Originally posted by dnamertz
And screw all the rest of the people...let them suffer. Thats a real caring God you've got there.

You can turn to God if you want to. He will accept yuo the way you are. He loves you and cares for you, but you have to be willign to accept Him if you want His best for yuor life. If you choose to reject Him, you let yourself suffer rather than He letting you suffer.

You are still ignoring the fact that this is pretty pathetic to only heal the "believers".

God has healed unbelievers. I never said that he doesn't He often uses that to show Himself real to people. What I did say is that these miraculous healings are done in the name of Jesus. It is by His stripes that we are healed. He is the great physician. No other can do what he can do. All these miracles are done by no other than the Lord Himself. It isn't done in the name of Allah, nor the name of Buddha, but only the name of Jesus.





I never said I reject the Lord, I'm just not sure if he exists, but I did ask for his help in an earlier post to see if anything happens, and you as a "righteous" person can pray for me as well and lets see if I'm cured. Here is God's chance to heal me on either my behalf or yours, lets see if he does....I'll let you know as soon as I'm cured.

Do you believe that God can heal you? I know that he can if you allow Him to. Yes, I will pray for you, but it's important for you to believe.

One more question, why did you choose to believe in God? Was it to take advantage of these "miracles"?



Not at all. When i went to church, I did belive that He was real, but I wasn't sure since I never seen any conrete evidence of Him. My life was a real mess and the Lord straightened that out for me. He delivered me from that and gave me hope. He cleaned up the mess in my life and I turned my life to Him wholeheartedly.

he even healed me of lower back damage(I testifed about that in this forum before). He delivered me from depression, anger, low self worth. God has answered many prayers for me, but that is not why I worship Him. He loves me( and others) unconditionally and and has forgiven me of all my sins. Through His Word, He has taught me how to live righteously and has taught me wisdom.

He will accept yuo the way you are.

"The way I am" is a non-believer.

If you choose to reject Him, you let yourself suffer rather than He letting you suffer.

No, that will make him at least as responsible for my suffering as me, since he is ABLE to help me but chooses not to. Sure, my chances might be lower because he is arrogant and puts "believers" ahead of me...but thats one strike against him.

God has healed unbelievers. I never said that he doesn't

You did say "But if yuo reject the Lord, then don't ever expect God to move miraculously." and "If people reject the Lord, how do they expect to recieve miraculous healing and deliverance from Him?"

It isn't done in the name of Allah, nor the name of Buddha, but only the name of Jesus.

Really? How many Islamists or Buddists do you know? If thats true there should be clear evidence that Jesus believers live longer than anyone else...do you have this evidence, because I can't find it?

Do you believe that God can heal you? I know that he can if you allow Him to. Yes, I will pray for you, but it's important for you to believe.

I already explained that I can't just force myself to believe something that doesn't appear true. But, if he does exist then I accept him and am allowing him to heal me. How about this? If you and Him want to convince me of his existence, here is the chance...If I'm cured within the next year, I will definitely believe.

He loves me (and others) unconditionally and has forgiven me of all my sins.

See if you can figure out what is wrong with the above statement.

Originally posted by DrewM
It wouldn't be silly if they could share personal experience that backs up their belief. They are very light in that area.

There has to be some actual experience, even if that is the warm fuzzies or whatever. A book alone, without experience is far from enough. In fact a book on it's own is wood & ink.

I am sure that they do have experiences to back it up - answers to prayer, healings perhaps even etc.

What happens though is they take that as proof that their beliefs are correct with mutual exclusion to every other belief. Hey it must be true - I prayed for this and it worked out etc etc. Then they get hooked into a group and it's all over - there is no way out because their life, friends and everything revolves around it.

What they ignore is the overwhelming mountain of evidence that says - these type of experiences are not exclusive. They are far from exclusive. Give me a Christians story of a personal relationship with God and there is a Muslim one to match, a jewish one and a one from somebody who is not even religious. It's not an uncommon human experience. Fact - they ignore this because to accept it would destroy their world. They do have a defense mechanism - it's called claiming that every other experience is coming from Satan. Any intelligent person knows this is false.

The other point is - given that personal experience can be the only yardstick that counts (unless you just want to believe what somebody tells you - and some do). Personal experience is by it's nature personal experience, which means that a persons relationship with God can only be relevant in terms of individual experience. No two experiences, even of the same thing, are the same.


What a fence rider!!!!

You ask for personal expierence...and when you are given one, you just come up with some crap like, although that is interesting it doesnt prove God. Although that is nice, it's not great.

Why ask for something that you know isnt going to satisfy you?

Huh?

Obviously you either

A) Didn't read my post, or
B) Didn't understand it

Instead of blowing off posts with some off the wall comment - why don't you actually address the points made & give your opinion / thinking. Your response bears no relationship whatsoever to what I posted.

Originally posted by the J Man
All these miracles are done by no other than the Lord Himself. It isn't done in the name of Allah, nor the name of Buddha, but only the name of Jesus.

You know this how?

He loves me( and others) unconditionally and and has forgiven me of all my sins.

You say God loves people "unconditionally" but yet also believe that he will send people to hell if they don't believe as you do. Doesn't sound very unconditional to me.

It isnt as though he wants to send you to Hell.

He loves you unconditionally...yet you dont even believe in him? Why should he not send you to Hell? (not saying I hope this happens, lol)

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
It isnt as though he wants to send you to Hell.

Then why does he do it? Who's making him?

He loves you unconditionally...yet you dont even believe in him? Why should he not send you to Hell?

Uhhh...because he loves me unconditionally...you do know what that means right?

Do you love him unconditionally?

Didnt answer the question, returned with different question... figures.

Geeze!

Yes, I know what unconditional love is. The question is rhetorical. Everyone knows what unconditional love is! God has unconditional love for us!

The question is do you for him?

Salvation works two ways.

The word unconditional is "without conditions or reservations; absolute."

Make of that what you will :)

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
It isnt as though he wants to send you to Hell.

He loves you unconditionally...yet you dont even believe in him? Why should he not send you to Hell? (not saying I hope this happens, lol)

Case in point. Your words betray a parrot like understanding.

It isn't like he wants to.....so who is twisting his arm? Your statement may make sense to you, but to others it is a statement that makes no sense.

There is NOTHING unconditional about the God you describe. Unconditional love would mean no conditions - yet all you talk about are the conditions to get into heaven. Unconditional love would mean get into heaven without any conditions.

Please explain this clear contradiction.

Like I said....

Salvation demands that you love him too. The fact is, even if you are going to Hell, he still loves you.

It is in your hands.

Jere can you please quote the texts from the bible depicting what your saying

Jere - You didn't answer the question.

Please explain this clear contradiction.

I get that you are saying that if he loved us, he wouldnt send us to Hell. I get that.

What you fail to realize is that it the grace of covenant demands that we accept him too. We were made into a world with no sin, and Adam and Eve made a faithful decision to do otherwise. We are still paying for this...although we have every opportunity to skip that fait.

So it's conditional.

It can not be conditional and unconditional at the same time.

No.

Salvation is conditional.

His love isnt.

Convenient.

So he sends those he loves unconditionally into hell.

If he loved them unconditionally then he would not.

I mean come on - he is God, can't he do whatever he chooses?

Yes he can.

He can do whatever he pleases.......that is why I do not question him. He is far more than I could ever be.

Well you should question. The fact that you don't is the reason for current state of mind.

Why should I question God? Like I said, he is far greater than any of us. Smarter, more powerful, and everything else.

I am in no posistion to question the authority or decisions of God.

So, did you and God have a sit down meeting?

I have had many sit down meetings with the lord, Drew. In the form of prayer.

The closet space to you and the lord is your knees and the floor.

What a cop out.

How do you explain the prayers of Muslims to Allah? They have answered prayer but according to you they are simply deceived (<-- note here is one you can answer instead of avoid)

I think it very possible that God answerd their prayers, just as he would anyone else.

But if God answers the prayers of billions of Muslims - doesn't that make you question if Christianity is the only path to salvation?

Afterall - wouldn't God in this instance only be strengthening their belief in Islam only to say sorry, wrong religion, you go to hell.

I personally do not believe that God has got to reveal himself to anyone.

If he chooses to answer prayers, that is based on his good will...not on causing someone to believe something.

Yes, but how do you reconcile that. How can you ignore it??

You are willing to be very very relaxed in how you see things if it challenges you, and very strict when it supports.

I hate to be blunt. But I'm sure God has answered your prayers before...and you ignore it.

I have answers to prayers all the time.The last thing I do is ignore it.

God seems very complex and contradictory to me. He loves everyone, but sends some people to hell for the beliefs which he allowed. Not only did he allow them to have other beliefs, he strengthened them and moved them further away from the correct path. All the while we cannot question him because he is an all powerful, all knowing being who chose to give us free will and the punishment for exercising it.
Does this sound about right?

JERE said the following quotes:
Salvation demands that you love him too. The fact is, even if you are going to Hell, he still loves you.




My respect and belief in a supreme being is conditional as well. I will not respect or believe in a supreme being who sends good people to hell simply for not believing in him. If God wants to change his behavior, then I am willing to accept him. Its up to you God.

Originally posted by DrewM
I have answers to prayers all the time.The last thing I do is ignore it.

So wait...

Let me refresh.

Do you or do you not believe in God? And if not, who is answering your prayer?

I have never said I didn't believe in God.

I have never said it is wrong to follow Christian teachings.

What I think is wrong is to be so blind as to think you are exclusively right, that heaven is paved with Gold yada yada, that whole races are deceived, to never question anything and to do all this when faced with insurmountable arguments that show clearly that this mode of thought is faulty.

Let me ask you this:

What IS your mode of thought?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
In a new personal goal of mine to better understand the other side of the religious world....I am trying to understand the lifestyles of athiests/agnostics.

I know the answer to this question for a few of the members....but I'm going to ask it and open this topic up for discussion.

Do you feel it offensive to be prayed for? (Even if it's by someone wanting what they feel is the best for you.))

Hello jerejerebinks.

I don't find it offensive at all. You can pray I go to heaven or you can pray I get cancer - the content of your private rituals has no bearing on me.

What can be strange is when a theist asks permission. I would never say to a theist "may I privately contemplate you later?".

Originally posted by Blob
I would never say to a theist "may I privately contemplate you later?".

LMAO!