. So who damns us to hell, God or Satan?

I just wonder why certain people who want nothing to do with God come into a sub-form like this. I am not saying that everyone who is a non-believer is like that, but some just come in to cause trouble. Some are just looking for answers and want to know why we believe what we believe but some just come here to mock and belittle us.
This is the "Religion" forum, not the "Christian" forum. Not to mention this is a forum for debating topics, not for proselytizing. It's not here for you to display what you believe but to argue it.

Obviously the mother is responisble for the fact that she didn't raise the child right and teach her child right from wrong and that there is consequences to doing wrong, but if the child is old enough to know better, he is responsible for his own actions as well. At the tower of Babel, the people who ran things were adults who knew better. besides if there is never consequences to one's actions, then they will keep on doing what they are doing.
If somebody never encounters something in their life how can they know if it's good or bad? You can base it off of something, but what if there's nothing to base it off of? The people at the time of the Tower of Babel had nothing to base the current experience off of, they were the first, the guinea pigs. Since we're imperfect and judgmental, we of course will judge and condemn those who didn't know better, but why would God? He never said no, they didn't have the knowledge of previous people to think this was wrong, and God outright punishes them severely for something and they really had no knowledge of why. The analogy works, they were adults, but it was impossible for them to know better because that far in the bible there wasn't enough information to base a decision off of.

Originally posted by Blibblob


It's a choiceless choice if god knows we're going to do it, he was just waiting for it to happen just so he could punish us. Why? It's a dilema without logic,

He's not waiting to punish us, He desires that you choose life rather than death. He desires that you don't go that way but allows you to choose whether you want o live in righteousness or wickedness. When we do wrong ful things, we hurt God, we hurt others and we hurt ourselves. There is gotta be consequences to our actions. If people get away with doing wrong, that just encourages them to continue to do wrong.



if one being created everything, that means that one being is neither good nor evil, since it created both. God cannot be the ultimate good if he created evil for the sole purpose of watching conflict and seeing who would follow him and who he gets to damn into hell.

God never created evil at all. Evil is the absence of good just like darkness is the absense of light or cold is the absense of heat.

So who damns us to hell, God or Satan?

If you end up in hell, you damned yourself to hell. No-one else but you choose whther you go to Heaven or hell. Why not choose to stay out of hell rather than go to hell? hell wasn't made for us but was made for Satan and his angels(demons). But many choose to go that way when they can go the other way and choose eternal life in Heaven.


This is the "Religion" forum, not the "Christian" forum. Not to mention this is a forum for debating topics, not for proselytizing. It's not here for you to display what you believe but to argue it.

I understand that evryone has a right to post their point of view, but some people jsut come in to provoke trouble.


If somebody never encounters something in their life how can they know if it's good or bad?

Than of course you will expect them to grow up the way they've been taught unless what they have been taught is unlearned and they learn to lvie by what is right.

The people at the time of the Tower of Babel had nothing to base the current experience off of, they were the first, the guinea pigs. Since we're imperfect and judgmental, we of course will judge and condemn those who didn't know better, but why would God? He never said no, they didn't have the knowledge of previous people to think this was wrong, and God outright punishes them severely for something and they really had no knowledge of why. The analogy works, they were adults, but it was impossible for them to know better because that far in the bible there wasn't enough information to base a decision off of. [/B]

You have a good point, but if you read genesis11:4, it says "Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the Earth.

If they knw about Heaven, they must have known about God. If they know about God, they would have some degree of knowledge about what is right and wrong. Cain who killed his brother AbelGenesis4:8-13), knw what he had done was wrong. He even tried to hide it from God(vs.9).

Also, what would you consider being punished severely(concerning the tower of babel)? Yes, the Lord scattered them abroad and caused different languages, but would you consider that severe punishment?

What was God supposed to do about it? Just sit back and allow them to do what they were doing?

Am I a fool to allow an ignorant child to ridicule his Father?

I had a significantly larger post, and I appologize for these brief scraps instead, but if you have any questions, comments, or simply wish to argue with me, then BY ALL MEANS GO FORTH AND DO SO. In this game of life, I won't have another man lose. I came here to open the eyes of the people of this world who can't see beyond this life. What is there in death? What will await an atheist? Do you not see how difficult it is to picture your thoughts, personality, life, memories, all that makes you who you are disappear from existance? That your life would end the moment you died? I find it extremely difficult to contemplate such a ridiculous thing. Surely our lives must continue!

As for evolution itself, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, one of science's own observed laws, denies its posibility:
Nothing can't create something, neither can something become nothing.

An almighty creator is the only possibility for the fact that all life already contradicts science.

Look at a common wristwatch, tell me what you see.
I see something that obviously didn't create itself, something unique. I see something that shows that there was a designer who made that watch for a specific purpose.

How much more complex is nature, our minds, our organs, our bodies, the animals, our planet, our universe? Consider how unique the earth is, consider how unique people are.

Open your eyes, is not the very founding simple cell of evolution so complex that it nearly overfills a harddrive with the information within it?

How unique is the Bible itself? Prophecies, great literary work, shows advanced literary skills of our ancestors, changes lives, proves to be very useful in archaeological study, has many kings, dates, and reigns in reference to our history books, and claims inspiration from God himself. Very few other books have survived the test of time, and no other book was prosecuted so severely as this one. Men and women have given their lives for this book, yet millions have died without knowing its author nor its message.

I sympathize with you all and ask wholeheartedly that you please tell me of any concerns you may have concerning my God, for anyone can die, anywhere, at anytime, I don't want my message to be even a moment late.

Evolution is known for its natural selection, so why is it that some of the most powerful creatures are no longer in existence? Why is it we are the ones who experience emotions, and have personality? Why are we so unique? Each of us is different in so many ways surely this did not all happen by chance.

As for God being devoid of good character, I ask you did/do your parents discipline you or do you as parents discipline your children? Parents discipline their children for their benefit, out of love, that they may grow up to be wonderful people. Do not hate the LORD's discipline, do not resent his rebuke, he does these things out of love, and we may not understand it sometimes, because His ways are far above our own. I pray that all of you may come to know Jesus Christ one day.

Yeah! Proves of existance of God, I have heard all of them. (Don't tell anybody, but all of them can be cotradicted...tsh!)
But, please, don't listen to me. I am just sceptical when it comes to proving that God exists. By any means continue what you do. May be if I see you are succeeding I will join you.
btw. I guess you wouldn't know from this post and since you are new-- I am a Christian.

I wasn't speaking to you, nor do I have any idea why my browser submitted the same message a good 4-5x. >.<

Anyway....

I was speaking with the man who quoted a mathematic-like solution to God's nonexistence, Loki-something or other. Funny, his name had the word "devil," in it. Must've been a coincidence.

I can promise you now, you will never ever turn me towards Christ or God so dont bother trying.

And yeh my name, God Of Mischief who for the record clearly must exist... "But theres no proof" you say? Well you must have faith in order to know of him, and he is the real God. Loki is the only God, You cant prove me wrong for proof would prove all Gods wrong including your own so hush.

The devil part was shortened from Devilla, but it serves a purpose that at the end of the day Id rather stand alongside Satan than your false God.

Originally posted by Messenger Truth
As for evolution itself, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, one of science's own observed laws, denies its posibility:

This is a common error made by people who don't understand science, or the theory of evolution.

The theory of evolution doesn't address the question of the origin of life, it describes the progression of life from simple forms to more complex ones.

The Christian Bible mentions God creating something from nothing many times however, and this idea does contradict accepted scientific principles.

Nothing can't create something, neither can something become nothing.


So are you saying the Bible is wrong when it states that God created this or that thing?

Btw, you seem to be referring to the first law of thermodynamics, not the second, and the second law speaks about the process of entropy in a closed system, which does not describe this planet, or the life it contains.

When I was very, very young...I had a tail and gills. I evolved.

He's not waiting to punish us, He desires that you choose life rather than death. He desires that you don't go that way but allows you to choose whether you want o live in righteousness or wickedness. When we do wrong ful things, we hurt God, we hurt others and we hurt ourselves. There is gotta be consequences to our actions. If people get away with doing wrong, that just encourages them to continue to do wrong.
Desires are empty. If he knows that people are going to do it then there is a flaw in the entire system. If he doesn't want us to but knows we will then obviously he did something wrong. As his creation why would we do anything he didn't want us to? Don't say free will because he gave that to us too, not wanting for us to use it aparently. That's just stupid. The only conclusion that can be derived from that is that god wants some people to go to hell.

God never created evil at all. Evil is the absence of good just like darkness is the absense of light or cold is the absense of heat.
Baloney. God created the universe and us and said it was good. God created EVERYTHING and said it was good. Meaning god created Lucifer and said he was good, meaning god created the tree of knowledge and said it was good, god created us and said we were good. God created three things that led to evil and said they were good. God created evil and said it was good. I agree with him. Without evil, life would suck.

If you end up in hell, you damned yourself to hell. No-one else but you choose whther you go to Heaven or hell. Why not choose to stay out of hell rather than go to hell? hell wasn't made for us but was made for Satan and his angels(demons). But many choose to go that way when they can go the other way and choose eternal life in Heaven.
If hell was created for Satan then why do we end up there? Who puts the soul down there? Who decides wether or not you go up or down? Who ultimately decides? God could put an evil person in heaven if he so wanted to(and if some christians are right and that a jesus believing repenting first degree murderer would go to heaven then he does let evil in there), but he does not. He lets them go to hell instead of heaven. God does that, who else has the power?

I understand that evryone has a right to post their point of view, but some people jsut come in to provoke trouble.
In case you haven't noticed Stark comes here only to proselytize and provoke trouble. It's not a one way street.

Than of course you will expect them to grow up the way they've been taught unless what they have been taught is unlearned and they learn to lvie by what is right.
Exactly. Then if they are never taught then why should they go to hell?

If they knw about Heaven, they must have known about God. If they know about God, they would have some degree of knowledge about what is right and wrong. Cain who killed his brother AbelGenesis4:8-13), knw what he had done was wrong. He even tried to hide it from God(vs.9).
They didn't have your knowledge of god. You can't know that they knew what was going on. Besides God said this:
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
It was fear that motivated him, he never said it was "wrong", just that he was afraid that they would be able to do anything. So how could they know what was going to happen?

Also, what would you consider being punished severely(concerning the tower of babel)? Yes, the Lord scattered them abroad and caused different languages, but would you consider that severe punishment?
Yes. Somebody who was previously your best friend may now be on the opposite side of the planet speaking a different language. Often the biggest barrier is language and the translation of it, it has caused wars.

What was God supposed to do about it? Just sit back and allow them to do what they were doing?
Said stop. But apparently he didn't want to do that, he wanted what happened to happen because if he didn't punish them like that, nothing would be impossible. God was afraid.

Originally posted by Blibblob

The only conclusion that can be derived from that is that god wants some people to go to hell.

God certainly doesn't want anyone to end up in hell. hat is why He freely forgives anyone who repents and trunns toHim for forgiveness regradles sof what they have done.


God created the universe and us and said it was good. God created EVERYTHING and said it was good. Meaning god created Lucifer and said he was good,

At that time Lucifer was good. It's when he rebelled against God, he chose to go agaisnt God and to be evil.

meaning god created the tree of knowledge and said it was good, god created us and said we were good. God created three things that led to evil and said they were good. God created evil and said it was good. I agree with him. Without evil, life would suck.

If you agree with Him, why are you putting Him down? You said "Without evil, life would suck." You blame God for the evil in this world(although God has never been beind evil), yet you said that life would suck without it. You just made a contradictory statement.


If hell was created for Satan then why do we end up there?
As I have mentioned before, you choose to end up there. You don't have t go there but you ask "why do we end up there?" If you realize that you don't want to end up there, simply choose eternal life rather than be on the pathway to hell.

God could put an evil person in heaven if he so wanted to(and if some christians are right and that a jesus believing repenting first degree murderer would go to heaven then he does let evil in there), but he does not.

YOUR RIGHT! He doses not let evil into Heaven. If soemone repents of their sins, they are cleansed from all unrigtheousness. They are a new creation in Christ. Their old way of living is the past and they are now a child of God rather than soemone serving satan.


Exactly. Then if they are never taught then why should they go to hell?

God will hold an individual accoutnable according to what they know and what they have been taught and their level of maturity to understand right from wrong. Everyone who is old enough would have some degree of knowledge towards right and wrong. Noentheless, you obviously would. You have the intelligence to post what your posting, you have enough knowledge to be held accoutable to God for how you live your life.



He didn't do it out of fear, for God has nothing to fear. He is the Almighty. He did it because He couldn't let them carry on in their bad motives.


Somebody who was previously your best friend may now be on the opposite side of the planet speaking a different language. [/QUOTE]

God does answer prayers for those who put their trust in Him. if you wanted to see your best friend again, God will make away if you trust in Him for that.

Often the biggest barrier is language and the translation of it, it has caused wars.

Man's wickedness has caused wars, not language. I go to work with people who speak very little english. Doesn't mean that they are at conflict with anyone else in thw work place. Sure it is pretty hard to understand someone who barely speaks english, buit it is something I can still live with.

God certainly doesn't want anyone to end up in hell. hat is why He freely forgives anyone who repents and trunns toHim for forgiveness regradles sof what they have done.
Okay, you disagree with my claim. Why? You missed the whole part of disproving my claim, you just said it was wrong and we don't care what you say unless you have something to back it up.

If you agree with Him, why are you putting Him down? You said "Without evil, life would suck." You blame God for the evil in this world(although God has never been beind evil), yet you said that life would suck without it. You just made a contradictory statement.
I'm merely disproving your claims. God cannot be good if he allows evil. Two possibilities that I claim, either god doesn't exist or god is not a super good being. My statement was not contradictory, see I don't believe in god so how can I personally blame him for something? I can't. However your dogma can and it is the christian faith that I'm working off of. I put god behind evil because he is. If god is not behind it, then who is? Evil is part of humans and he created humans, he created the entire concept of evil. He said what not to do and that it was evil, he created that evil.

As I have mentioned before, you choose to end up there. You don't have t go there but you ask "why do we end up there?" If you realize that you don't want to end up there, simply choose eternal life rather than be on the pathway to hell.
You're simply not following. Again, you aren't debating you are just prostylizing.

YOUR RIGHT! He doses not let evil into Heaven. If soemone repents of their sins, they are cleansed from all unrigtheousness. They are a new creation in Christ. Their old way of living is the past and they are now a child of God rather than soemone serving satan.
Here you are again picking peices of what I say but not getting the meaning of it. You're picking and choosing what would work best to say more of what you want to say, more of what you think will "turn people to god". I can't debate with you if you're being a politician.

God will hold an individual accoutnable according to what they know and what they have been taught and their level of maturity to understand right from wrong. Everyone who is old enough would have some degree of knowledge towards right and wrong. Noentheless, you obviously would. You have the intelligence to post what your posting, you have enough knowledge to be held accoutable to God for how you live your life.
This is not about me. You say god will only hold somebody accountable for what they know yet your very own scripture disproves that. It and you say that the only way into heaven is through Jesus. If somebody doesn't know who Jesus is they can't go to heaven. Yet you're saying right now that god wont hold them accountable for what they didn't know but he will. So why is somebody who doesn't know any better going to hell?

He didn't do it out of fear, for God has nothing to fear. He is the Almighty. He did it because He couldn't let them carry on in their bad motives.
Bullshit. You don't know their exact motives but based off of what they said they want to just expand themselves. Why did god stop them? I took it directly from his own words. Because if they can do this then nothing is impossible. He is obviously afraid that they will do something even more drastic so he stops them from doing that by confusing langages and places.

God does answer prayers for those who put their trust in Him. if you wanted to see your best friend again, God will make away if you trust in Him for that.
No. You again missed the entire point.

Man's wickedness has caused wars, not language. I go to work with people who speak very little english. Doesn't mean that they are at conflict with anyone else in thw work place. Sure it is pretty hard to understand someone who barely speaks english, buit it is something I can still live with.
Wrong again. Mistranslation can be the start of wars. Somebody saying one thing and another person translating that wrong can make it seem much worse than it was. Your analogy with a few people doesn't work, when an entire nation's diplomacy depends on this one translation and it fails, war begins.

To post a reply to this topic I think you must first make a distinction between the definitions of "god" and the supreme being of a specific religion (usually also called "god").

The general "god": The Supreme Being, omnipotent, omniscient, the force. Nothing beyond the above is assumed.

The specific god: The Supreme Being, who happens to fit the description of a certain religion exactly, including its deeds, ideas, inclinations, endorsements...etc.

If god exists and is unlike described in any religion, I think it's impossible to prove it doesn't exist, simply because you don't assume to know enough about it.

To prove that god as described by a specific religion does not exist, one solution is for there to be a god (general or specific), who is unlike described in the above specific religion, and for this god to simply show up.

Note that the above method does not disprove that god exists and is actually a general god.

I can't think of anyway to prove the non-existence of god otherwise.

Well, Christ showed up, but some people didn't believe Him. God was travelling with Moses and His people, but some of them disregarded Him also.
Look at Loki. He will never bow down to God. It doesn't matter if the evidence will be rubbed in His face. Unlucky for him, I don't have any evidence to rub into his face, otherwise he might have repented. Loki, I am truly and honestly feel sorry for you.
Blibblob:
God cannot be good if he allows evil. Arg! That is NOT logical! Why can't He be good? What is good? I will tell you, God is Good. He is the standard of good, everything that He does is Good. Just because we dissagree with Him on some parts, doens't mean that He is bad, it means that were are mere mortal humans, who can't see past our own nose.
Blibblob:only way into heaven is through Jesus. If somebody doesn't know who Jesus is they can't go to heaven. Yet you're saying right now that god wont hold them accountable for what they didn't know but he will. So why is somebody who doesn't know any better going to hell?

No, you are misinterpreting our statements. A person has to accept Jesus to go to heaven. People in Old Test. didn't know Jesus, many other people didn't know Jesus. Will they all go to hell? NO! They might die, see Christ and accept Him. If they were good on earth (and Christ says that there is no excuse for them not to be) then He will accept them if they accept Him.
Remember that God is merciful and just. He is not a machine that will be like: "You. Did. Not. Accept. Christ. Equals. Hell. For. You." He is more logical and "emotional" and loving than we are. He will look at people individually and judge them accordingly. Don't worry, He is a just Judge.
Concerning translation and different languages, people brought it on themselves. You can't commit a murder, and when you are out of a jail go kill somebody else and say "jail made me bad, it's the judge's fault." No, it's your fault! You are responsible for your actions, and if you do wrong, you will be punished accordingly. This punishment is a chance to repent, to become good. Don't waste it.

Originally posted by Blibblob
God certainly doesn't want anyone to end up in hell. hat is why He freely forgives anyone who repents and trunns toHim for forgiveness regradles sof what they have done.
Okay, you disagree with my claim. Why? You missed the whole part of disproving my claim, you just said it was wrong and we don't care what you say unless you have something to back it up.

I am not missing anything here. You believe that God is cruel and mean and wants some to go to hell. The truth is, He desires for no-one to end up there,


I'm merely disproving your claims. God cannot be good if he allows evil. Two possibilities that I claim, either god doesn't exist or god is not a super good being.

You haven't disproved anything. You simply choose to believe that God is weither not real or evil. He did not put evil into this world, saatn did. He allowed it out of freewill because He wants us to choose to serve Him not be like a bunch of robots who only do what we are programmed to do.

Evil is part of humans and he created humans, he created the entire concept of evil. He said what not to do and that it was evil, he created that evil.

Evil is part of humans because we have a sin nature. That didn't come from God. That came from disobedience of God telling them not to eat from the forbidden fruit. Satan who lured and tempted Eve to eat from the forbidden fruit, is the author of sin. God did not authorize it. he allowed it out of wanting people to choose whether to serve Him or not.


You're simply not following. Again, you aren't debating you are just prostylizing.

I am not here to debate. I am here to spread the gospel.


Here you are again picking peices of what I say but not getting the meaning of it. You're picking and choosing what would work best to say more of what you want to say, more of what you think will "turn people to god". I can't debate with you if you're being a politician.

Again, I am not here to debate. This isn't about debating. This is about winning people to Christ. btw, politicans and christianity don't mix. I am nothere for politics(as you seem to think).

God will hold an individual accoutnable according to what they know and what they have been taught and their level of maturity to understand right from wrong. Everyone who is old enough would have some degree of knowledge towards right and wrong. Noentheless, you obviously would. You have the intelligence to post what your posting, you have enough knowledge to be held accoutable to God for how you live your life.
This is not about me. You say god will only hold somebody accountable for what they know yet your very own scripture disproves that. It and you say that the only way into heaven is through Jesus. If somebody doesn't know who Jesus is they can't go to heaven. Yet you're saying right now that god wont hold them accountable for what they didn't know but he will. So why is somebody who doesn't know any better going to hell?

God is a fair and just God. He would not send anyone to hell for the simple fact that the didn't know any better. Infants and young children who die prematurely, do not go to hell. Although there is no age of accountability in the bible, I know that God who is fair and just would not send those who do not know enough to hell if they die without knowing Jesus. When Jesus warned people to repent of sin, he didn't wanr children, he warned adults. He also said in Mark10:13-16, that we must humble ourselves as little children to inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

Also, mentally retarded people would go to Heaven as well. God would not hold them accountable for sin since they do not know any better.


He didn't do it out of fear, for God has nothing to fear. He is the Almighty. He did it because He couldn't let them carry on in their bad motives.
Bullshit.

That must be your favorite word eh?

You don't know their exact motives but based off of what they said they want to just expand themselves.

It's easy to see their exact motives. it says in vs.4 that they wanted to make a name for themselves. That is pure pride and rebellion against God. Their motives were wrong. They started building this to satisfy their vanity. They were trying to aproach God on their self-serving terms. When people approach God, it is important to approach Him in reverance and humility.


God does answer prayers for those who put their trust in Him. if you wanted to see your best friend again, God will make away if you trust in Him for that.
No. You again missed the entire point.

No, I did not miss your point. You mentioned that a best friend could be on the other side of the world speaking a different language. I told you that God can rectify that if you trust in Him.


Wrong again. Mistranslation can be the start of wars. Somebody saying one thing and another person translating that wrong can make it seem much worse than it was. Your analogy with a few people doesn't work, when an entire nation's diplomacy depends on this one translation and it fails, war begins.

You feel that I'm wrong over the fact that man's wickedness starts wars? Mistranslation isn't what will start a war. Your certainly wrong about that. Nations are not going to go to war over that. Wars are the result of greed, hatred, power, etc, but not over mistranslation.

J man is right. St. Augustine talks about the deaths of young children. He says that they will go to heaven, and I don't see why this shouldn't be so.
Again, remember that God is good and just. He is not programmed to follow a certain set of guidelines of who goes to heaven and who doesn't. He is flexible and will judge people individually. Remember, also, that He will forgive only those who repent and submit.

VilePagan, if you read the Bible you'll find, that God is omnipotent, if He truly was God he could do anything. He created the laws of science that govern this world. How else can you come about explaining the creation of the world?

Please don't say Big Bang. That would be ridiculous.

if you read the Bible you'll find, that God is omnipotent

Slight correction...if you read the Bible you'll find that it claims that God is omnipotent. Of course, just because the Bible claims this does not make it fact.

Originally posted by mad dog
Maybe you should go back and read your own post you did ask about HIM. I also did try to explain in my 1st post that the truth is in the eye of the beholder. Now pull the wad out of your arse and get over yourself.



Maybe you should go back to question {a} What proof would heneed to make him stop believing in God. Also part {b} does say his reaction.



Instead of jumping my arse maybe you should read my post............Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I know this post is old I have not read into the last couple of pages yet but I have to say Mad Dog. How retarded are you??? What is so difficult about the question that Loki is asking.

He clearly states that he was discussing this with his friend which obviously made him curious to what other also felt about the subject so he posted the question to you lot to answer. Why would he post a question on a forum to somebody in the room with his. As for asking him to take the wade out of his arse I think you need to take a look in the mirror. I have only read two of your posts and I already truly believe that you are a cock. This is not an image you should want to promote.

Read the question, Understand it, then choose weather to answer it or not. But don't question the reasoning for the question!!!

To ask a question for what ever reason is free will, And god gave us that so stop being such a fool!!

Originally posted by Messenger Truth
VilePagan, if you read the Bible you'll find, that God is omnipotent, if He truly was God he could do anything. He created the laws of science that govern this world.

Good answer. It isn't actually an answer to my post, but it does get you off the hook doesn't it...God can do anything.

How else can you come about explaining the creation of the world?

I can't explain the creation of the world and neither can you. The difference is that I'm willing to admit my lack of knowledge while you are not. Why do you believe man should have an explanation for everything? We aren't God after all, just mere mortals who are still looking for the answers.

Posted by STOpandthink
Please don't say Big Bang. That would be ridiculous.

Ridiculous? As ridiculous as getting all your questions answered by an ambiguously written 2000+ year-old book? A book that is still changing as man rewrites it? I don't think you have a proper grasp of the meaning of "ridiculous".

I am not here to debate. I am here to spread the gospel.
Then fuck off. This is a forum, this is a place to debate. I can't reply to anything you said since it was all pointless "praise god" crap. If you're here to do nothing but spam, then I think you should just leave.
Want to know why I'm not a christian? Because of dumbasses like you who can't even defend their "truth".

Originally posted by the J Man
Again, I am not here to debate. This isn't about debating. This is about winning people to Christ.


We should be able to ban people from the forum for this kind of bullshit. This is Spamming now.

Originally posted by STOpandthink

Look at Loki. He will never bow down to God. It doesn't matter if the evidence will be rubbed in His face. Unlucky for him, I don't have any evidence to rub into his face, otherwise he might have repented. Loki, I am truly and honestly feel sorry for you.



Unlucky for him, I don't have any evidence to rub into his face

This is my point!! You have no evidence, there is no proof, GOD is a 2000+ year old joke, Some guy or maybe a bunch of guys wanted Peace on Earth and made this up in order to get it thats all. In those times if you managed to blag that God spoke through you you were treated like royalty so no fu*king wonder so many people were saying it.

I went to the Funeral of my freind today who died last week at the age of 21, His parents made sure the ceremony had no religious ties, no hyms were sung, no prayers were spoken. Andy was a brilliant, amazing person and he will live forever NOT in some thought up, imagined Heaven, but in the memories of those who knew and loved him.

Get a fu*king grip on yourself and wake up from this dream you have that maybe your two bit life will mean something when you die. IF you dont mean anything now it sure as hell wont mean anything when you die.

Dont ever feel sorry for me, im not the one lost in some coma like dillusion. I feel sorry for your children when you have them, No child should have to deal with this 24/7. May the laws of nature make you impotent.

I really shouldnt get like this and Ill just hate myself for being a prick and getting so pissed off, but I cant stop myself for hating you and Religion for taking away those weak minded people and feeding them this shit.

Sorry to the other AllForums members for the rant.

It just amazes me that people continue to buy into this superstitious nonsence about god. I pity their insecurity that they NEED to believe in a life after death. I pity their inability to think of themselfs as a part of humanity but would rather think of themselfs as a playtoy put here by some higher being with a need to be worshipped.

They must be extrememly insecure in themselves and have a terrible emptyness inside to actually buy into this crap in an effort to feel a part of something.

English Pride:But don't question the reasoning for the question!!!

What?! Sometimes one has to show people that their questions are retarded. (though I don't know what question he was reffering to. I have no particular question in mind)
Lokideviluk:Some guy or maybe a bunch of guys wanted Peace on Earth and made this up in order to get it thats all.
Please! You can't be serious! Do you really think that a couple of men could write the Bible? Well, try again. This book is deeper than you can imagine, a person or persons, especially at that time, would not be able to come up with that stuff.
Andy was a brilliant, amazing person and he will live forever NOT in some thought up, imagined Heaven
I am sorry to hear about your friend. But I want to point out that "he will not live", but the memory of him will. And not "forever", but for some time.
I feel sorry for your children when you have them,
Well, I have good news for you. I am not planning to marry.
Echo2: I pity their insecurity that they NEED to believe in a life after death.
We don't NEED to believe in life after death. Before Christ many thought that there will be no afterlife, yet they still believed.
I pity their inability to think of themselfs as a part of humanity but would rather think of themselfs as a playtoy put here by some higher being with a need to be worshipped.
What ignorance! We are not playtoys for God, we are His children. Do you "play" with your children (or would you)? Hopefully not. God doesn't NEED us to worship Him, He doesn't need anything.
Also, we are part of humanity. Why wouldn't we be? We are humans just like everybody else.
And, we simply realize that we are weak and unstable. You can't build a foundation on an unstable ground. That would be foolishness. Instead, God provides a "rock" for us to build on. You, on the other hand, put your faith in yourself, you, apparently, think that you can do well without God. Well, let me tell you something, you can. But that "well" is a veil that you put over your face. When you will die, this veil will be removed, and you will see the truth. I just pray that you will make the right choice then.

Please! You can't be serious! Do you really think that a couple of men could write the Bible? Well, try again. This book is deeper than you can imagine, a person or persons, especially at that time, would not be able to come up with that stuff.

Of course a couple of men could have written the Bible. I hope your arguement wasn't hanging on the misconception that they could not have. It could have even been written by one person, ESPECIALLY at that time...what else was there to do than use their imaginations to come up with stories about how life began. Why do you think all these stories came up then and not now (the Koran, the Bible, Greek Mythology)? By the way, do you beleive the Illiad is true?

Well, I have good news for you. I am not planning to marry.

Huh? Who mentioned marriage? He mentioned children...it would've made sense if you responded "I am not planning to have sex", but not being married won't prevent conception...Look at God, he wasn't married and look who he knocked up.

Originally posted by dnamertz
Of course a couple of men could have written the Bible. I hope your arguement wasn't hanging on the misconception that they could not have. It could have even been written by one person, ESPECIALLY at that time...what else was there to do than use their imaginations to come up with stories about how life began.

Yeah okay...what did this individual do...sit down for 10 years at his miraculous word processor and fire it out?

Yeah okay...what did this individual do...sit down for 10 years at his miraculous word processor and fire it out?

There is something you might not be aware of...its called writing. One person, or a couple, could easily do that in much less than a lifetime. MANY people have written longer and more imaginative stuff than the Bible before computers existed.

Originally posted by dnamertz
There is something you might not be aware of...its called writing. One person, or a couple, could easily do that in much less than a lifetime. MANY people have written longer and more imaginative stuff than the Bible before computers existed.

Well if you could do that in a life time more power to you. The script used in those days was extremely tedious. Not to mention no Bics.

From what you have said I highly doubt you have done much analysis of the bible from a literary standpoint. But I could be entirely wrong.

The writing styles are completely different. If you want to get into an analysis of the different styles and the literary implications therein I certainly will.

Name some of those MANY authors which you would term superior and cite your reason for their superiority. And which genre are you going to start with. Fiction I would presume?

dnamertz:
There is something you might not be aware of...its called writing. One person, or a couple, could easily do that in much less than a lifetime. MANY people have written longer and more imaginative stuff than the Bible before computers existed.
This is ridiculous. It's not about the story. I would believe if that some people made up a very long story. Look at Greek gods. All of them have stories, all together, probably, longer than the Bible. But I am not talking about the "outside story appearance." I am talking about the core of the Bible, the message, and all the little details that add up and seem almost magical. The Book is packed with information, all supporting the same claim, all for the glory of God. Nobody could have made all that up. No one.
Huh? Who mentioned marriage? He mentioned children...
Like a normal Christian person, I am not planning to have sex outside of marriage. I thought that would be obvious.

Hey Loki, Seems like a simple ?? to anwser, but in all actuality its extremely difficult, especially for a christian. You see you are asking them to step outside of there faith and examine what may be possible, but what we really feel is impossibe. That said my anwser to A. I would need for someone to disprove the bible completley, to show and prove to me that it was all a hoax, I would need someone to show me how all the bible prophesies that came true, really didn't and it was just a coincidence. I would need for someone to show me jesus's buried remains, and prove to me that he was not ressurected. I would need someone to explain to me why if the dicipleles made up the fact that they saw him after he was ressurrected, why they made it up, and what they had to gain by doing so. Was it the fame and fortune they all recieved. OOPS i forgot none of them recieved that. I believe what they did recieve was beatings, stonings jail death, all for a cause that some say does't exsist. Why would they go through all that is beyond me. I guess if all that were shown to me it might get me thinking.

the anwser to B, if this proof was theoretically provided for me. I would have to say welll done, boy they really fooled me. I would say wow, they have tricked millions all in honor of a false god, I would say what amazing fosight the man that made all this stuff up had.

But honestly i dont think it will or can be done. So Thank God I am still going to keep believing what I do. I will also as always keep an open mind , and as always keep studing the word of the bible, for it is what i beleieve to be true.

Good luck with being the way you are, as I have read you will never bow to Christ or believe in him, But thats part of prophesiy also those who turn from god, and have a hardened heart.

Again Great ?????? hope I anwsered them ok

Great answer, majormax. But you just wait and see how they will tear it up.

This is a "VERY" active forum, I love it! I usually end up waiting for days to get one response. >.<

Ok.... for starters....

Slight correction...if you read the Bible you'll find that it claims that God is omnipotent. Of course, just because the Bible claims this does not make it fact.

WTH? The Bible claims His omnipotence, try reading before you go off preaching what you don't believe...
Scriptural References:
"Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing. Job 42: 1-2
"...and there is nothing too hard for thee." Jeremiah 32:17
"But Jesus beheld them , and said unto them, With men this is imposible; but with God all things are possible." Matt. 19:26
"...for the Lord God ---omnipotent--- reigneth." Rev. 19:6

Hmm, that last one, it uses the exact word doesn't it? XD

===

This is my point!! You have no evidence, there is no proof, GOD is a 2000+ year old joke,...

As ridiculous as getting all your questions answered by an ambiguously written 2000+ year-old book?

Yes actually, a 2000 year old book, hmm, how many books have been preserved and lasted so long? Ok, there is quite a few but not an extreme amount! How many books have survived such a test of time? The Bible was persecuted by many everywhere. Look at history, how many people have prosecuted believers and Bible owners? How many Bibles have been taken and burned? Surely this book is worth a look at after surviving so much persecution. ^_^


"...but in the memories of those who knew and loved him."

"I pity their inability to think of themselfs as a part of humanity..."

If we are going to evolve beyond some organs and become extremely advanced, and humanity really is all there is, then wouldn't this man be forgotten eventually? Remember that great aztec warrior, What's-his-name? History doesn't last very long either. So what is life's goal? What in the world are we supposed to do? Advance until the sun burns out? Or how about until we consume all the non-renewable resources? We'll evolve duh! We'll just start "poo"-ing (nicest way I can put it) oil, petroleum, and we'll be able to control the earth's distance from the sun, so that we never burn nor freeze to death. I mean, we all eventually die right, and so does the earth, right? So whats the stinking point in life without a creator?! Hmm, yes lets advance science and... etc... Yeah that sounds just peachy, leme just call all my friends and family, "Hey guys guess what? Lifes pointless, everyone in the world will stop existence eventually and we'll all die and life will cease, SO lets all go commit suicide to end this stupid existence!" FEH! The Bible has many translations, some translations today are far worse than some of the older versions, but the Bible is still an amazing piece of literature to this very day! If there was a God, would He let His Word die so quickly? Would so many people sacrifice themselves through persecution because of their faith in Him and His Word? Wycliffe and his followers died even before the great persecution began, all of them burned at the stake along with their Bibles. I mean this is a book translated into over 2009 languages and over 6.1 billion copies printed in less than 200 years! Isn't it worth at least one looking over?!?!?
Try thinking before you start arguing about the unthinkable...




"I just pray that you will make the right choice then."


Sad to say, most translations show that those who die and never chose to believe, are supposed to suffer eternally. =O


While I don't condone this myself, as it is just as hard for me to try to picture death as it is to picture mass eternal suffering. Who would allow this? I don't know if people really will suffer eternally, but I sincerely hope not.

Oh, and MajorMax, interesting answer :D

But, if you read the Bible extensively, you will see that everyone will bow before Him and confess that He is Lord:
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." Isaiah 45:23

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things IN heaven, and things IN earth, and things UNDER the earth." Phill. 2:10 ^_^

Originally posted by Messenger Truth
I mean, we all eventually die right, and so does the earth, right? So whats the stinking point in life without a creator?!

This is the point of all religious people, They simply must have some higher purpose to their lives. If you all need this now, it stands to reason those that lived in the time of the bible being written needed it then.

And since every single person misread what i wrote ill state it again. I said he would live forever in the memories of those who loved him, family and freinds. When they die yes no doubt he will dissapear but then without sounding harsh... so what? I really dont give a shit if the memory of me lasts a couple of years after i die, im not going to be around to care about it.

Originally posted by Messenger Truth
"Hey guys guess what? Lifes pointless, everyone in the world will stop existence eventually and we'll all die and life will cease, SO lets all go commit suicide to end this stupid existence!"

Once again a typical statement from the religious fundies. My wording of that would be "Hey guys guess what? We will all die eventually so lets make the most of our time here and enjoy all the years we have to our fullest"

To actually say "go commit suicide" just because youll die eventually is the most pointless retarded thing to say.

Originally posted by majormax
Hey Loki, Seems like a simple ?? to anwser, but in all actuality its extremely difficult, especially for a christian. You see you are asking them to step outside of there faith and examine what may be possible, but what we really feel is impossibe. That said my anwser to A. I would need for someone to disprove the bible completley, to show and prove to me that it was all a hoax, I would need someone to show me how all the bible prophesies that came true, really didn't and it was just a coincidence. I would need for someone to show me jesus's buried remains, and prove to me that he was not ressurected. I would need someone to explain to me why if the dicipleles made up the fact that they saw him after he was ressurrected, why they made it up, and what they had to gain by doing so. Was it the fame and fortune they all recieved. OOPS i forgot none of them recieved that. I believe what they did recieve was beatings, stonings jail death, all for a cause that some say does't exsist. Why would they go through all that is beyond me. I guess if all that were shown to me it might get me thinking.

the anwser to B, if this proof was theoretically provided for me. I would have to say welll done, boy they really fooled me. I would say wow, they have tricked millions all in honor of a false god, I would say what amazing fosight the man that made all this stuff up had.

But honestly i dont think it will or can be done. So Thank God I am still going to keep believing what I do. I will also as always keep an open mind , and as always keep studing the word of the bible, for it is what i beleieve to be true.

Good luck with being the way you are, as I have read you will never bow to Christ or believe in him, But thats part of prophesiy also those who turn from god, and have a hardened heart.

Again Great ?????? hope I anwsered them ok

Nice answer Major...::salutes:: :)

Originally posted by ~Sal~
From what you have said I highly doubt you have done much analysis of the bible from a literary standpoint. But I could be entirely wrong.

The writing styles are completely different. If you want to get into an analysis of the different styles and the literary implications therein I certainly will.

Name some of those MANY authors which you would term superior and cite your reason for their superiority. And which genre are you going to start with. Fiction I would presume?

Hello Sal, I'm no expert on literature, but there are several examples of pre-biblical literature that rival the Bible in depth and complexity. A few examples would be The Epic of Gilgamesh, which incidentally contains the same (or amazingly similar) story of the flood that is found in the Bible, the Vedic "scriptures" "The Ramayana, and The Mahabarata.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Hello Sal, I'm no expert on literature, but there are several examples of pre-biblical literature that rival the Bible in depth and complexity. A few examples would be The Epic of Gilgamesh, which incidentally contains the same (or amazingly similar) story of the flood that is found in the Bible, the Vedic "scriptures" "The Ramayana, and The Mahabarata.

Thanks for the references. I will do a search. I have never heard of Gilgamesh and if there are stories in there similar to the flood that would be fascinating in the extreme especially if it predates the bible.

Was the book written by one person though? I just find that claim by dnamertz to be ludicrous beyond belief. The rate of literacy in those days was almost zero and writing was such a laborious task it would take monks centuries later ages and ages to transcribe just chapters of the bible. The parchment process alone in order to produce paper is overwhelming to think about.

However learning about these other writings is great. The Vedas are quite frankly waaaaay beyond me. Thanks Pagan, always something new to explore!

Well if you could do that in a life time more power to you. The script used in those days was extremely tedious. Not to mention no Bics.

The rate of literacy in those days was almost zero and writing was such a laborious task it would take monks centuries later ages and ages to transcribe just chapters of the bible. The parchment process alone in order to produce paper is overwhelming to think about.

Whether one person wrote it, or one-hundred, the amount of parchment would be the same. And, if almost no one could write then thats makes it less likely that many people were involved in authoring the Bible.

Sure the script was different and would take longer than using a Bic these days, but a lifetime is a LONG time. I just saw a program about the US Constitution, and the tedious caligraphy style writing that would take me hours or days to write a few sentences, was only taking the person doing the re-enactment minutes to write.

Name some of those MANY authors which you would term superior and cite your reason for their superiority. And which genre are you going to start with. Fiction I would presume?

I never said anyone was "superior". I said there are longer books and more imaginative stories. But I'll give you one name...Homer, along with those Vile mentioned.

Anyway, I'm not sure what part of that claim you are arguing. I doubt you are arguing against my claim that more imaginative stories were written, since you believe the Bible to be factual. So, if you are arguing the length part, then are you saying the Bible was A LOT longer than our current version? Has much of it been removed? My OT has around 1,500 pages. Lets say one person spent every day writing for 20 years (7,300 days). He would only have to write 1/5 of a page per day. I'm not claiming this happened, I'm just saying its possible that one person could do it, and even more possible that a couple people could do it since you said "Do you really think that a couple of men could write the Bible?"

WTH? The Bible claims His omnipotence, try reading before you go off preaching what you don't believe...
Scriptural References:
"Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing. Job 42: 1-2
"...and there is nothing too hard for thee." Jeremiah 32:17
"But Jesus beheld them , and said unto them, With men this is imposible; but with God all things are possible." Matt. 19:26
"...for the Lord God ---omnipotent--- reigneth." Rev. 19:6

Hmm, that last one, it uses the exact word doesn't it?

Why don't YOU try reading my post before you go off arguing with me and end up proving my point.

You said "if you read the Bible you'll find, that God is omnipotent" and I amended your statement to read "if you read the Bible you'll find that it claims that God is omnipotent". Now, thanks for posting those verses that make my amendment correct...all of those Bible verses CLAIM that God is omnipotent, but like I said, the Bible stating this does mean that "God is omnipotent" or that he exists.

You make no sense Loki! I mean if the world is going to end anyway, and life is going to cease to exist then why go on? Lets live our lives to the fullest? After we enjoy our wonderful lives and die on this beautiful world, we'll all just cease to exist. I can picture never existing right now. It's such a simple concept really, all the details of my wasted existence, all the joy I've found on this planet of ours, this wonderful paradise, will be gone. It makes so much sense now, life is meaningless! If we all evolved, and there was no divine creator then why are we the only ones that can reason the way we do? The only ones who can show such thought on topics such as this? The only ones who have morals and emotions? Did we evolve with a need for such ridiculous things to this evolutionary cycle?

As for the award for greatest ancient literature, my bet is on the literary work that:

-consists of 66 books
-was written by over 40 different authors
-was written over 1500 years, joining 40 generations
-was written in three different languages: Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic
-The authors range in greatly in occupation: a doctor, prophets, a farmer, a fisherman, a king, a philosopher, a scribe, a tax collector, a tentmaker, a statesman, a shepherd, a scholar, etc.
-It covers an overabundant # of topics: history, creation, biographies, morals, money, prophecy, genealogies, law, relationships, the events of the future, heaven, hell, punishment, nutrition, sin, suffering, God, man, salvation, and much more.

With all this you'd think it was enough to get your attention? every book deserves a looking at. Especially one with with such human diversity. There are over 24,000 handwritten copies of portions of the original manuscripts still in existence. There is only a 25 year gap between one (oldest) fragment of Scripture than the original writing. If we compare it to the Iliad (900BC) there is a 500 year gap between its oldest copy and the original. All of the Bible's original texts were copied by hand by scribes who would preserve them. It's one of the only books of its age to survive such persecution and has so many fulfilled prophecies.

No recently found manuscripts have ever contradicted earlier ones. You recall the dead sea scrolls (1947)? The Isaiah scroll found among them predates the previous earliest Isaiah manuscript by 1000 years, yet its exactly the same. 1/4 of the book deals with prophecy. Several Biblical prophecies were recorded hundreds of years before the event occurred. Approximately 3/4's of these recorded prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. The last quarter remains to be fulfilled as it deals with the future.

There are other ancient books that claim a 'god''s existence, but many are pale in comparison to the Bible.

The Koran (700AD) , has only one author, this increases the possibility of deception. Its also without the evidence of fulfilled prophecy and eyewitnesses of miracles and such things.

The Vedic Scriptures (date unknown: 1400BC - 500AD)
Denied by a few archaelogical findings.

The Three Baskets (Scriptures)
Several teachings are contradictory and critical thinking as well as personal evaluation is discouraged.

The Book of Mormon
No original manuscripts, claims that an angel took them home to heaven. The book is nothing more than a novel without historical, geographical, or archeological proof. As well as no fulfilled prophecies. The language it claims to have been written has no evident to have ever existed (Reformed Egyptian). The book claims to be written between 600BC and 421AD but the book contains extensive quotes from the KJV of the Bible (1611AD).

Those are only a few other ancient books.

I mean if the world is going to end anyway, and life is going to cease to exist then why go on?

This makes no sense.

Several Biblical prophecies were recorded hundreds of years before the event occurred. Approximately 3/4's of these recorded prophecies have been accurately fulfilled.

Name these specific events and give me the quotes from the Bible that predicted them.

Originally posted by dnamertz
Whether one person wrote it, or one-hundred, the amount of parchment would be the same. And, if almost no one could write then thats makes it less likely that many people were involved in authoring the Bible.

Sure the script was different and would take longer than using a Bic these days, but a lifetime is a LONG time. I just saw a program about the US Constitution, and the tedious caligraphy style writing that would take me hours or days to write a few sentences, was only taking the person doing the re-enactment minutes to write.



I never said anyone was "superior". I said there are longer books and more imaginative stories. But I'll give you one name...Homer, along with those Vile mentioned.

Anyway, I'm not sure what part of that claim you are arguing. I doubt you are arguing against my claim that more imaginative stories were written, since you believe the Bible to be factual. So, if you are arguing the length part, then are you saying the Bible was A LOT longer than our current version? Has much of it been removed? My OT has around 1,500 pages. Lets say one person spent every day writing for 20 years (7,300 days). He would only have to write 1/5 of a page per day. I'm not claiming this happened, I'm just saying its possible that one person could do it, and even more possible that a couple people could do it since you said "Do you really think that a couple of men could write the Bible?"

Yeah the amount of parchment would be the same, that we agree on.

So some very rich dude (would have to be rich since he was just gonna sit there and write fairy tales all day) sitting in some isolated cell had reams and reams of parchment. He spent his whole life just making up stuff, wrote it all down, called it The Bible and then did what with it? And his motive was????

IF almost no one could write? You're joking right????

Sorry Dnamertz I think your claim about one author is unfounded and utterly ridiculous . Many scholars, both believers and non-believers have studied the bible for centuries for one reason or another. Find one who would make such a claim because I have never EVER heard of such.

Where did you get the notion that I believe the bible to be factual? Define factual. I do not believe the bible should be taken literally. Are there facts contained therein...absolutely.

From a literary standpoint I still believe it to be the greatest composition of all time beating the IIliad and the Odyssey hands down. If you want to say Homer is more "imaginative" than the authors of the bible I have no problem with that for that comes down to literary judgement and personal perference. The existence of Homer per se has also been debated as you know. i also do not believe it to be as long as the bible but I will need to check on that.

So far you have not even begun to convince me that one author wrote all these books of the bible.

Sorry Dnamertz I think your claim about one author is unfounded and utterly ridiculous

So far you have not even begun to convince me that one author wrote all these books of the bible.

Can I ask you to stop replying to my posts if you're not gonna read and comprehend them correctly? I never claimed or tried to say that only one person did write the Bible, I was only making the point that it could be done by one person, in my opinion. So, I don't know what this one person's motive was or if he made it all up, or if he was some "rich dude", because I'm not claiming any of this. I believe it was probably written by multiple people.

IF almost no one could write? You're joking right????

Huh??? You said almost no one could write, I never disagreed.

Dnamertz, Its difficult to just go out and name them all, I don't exactly know all of the prophecies off the top of my head, simply ask for a certain time: future, recent, 1900's, during Jesus' time, after Jesus' time, or before His time. Which would you like? Maybe one of each?

Here is one fulfilled prophecy, sort of a food for thought. =D

Ezekiel 29:15
"…I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations."

In this verse, the prophet declares that Egypt would recover from a desolation (probably Babylon's attack about 2600 years ago), but that it would never again rule over any other nation. Until the time of Ezekiel, Egypt had been a world power for many centuries, dominating several nations (Israel included). But for most of these past 2500 years, Egypt has been controlled by foreign powers, including the Romans, the Ottomans and the Europeans. Today, Egypt is once again an independent nation. 1948, 1967, and 1973, each of these years was a time when Egypt tried to conquer Israel but was unsuccessful each time, Even though Egypt is 10 times larger than Israel. Egypt today, in many ways, is a very impressive nation. But since the time of Ezekiel, it no longer rules over other nations. ^_^

Yeh but England used to rule a bunch of different places and no longer does, Im pretty sure the Romans had a good slice of the globe and no longer do (partly to them not existing granted). The point im making is that they are too vague. God knew all the details... all of them, names places etc down the the full name & address of the current ruler of that nation yet chose to have his servent give some cryptic message to get his point across why?

Why not say "Egypt in 2600 will repair itself from a Babylon attack and no longer rule over the nations it once did" That no one could argue with since its to the point and precise on exactly what he was on about.

I agree with Loki...that's kind of vague.

MessengerTruth, give me some examples from the 1900's since those will be the easiest to verify.

One more thing about the POSSIBILITY that the Bible could have been written by one person..."remember that nothing is impossible with God".

Originally posted by dnamertz
One more thing about the POSSIBILITY that the Bible could have been written by one person..."remember that nothing is impossible with God".

Okay, ya gave me my laugh for the day...:D Now if he would just let me fly.....

Okay, ya gave me my laugh for the day... Now if he would just let me fly.....

Hey, don't give me credit for the laugh. The "remember that nothing is impossible with God" quote is not mine, it comes from at least one of the believers on this board...but you're right, it is a silly quote.