WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush officially won a second term in the White House after electoral votes from all 50 states were counted Thursday during a joint session of Congress.

The normally perfunctory ceremony of counting and certifying Electoral College votes was delayed for about four hours as Democrats unsuccessfully challenged Ohio's votes for Bush.

Bush received 286 electoral votes, 16 more than the 270 he needed to win re-election. Sen. John Kerry, a Massachusetts Democrat, received 251 votes. One Democratic elector cast a vote not for Kerry but for former Sen. John Edwards, his vice presidential running mate.

In the vice presidential race, Vice President Dick Cheney received 286 electoral votes and Edwards received 252.

Alleging widespread "irregularities" on Election Day, a group of Democrats in Congress objected earlier Thursday to the counting of Ohio's 20 electoral votes.

The challenge was defeated 267-31 by the House and 74-1 by the Senate, clearing the way for the joint session to count the votes from the remaining states.

[v]The move was not designed to overturn Bush's re-election[/b], said Ohio Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and California Sen. Barbara Boxer, who filed the objection.

The objecting Democrats, all of whom are House members except Boxer, said they wanted to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/electoral.vote/index.html

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I know many of you are going to say “get over it” “you lost” and I understand that we did indeed lose. Although, there was some form of irregularities in Ohio. There was some voter fraud. Most likely not enough to sway the election at all, but enough to take notice to it.

I just want to understand, truly why Republicans get so frustrated with Democrats trying to make sure that every vote was counted fairly? We are not trying to change the outcome, we know Bush won. We are just trying to point out that we need to improve our voting system here in America, and this is a great way to get it some attention.

But honestly, we are not “sore losers”, because we AREN’T TRYING TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME we are just trying to be true Americas and try and improve our system.

I see Republicans all over screaming at us, for doing what the SYSTEM ALLOWS US TO DO. The system was made this way for a reason, and we are ONLY FOLLOWING the system.

Is it that much of a crime to want to discuss the possibility of voter fraud? I mean, if there was NO voter fraud like the Republicans say, then they wouldn't have such an issue with debating it? Now would they? It's as if they don't want to improve our voting system, and isn't that ironic and anti-American?

The reason they came off like whiners is because they didn't want to challenge the irregularities in any of the states that Senator Kerry won (New Hampshire, for example)

OD, if they are TRULY "just trying to point out that we need to improve our voting system here in America, and this is a great way to get it some attention", Ohio wouldn't be the total focus.

I believe you were sincere in what you wrote, but the people in charge aren't nearly so interested in improvement as you are.

Originally posted by Overdose
I know many of you are going to say “get over it” “you lost” and I understand that we did indeed lose. Although, there was some form of irregularities in Ohio. There was some voter fraud. Most likely not enough to sway the election at all, but enough to take notice to it.

The irregularities absolutely need to be looked at, and to the extent that such investigations are being thwarted, well, that's wrong. On the other hand, the people wanting investigations of the irregularities only seem interested in the irregularities that might benefit their side. For instance complaining about the people in a primarily democratic area forced to wait an hour to vote (as seen in the video link that was provided) and not even mentioning the people forced to wait three hours to vote in a primarily republican area (Warren County). Which is why the argument seems disingenuous on its face. Not to mention that the illogical leap is being made from "irregularities" to "fraud," meaning that someone actually went out and changed votes with intent to change the results. You yourself say that there was some fraud and yet no there is no proof beyond suppositions and innuendo. It's hard for both sides to come together to try to solve problems if one side is accusing the other of wrongdoing without at least some sort of proof.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
On the other hand, the people wanting investigations of the irregularities only seem interested in the irregularities that might benefit their side.
Okay, I understand that the Democrat are mostly looking into the states that had irregularities against them. But I don’t think it’s the Democrats job to look out for the behalf of the Republican voters. I mean, yes, every vote should be counted fairly, and it shouldn’t matter the party. But you can only do so much. And the Democrats are naturally going to try and help their party before helping the Republicans. If the Republicans were worried about irregularities happening to them, they should look into it themselves and not force the Democrats to do their work for them. I guess this slightly sounds hypocritical…but I mean really…the state that had the most irregularities was most likely Ohio and that is the state that should be most looked into. Period.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
You yourself say that there was some fraud and yet no there is no proof beyond suppositions and innuendo
A good read. On why we think there was some sort of fraud…it lists the reasons. Please read…if you want to get a better understanding.

1. Exit Polls Did Not Match Actual Vote in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida

The gulf between the exit polls and counted votes was glaring. The Zogby Poll and the media consortium poll (including CNN and AP) had Kerry winning an electoral landslide with 53% and 51% respectively in Ohio. Why did exit polls match the actual vote in the nation – EXCEPT for Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania?

Exit polls are considered the most accurate measurement of the vote. Exit polls were responsible for calling for a revote in the Ukraine. The odds of the exit polls being outside the margin of error in these three battleground states are about 155 million to one. The exit poll data has never been released. There must be an investigation of the exit poll disparities.

2. Voting machines owned by private, partisan companies subject to manipulation

Voting machine tampering occurred throughout the state. In Mahoning County, votes “hopped” from Kerry to Bush. In Franklin County, votes for Kerry “faded” away. In Lucas County, Diebold machines froze up and rejected ballots in pro-Kerry precincts.

There were 16 precincts in Cleveland where votes intended for Kerry were shifted to other candidates.

Triad technicians re-programmed vote tabulating computers to Hocking County election officials. In Lucas County, Diebold employees re-programmed vote machines in preparation for the recount. Election officials in that county, including the executive director, are resigning.

Diebold and Triad are led by executives who aggressively supported Bush. Private companies should not be allowed to control voting machines and secret software, which are highly susceptible to hacking and manipulation. There must be a full investigation of the voter machines.

Private owned machines, that leave no audit trail, with owners with a vested interest in the outcome, is offensive to our sensibilities.

3. Uncounted and Provisional Ballots disproportionately affected African American voters

There are 92,672 uncounted ballots in Ohio, concentrated in precincts that voted overwhelmingly for Kerry. As many as 36,000 votes might swing to Kerry if these votes are counted. Nearly 25,000 provisional ballots statewide were rejected and went uncounted.

In Cleveland there are 65 precincts where 4% or more of the ballots went uncounted. These precincts voted overwhelmingly for John Kerry, by a margin of 12 to 1. No one has ever looked at these punch cards to determine the intent of the voters.

There were 24,788 provisional ballots issued in Cuyahoga County, nearly 16% of the statewide total, more than in any other county in Ohio. 7,450 provisional ballots from Cuyahoga County were rejected, reaching as high as 51% in some African American precincts/wards.

4. Inexplicable Vote disparities

The Connally Anomaly: In 13 Southern Ohio counties a under funded, African American municipal court judge from Cleveland, Connally received more votes than John Kerry. In Butler County, Bush got 109,000 votes to Kerry’s 56,000 – but Connally received 61,000 and her republican opponent got 68,000.

In Warren County, election officials declared a Homeland Security threat on Election Day, locked out the press and observers and secretly counted the vote. Bush received an unusually high differential, 68,035 to 26,043.

In three counties - Butler, Warren and Clermont Counties – voter disparities were glaring – Bush’ margin was 132,685 (his statewide margin was 118,775).

In Perry County, the Secretary of State certified two precincts with 124% voter turnout.

In Miami County, a precinct was certified with a 98.55 % turnout – all but ten eligible voters. But a canvass of less than half of this precinct has already located 25 voters that did not vote. An additional 19,000 votes were reported after 100% of the precincts had reported (with the exact percentage as the earlier “100% reported vote”), with Bush adding 6,000 votes to his margin.

In heavily Democratic Cleveland districts, where Kerry was winning 98% of the vote, officials certified a highly improbable 7.85% turnout in one precinct. This precinct was not subject to the recount.

There were 30 precincts in Cleveland with inexplicable voter turnout of below 40%.

In Cuyahoga, two voters gave affidavits swearing they received punch card ballots already punched for Bush.

5. Voting Rights Act Violations

In 42 predominantly African American precincts in Franklin County, there were fewer machines utilized than in the primary. An inner city precinct with 1600 voters had just three machines, while a suburban precinct with 300 voters had three machines. The state guideline is 1 machine per 100 voters.

At the pro-Kerry Kenyon campus, students had just two machines – one which broke down on numerous occasions - and waited up to ten hours until 4:00am to vote.

Districts that voted 60-80% democratic lost machines; precincts with 60-80% voting republicans lost no machines.

There were 700,000 new registrations in Ohio, but in the highest areas of new registration there were no additional voting machines.

77 machines broke down in Franklin County.

Voters in inner city precincts waited in the rain for up to 6 hours to vote, while at least 68 machines stayed dry in the warehouse. A canvas of one of the precinct showed that 20% of voters attempted to vote but left due to time constraints.

Hispanic voters in Cleveland were forced to vote at precincts where all of the ballots were in English, and poll workers did not speak Spanish.

6. The Recount did not Recount the Votes

Only 3% of the precincts were subject to a hand count. Most were not selected randomly as required by law, but hand-picked by partisan election officials. Vote machines in at least two counties were re-programmed by Triad or Diebold officials after the “sample 3%” precincts were selected. Throughout the state, private vendors supervised or monitored the machine or hand recount.

Secretary of State Blackwell and county election officials have a vested interest in delivering Ohio to Bush, a clear conflict of interest.

There was a full hand count of all ballots in just one of Ohio’s 88 counties. Differences in the original count and the “recount” – which should have triggered full hand count of the entire county - were routinely ignored.

7. Challenge at January 6 Joint Session of Congress

ALL of these “glitches” fell in Bush’s favor. The systematic bias and potential for fraud is unmistakable. An in-depth investigation is vital. On January 6, Congressman Conyers and members of the House will step up and challenge the voter irregularities in Ohio. To force that debate, they need only one member of the Senate to join them, and Democratic Senators should join them.

If America is to be a champion of democracy abroad, it must clean up its elections at home. If it is to complain of fraudulent and dishonest election practices abroad, it cannot condone them at home. But more important, if our own elections are to be legitimate, then they must be honest, open, with high national standards. We need national standards for voting, an end to partisan control of the election process by state officials, accompanied by a constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to vote for all Americans.

Not to say I agree with it all, or even know if it is all FACTUALLY true. I'm not claiming it is, and I never will. But it’s WORTH looking into.

And you know why, we can't factually prove this?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO PAPER TRAIL

The company who made these machines made them with no paper trial (even though ever other machine they produce has a paper trail. IE ATM machines that print out the amount of money you have in the bank) Basically you voted, and you never knew if your vote was cast correctly or not. With no paper trail, it's very hard to factually explain this.

Had voting problems in the 2000 election. Neither side has eliminated the problems.
The entire system needs revamping to give a candidate a chance that is not Democrat or Republican.
This is the reason not many changes will be made.

You can bet it wont be changed on GB's watch.

"Voting" is a farce. What if they wanted to vote for somebody GWB didn't like in Iraq?

BELLEVUE, Wash. - Republican Dino Rossi and the state Republican Party announced Friday that they would contest the governor’s election that gave his Democratic opponent, Christine Gregoire, a 129-vote victory.

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Republicans have been building a case over the past few weeks, gathering evidence of voting irregularities, including illegal provisional ballots and a handful of votes cast by dead people. They are pushing for a revote, an unprecedented step in a statewide election.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6793577/

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Wait? What? So, they can do it...but when the Democrats do it we get spit at and looked down upon? We get called “sore losers”…and we get told to “get over it”..hmmm…

I understand this vote was much closer, but still…it’s the same thing “irregularities” etc.

Originally posted by Overdose
I mean, yes, every vote should be counted fairly, and it shouldn’t matter the party. But you can only do so much. And the Democrats are naturally going to try and help their party before helping the Republicans. If the Republicans were worried about irregularities happening to them, they should look into it themselves and not force the Democrats to do their work for them.

I don't disagree with that, but then the Dems should stop claiming that they're really just interested in making sure all voting was honest and fair.

Originally posted by Overdose
A good read. On why we think there was some sort of fraud…it lists the reasons. Please read…if you want to get a better understanding.

I've seen that before. But, as you say here, those are reasons why there appears to be fraud and why it needs to be investigated. I agree that there needs to be an investigation. What I take issue with is jumping from this to saying that there was in fact fraud. Which you actually said in your first post.

Originally posted by Overdose
And you know why, we can't factually prove this?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO PAPER TRAIL

The company who made these machines made them with no paper trial (even though ever other machine they produce has a paper trail. IE ATM machines that print out the amount of money you have in the bank) Basically you voted, and you never knew if your vote was cast correctly or not. With no paper trail, it's very hard to factually explain this.

In as much as everyone likes to blame the manufacturers of the machines, they built the machines they were asked to build. The whole paper trail deal came into the picture a little late for this election. I definitely recall reading an article wherein California's Secretary of State was complaining that he just bought a few thousand non-paper trail machines and now he had to either toss them out or figure out if they could be retro-fitted somehow. It seems the lack of paper trail-producing machines is more a result of the hurry to get electronic voting machines in place before this election, and probably a lack of foresight on the part of Congress, than it is evil intentions of evil corporations.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
But then the Dems should stop claiming that they're really just interested in making sure all voting was honest and fair.
Maybe so. But honestly, I am interested in seeing all the votes counted. And I’m sure the Democrats in Congress are too. They are just paying close attention to Ohio because it was the state that they believed had the most voter fraud.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
What I take issue with is jumping from this to saying that there was in fact fraud. Which you actually said in your first post.
I cannot say that there was fraud 100%. But I can make an educated opinion on it. Why would the Republicans be fighting this investigation so much, if they had nothing to hide?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
In as much as everyone likes to blame the manufacturers of the machines, they built the machines they were asked to build.
Who specifically asked them to be built that way? The Democrats in Congress? I mean, the Republicans controlled Congress, so I think they would be the ones who decided how they would be built…correct?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
The whole paper trail deal came into the picture a little late for this election.
Maybe it did…but who cares? We should enforce a paper trail no matter what.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
It seems the lack of paper trail-producing machines is more a result of the hurry to get electronic voting machines in place before this election
No. The idea of creating voting machines started all the way back in 2000. They have had 4 years to figure it out.

Now please, tell me who OK’d the machines and who designed them? Because I doubt the Democrats had any control over it, since we are the minority in Congress and don’t control the Presidency. I’m curious to see how these voting machines came about…and you seem to know…

Also, I am so disgusted. The Republicans are now claiming irregularities in Washington after bitching us out for what we did in Ohio. Grrrr!

Originally posted by Overdose
Maybe so. But honestly, I am interested in seeing all the votes counted. And I’m sure the Democrats in Congress are too. They are just paying close attention to Ohio because it was the state that they believed had the most voter fraud.

See, but that's my point. The three hour wait to vote in Warren County was in Ohio, but no one cares.

Originally posted by Overdose
I cannot say that there was fraud 100%. But I can make an educated opinion on it. Why would the Republicans be fighting this investigation so much, if they had nothing to hide?

Because they don't want to take any chance that Bush might lose. And probably because they don't care. But I doubt they have anything to hide. But who knows? As far as investigating it goes, I'm with you.

Originally posted by Overdose
Who specifically asked them to be built that way? The Democrats in Congress? I mean, the Republicans controlled Congress, so I think they would be the ones who decided how they would be built…correct?

As far as I know, the law doesn't say "don't include a paper trail" - it just doesn't say anything about it at all. As far as who is to blame? I dunno - the Republicans had the majority but the impetus for the law was from the Democrats. Plenty of blame to go around, I think. Personally, I think the punchcard ballots work just fine if you're not stupid.

Originally posted by Echo2
You can bet it wont be changed on GB's watch.

Yea, im sure Bush DOESNT CARE at ALL about it, and any DEMOCRATIC candidate would do the RIGHT thing.....lol, partisan at its best. I know both sides are dirty, obviously echo doesnt.


And If democrats wanted to make sure "every vote counts"...they'd recount every state, not just ohio. The fact that so much emphasis is on ohio shows that the base of all these lawsuits is to either take away Bush's credibility or try to get their man in the white house....and not to have "every vote count"