The fundamentalist view is that every word in the Bible should be taken literally (well as literal as one can interpret, which is another issue..). This literal view is used to come up with all manner of things, from the nature of heaven to the sinful nature of homosexuals.

In another post I quoted some Bible verses that if taken literally would be absurd. That post was conveniently never addressed by the fundamentalists on this board.

I repeat them below, and ask the question - if you do not take all verses literally, how can you take ANY literally and is there at least a possibility that they were never intended to be taken literally 2000+ years after they were written?

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Literal = all kids that disrepect their parents should be killed

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

Literal inference = Slavery is ok

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

Literal inference = Best take care at the hairdressers

"At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts." (Deuteronomy 15:1)

Literal inference = 30 year mortgages are a sin

Originally posted by DrewM
I repeat them below, and ask the question - if you do not take all verses literally, how can you take ANY literally and is there at least a possibility that they were never intended to be taken literally 2000+ years after they were written?

I think there are those that take the Bible as a teaching/learning tool, they seem to be more open minded and seem to believe more in their faith.

Then there are those that take things word for word and would send us back 2000 years in our tech. They are allways wanting to get into others faces and push. They seem more like a cult then a real faith.

There are still a few left that take it word for word and don't believe in modern science. This does not mean they don't have faith they are just hard headed and even when they see something they won't go against what they were taught. Most of these folks are old or live a shutin life.

Originally posted by DrewM


"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)[/color]

Literal = all kids that disrepect their parents should be killed



I agree with this. Look at the money we could save by not having children. Do you know what it cost to raise one of those little brats?

We could have the life of ease without them. Opps, I forgot I need the youth to pay their social Security taxes so I can live my last days in ease.

old reb

Hello Drew,

That is the great thing about the bible, it can be all things to all people. It is a collection of stories admittedly written by men.

I sat in a Baptist class with 5 bible students and we read one passage and got 4 different hotly contested interpretations. I could see that each interpretation could possibly be correct.


old reb

Originally posted by DrewM
The fundamentalist view is that every word in the Bible should be taken literally (well as literal as one can interpret, which is another issue..). Very few people (if any) actually take every word in the Bible literally. There is a big difference between believing that it is true, and taking every word literally. It is subject to exegesis and must be taken in historical context.

First of all, we will note that all of the verses Drew quoted were taken from the jewish judicial and ceremonial laws. The ceremonial laws were fulfilled by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and are no longer binding. Their purpose was to show a need for a savior by showing that we were incapable of pleasing God on our own.

The judicial laws had a similar purpose but were also used to guide ancient Israel when she was under the direct headship of God. This is no longer the case (and it certainly isn't in the U.S.)

With that in mind, let's look at each verse:

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Literal = all kids that disrepect their parents should be killed
There was a time as mentioned above when the Leviticus 20:9 was to be obeyed: when God was directly ruling ancient Israel and speaking to her directly. Although cursing your parents is still a serious sin, we do not live in a theocracy, and can punish this activity as the civil authorities see fit.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

Literal inference = Slavery is ok
Note what I said above about the historical context. Also note that there were other laws on treating slaves humanely. The slavery mentioned here is not analogous to the slavery in the U.S. 200 years or so ago. Given the time, this is actually an example of God's mercy, since foreigners were generally slaughtered in many of the cultures of the time.

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

Literal inference = Best take care at the hairdressers
Again, this is a ceremonial law applicable only to that time in history.

"At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts." (Deuteronomy 15:1)

Literal inference = 30 year mortgages are a sin
A judicial law applicable to that particular time. Although it may or may not be a good idea in our time, we are not obligated to follow it today since we do not live in a country directly under the headship of God.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
Very few people (if any) actually take every word in the Bible literally. There is a big difference between believing that it is true, and taking every word literally. It is subject to exegesis and must be taken in historical context.

First of all, we will note that all of the verses Drew quoted were taken from the jewish judicial and ceremonial laws. The ceremonial laws were fulfilled by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and are no longer binding. Their purpose was to show a need for a savior by showing that we were incapable of pleasing God on our own.

The judicial laws had a similar purpose but were also used to guide ancient Israel when she was under the direct headship of God. This is no longer the case (and it certainly isn't in the U.S.)

With that in mind, let's look at each verse:


There was a time as mentioned above when the Leviticus 20:9 was to be obeyed: when God was directly ruling ancient Israel and speaking to her directly. Although cursing your parents is still a serious sin, we do not live in a theocracy, and can punish this activity as the civil authorities see fit.


Note what I said above about the historical context. Also note that there were other laws on treating slaves humanely. The slavery mentioned here is not analogous to the slavery in the U.S. 200 years or so ago. Given the time, this is actually an example of God's mercy, since foreigners were generally slaughtered in many of the cultures of the time.


Again, this is a ceremonial law applicable only to that time in history.


A judicial law applicable to that particular time. Although it may or may not be a good idea in our time, we are not obligated to follow it today since we do not live in a country directly under the headship of God.

How convenient.

Uncoolduck - thanks for your well thought out reply.

Just for the record - my post was not aimed at saying the Bible was untrue, only that it was not to be taken literally. This seems to be the consensus by all so far.

Of course, there are those that say every line should be taken literally. I remember Jere saying that heaven was paved with Gold literally - because it said so in the Bible.

It's clear, the Bible cannot be taken literally. I think it's interesting that Minister is totally silent on this issue - in the original post & in this one. Just goes to show - he has no answer and perhaps has realized that his literal approach to the Bible is fundamentally flawed.

I think the very few people who claim every word in the bible should be taken literally choose which verses they want to take literally and pretend not to see others.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
I think the very few people who claim every word in the bible should be taken literally choose which verses they want to take literally and pretend not to see others.

Amen, Brother! Hallayaua. I heard that!

old reb

I have been very busy, I do apologize. Yes I believe the bible should be taken literally, the explanation above to all questions was excellent. I also believe very much in modern science, but as science changes by the day, and old theories die and new ones are born I choose to live by the word of God through Jesus Christ.

The bible has science in it, there are facts stated in the bible that in its day were not known.

Blood is essential to life. Lev. 17:11-14

Both male and female possess seed of life. Gen. 3:15 22:18

Quarantine of certain diseases. Lev. 13:15

Human body can be opened for surgery. Gen. 2:21

Earth is round, day and night taking place simultaneously. Isa. 40:22, Prov. 8:27, Luke 17:34

The continents have floated away from a singular original land mass. Gen. 1:9, Gen. 10:25 (till 1970 science did not know this to be true).

I do believe to take the bible literally, and I am not a shut in...

What a total cop out.!!!!!

Yes you believe in taking the Bible literally - but you agree with uncoolduck.

UncoolDuck said that the Bible cannot be taken literally !

I do believe to take the bible literally, and I am not a shut in...

So - we can assume that you intend to kill your kids if they curse you and you do not have a 30 year mortgage? If you take the Bible literally as you say you do then explain how you avoid doing what the Bible says !!

Minister - what you say holds absolutely no water at all - the truth here is that you do not take the Bible literally - you only take the parts you want literally - cherry picking the verses you like and conveniently ignoring the verses you don't like.

What a Hypocrite you are ! :)

Use common sense when reading the bible...


How would you keep laws of a religion if you seperate church and state, we have our laws of the land.

I follow God's Law, I have allowed him into my heart and I continue to become a better person, I praise my God, I believe my God has sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins so we may be sinless in his eyes by just asking.

Why would you kill your kid for sinning if it can be forgiven, there are a lot of verses that are talking about the spiritual death not death of the body.

You say I hand pick verses to believe or not believe, but you give one line without the rest, out of context and say look there's my proof......

It's fairly solid proof Mate.

You push Bible verses like they are going out style & say this means this and this means that - using it as a defense to every challenge to your line of thought. Holding up literal Bible verses as a moral authority given to you from God.

Yet when faced with some obvious verses that you don't follow and have no intention of following - you twist and squirm, explain away how the verse is not relevant and basically do the opposite of your approach with the verses you like.

This is not an attack on your belief in Jesus etc - it's merely a highlight of how your fundamentalist style is a house made of cards that reeks of hypocracy.

Maybe you need to take a look at your approach - if you are honest with yourself you can only come to one conclusion - the Bible is not to be taken literally and is certainly open to interpretation, epsecially 2000 years after it was written.

There is a lot of precedent in the Bible that portions of it (at least) are figurative.

I think a good lesson on Biblical exegesis can be found in Genesis 41. Here, Pharoah had 2 dreams and Joseph interpreted them.

If the dreams were to be taken literally, Pharoah should've expected to see 7 lean sheaves of wheat rise up and consume 7 fat sheaves. Then he should've witnessed 7 lean cows rise up and eat 7 fat cows in some field somewhere.

That's not what happened. What happened was, Egypt experienced 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine. The dreams served to illustrate this.

Thus, the dreams were true, but were not literal. I think much of the Bible is this way. (See also Jesus' parables, other dreams, books of prophecy, such as Ezekiel, Revelation, etc.)

Now, this doesn't take away from the Bible, and I would like to state unequivocally my personal conviction that it is true. However, it is subject to interpretation, and we need to be careful of these interpretations because of our fallible exegetical skills. Sometimes, we just have to do the best we can while acknowledging that we don't know all the answers.

I say its the message or theme that is important when reading bible stories......

So, it seems to be fairly well agreed - the Bible should not be taken literally, is open to some interpretation. In this I am not saying the Bible is not the word of God, nor true etc - that is a whole different discussion.

I would say...

When reading scripture or being objected to a religion...you should consult God in everything. If one thing is wrong, and anothers right. allow him to show you this.

mmmm. You guys are really changing your tune.

Now you must pray for guidance on what the Bible means.

Ha Ha

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I would say...

When reading scripture or being objected to a religion...you should consult God in everything. If one thing is wrong, and anothers right. allow him to show you this.
------------------------------------------------------
Jere, for a long time I read the Bible and prayed to the Supreme Being (God) to show me truth.
He gave me a knowing that religions were of men, for men and by men. The true God endorses no religion.

I considered this my answer.

To save Jere the typing - I can tell you what the answer will be.

Satan gave you your answer no doubt.

Thats where you use common sense, do you take a parable literally no......but it represents something to be taken serious....Learn what context the text in the bible is used before saying it can't be taken serious...You show a fundamental lack of knowledge when it comes to this subject...

I may show a lack of knowledge but I am now very knowledgable about your approach thanks to your posts

I'm not trying to be clever - I'm just relaying back what you have said.

- The Bible is to be taken literally
- You can't understand the Bible unless you are saved
- Somethings don't have to be taken literally
- The Bible is to be taken literally
- You have to use common sense to see what is literal or not
- It depends on the context as to if you can take it literally.

It's as clear as mud. Either you take the Bible literally word for word or you don't - it's a yes or no answer required - not all your yimmin and yawing.

You've answered the question. You cannot take the Bible literally - you have to use common sense (which is entirely a subjective thing). So - perhaps you can make it a New Years resolution to stop telling people you take the Bible literally word for word when you don't.

Burn!!

Booo-urns........

Originally posted by DrewM
To save Jere the typing - I can tell you what the answer will be.

Satan gave you your answer no doubt.

Yes,
I anticipated this answer from Jere or Minister.
My next statement would be that maybe God answered me and Satan answered them.

:D

Maybe God and Satan are the same.

Like Jekyll and Hyde, or conflicting personalities of one fragmented entity.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Yes,
I anticipated this answer from Jere or Minister.
My next statement would be that maybe God answered me and Satan answered them.

Which would be an entirely logical response, but unfortuanately that logic doesn't fly very far with people that invalidate every personal experience of God unless it matches their specific & precise limitations on the nature of God.

The nature of God that has been predetermined by by a particular religious practice. Heathen like ceremonies with one trying to out do another with their out-loud prayers to idols of crosses and statues. These people dare to say that we are lost. That we will suffer eternally in hell. Yet, they are blind to the true nature of God.

Another post spoke of "back when God ran Israel."They actually believe that God physically ran a country. That God destroyed one person in favor of another. They use terms like "Gods chosen people" like God did not create everyone. That he is a father that has favorite children. Today that would be a bad father. These same people would be condemning of a father that killed some of his children in favor of a chosen child and would demand that he be sent to prison.

If God physically came to this speck of dust, earth, I feel he would tell these followers of mans religions that they knew him not.

I feel sorry for people that think they are first because of the way they worship and all others are second.

Couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
These people dare to say that we are lost. That we will suffer eternally in hell.
And you are just as judgmental when you say:
Yet, they are blind to the true nature of God.
You may be convinced that you are privy to the true nature of God but you are just stating your opinion and it is no more valid than anyone else's.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
And you are just as judgmental when you say:

You may be convinced that you are privy to the true nature of God but you are just stating your opinion and it is no more valid than anyone else's.
-------------------------------------------

Thank you Uncool,
Privy would mean that I am the only one that understands the true nature. I blush, But unfortunately there are millions that agree with me.

I am in agreement that the opinion that we will burn in hell is merely an invalid opinion as mine is that we will not.

Have a nice week-end :)

You can tell a by the persons works it they are of satan or of God.

you have far from burned me, yes literal.........common sense has nothing to do with not taking it literal......parables are not literal statements, try learning reading and comprehension.

Originally posted by minister
You can tell a by the persons works it they are of satan or of God.

you have far from burned me, yes literal.........common sense has nothing to do with not taking it literal......parables are not literal statements, try learning reading and comprehension.
-------------------------------
What works would that be and by whose standards?
You take a fellow like me. I would never harm another intentionally, I help some one in need whenever I can, I take care of my family with love and devotion, I believe in a Supreme Force, yet, I do not believe in nor support mans religions. In your opinion would that make me a person of God or Satan according to your beliefs??

As far as your second statement your double negatives about parables makes it sound like double talk! Uncomprehensive and showing little learning and comprehension.

By the way I'll be going fishing Sunday morning and enjoying a day in God's nature. Another by-product of not recognizing mans religions. I don't have to attend those danged meetings!

Originally posted by minister
You can tell a by the persons works it they are of satan or of God.

you have far from burned me, yes literal.........common sense has nothing to do with not taking it literal......parables are not literal statements, try learning reading and comprehension.

You've degraded from literal word of God high horse approach to a much more watered down subjective angle. I like it. :)

You mention parables - but parables are stated as parables - they are stories with a message. You can't use these as your example - we are talking about hard hitting in your face verses that tell you what God's rules are - you know like the one about killing your kids if they back chat and the other ones you quote. These are no parables.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

You take a fellow like me. I would never harm another intentionally, I help some one in need whenever I can, I take care of my family with love and devotion, I believe in a Supreme Force, yet, I do not believe in nor support mans religions. In your opinion would that make me a person of God or Satan according to your beliefs??

If you do not purposely acknowledge minister's Christian "god" and that "god" alone, then it does not matter that you help people in need whenever you can, or that you take care of your family with love and devotion.

According to minister's belief system, you are going to be with Satan for eternity.

Originally posted by Freethinker
If you do not purposely acknowledge minister's Christian "god" and that "god" alone, then it does not matter that you help people in need whenever you can, or that you take care of your family with love and devotion.

According to minister's belief system, you are going to be with Satan for eternity.
-------------------------------------------
I am sure you are right Free...........Boy, I hope Satan likes to fish.
Heck, pull those fish out of that lake of fire and already cooked.

It's not just my God, I talk about the one true God.

Originally posted by minister
It's not just my God, I talk about the one true God.
--------------
When you speak of this vengeful, non Christian hateing, stick um in the firey pit, Being I wonder sometimes if we are speaking of the same God.
Mine is loving, natural, and loves everyone equally. Has no restrictions because of the religion they have. Would never harm anyone, regardless of the human mistakes they make. Controls the natural order of the universe with love for everything. Upon death from the earth welcomes all back, to all that is, equally, knowing that the life experiences have expanded their awareness.

Dan,

Where did you come up with your beliefs? Our God does love all. He is our creator and deserves the respect he seeks. Jesus died on the cross for us. If you are born twice you die once. If you are born just once, you die twice. That's the way it has to be.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Dan,

Where did you come up with your beliefs? Our God does love all. He is our creator and deserves the respect he seeks. Jesus died on the cross for us. If you are born twice you die once. If you are born just once, you die twice. That's the way it has to be.
----------------

Not from one book( hoping it is correct) jere, but from the things I have experienced here in this life.

Dan,

First of all, before you think otherwise...I respect you, and I dont want any hard feelings to come out of this. So, dont take a harsh tone out of these posts.

Anyhow.....there is no doubt in my head that you have expierenced the work of a supreme loving being. Thats a great thing!!

All christian means it little christ, God doesn't care what you call yourself as long as you aknowledge what he has done for all of us.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

Anyhow.....there is no doubt in my head that you have expierenced the work of a supreme loving being.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Would that be the same "loving" being that will throw someone into a fiery pit of torture for ETERNITY if they fail to please said being?

If your invisible friend represents "love" then love is nothing. Yeeechhh.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:13-15

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Dan,

First of all, before you think otherwise...I respect you, and I dont want any hard feelings to come out of this. So, dont take a harsh tone out of these posts.

Anyhow.....there is no doubt in my head that you have expierenced the work of a supreme loving being. Thats a great thing!!

Jere, I did not think I was using a harsh tone with you.

Originally posted by minister
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:13-15

"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."
Proverbs 8/13

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it. " Benjamin Franklin

"The Church says the Earth is flat but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church. " Ferdinand Magellen

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectively on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. " Albert Einstein

The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Abraham Lincoln

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Jere, I did not think I was using a harsh tone with you.

Dan,

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant for you not to think my tone was meant to be harsh.