In a new personal goal of mine to better understand the other side of the religious world....I am trying to understand the lifestyles of athiests/agnostics.

I know the answer to this question for a few of the members....but I'm going to ask it and open this topic up for discussion.

Do you feel it offensive to be prayed for? (Even if it's by someone wanting what they feel is the best for you.))

Nothing offensive about being prayed for.

I have no doubt in the power of prayer.

Ok...

So what if they were praying that you come to accept Heaven, Christ, and all the glory therein?

Would you be ok with that?

I don't care one way or the other if people pray for me. It's their time to waste. What I find offensive is that they feel the need to tell me they are praying for me. It suggests that there is something wrong with me and prayer will help. It is extremely offensive.

If they were truly sincere in their desire to improve me or my life through their prayer they would do it quietly and without announcing it.

It is kinda like good deeds. It is tacky to do a good deed and then anounce to the world that you are doing it. The best reward for good deeds isn't in the numbers of people who know you did it but in the feeling it gives you to have done it.

Anonomous deeds are the best. They really lift your spirit and make you feel good. Announced deeds are more or less a cry for attention or an attempt to show people how concerned they are about someone or something. Very Self-seeking and egotistical.

Even as a religious person, it's always sort of bugged me. And I honestly don't know why. On the rare occassion when someone has told me that they're praying that I'll come around to believing in their particular brand of Christianity, that really bothers me, and I know why - because they can't prove that theirs is any better than mine.

As a side note, I've never believed that a lot of people praying about something brings better results than only one person praying for something.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Ok...

So what if they were praying that you come to accept Heaven, Christ, and all the glory therein?

Would you be ok with that?

If it makes you happy feel free. Makes no difference to me. Your prayers on this will go unanswered....it's your time you are wasting, not mine.

Originally posted by DrewM
If it makes you happy feel free. Makes no difference to me. Your prayers on this will go unanswered....it's your time you are wasting, not mine.

How do you know this?

Although you may truly feel the opposite, there's no way to know for sure what your future will bring.

Things change.

they won't change on that

Again....you have no way of knowing your future.

God could easily change your mind.

Yes, and you could also realise that you are living in a fantasy world.

If God could 'easily' change my mind - why doesn't he just go ahead and do it - why the delay?

You may believe that your god can change my mind. However, I don't even believe your god exists, it would be imposible for a non existant creature to change what I believe.

jerejere - Understand that I don't believe in your religious beliefs. To me they are the creation of a primitive peoples need to explain their existance. They are superstition and have no basis in reality. I feel just as strong in what I believe as you probubly do about believing in god.

If you feel the need to pray for me and it makes you feel good then go for it.

For the record, if from some supernatural, 6th dimensional crack in the universe god did apear, I would condemn him for his hypocritical treatment of humans, his waste of life, his inaction and his insepant need to be worshiped. I have said before that if this god exists, he is not someone I want to spend eternity with. He is evil, insincere and egocentrical.

Originally posted by Echo2
For the record, if from some supernatural, 6th dimensional crack in the universe god did apear, I would condemn him for his hypocritical treatment of humans, his waste of life, his inaction and his insepant need to be worshiped. I have said before that if this god exists, he is not someone I want to spend eternity with. He is evil, insincere and egocentrical.

talk about biting the hand that feeds you....he DID create you after all lol.

Heeeeey you can pray for me no problem. So can anyone else. Most Christians I know would not label me Christian. I think "everything" in the universe is merely energy. There is good and bad. Someone praying for me and wishing I would view God their way is still a positive force. Go for it!

I think many people find it offensive because they feel that someone praying for them implies their belief system is wrong and therefore lends superiority to the believer in some bizarre way. People get defensive about that.

I don't know what kind of Christian you are. And there's no need to announce it unless you choose. Other than Mormon or Jehovah's Witness I don't think any church does a body count on "saved" souls. So if you are true to your faith... why the need to tell another you are praying for them? Or do you feel a need to announce it? Not judging just curious.

The white male God that Jere describes must have created us as pets. His heaven that he has been creating for so long - getting the contractors in to lay down the gold streets, is just a nicer jar to keep his pets in. The ones that agree to worship him get that jar. The ones that don't get burned in an incinerator. Talk about egocentric.

Sounds nuts? sure - probably sounds nuts to God also, because certainly the nature of God is nothing like that at all.

I dont really mind general prayer, safety, good health, ect. But i am a tad upset when people pray for others to make a certain choice, such as accepting christianity. I kinda feel it takes the power out of my hands and puts it into someone elses.

I believe there is power in prayer!
Prayer is merely another method of contacting the innerspirit to set things in motion. I believe the innerspirit is connected to all that is. Prayer is sort of like starting a ripple in a pond.

Jere, the Bible says to enter your closet to pray-not to pray outloud for others to hear.
To me my closet is my mind.
Have you ever wanted something so bad that you could think of nothing else? It was on your mind constantly. Then one day when you received this thing you wanted it probably came from a direction that you least expected. This is an example of the power of the mind, set in motion to accomplish that which you want.
Humans have a vast storehouse of untapped resources if enough time is spent learning ones capabilities. No religious proceedure is needed, it is a natural occurance.
You can truely move mountains if you hold the key of knowledge.

I don't understand why - but I have seen that to be true in my life.

Whatever I want I seem to get eventually - all I have to do is believe it will come. Once this happens a few times - you begin to have a strong faith in it.

It takes a lot of the worry out of life - because you can know that the right things will happen all on their own. Coincidences occur and opportunities open up. It's actually quite pleasant to see it happen. By this I don't mean things come handed on a plate - you still have to work for what you want to create, but things always just seem to fall into place if you expect them to.

I know people that go from one crisis to the next & it always makes me wonder 'what is going on in their mind?'

Yes, I have seen people like that also.
It is negative thinking, which sends the wrong signals to the subconcious.
The more you dwell on negative things, the more negative things happen.

Thoughts and prayers are orders to the subconcious.
It can not hear, smell, see, etc. It has only your thoughts to respond to. Try to keep them positive.

One thing I have noticed though is that the more your life becomes free of crisis - the less creative you become. This is kind of a double edged sword. My feeling on that is that there is an answer there that I do not understand yet.

Only forced creativity would be missing.
I sometime get too comfortable and something comes along to give me a kick in the pants.
I have to have stimulation. Believe it or not these posts sometimes help me to be creative.

I have thought about this quite a bit. I think creativity is simply movement (not physical movement). Actually a bit more than that - it is the honest expression of movement. Increased actualization tempers swings of movement or at least seems to.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Do you feel it offensive to be prayed for? (Even if it's by someone wanting what they feel is the best for you.))

Are you praying for better health and a way of life for someone?

Are you praying that they come around to your way of thinking?

Last- can I pray for you, to find the truth and not a mans made religion?{ouch}

{1} pray all you want, it is nothing but good intention

{2}Why is my way of thinking wrong very bold of you to think you are better then me or my way of thought.

{3}I threw this in so you could see how it feels. Praying is good when it is used for the right things. Telling someone they should think like you is not a good intention, it is telling them that they're not smart enough to figure things out, it is a form of control.

Yeah - but he's on a mission from God, so that trumps everything.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I believe there is power in prayer!
Prayer is merely another method of contacting the innerspirit to set things in motion. I believe the innerspirit is connected to all that is. Prayer is sort of like starting a ripple in a pond.

Prayer is not a one way communication, Dan.

Prayer is talking WITH God.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Jere, the Bible says to enter your closet to pray-not to pray outloud for others to hear.

That doesnt mean that all prayer is silent. That passage is more talking to those who would stand on the street corners just so they would be heard.

Prayer through any means is fine....as long as its between yourself and God.

Besides, I think Heaven will be a noisy place. [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by mad dog
Are you praying for better health and a way of life for someone?

Are you praying that they come around to your way of thinking?

Last- can I pray for you, to find the truth and not a mans made religion?{ouch}

{1} pray all you want, it is nothing but good intention

{2}Why is my way of thinking wrong very bold of you to think you are better then me or my way of thought.

{3}I threw this in so you could see how it feels. Praying is good when it is used for the right things. Telling someone they should think like you is not a good intention, it is telling them that they're not smart enough to figure things out, it is a form of control.

Mad Dog,

I dont know why you had such a sarcastic tone with the "ouch" comment and all.

If you want to pray for me, by all means, be my guest. I appreciate your concern.

Originally posted by DrewM
Yeah - but he's on a mission from God, so that trumps everything.

That particular comment is becoming a tad bit repitious. If you are going to sarcastically bad mouth by religion, switch it up a little.

Maybe it is tedious - but it's far less tedious than your robotic responses to everything. It's like you have no brain. You ignore all valid argument & just repeat silly mantra's back - not a single thing of what you say is original thought, it's just parrot fashion blurb from your church.

Whatever you think you know - it's only what somebody told you to believe. Tell me one single thing that is personally backing it up & I will show you how your beliefs do not back it up. Not that you will take any notice of course - you no longer have any ability to think for yourself.

Plus of course - your mission from God shouldn't be easy or it wouldn't be much of a mission. You seem to be already wimping out on it faced with a bit of sarcasm.

Originally posted by DrewM


I have no doubt in the power of prayer. [/B]

if you have no doubt in the power of prayer, than you obviously realize that God is real. prayer wouldn't work work banana's, if God wasn't real. if He wasn't real, people praying would be praying to mid air.

Originally posted by Echo2
What I find offensive is that they feel the need to tell me they are praying for me. It suggests that there is something wrong with me and prayer will help. It is extremely offensive.

If they were truly sincere in their desire to improve me or my life through their prayer they would do it quietly and without announcing it.

By telling you that they are praying for you, they are just showing you that they care about you. That's all. Their not trying to get attention or trying to get you to think highly of them. Just simply showing you that they are concerned about you.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


Prayer is not a one way communication, Dan.

Prayer is talking WITH God.



Excactly!





Besides, I think Heaven will be a noisy place.

Yes, there will be lot's of singing, prasie and worship and pure joy amongst all those that are there. I desire to see as many as possible there.

Originally posted by the J Man
if you have no doubt in the power of prayer, than you obviously realize that God is real. prayer wouldn't work work banana's, if God wasn't real. if He wasn't real, people praying would be praying to mid air.

illogical captain.

It doesn't follow that there has to be a God for prayer to work. Prayer could simply be tapping into our own personal power.

But, beyond that - I have never said I did not believe in God or a creator.

The only issue I have is with bigoted - holier than thou, our group is right, everybody else is going to hell yada yada.....

Originally posted by the J Man
Yes, there will be lot's of singing, prasie and worship and pure joy amongst all those that are there. I desire to see as many as possible there.

Kind of like girls scouts around the campfire singing kumbya?

If heaven is even closely like the type of things I have read on this board - then heaven sucks! - what a total let down boring place that would be. I'd be bored out of my mind - it would be worse than hell. That might be your wet dream but it sure aint mine. Funny how heaven looks exactly like what you get a kick out of.

Singing praise & worship for eternity - no thanks. I'd rather be in hell. Hell may suck too - but that heaven place - that would be insanity. You'd be on heavenly prozac within a week.

So I also take it in heaven you will have a physical body again - with vocal chords, eyes?

Originally posted by the J Man
if He wasn't real, people praying would be praying to mid air.
Holy logical thought, Batman! That actually makes sense!

Originally posted by DrewM



The only issue I have is with bigoted - holier than thou, our group is right, everybody else is going to hell yada yada..... [/B]

So anyone who takes a stand for what they know to be true is supposively bigoted and holier-than-thou? Yep, that is how things are these days. You tell people the truth rather than what they want to hear, that is whay they accuse you of. But hey, no-one here is intolerant towards christians right? ;)

No, taking a stand for what you believe in was not in my list of things I mentioned that I disagree with.

Read my list again - "bigoted - holier than thou, our group is right, everybody else is going to hell yada yada"

Thats what I disagree with, take as much of a stand as you want. It's not a case of tolerance - how can somebody be tolerant toward a group that say we are right and everybody else will burn in hell. Disagreement is not intolerance. Intolerance would be if I said you should be rounded up.

Originally posted by the J Man
So anyone who takes a stand for what they know to be true is supposively bigoted and holier-than-thou? Yep, that is how things are these days. You tell people the truth rather than what they want to hear, that is whay they accuse you of. But hey, no-one here is intolerant towards christians right? ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a difference in what a person KNOWS is the truth and what they BELIEVE is the truth.

Not speaking of you or anyone else here J Man, but there are people in the nut house accusing Doctors of not believing their truth that they know is correct.

"Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it; doubt all, but do not doubt yourself." - André Gide

Mark Twain wrote a satirical piece called "Letters from the Earth" that wasn't published until after his death (if you read the whole thing you'll understand why :D ).

I've taken the liberty of posting Letter II, which describes Satan's reaction to man's ideas about God and heaven. It is a humorous read, as are all the letters. In the letters Satan has visited the Earth and is writing back to Gabriel I believe, to tell him what he has found here on Earth.

Letter II

"I have told you nothing about man that is not true." You must pardon me if I repeat that remark now and then in these letters; I want you to take seriously the things I am telling you, and I feel that if I were in your place and you in mine, I should need that reminder from time to time, to keep my credulity from flagging.

For there is nothing about man that is not strange to an immortal. He looks at nothing as we look at it, his sense of proportion is quite different from ours, and his sense of values is so widely divergent from ours, that with all our large intellectual powers it is not likely that even the most gifted among us would ever be quite able to understand it.

For instance, take this sample: he has imagined a heaven, and has left entirely out of it the supremest of all his delights, the one ecstasy that stands first and foremost in the heart of every individual of his race -- and of ours -- sexual intercourse!

It is as if a lost and perishing person in a roasting desert should be told by a rescuer he might choose and have all longed-for things but one, and he should elect to leave out water!

His heaven is like himself: strange, interesting, astonishing, grotesque. I give you my word, it has not a single feature in it that he actually values. It consists -- utterly and entirely -- of diversions which he cares next to nothing about, here in the earth, yet is quite sure he will like them in heaven. Isn't it curious? Isn't it interesting? You must not think I am exaggerating, for it is not so. I will give you details.

Most men do not sing, most men cannot sing, most men will not stay when others are singing if it be continued more than two hours. Note that.

Only about two men in a hundred can play upon a musical instrument, and not four in a hundred have any wish to learn how. Set that down.

Many men pray, not many of them like to do it. A few pray long, the others make a short cut.

More men go to church than want to.

To forty-nine men in fifty the Sabbath Day is a dreary, dreary bore.

Of all the men in a church on a Sunday, two-thirds are tired when the service is half over, and the rest before it is finished.

The gladdest moment for all of them is when the preacher uplifts his hands for the benediction. You can hear the soft rustle of relief that sweeps the house, and you recognize that it is eloquent with gratitude.

All nations look down upon all other nations.

All nations dislike all other nations.

All white nations despise all colored nations, of whatever hue, and oppress them when they can.

White men will not associate with "niggers," nor marry them.

They will not allow them in their schools and churches.

All the world hates the Jew, and will not endure him except when he is rich.

I ask you to note all those particulars.

Further. All sane people detest noise.

All people, sane or insane, like to have variety in their life. Monotony quickly wearies them.

Every man, according to the mental equipment that has fallen to his share, exercises his intellect constantly, ceaselessly, and this exercise makes up a vast and valued and essential part of his life. The lowest intellect, like the highest, possesses a skill of some kind and takes a keen pleasure in testing it, proving it, perfecting it. The urchin who is his comrade's superior in games is as diligent and as enthusiastic in his practice as are the sculptor, the painter, the pianist, the mathematician and the rest. Not one of them could be happy if his talent were put under an interdict.

Now then, you have the facts. You know what the human race enjoys and what it doesn't enjoy. It has invented a heaven out of its own head, all by itself: guess what it is like! In fifteen hundred eternities you couldn't do it. The ablest mind known to you or me in fifty million aeons couldn't do it. Very well, I will tell you about it.

1. First of all, I recall to your attention the extraordinary fact with which I began. To wit, that the human being, like the immortals, naturally places sexual intercourse far and away above all other joys -- yet he has left it out of his heaven! The very thought of it excites him; opportunity sets him wild; in this state he will risk life, reputation, everything -- even his queer heaven itself -- to make good that opportunity and ride it to the overwhelming climax. From youth to middle age all men and all women prize copulation above all other pleasures combined, yet it is actually as I have said: it is not in their heaven; prayer takes its place.

They prize it thus highly; yet, like all their so-called "boons," it is a poor thing. At its very best and longest the act is brief beyond imagination -- the imagination of an immortal, I mean. In the matter of repetition the man is limited -- oh, quite beyond immortal conception. We who continue the act and its supremest ecstasies unbroken and without withdrawal for centuries, will never be able to understand or adequately pity the awful poverty of these people in that rich gift which, possessed as we possess it, makes all other possessions trivial and not worth the trouble of invoicing.

2. In man's heaven everybody sings! The man who did not sing on earth sings there; the man who could not sing on earth is able to do it there. The universal singing is not casual, not occasional, not relieved by intervals of quiet; it goes on, all day long, and every day, during a stretch of twelve hours. And everybody stays; whereas in the earth the place would be empty in two hours. The singing is of hymns alone. Nay, it is of one hymn alone. The words are always the same, in number they are only about a dozen, there is no rhyme, there is no poetry: "Hosannah, hosannah, hosannah, Lord God of Sabaoth, 'rah! 'rah! 'rah! siss! -- boom! ... a-a-ah!"

3. Meantime, every person is playing on a harp -- those millions and millions! -- whereas not more than twenty in the thousand of them could play an instrument in the earth, or ever wanted to.

Consider the deafening hurricane of sound -- millions and millions of voices screaming at once and millions and millions of harps gritting their teeth at the same time! I ask you: is it hideous, is it odious, is it horrible?

Consider further: it is a praise service; a service of compliment, of flattery, of adulation! Do you ask who it is that is willing to endure this strange compliment, this insane compliment; and who not only endures it, but likes it, enjoys it, requires if, commands it? Hold your breath!

It is God! This race's god, I mean. He sits on his throne, attended by his four and twenty elders and some other dignitaries pertaining to his court, and looks out over his miles and miles of tempestuous worshipers, and smiles, and purrs, and nods his satisfaction northward, eastward, southward; as quaint and nave a spectacle as has yet been imagined in this universe, I take it.

It is easy to see that the inventor of the heavens did not originate the idea, but copied it from the show-ceremonies of some sorry little sovereign State up in the back settlements of the Orient somewhere.

All sane white people hate noise; yet they have tranquilly accepted this kind of heaven -- without thinking, without reflection, without examination -- and they actually want to go to it! Profoundly devout old gray-headed men put in a large part of their time dreaming of the happy day when they will lay down the cares of this life and enter into the joys of that place. Yet you can see how unreal it is to them, and how little it takes a grip upon them as being fact, for they make no practical preparation for the great change: you never see one of them with a harp, you never hear one of them sing.

As you have seen, that singular show is a service of praise: praise by hymn, praise by prostration. It takes the place of "church." Now then, in the earth these people cannot stand much church -- an hour and a quarter is the limit, and they draw the line at once a week. That is to say, Sunday. One day in seven; and even then they do not look forward to it with longing. And so -- consider what their heaven provides for them: "church" that lasts forever, and a Sabbath that has no end! They quickly weary of this brief hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that eternal one; they dream of it, they talk about it, they think they think they are going to enjoy it -- with all their simple hearts they think they think they are going to be happy in it!

It is because they do not think at all; they only think they think. Whereas they can't think; not two human beings in ten thousand have anything to think with. And as to imagination -- oh, well, look at their heaven! They accept it, they approve it, they admire it. That gives you their intellectual measure.

4. The inventor of their heaven empties into it all the nations of the earth, in one common jumble. All are on an equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they have to be "brothers"; they have to mix together, pray together, harp together, Hosannah together -- whites, niggers, Jews, everybody -- there's no distinction. Here in the earth all nations hate each other, and every one of them hates the Jew. Yet every pious person adores that heaven and wants to get into it. He really does. And when he is in a holy rapture he thinks he thinks that if he were only there he would take all the populace to his heart, and hug, and hug, and hug!

He is a marvel -- man is! I would I knew who invented him.

5. Every man in the earth possesses some share of intellect, large or small; and be it large or be it small he takes pride in it. Also his heart swells at mention of the names of the majestic intellectual chiefs of his race, and he loves the tale of their splendid achievements. For he is of their blood, and in honoring themselves they have honored him. Lo, what the mind of man can do! he cries, and calls the roll of the illustrious of all ages; and points to the imperishable literatures they have given to the world, and the mechanical wonders they have invented, and the glories wherewith they have clothed science and the arts; and to them he uncovers as to kings, and gives to them the profoundest homage, and the sincerest, his exultant heart can furnish -- thus exalting intellect above all things else in the world, and enthroning it there under the arching skies in a supremacy unapproachable. And then he contrived a heaven that hasn't a rag of intellectuality in it anywhere!

Is it odd, is it curious, is it puzzling? It is exactly as I have said, incredible as it may sound. This sincere adorer of intellect and prodigal rewarder of its mighty services here in the earth has invented a religion and a heaven which pay no compliments to intellect, offer it no distinctions, fling it no largess: in fact, never even mention it.

By this time you will have noticed that the human being's heaven has been thought out and constructed upon an absolute definite plan; and that this plan is, that it shall contain, in labored detail, each and every imaginable thing that is repulsive to a man, and not a single thing he likes!

Very well, the further we proceed the more will this curious fact be apparent.

Make a note of it: in man's heaven there are no exercises for the intellect, nothing for it to live upon. It would rot there in a year -- rot and stink. Rot and stink -- and at that stage become holy. A blessed thing: for only the holy can stand the joys of that bedlam.

My apologies for the length of the post, but if you like it, "Letters from the earth" can be found in it's entirety at: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm

I've taken the liberty of posting Letter II, which describes Satan's reaction to man's ideas about God and heaven. It is a humorous read, as are all the letters. In the letters Satan has visited the Earth and is writing back to Gabriel I believe, to tell him what he has found here on Earth.

Excellent read!

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Mad Dog,

I dont know why you had such a sarcastic tone with the "ouch" comment and all.

The "ouch" comment was ment more towards look in the mirror{not ment to be sarcastic}. You say you want to pray for me to change my ways so I'll be Christian{like you}. I say I'll pray for you to drop your christian ways{be like me}. Now lets be real, saying this to a christian is a slap in the face. Now the above is only an example, and I'm just trying to show how it may feel to some. I would not waste my time to pray for a meaningless thing. You can worship, send money to, pray to whom ever you want. The higher power is there no matter what a person prays to or how they spend their time. I also believe prayer should be done for things that are important{feed the starving, help the sick, etc...} I don't think prayer should be used to convert others to a persons way of thinking. Wouldn't this be more like magic or witch craft?

If you want to pray for me, by all means, be my guest. I appreciate your concern.

As I said if I'm going to pray for you it would be that you have a happy healthy life. I do not want you to lose your faith, I would only like for you to remain open minded and don't fall into a cult. It is good that you believe just make sure that belief comes from within not from without....

What is all of this loud noise crap in heaven, If heaven is going to be loud then I'll stay right here where its quiet{in the woods}. Why does heaven look like mans idea? If heaven is real then wouldn't it be in Gods image? If your dead and in heaven then why would you have to keep kissing the feet of a God? You had to believe in God to get there, kissed his feet the whole time you where on earth. Now you get in heaven and you have to follow him/her around sounds more like a dictator ship then a heaven?

Originally posted by mad dog
What is all of this loud noise crap in heaven, If heaven is going to be loud then I'll stay right here where its quiet{in the woods}. Why does heaven look like mans idea? If heaven is real then wouldn't it be in Gods image? If your dead and in heaven then why would you have to keep kissing the feet of a God? You had to believe in God to get there, kissed his feet the whole time you where on earth. Now you get in heaven and you have to follow him/her around sounds more like a dictator ship then a heaven?

Well if it's classic rock the "noise" might not be so bad ;) I'll pass on the harps thingie though. From anything that I have read about "the other side" from supposed near death experiences, it sounds like we create our own experience, at least for a time. That would actually be very cool. Well maybe not for some... hehe!

We live in the first stage of heaven now, here on earth.
I shall try not to make it my hell.

Originally posted by mad dog
If your dead and in heaven then why would you have to keep kissing the feet of a God? You had to believe in God to get there, kissed his feet the whole time you where on earth. Now you get in heaven and you have to follow him/her around sounds more like a dictator ship then a heaven? [/B]

Who ever said that you'd have to kiss God's feet?

he DID create you after all

You mean I'm the son of God???

No, that can't be...my parents created me.

Originally posted by dnamertz
You mean I'm the son of God???

No, that can't be...my parents created me.

Really? Did they give you life? Did they give you soul? Did they breath your very existence into you?

No, God did.

Please...

What happens when we have space travel and meet other races (could be a while noted, but eventually) and we eventually learn their languages and speak to them, and explain that different to them we have an all powerful God no one has ever actually seen, and that if we bow down and embrace a guy weve never met before we will go to a special place that no one has ever seen, when we die.

They would probably laugh in our face and explain that they too had something similiar before, but that they moved on from such primitive forms of existance.

Or better yet they show us a book which is exceptionally similiar and sighing go on to explain it was some practical joke by a vastly superior race, where they chose about 50 odd planets and tricked the population into believing in such a feat.

My life is my own, All choices i make are my own and my responsibility, I will always seek to do right by those who ive wronged but in no way am i ever accountable to being i have never seen, heard or borne witness to in any shape or form, because quite simply its pure insanity.

Jere Without good old mom and dad you would not be here unless you are a science project :) Yes man plus woman doing the hole in one shot is how human life comes to be. So the answer to your question is that mom and pop are the creators of the next generation. This may have been Gods plan???? But the fact remains my kids are the creation of me and my wife. Without me and my wife my kids would not be here. Even if I had a different mate then it would result in different children. When kids start appearing out of thin air then we can say God did it.

Originally posted by mad dog
Jere Without good old mom and dad you would not be here unless you are a science project :) Yes man plus woman doing the hole in one shot is how human life comes to be. So the answer to your question is that mom and pop are the creators of the next generation. This may have been Gods plan???? But the fact remains my kids are the creation of me and my wife. Without me and my wife my kids would not be here. Even if I had a different mate then it would result in different children. When kids start appearing out of thin air then we can say God did it.

Amen

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Please...

What happens when we have space travel and meet other races (could be a while noted, but eventually) and we eventually learn their languages and speak to them, and explain that different to them we have an all powerful God no one has ever actually seen, and that if we bow down and embrace a guy weve never met before we will go to a special place that no one has ever seen, when we die.

They would probably laugh in our face and explain that they too had something similiar before, but that they moved on from such primitive forms of existance.

Or better yet they show us a book which is exceptionally similiar and sighing go on to explain it was some practical joke by a vastly superior race, where they chose about 50 odd planets and tricked the population into believing in such a feat.

My life is my own, All choices i make are my own and my responsibility, I will always seek to do right by those who ive wronged but in no way am i ever accountable to being i have never seen, heard or borne witness to in any shape or form, because quite simply its pure insanity.

I don't understand.

How would this disprove God?

Sadly nothing can disprove God to you, Your lost in your own fantasy of a double life.

Curiously Jere, What are you looking forward to in Heaven that you cant have here on earth?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk


Curiously Jere, What are you looking forward to in Heaven that you cant have here on earth? [/B]

In heaven, there will be no more wickedness, people hating each other, pain, suffering, hard work, scorching heat, freezing cold, etc. In heaven, it is perfect and evryone will be in true unity.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Sadly nothing can disprove God to you, Your lost in your own fantasy of a double life.

Curiously Jere, What are you looking forward to in Heaven that you cant have here on earth?

Very Simple question.

Fellowship with Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by the J Man
In heaven, there will be no more wickedness, people hating each other, pain, suffering, hard work, scorching heat, freezing cold, etc. In heaven, it is perfect and evryone will be in true unity.
--------------------------

Interesting, thats the way I describe my trip to Barbados to people.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Very Simple question.

Fellowship with Jesus Christ.
-----------------------------------------------------

What would you guys discuss for eternity, thats a long time.
Oh' yeh, my mistake, you would be at his feet worshiping, and singing loudly for eternity. Boring!

I think I'll be checking out the universe. Seeing the wonders. Maybe a little partying. Laughing at those poor bastards on earth still doing the 9 to 5.
Fun, fun, fun.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Very Simple question.

Fellowship with Jesus Christ.

So all you want is to be in the same place as Jesus and your happy.

I gotta agree with what will no doubt be a full clampdown on not commiting sin and following all the commandments, its gonna be a strict old place.

I think ill just catch the train to hell and join the other 99% of humanity.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mad dog
Jere Without good old mom and dad you would not be here unless you are a science project Yes man plus woman doing the hole in one shot is how human life comes to be. So the answer to your question is that mom and pop are the creators of the next generation. This may have been Gods plan???? But the fact remains my kids are the creation of me and my wife. Without me and my wife my kids would not be here. Even if I had a different mate then it would result in different children. When kids start appearing out of thin air then we can say God did it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tell it.

Tis past Jan 2nd, my maternal family gathered for our yearly meals and songs. My 86 year old Oma, my mom and her 2 brothers, their children (my cousins)and grandchildren. So all of my cousins, their kids, my kids, there were over 30 of us all together. At one point I looked at my Oma in amazement, (as I do every time I see her), that her and Opa simple immigrants, and her suffering most of her life with schizophrenia, have created this beautiful group of individuals. We sang every version of the twelve days of Christmas and there were different people for every part, everyone in my family gifted with a beautiful voice.

She's our proud Matriarch, and deserves all our respect, for when she is gone, she will continue to guide us, and live still in us, cause we are her.

Originally posted by the J Man
In heaven, there will be no more wickedness, people hating each other, pain, suffering, hard work, scorching heat, freezing cold, etc. In heaven, it is perfect and evryone will be in true unity.

Just out of curiosity, when you're in 'heaven' will it be an actual corporal existence, or will you be in the form of pure spirit??

If yours is to be an actual corporal existence, won't it require a lot of room?.....do the dearly departed eat or have sex in heaven?? ....if so, won't it be a huge logistical problem what with food and sanitation?

If it is to be a spirit existence, how does a spirit experience tactile pleasure?? how would a spirit have ever felt pain or cold anyway?? why do spirits need golden streets?? how can a male spirit be 'perfectly happy' if the female spirit they lived with on Earth is in Hell?? how does a spirit live in "unity" with a hundred million other spirits???

I am not sure of what I believe in to be honest and nobody really knows.

My 18 year cousin died on the 24/09 2004, He was my best mate all my life until then and it has hit our family hard. Since he has died quite a few things have happened in and around his house which I am finding hard to just dismiss.

My cousins dad (my uncle) is absolutely adamant that god does not exist and when you are dead you are dead but even he is finding it hard to find an explanation. I am not going to go through what has happened because it is long winded and I cant be bothered but it has put my mind in doubt.

I think what I believe is there is something after death. It does not have to be a god and it does not have to have anything to do with any religion as it could be something that nobody knows about or has heard of. The fact of the matter is nobody is ever going to know for sure till they are dead. I will continue to live my life how I want to and if on judgment day I am sent to hell then that is my choice. All my mates would be there anyway!!

RIP
LOUIS R CARTER
23-04-1985 TO 24-09-2005

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
-----------------------------------------------------

What would you guys discuss for eternity, thats a long time.
Oh' yeh, my mistake, you would be at his feet worshiping, and singing loudly for eternity. Boring!

After talking to you for a while, I could talk to anyone for an eternity and not get bored.:D

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
-----------------------------------------------------I think I'll be checking out the universe. Seeing the wonders. Maybe a little partying. Laughing at those poor bastards on earth still doing the 9 to 5.
Fun, fun, fun.


I believe you will be able to do such things in Heaven. I believe we will be able to explore. To laugh. To have fun, fun, fun.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
So all you want is to be in the same place as Jesus and your happy.

I gotta agree with what will no doubt be a full clampdown on not commiting sin and following all the commandments, its gonna be a strict old place.

I think ill just catch the train to hell and join the other 99% of humanity.

What a sad and selfish thing to say.

How?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
What a sad and selfish thing to say.

I agree with Lokideviluk - what he says makes perfect sense to me.

Nothing you say makes even the slightest bit of sense to me.

I just dont understand how someone could choose an eternity of Hell over an eternity in Heaven.

Your description of heaven sounds like hell. Can you understand that?

I've said this about 10 times but you seem to just keep on ignoring it. I'm 100% serious - what you have described as heaven sounds terrible. It sounds like a total hell.

Jere,

I like to drive fast every now and then, I like to have too much cake and the bad times make the good times better.

The idea that i have to work so hard to get something but when i get it, its so much more worth it makes me think that heaven will be a boring place. Not that i wouldnt mind the easy life and id say in my lifetime 60 odd years of the easy life would probably be managable but an eternity would just bore me.

But an eternity of living without Sin?

Personally Id honestly take being given the chance to live forever on this earth than Heaven. The possibilitys are endless, you could see the struggles of the world happen, watch the pain, the happiness etc and be able to interact with it.

Jere there is no way you can know what heaven is, what it looks like, or what it encompasses. For all we know Heaven could be Gods way of ressurection. If you lead a pure life, then your next life will be filled with happiness. On the flipside if you lead a bad one, your next life will be a poor and painful expereince.

Really? Did they give you life? Did they give you soul? Did they breath your very existence into you?
No, God did.

No, my parents did. Do I need to take a blood test to prove it to you?. If God had anything to do with it, then he owes my parents a lot of child support.

When kids start appearing out of thin air then we can say God did it.

Apparently, the only kid to appear out of thin air was Jesus...God can claim that one. Although, I always wonder if Joseph was pissed that Mary got impregnated by another "man".

Originally posted by dnamertz
No, my parents did. Do I need to take a blood test to prove it to you?. If God had anything to do with it, then he owes my parents a lot of child support.

:) Dna take this to court, Youd have the media coverage for months.



Originally posted by dnamertz
Apparently, the only kid to appear out of thin air was Jesus...God can claim that one. Although, I always wonder if Joseph was pissed that Mary got impregnated by another "man".

Well she didnt know that God was doing that to her. He just snuck in, did the deed and was gone by morning. Which i guess is Rape, but they hadnt coined the term at that point.

Originally posted by Freethinker
[B]Just out of curiosity, when you're in 'heaven' will it be an actual corporal existence, or will you be in the form of pure spirit??

If yours is to be an actual corporal existence, won't it require a lot of room?.....do the dearly departed eat or have sex in heaven?? ....if so, won't it be a huge logistical problem what with food and sanitation?


In Heaven, we won't be a mist of vapor floating around. We will have a body. Not sure where to find it in scripture, but God allowed the apostle Paul to see Heaven.

As fas as room is concerned, is there any limit to how much room is available? The univers goes on and on and on. Heaven is past the galaxies in the universe. There will never be a shortage of room there.

Those who are in Heaven do not need to eat. Eating isn't required as those who are there are immortal. God and angels do not need to eat. There is no reproduction in Heaven, therefore there is no sex. A matter of fact, in heaven, you won't be either male or female.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
--------------------------

Interesting, thats the way I describe my trip to Barbados to people.

Heaven will even be more wonderfful than that.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk


I think ill just catch the train to hell and join the other 99% of humanity. [/B]

I'm sure more than 1% of humanity will make it into Heaven.

Originally posted by the J Man
Those who are in Heaven do not need to eat. Eating isn't required as those who are there are immortal. God and angels do not need to eat. There is no reproduction in Heaven, therefore there is no sex. A matter of fact, in heaven, you won't be either male or female.

Where did you get all of these details?

Those who are in Heaven do not need to eat. Eating isn't required as those who are there are immortal. God and angels do not need to eat. There is no reproduction in Heaven, therefore there is no sex. A matter of fact, in heaven, you won't be either male or female.

WHAT?!?! No eating or sex...and you call that heaven???:)

It's hilarious reading these descriptions of heaven. What's even funnier is these people really know this stuff in precise detail.

What no hookers and donkies? bah.

Lets see, I've descriptions of.........
No sex.
No eating.
Noisy.
Constant praising.
Harps.
No males.
No females.

Seems more like a description of hell.
Still say that if I were to accept one of the religions of man I believe I would go for the 70 virgins.

Don't forget that everybody is a mindless Robot in heaven, because there is no longer any sin, which means by definition that free will has gone.

But hey you've got gold streets, lion cubs and Alpine mountains.

mmm. where have I seen this before? I know - in the Watchtower magazine those jehova freaks hand out. They go one better than precise detail - they even have artist impressions of heaven :)

Originally posted by DrewM
Your description of heaven sounds like hell. Can you understand that?

I've said this about 10 times but you seem to just keep on ignoring it. I'm 100% serious - what you have described as heaven sounds terrible. It sounds like a total hell.

That is so absurd. A perfect fellowship with Christ sounds worse than eternal flames in Hell.

Because what? Heaven to you would be boring? You'd rather burn than to be in paradise?

That is so rediculously STUPID.

It's like going to Hawaii and saying, well this beauty, serenity, and perfectness is no fun. I'm going to jump inside one of the volcanoes.

Its obsurdity.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
That is so absurd. A perfect fellowship with Christ sounds worse than eternal flames in Hell.

Because what? Heaven to you would be boring? You'd rather burn than to be in paradise?

That is so rediculously STUPID.

It's like going to Hawaii and saying, well this beauty, serenity, and perfectness is no fun. I'm going to jump inside one of the volcanoes.

Its obsurdity.

Well - it may sound stupid to you, but that's because you have this simpleton view of heaven and hell & also because either

A) You cannot understand what has been written, or
B) You choose to ignore what has been written, or
C) You are so brainwashed the concept of free will is alien to you.

It seems that a lot of other people do not have any problem understanding why your description of heaven sounds like hell.

Call me stupid - but don't send me to that heaven place you talk about, it sounds like eternal torment.

Why not re-read what has been written and try to understand why people have that view. It's totally valid & perfectly understandable.

Of course, I think your imagination of heaven is a joke - if heaven exists, it certainly won't be like how you imagine it to be. Gold streets - oh please...:rolleyes:

Jere you have no way AT ALL of knowing what heaven looks like. Seriously accept that.

Kind of reminds me of the advertisements in mail order magazines years ago when you could order beautiful land for so much down and so much a month. The adds had beautiful renditions of people at leasure and play. Beautiful streets and homes and waterfront property.
The suckers that bought later found out that they had bought Arizona desert land. :)

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Jere you have no way AT ALL of knowing what heaven looks like. Seriously accept that.

Oh really?

How about the word of God?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Oh really?

How about the word of God?

For starters - the Bible isn't meant to be taken so literally. It's flowery language written 2000 years to describe what is certainly not easily described. You choose to take it literally in some places and not in others.

Secondly - you say it's the word of God, several billion muslims don't agree. Somebody is wrong that is the one certain thing. But, of course you are not wrong, that is impossible, but how would you know? Because lets face it - you only believe what somebody told you to believe. Prove me wrong if you can.

Originally posted by DrewM
Prove me wrong if you can.

drew, it's hardly even worth it to ask these guys to prove things. they can't, so they won't. that's where the whole "faith" thing comes in, which i personally think is silly.

Originally posted by sputnik
drew, it's hardly even worth it to ask these guys to prove things. they can't, so they won't. that's where the whole "faith" thing comes in, which i personally think is silly.

Agreed

Originally posted by sputnik
drew, it's hardly even worth it to ask these guys to prove things. they can't, so they won't. that's where the whole "faith" thing comes in, which i personally think is silly.

It wouldn't be silly if they could share personal experience that backs up their belief. They are very light in that area.

There has to be some actual experience, even if that is the warm fuzzies or whatever. A book alone, without experience is far from enough. In fact a book on it's own is wood & ink.

I am sure that they do have experiences to back it up - answers to prayer, healings perhaps even etc.

What happens though is they take that as proof that their beliefs are correct with mutual exclusion to every other belief. Hey it must be true - I prayed for this and it worked out etc etc. Then they get hooked into a group and it's all over - there is no way out because their life, friends and everything revolves around it.

What they ignore is the overwhelming mountain of evidence that says - these type of experiences are not exclusive. They are far from exclusive. Give me a Christians story of a personal relationship with God and there is a Muslim one to match, a jewish one and a one from somebody who is not even religious. It's not an uncommon human experience. Fact - they ignore this because to accept it would destroy their world. They do have a defense mechanism - it's called claiming that every other experience is coming from Satan. Any intelligent person knows this is false.

The other point is - given that personal experience can be the only yardstick that counts (unless you just want to believe what somebody tells you - and some do). Personal experience is by it's nature personal experience, which means that a persons relationship with God can only be relevant in terms of individual experience. No two experiences, even of the same thing, are the same.

Originally posted by DrewM
[B]It wouldn't be silly if they could share personal experience that backs up their belief. They are very light in that area.



I am sure that they do have experiences to back it up - answers to prayer, healings perhaps even etc.

What happens though is they take that as proof that their beliefs are correct with mutual exclusion to every other belief. Hey it must be true - I prayed for this and it worked out etc etc. Then they get hooked into a group and it's all over - there is no way out because their life, friends and everything revolves around it.

Drew, I have testified before how God healed my lower back that was damaged. Meidcal attention was unable to do that but Godhealed me instantly. Also, the prophet of God that was doing the Monday night bible class on deliverance, knew exaclty what was wrong with my back even though he knew nothing about my situation and had never met me before that night.

Sputnik says that "it's hardly even worth it to ask these guys to prove things. they can't, so they won't.

I or no-one else can prove that God is real, but God can prove Himself real to you if you really want Him to. Man cannot prove the existrance of God, but God can prove His existance.


There are many who have been healed of infirmities and disease, many who have been delivered from addictions and bad habits, and many people's lives have been changed through the power of God. I myself have been delivered from anger, depression. God also speaks to some prophetically and gives them revelation.

All of that is done in the name of Jesus. I have never heard anyone healed or delivered from anything in the name of Allah or in the name of Buddha. I have never heard of anyone prophetically ministered to in the name of Allah or in the name of Buddha. Bondages are broken in the name of Jesus. He is the one who can destroy the yoke in someone's life.

If you were to attend a Holy Spirit filled church, you would see the power of God in that church. You would know for a fact that God is real. I have seen lot's of miracles and lot's of people testify about what God has miraculously doen for them.

When jesus was on earth He healed many and casted out demons in many. He gave His people that authority to cast out demons and to pray for the sick and they shall recover.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by the J Man



I or no-one else can prove that God is real, but God can prove Himself real to you if you really want Him to. Man cannot prove the existrance of God, but God can prove His existance.


There are many who have been healed of infirmities and disease, many who have been delivered from addictions and bad habits, and many people's lives have been changed through the power of God. I myself have been delivered from anger, depression. God also speaks to some prophetically and gives them revelation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, But what the heck has all this got to do with the Christian religion.
What we call miracles occur everyday without regards to what religion you belong to or even if you have a religion.
Miracles are not limited to the Christian religion, or any particular "chosen people."
If such things only happened to Christians you could not find a human being on earth that was not a Christian. Sorry, its just not that way in the real world. People in the real world are healed everyday. Unexplained thing happen to all sorts of people.

Can you show me any statistics that prove that only Christians are healed or helped thru tough times?????????

There are many who have been healed of infirmities and disease, many who have been delivered from addictions and bad habits, and many people's lives have been changed through the power of God.

Maybe God should get off his ass and cure things like cancer and diabetes.

Originally posted by dnamertz
Maybe God should get off his ass and cure things like cancer and diabetes.

You want God to heal you of something, it is up to you to turn to God wholeheartly. You must call upon the name of the Lord if you want Him to answer. If people reject the Lord, how do they expect to recieve miraculous healing and deliverance from Him?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by the J Man



Can you show me any statistics that prove that only Christians are healed or helped thru tough times?????????

That isn't what I said. God can have mercy on non-believers as well, but miracles are done through the Lord Jesus Christ. You show me when someone was healed miraculously, in any other name other than the name of Jesus.

You want God to heal you of something it is up to you to turn to God wholeheartly. You must call upon the name of the Lord if you want Him to answer. If people reject the Lord, how do they expect to recieve miraculous healing and deliverance from Him?

Maybe because he is supposed to be a caring God. If he has the capability of healing me and chooses not to just because I have not been convinced he exists, then he is a pathetic God. But if calling upon him is what it takes then here goes...."God, please cure my diabetes". Now I'm sure you'll say "that won't work, you have to really believe", but its not possible for me to just force myself to believe something is true when it doesn't appear to be...I can't say "I believe the sky is yellow" and really believe it when it appears to be blue. Besides, whether I really believe is irrelevant because thats a pathetic reason to not save someone's life.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the J Man
[B]That isn't what I said. God can have mercy on non-believers as well, but miracles are done through the Lord Jesus Christ. You show me when someone was healed miraculously, in any other name other than the name of Jesus.
---------------------------------------------
You need to read my post again.
Are you telling me that no one on earth receives mysterious healings or what we call miracles except Christians??

God can have mercy on non-believers as well

Uh wait a minute. I thought you also said the following:

If people reject the Lord, how do they expect to recieve miraculous healing and deliverance from Him?

Originally posted by dnamertz
Uh wait a minute. I thought you also said the following:

God can still have mercy on non-believers. But if yuo reject the Lord, then don't ever expect God to move miraculously. God does answer the prayers of tghe rigtheouss. If the righteouss pray for soemoen else even if that person isn't a believer, God can still move on that person's behalf. But unless you walk with God in truth and live by His rigtheousness, you can never experience God's best for your life. We are to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth. God will give His people the desire's of their heart if their heart is pure before Him.

Originally posted by the J Man
But if yuo reject the Lord, then don't ever expect God to move miraculously.

Wrong. You have absolutely nothing to back up that statement.

So why does God move in the lives of Muslims, Jews, etc and people that have no religious affiliation at all? Please explain this.

Originally posted by the J Man
God healed me instantly. Also, the prophet of God that was doing the Monday night bible class on deliverance, knew exaclty what was wrong with my back even though he knew nothing about my situation and had never met me before that night.

What if a devoutly religious person came to you JMan and said --"MY God healed MY back miraculously!"

Further, he tells you--

a) "My god is a giant turtle"

and

b) "My god has instructed me that all other gods are false, and do not exist".

Would you fully accept his story, as you are asking us to accept yours??

Why not?

The person is absolutely CERTAIN that the giant turtle god cured his back.....

...you can't possibly doubt the miraculous experience he's had..........can you??

Originally posted by Freethinker
What if a devoutly religious person came to you JMan and said --"MY God healed MY back miraculously!"

Further, he tells you--

a) "My god is a giant turtle"

and

b) "My god has instructed me that all other gods are false, and do not exist".

Would you fully accept his story, as you are asking us to accept yours??

Why not?

The person is absolutely CERTAIN that the giant turtle god cured his back.....

...you can't possibly doubt the miraculous experience he's had..........can you??

Very Good point!!!

Originally posted by Freethinker
a) "My god is a giant turtle"
You're very clever, young man, but I'm afraid it's turtles all the way down. ;)

( Explanation of this joke: http://members.tripod.com/TheoLarch/turtle.html )

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Freethinker


a) "My god is a giant turtle"
----------------------------------------

So size does matter. :)

But unless you walk with God in truth and live by His rigtheousness, you can never experience God's best for your life. We are to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth. God will give His people the desire's of their heart if their heart is pure before Him.

And screw all the rest of the people...let them suffer. Thats a real caring God you've got there.

You are still ignoring the fact that this is pretty pathetic to only heal the "believers". What if a doctor refused to save someone's life just because that person didn't believe in their profession.

God can still have mercy on non-believers. But if yuo reject the Lord, then don't ever expect God to move miraculously. God does answer the prayers of tghe rigtheouss. If the righteouss pray for soemoen else even if that person isn't a believer, God can still move on that person's behalf.


I never said I reject the Lord, I'm just not sure if he exists, but I did ask for his help in an earlier post to see if anything happens, and you as a "righteous" person can pray for me as well and lets see if I'm cured. Here is God's chance to heal me on either my behalf or yours, lets see if he does....I'll let you know as soon as I'm cured.

One more question, why did you choose to believe in God? Was it to take advantage of these "miracles"?