I post this not to people that follow the dogma of religions.
What I post here is that which religious leaders of organized religions would fear most and cover at any expense. For if this realization were accepted widely it would destroy the empires that have been built by the Catholic Church and other large religious organizations. It would cancel the power and wealth they control over others.

I speak to anyone that searches for the Supreme Being of all that is. Call it the ramblings of an old man if you will, the total sum of a lifetime of observing and learning.

God exists within you and around you. There is no need for ministers, popes, or preachers. There is no need for Churches of brick, and wood. There is no need for statues of clay or concrete, nor any religious relic at all. There is no pentance to pay, no sacrifice to make. It is there for everyone regardless of gender, age, race or sexual preference. It requires no guilt, no book, no worship, nor any special skills.
It is as natural as the air you breath or the sun on your face.
You only need to allow in order to find and the magic will come.

"You never enjoy the world aright,
Till the sea itself floweth in your veins,
Till you are clothed with the heavens,
And crowned with the stars,
And perceive yourself be the sole heir of the whole world"
Thomas Traherne

Religion is how one connects to the world and beyond, as it is perceived. It is any one person's path to the Divine. It therefore follows that it must, if anything, be experiential, it cannot be spoonfed. What it most certainly isn't is a means of people control. People may be able to be taught how to perceive but that perception cannot be done for them, by proxy, and still have real meaning for the person. If it does then it is self-delusion.

Dan, what you have said, no one needs to cover up or hide. There have been people trying to lead followers astray for years, like you said "ramblings of an old man". Let me ask you, what are the consequences it your ramblings are wrong?

Dan I do agree, God/gods is who it/they are no matter what human trys to cash in on the religion. Christians have the Bible do they need the leaders? They could form small groups if they needed to share their feelings, without the collection plate being past to pay for a multi million dollar building. It would be interesting to see how things would be different if it had not been for the power of mans religions. I am NOT saying Christ is false I would not know. What I am saying is look how man has used the religion to gain power. Did God really want religious wars? Did God want people slain in the name of the lord? Did God intend man to be greedy by using its name?

Originally posted by minister
Dan, what you have said, no one needs to cover up or hide. There have been people trying to lead followers astray for years, like you said "ramblings of an old man". Let me ask you, what are the consequences it your ramblings are wrong?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Followers, an interesting word. It pretty well sums up religions.
People in a mindset of following the pattern established by others. One of the Indian methods of hunting Buffalo comes to mind. Turned toward a cliff the animals follow those ahead over a cliff and to their doom.
My beliefs are a collection of the miracles that I have personally observed. I am not unique, I have merely been a good and "lucky" observer in this life. Unblinded by others opinions and beliefs. Once a person becomes caught up in religious dogma the personal learning is over. The blinders are in place.

If a person can stay open minded the truth will come to them. A person must become aware of natural occurances happening around them and how actions or inactions relate with each other.

What are the consequences of being wrong you ask?
The consequences of being wrong in the search for the Supreme Force are unpleasant. Those that pass expecting physical streets of gold, judgement, pearly gates, mansions in the sky, 7 virgins, etc., will be greatly confused. A confusing anguish that they may not get over. They will not realize what has happened and how to cope. Personal experience has shown me the other side and it is like nothing that is written in books. Man has misunderstood.

Prophets have tried to tell others of what lay ahead after death and how to prepare. Man has twisted the words and their meaning to fit religions, this is impossible. It cannot be done. For once the religion is in place the meaning is lost.

The frustration of the prophets must have been great.

There are people who would be better called sheeple. They will blindly follow whatever they are told. It saves them from having to make the determination themselves, saves them from having to develop an internal compass for right and wrong and removes them from the task of being connected to their conscience. They have ancient scriptures to tell them what they should and should not do rather than looking onto themselves, connecting to their humanity and makeing the determination themselves.

People need to look to themselves for answers to listen to their own personal conscience and not to some ancient book of scriptures. When we look to ourselves and our conscience for answers, we connect with our humanity and the world around us. We take a personal responsibility for our moral decisions and actions. We take a certain stand because we used sequential thought process and our conscience and we came to a conclusion. We are able to back that stand up with our own personal reasons for taking it, and because it is OUR decision, we are also able to re-evaluate that stand and alter it if we find we are wrong. People who turn to a religion for a decision on what stand to take, can seldom back it up with solid reasons and explain their thought process and how they came to that decision, instead they spout scripture. Sometimes not even understanding the words they are spouting. Also, people who turn to religion for a decision on what stand to take are seldom willing to re-evaluate that decision because religious doctrines almost always teaches not to question, just to go on faith. Having faith demands that we sublimate logic.

Obviously because we are dealing with people there are differing levels of loss of humanity and personal conscience. Some people are on the other end of the spectrum from the extreme examples I gave above. They do not follow all of their churches teachings to the letter. They turn to it for some things, and not for others. Some of their moral conclusions are their own. And many have not completely lost the ability to connect to their conscience, take responsibility for their conclusions, support them without scripture and even re-evaluate them when they feel the need. Something their Church’s would not approve of.

The insipient way religion takes away an individuals connection to their conscience, slowly taking over the person's life until they have little or no connection to their humanity and the world around them other than through that particular religious doctrine. Religions take away peoples personal responsibility for their moral convictions. They tell them what is right and wrong and how to conduct their lives.

A thoughtful post Echo,
I also want everyone to know that my beliefs are not any attempt to compete with their religion. I could care less who chooses to follow a particular religion. I do not feel that I have to "convert" anyone. I simply try to give an alternative.
It may be as simple that those that die unaware simply-eventually recycle on earth until aware. Thus, leading to the reincarnation theory.
This is a possibility due to the fact that, as generations pass and time goes by, less and less people seem to be satisfied with the blind acceptance of religions.

Dan - I agree with you - my personal experience fits exactly with what you have shared.

I went to church every week as a kid and in my early 20's I was involved in evangelical christianity for around 2 years. Actually Jere reminds me of me when I was 20.

It's clear to me now that religion is man's dogma. There is a force or whatever you want to call it that can help us in our lives if we are open to it. Remarkable coincidences happen constantly if you are open to them. What we experience is a mirror of what we expect and how we live.

Can you expand on this comment you made

Personal experience has shown me the other side and it is like nothing that is written in books. Man has misunderstood.


This is the only part of your post that I find dubious - but I am interested to hear more.

What I meant by followers is followers of God.

So you choose to believe a God that you have made out of your own personal experiences, does that mean everyone has a different God set to their personal experiences.


***There are consequences for being wrong but you didn't name it, being seperated from God for your belief, that you know best.

Who is smarter: the creation or the creator....

Originally posted by DrewM
Dan

Can you expand on this comment you made

This is the only part of your post that I find dubious - but I am interested to hear more.
------------------------------------------------
Drew thank you for your comments.
The statement I made above that you refer would be understandbly questionable.
It is hard to explain in print but I will attempt to do so.
Although it is not widely accepted some people from time to time have what we call (psychic experiences) for want of a better name to call it. I have been involved in experiments of such that proved, with witnesses and documentation that such things as glimpses of the future and out of body experiences do happen. These things are not readily accepted by society in general and I should have not probably brought them up here.
Man, when aware of his potential, can accomplish amazing things. Our societies have pushed such things underground and actually slowed the developmental process of man thru ridicule and blaming such things on the Devil, Satan, etc. These things are more widely accepted in the far east than the west.
Never the less it makes them no less true, just most are unfamiliar.

Religions have prophets that supposedly saw the future but accept such as God given and any one else do the same is using the Devils work.

During some of my experiences I went to other places in time space as a spirit(the Bible speaks of this as being "in spirit") and witnessed many things one was where we go after death.

I do not expect for anyone to believe these things I write now for man has not progressed to a point where such things are accepted. Hell, I probably would doubt ones sanity that tried to tell me such things, had I not been priviledged to live these experiences I would doubt them myself. So doubt will not hurt my feelings.
Generations to come will realize that mans potential will create wonders that we would call miracles today.
I have lived a life of wonderment that I would trade for nothing.

I hope sharing this here and now does not cost me all credibility but the truth is the truth.

Thanks for sharing. Your experiences don't make me think you are nuts - they are your experiences. Of course unless I actually experience it myself - then it is somebody elses experience and therefore just a point of interest vs a point of fact for me.

I would be interested to here descriptions of those experiences.

Originally posted by mad dog
Christians have the Bible do they need the leaders?

God gave us preachers and teachers to show us the way of rigtheousness and to teach us the Word of God. That is what helps believers grow in the Lord.

Did God really want religious wars? Did God want people slain in the name of the lord? Did God intend man to be greedy by using its name?

Of course not. People who kill others in the name of God are not truly following Him. We are commanded by Jesus to love one another. Not kill epople because they don't acept our beliefs. Most christians don't even live like that. I know christians that are very kind and sincere people.

Originally posted by DrewM


I went to church every week as a kid and in my early 20's I was involved in evangelical christianity for around 2 years. Actually Jere reminds me of me when I was 20.




Drew, what ever caused you to turn back from evangelical christianity? You had accepted it before, why would you have turned away from it?

Despire that, Jesus still loves ya more than you can imagine.

Originally posted by the J Man
Drew, what ever caused you to turn back from evangelical christianity? You had accepted it before, why would you have turned away from it?

I realized it was dogma and I un-programmed myself - difficult though that was at the time. There is no way in hell I would ever go back to that. There is no possible way I ever could.

I know christians that are very kind and sincere people.

Agreed 100% - this is not an attack on people, just a discussion of belief.

Originally posted by DrewM
I realized it was dogma and I un-programmed myself - difficult though that was at the time. There is no way in hell I would ever go back to that. There is no possible way I ever could.





I'm sorry you feel that way Drew. There must be something more to it than that if you realy feel that way. I almost turned away from the church. There was a time that I didn't feel as if God cared about me. But He showed me that He does love me unconditionally and does value me. He cares about you too, Drew.

Funny - you automatically assume that because I ultimately rejected Christianity 13 or so years ago that it must mean that I was somehow turning away due to a time when I "didn't feel as if God cared"

Nothing could be further from the truth. I rejected that because it's a load of baloney - that is the only reason. It took a few years to be completely free of it. If Christianity works for other people - great, but personally you can get everything Christianity offers without any of the crazy beliefs.

I see evidence in my life constantly of a higher force, God or whatever you want to call it and I don't need any of the dogma of Christianity to experience it.

So....I guess that means I was "stolen" by Satan :@@:

Dan, can I ask what glimpses of the future did you have? If they are proved and documented I wondered what it is you saw. What did you see as far as after death.....I am really curious...

All i can say about echo's post is....

id rather have a "sheeple" who was brought up to help and serve, be respectful, and loving rather than just relying on someone's ORIGINAL instincts to dictate their lives...your arguement is so off base, you make it sound as if people shouldnt learn anything and be who they originally are. Why the hell do we have school?? i bet you hate school because it makes people learn things, and isnt their ORIGINAL thoughts.....

Drew, Minister, allow me a few days to ponder this. I can understand the curiosity I started with my remarks. I do not mind sharing. I am writing a book on my experiences.
I will make a post soon and give an example of what I saw that I presume would be what we would call heaven/hell. I hesitate because what I was shown may not be all there is. I do not want to give information that would make a person draw a conclusion that there may not be something else. I can only speak of what I saw.
I hope you can see where I am coming from, I do not want to mis-represent something so important. I take this very serious.
I do not claim to be a know-it-all, for I do not have all the answers. I can speak only from my experiences.
I can only assume the things are true that I saw because I have experienced things that were proven true. Like completely, in detail describing the contents of time-lock bank vaults before they were opened, etc.
Completely decribing, in detail, auto accidents before they happened. Including how many people involved, make model color and year of vehicle. Position of telephone pole after accident and exact description of injuries, exact damage to vehicle-hours before accident happened.
These are only a few of the documented occurances. The accidents were documented by law enforcement as well as the bank vault contents.
I do not know why I have this gift(which can also be called a curse) and I can not control it all the time. It usually occurs when I am asleep. Sometime it contains things that I do not want to know.
Thank you for your understanding and patience.

Originally posted by the J Man
I'm sorry you feel that way Drew. There must be something more to it than that if you realy feel that way. I almost turned away from the church. There was a time that I didn't feel as if God cared about me. But He showed me that He does love me unconditionally and does value me. He cares about you too, Drew.

OH MY GOODNESS! IT'S THE J-MAN! WOWIE KAZOWIE!

i mean, uh....fancy meeting you here...

Originally posted by sputnik
OH MY GOODNESS! IT'S THE J-MAN! WOWIE KAZOWIE!

i mean, uh....fancy meeting you here...

What-a-coincidence, eh?

Originally posted by the J Man
God gave us preachers and teachers to show us the way of rigtheousness and to teach us the Word of God. That is what helps believers grow in the Lord.

Lets use Christianity for example, If you have the the operaters manual do you really need the opinion of another man. What makes one mans opinion better then yours? he would know nothing more about God then you, so why pay for him to preach? I do relize there are good people and bad but you have to admit there are those out there that are cashing in on an opinion? Grow with the lord........ wouldn't this be personal? if your using anothers preachings then your not growing with the lord your growing with preacher Bob? The fact remains MANs religion is big business.



Of course not. People who kill others in the name of God are not truly following Him. We are commanded by Jesus to love one another. Not kill epople because they don't acept our beliefs. Most christians don't even live like that.

But there was a time when most Christians did. I relize today most people are good hearted but there are still alot of wars going on in the name of religion.

I know christians that are very kind and sincere people.

I would say most folks are kind{atleast on the outside} I was just making a point as to how religion has been used to make killing sound OK.

Dan:

I have also had dreams that have come true, some were important others didn't make an impact, just knew what was going to happen before it did. I just wish I could get those winning #'s :D

One dream I had when I was younger was about getting stuck in the snow on a road I had never been on. Some family members and I were out getting an x-mas tree when we took a short cut through the mountains, well we got stuck. I told them not to worry because there was a tan truck comming that would get us out. About a half hour went by and sure enough a tan chevy 4by4 came along and got us back on our way. This didn't seem like a big deal to me but of course I was the only one not worried about freezing to death.

I have also talked to alot of other folks that have seen into the future{if thats what it is} I have to believe most of their story's because it has happened to me more then once. I don't really care who believes me anymore I have proven myself to those that count in my life.

Originally posted by mad dog
Dan:


I have also talked to alot of other folks that have seen into the future{if thats what it is} I have to believe most of their story's because it has happened to me more then once. I don't really care who believes me anymore I have proven myself to those that count in my life.
----------------------------------------------
Thanks for sharing the experience Maddog.
I believe that everyone has the ability to experience such things.
Some seem stronger for some reason. Maybe it is contributed to their awareness somehow. Many have had it happen and not realized it occured. You can get a glimpse of the future that does not involve you directly therefore you would never know it came true.
When such events occur time and space are no longer a consideration. You might experience an event in the past, present, or future. It could be several thousand miles from you.
I experienced one the other night that involved a candle that had to be lit twice, much spilled wax on the floor, and a small boy that had fallen and had a nose bleed. I will probably never know where and when this happened.

The really interesting ones to me are when I have a person behind me, that I cannot see, walking me thru experiences and explaining things to me. I have no idea who this is or where he comes from. Occasionally he gives me messages for others and this blows their mind, especially when I am directed to go to a stranger and give them a message. Usually they reply that this is something that they have secretly prayed for the answer to.

People worry about this life too much. They desire too much. Create their own uncomfort. Add this to worry about the here-after and many are unnecessarily distraught.

People need to worry less and enjoy this playground we live on.
I believe this would be the beginning of the awareness I speak of.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I post this not to people that follow the dogma of religions.
What I post here is that which religious leaders of organized religions would fear most and cover at any expense. For if this realization were accepted widely it would destroy the empires that have been built by the Catholic Church and other large religious organizations. It would cancel the power and wealth they control over others.

I speak to anyone that searches for the Supreme Being of all that is. Call it the ramblings of an old man if you will, the total sum of a lifetime of observing and learning.

God exists within you and around you. There is no need for ministers, popes, or preachers. There is no need for Churches of brick, and wood. There is no need for statues of clay or concrete, nor any religious relic at all. There is no pentance to pay, no sacrifice to make. It is there for everyone regardless of gender, age, race or sexual preference. It requires no guilt, no book, no worship, nor any special skills.
It is as natural as the air you breath or the sun on your face.
You only need to allow in order to find and the magic will come.


Love your post. Hear where you are coming from and think you are where most people long to be. I do not think it necessarily conflicts with dogma though. Perhaps it actually reinforces dogma if one were to break it down piece by piece.

From a Christian perspective (the only view I can come from since that was my base) there is the Trinity. The Trinity being Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit or "teacher" was meant for the exact purpose of which you speak. Christ spoke of the Holy Spirit as the teacher... and the Holy Spirit was left here on earth or within us so that we could progress and learn not stagnate and never move forward. Gonna stop here since otherwise there will be too many issues thrown into one post.

Why do you think your perspective conflicts?

Originally posted by Echo2
The insipient way religion takes away an individuals connection to their conscience, slowly taking over the person's life until they have little or no connection to their humanity and the world around them other than through that particular religious doctrine. Religions take away peoples personal responsibility for their moral convictions. They tell them what is right and wrong and how to conduct their lives.

Have to say here Echo2 I disagree with the statement 100%. You have generalized and lumped all religions into one mindset. I was raised Roman Catholic. From the time I was small my church taught me to examine my conscience. It was very rudimentary since I was only six. But it gave me the basic approach for examining with honesty and knowing if what I had done was right or wrong. Rather than take away my personal responsibility it enabled me to know that I am solely responsible for every action I take.

Their instruction as to what is morally right and wrong would jive would a secular approach.

Dan, one more quick question... you will either know of which I speak or it will make no sense to you at all... do you know about guides?

i do Sal.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ~Sal~
Why do you think your perspective conflicts?
-----------------------------------------------------
Sal, I believe one of the first reasons my perspective conflicts is no need for religious leaders. What I speak of actually requires no religion. It is a completely natural occurance.

Sal, I also believe that Christ lived. I believe he had a message for mankind, how to reach his inside self and accomplish wonders.
I believe man, in their misunderstanding or selfish reasons, made his teachings into a religion.
Muhammid was also a teacher.
Buddah, was a teacher that became a God by men.
The native Americans had teachers.
All of the above tried to make people understand that true peace and happiness here on earth and beyond lay in one's inner self.
To reach (God) one must first gain command of himself. These teachings started me on my path of learning many years ago.


As far a (guides) I believe I understand what you speak of I merely call them angels.

creetwins...hmmm...most don't...we will have to talk... ;) Thanks for your response.

Dan... people are not all on the same level.

I have a friend who has an eight year old daughter. Her daughter is very... "advanced" in some ways for her years. She told her dad: " God told me he speaks to each and every one of us every day. Adults just have too much going on to hear" That sounds right to me.

My point is; of course there must be religious teachers and leaders. Dan most people can barely make it through the day in one piece let alone contemplate themselves, the universe, or God. We are not all equal, and we are certainly not all capable in the same way. Do we need religious leaders... many do not, most need things spelled out for them. And if it enriches their life and enables them happiness, what is the harm?

IF we evolve and return then each time we repeat our journey we ascend the ladder. You would not expect a five year old to have the same maturity and decision making capabilites as a 20 year old. A five year old needs much instruction and guidance. Why would you expect a first timer or a second timer to have the same capablities as a fourth timer?

As for angels, yes many people believe in them. I do but guides are different (sort of) ;)

what are guides? or is it a need to know basis type of thing?

Originally posted by DrewM
what are guides? or is it a need to know basis type of thing?

Drew some people believe that guides are "spirits" which have lived here before who we can tap into. They will tell us things about the future, or our current lives etc. They could even be animals in some cultures such as Native American. That's why I asked Dan if he knew of them. They would differ from angels in that they have been mortal. That would be a very simplified explanation. Hope that sort of gives you an idea.

Trinity is my guide.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DrewM
[B]what are guides? or is it a need to know basis type of thing?
-------------------------------------
Drew, I found more information on this at.........

http://spiritrus.com/spiritguides/

Interesting stuff. I have no experience with anything like this.

Several years ago I happend to talk to a very interesting person who could "see" a lot of things. She told me that I had a person close to me in the "spirit" world or whatever you call it - she said this person was my grandmothers brother who drowned when he was in his teens and lives vicariously thru me. I thought ok, and asked my grandmother if she had a bother - sure enough, she had a brother who drowned when he was 15 in like 1920. I didn't know anything about that. I have never had any sense of his presence though.

Has anybody read the Carlos Castenada books - they were great reads

American indian stuff is very interesting.

Interesting story Drew, even the Christian Bible says that different people have different "gifts," I would say that the lady you talked with is one of these.
I used the Bible for reference on this to show that people have always had these abilities since it recorded them a couple thousand years ago.

I had an interesting thing happen this morning. I did not sleep well last night so I took a short morning nap in my recliner.
I had one of my "real type" dreams that was nice.
I was in a totally unfamiliar place. Each house had a tall structure next to it which consisted of a pole with rings on it. The rings were larger at the botton and grew smaller at they approached the top. Each ring was suspended by wires attached to the pole and spaced about 3 ft. apart. Seem like they were a power source of some type.
The people all wore white shirts and a type of jeans that were made from a material I am unfamiliar with. The interesting thing about their shoes was that instead of strings they had a flap which they pulled over and was a magnet.

Overhead I heard a "whisper" type sound and a plane came over that sort of hovered. It was gray and red. It held two occupants in a bubble on top. It had, on each side, an extremely large propulsion engine that each one moved independently for hovering etc. Was a small craft. Not our usual propulsion system.

What got my attention most of all was that when I looked up at the plane the sky was not ours. It was not blue. It was more see thru and a different color. I could see space and celestial objects etc.

Hope I am not out of place sharing such things here.

not at all - these stories are quite interesting. Keep em coming.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Trinity is my guide.

That's cool! Nothing wrong with that at all. You have the courage of your convictions and the guts to speak out even when you know your belief will not necessarily be well met. Excellent!

Originally posted by DrewM
Interesting stuff. I have no experience with anything like this.

Several years ago I happend to talk to a very interesting person who could "see" a lot of things. She told me that I had a person close to me in the "spirit" world or whatever you call it - she said this person was my grandmothers brother who drowned when he was in his teens and lives vicariously thru me. I thought ok, and asked my grandmother if she had a bother - sure enough, she had a brother who drowned when he was 15 in like 1920. I didn't know anything about that. I have never had any sense of his presence though.

Has anybody read the Carlos Castenada books - they were great reads, once you've done sufficient acid or mushrooms - you can get a flavor of what those books touch on.

American indian stuff is very interesting.

Fascinating experience you had there Drew. I am new to guides and stumbled upon someone who knew them well at just the time I was ready to hear about them. That's the way things usually work. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

I believe we all have guides which we contract with before we arrive and my main guide has confirmed that. On the other hand I do not discount the Trinity either.

The fact that you were mainline fundamental is interesting to me as well. I used to be very prejudiced about Fundamentalist till I began to date one. He was so freaked I would drop him, that it took him literally a few months to tell me. I find it interesting that he thinks the whole guide thing is a tad far out for him, yet there is no judgment there. And he also understands the "energy" transfer thing better than most would because he believes in the power of prayer and the laying on of hands.



Has anybody read the Carlos Castenada books - they were great reads, once you've done sufficient acid or mushrooms - you can get a flavor of what those books touch on.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No what are they about and do I need to be stoned to understand them...lol

They are books about an anthropolgy student's time with indians in Mexico. Peyote and all that good stuff. There are like 6 books I think - I read them all years ago.

With regards to fundamentalists - it's not the beliefs per say that are an issue - it is the exclusive nature of the beliefs. It's ok to say - this is my way, right for me - whether that be Christianity, Islam, Shamanism etc - there are many paths. It becomes a problem I think though when a group starts to believe in really obscure details (heaven has gold streets for example) and believe that they alone have the answers and everybody else is headed to hell.

All radicals are - after radicals !

I used the Bible for reference on this to show that people have always had these abilities since it recorded them a couple thousand years ago.

I agree we all have it but from childhood most parents suppress it in their children since it doesn't fit with the secular view of things. Once suppressed it is harder to unleash again.

Great dream there Dan...do you have any theories about it?

Also I will check out the site you posted...

Sal, I do not know if my view was of man's future or life that is being carried on somewhere at this time somewhere else.
I do not see how it could have been earth from the view and surroundings.
The problem with trying to theorize this sort of thing is that time, distance, diminsions are unlimited.
In the dream I actually sat down and wondered were I was.
It is a marvelous experience!

With regards to fundamentalists - it's not the beliefs per say that are an issue - it is the exclusive nature of the beliefs. It's ok to say - this is my way, right for me - whether that be Christianity, Islam, Shamanism etc - there are many paths. It becomes a problem I think though when a group starts to believe in really obscure details (heaven has gold streets for example) and believe that they alone have the answers and everybody else is headed to hell.

Yeah I hear you on that. What freaked me out most about the whole fundamental thing was one of my girlfriends. She converted from United to hmmmm...can't remember the name. But this woman that I had been friends with for years told me one night in a phone coversation that I was not Christian because I was Catholic. That blew me away. I think most of all because when I was little the Catholic church would drill into us that "Protestants weren't going to heaven.

I remember looking at my bestfriend who was Protestant and thinking what they told me had to be utter BS since on one hand I had been taught that God was ultimate love. How could ultimate love send my girlfriend to hell merely because she had been born into a Protestant home. I was only 8 but I had a good BS detector even then.

Since then the Catholic church has practically fallen all over itself trying to have an Ecumenical approach. Yeah, ya think.

There is much good there. But they are just too narrow for me. But they were my base and a good one to begin from.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Any reasonable person has to look at the facts. There are several billion non christians on this planet. In fact far more non christians than christians. And even within the christian faith there is duelling ticket to hell beliefs.

Any sensible person could not bury their head in the sand and ignore this. The ones that do - 99% secretly have a problem with it, but submit to group think. It's a proven fact when people are surrounded by like minded people they will go with the group.

But, Christians aside - there are many Islamic, Jewish etc etc people that think that the other side is going to hell. They all believe this with ABSOLUTE conviction. An intelligent person would mull over that straight up fact & think.

Whats more this conviction has created more hate, more cruelty, more destruction and death in this world than any other thing.

There is only one conclusion - no religion in of itself is a ticket to salvation. If God made us - then he certainly gave us our intelligence. He certainly does not expect us to piss into the long road of religious dogma our god given ability to think.

The only proof anybody can have is their own experience - so many religious types fall back onto their "relationship" with God - the answers to prayer, the warm fuzzies, the strange coincidences. This proves one thing - that there is more to life than meets the eye. It doesn't prove that one group is exclusively right - especially when these things are available to anybody - you do not have to be christian, jewish or whatever to receive Grace.

Dan;

If you don't mind me asking when you have these visions/dreams are you asleep, awake, inbetween ???? I have them when ever I take the time to look, It's really not sleeping but I sure wouldn't want to be driving a car either :) I can have them while sleeping but the ones I find more believable are the ones I have when I'm awake.

Sal;

I have used the guides they are VERY helpfull. It takes alot to learn to listen but if a person truely believes, the guides will have no problem finding them if they wish too. The guides I have used will not be used for greed, getting ahead, etc... They usually give an answer even if it isn't one that a person wants to hear.

Mad dog I have these dreams when sleeping. I have had other experiences while awake.
When the dreams that I speak of here happen there is no comparison to what I would call a "regular" dream. Glad to see that you are aware of your abilities.

Thanks Dan I also would say there is a difference in a regular dream and the other.

Mad dog:

Sal;

I have used the guides they are VERY helpfull. It takes alot to learn to listen but if a person truely believes, the guides will have no problem finding them if they wish too. The guides I have used will not be used for greed, getting ahead, etc... They usually give an answer even if it isn't one that a person wants to hear.

I laughed out loud when I read your last line...isn't that the truth. Guides are fairly new to me. I know I have more than one but it is my main guide (the one that stays for life) that I have comminicated with most. If anyone would have told me I would be doing this a few years ago I would have likely told them to go jump at themselves.

It is becoming a comfort zone now. And yes they are very helpful.

Regarding the dream state...didn't Jung call that awake dream experience "lucid" dreams? Or was that a dream within a dream..can't remember but I think they are called lucid dreams.

Also Mad dog it could be an OBE... or an out of body experience.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Sal, I do not know if my view was of man's future or life that is being carried on somewhere at this time somewhere else.
I do not see how it could have been earth from the view and surroundings.
The problem with trying to theorize this sort of thing is that time, distance, diminsions are unlimited.
In the dream I actually sat down and wondered were I was.
It is a marvelous experience!


Hmmm...okay was just curious as to whether or not you had a "feeling" one way or another. And the time thing does get very distorted. I asked my guide about that once since something he had told me was going to happen did not happen it the time frame he had given me. He said they have problems with our understanding of time since time is actually not linear.

Regardless of the meaning sometimes just the experience is enough. I sometimes tend too much toward the "what is the meaning of this" instead of just letting it happen.

Originally posted by DrewM
You've hit the nail on the head.

Any reasonable person has to look at the facts. There are several billion non christians on this planet. In fact far more non christians than christians. And even within the christian faith there is duelling ticket to hell beliefs.

Any sensible person could not bury their head in the sand and ignore this. The ones that do - 99% secretly have a problem with it, but submit to group think. It's a proven fact when people are surrounded by like minded people they will go with the group.

But, Christians aside - there are many Islamic, Jewish etc etc people that think that the other side is going to hell. They all believe this with ABSOLUTE conviction. An intelligent person would mull over that straight up fact & think.

Whats more this conviction has created more hate, more cruelty, more destruction and death in this world than any other thing.

There is only one conclusion - no religion in of itself is a ticket to salvation. If God made us - then he certainly gave us our intelligence. He certainly does not expect us to piss into the long road of religious dogma our god given ability to think.

The only proof anybody can have is their own experience - so many religious types fall back onto their "relationship" with God - the answers to prayer, the warm fuzzies, the strange coincidences. This proves one thing - that there is more to life than meets the eye. It doesn't prove that one group is exclusively right - especially when these things are available to anybody - you do not have to be christian, jewish or whatever to receive Grace.

Yeah I have to say....great post you did!! Nothing in there that I would disagree with. I think there is always more to life than meets the eye, you're right. It is merely a matter of expanding our current comfort zone and allowing ourselves to experience "the world".

Originally posted by ~Sal~
Yeah I have to say....great post!! Nothing in there that I would disagree with. I think there is always more to life than meets the eye, you're right. It is merely a matter of expanding our current comfort zone and allowing ourselves to experience "the world".
----------------

Yes, and the more aware and experienced we become the less one cares if they convert others to one's way of thinking.
I always help another on the path when asked. I especially like to help those that are intelligent, seeking, and are not fooled by handed down information. Those that tell me that something is not making sense about organized religion, that something is missing.
I could care less if ignorant, hard-headed, asleep, non-thinking people listen or not. I am on no mission to save humanity from itself.
I do not mind sharing what I have become aware of- I just do not have time for self imposed ignorance.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
----------------

Yes, and the more aware and experienced we become the less one cares if they convert others to one's way of thinking.
I always help another on the path when asked. I especially like to help those that are intelligent, seeking, and are not fooled by handed down information. Those that tell me that something is not making sense about organized religion, that something is missing.
I could care less if ignorant, hard-headed, asleep, non-thinking people listen or not. I am on no mission to save humanity from itself.
I do not mind sharing what I have become aware of- I just do not have time for self imposed ignorance.

Yes it is funny about that conversion thing. People have to find their own way as we are each in a different space and each have different gifts and abilities. Like you I will share or tell my experience. Those that "get it" will...those that do not, do not...it's that simple.

It's funny though that when people see how one's life and happenings reflect one's beliefs they are frequently curious.