Should this thread be in the politics section?
Anyway, I want to focus on the religious standpoint here. I found this and wanted to share it with you guys:

***

“We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.” Golda Meir

Israel receives $3 billion in military support every year. Every year, thousands of innocent (Palestinian) people die, shot by American bullets, bombed by American planes and isolated by American corporations. They get kicked out of their homes so American Jews can move in. They try to defend themselves, and they are the terrorists?


The wall

…is nothing compared with the Berlin-wall… much longer, higher and thicker. Built to keep the “terrorists” out… in fact, it’s built to keep every Palestinian away from their own land, the land which is now occupied by the American Jews. They come with (American) tanks and bulldozers and completely demolish every Palestinian house, and Mosque (which is completely ILLEGAL by UN conventions). And new houses are built, Jews move in, and a wall is built to protect them.

When I was in Palestine, I witnessed how the Israeli soldiers treated the Palestinians. They would usually get in front of a Mosque and tell the people they don’t like that they CAN’T enter the Mosque to pray. Sometimes they’ll urinate and throw garbage at the Mosque, and block the door with garbage as well, so Muslims can’t pray there. They would yell insulting racist terms to everyone, men women and children. They stop people for no reason and take (“confiscate”) their wallets, ID’s and so on. Never to return anything.

Sometimes there would be a check point, where everyone is searched before they entered a certain area… Palestinians and foreign people were stopped and sometimes questioned for hours, while the Israeli civilians just passed through… with ease! Palestinians cannot even move freely in their own country.

I’ve seen them drag women down the street by their hair.

I’ve seen them stopping an ambulance with injured people inside, and not allowing it to pass to get to the hospital, because they need a clearance from “higher authority”… which takes at least 3.-4 hours… the patient usually has no chance. There are no working ambulances in Palestine anymore. If a doctor (or anyone with a little knowledge in medicine) lived nearby, you’re lucky… otherwise you’re doomed.

I’ve seen them break an 11-year olds arms while “arresting him” and just laugh at it… taking pictures of the bones sticking out and selling them to vulgar Internet sites…

I’ve seen them shoot at buildings were people lived, just for practice shooting…


And the worst part… Every gun, every bullet, every tank, every fighter-jet they have is “Made in America” …


Can you imagine my hatred towards them?


---
Update. By "them" I mean the Israeli Government and the U.S. Government

I have never said I hate "jews" or "israelis" ... I am writing what I have seen with my own eyes, if you can't handle the truth, do not post here, I will definetly ignore it.

***

By ghaib (a european Muslim)





Makes you :) think

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety




Makes you :) think Yeah, makes me think that the author of that piece never mentioned the military intentionally targeting civilians. It also didnt mention that Israelis strap bombs on their body and blowing up places people eat and buses. Oh, thats right. The author never mentioned these things because it's the palestinians who are doing them.

Hello Innocent Sweety,

I can understand you hating the Jews when you are bombarded with propaganda like this. How could you know any different?

Propaganda is a very important arm of war and Islam is at war with Judism because they can't allow any belief other than Islam.

Israel survives only by military defense. Muslim nations have ganged up on Israel and failed to destory it and they inflame all Muslims and especially Palestine Muslims to kill as many Jews as possible.

Check points and the wall have drastically reduced the number of suicide bombers and saved thousands of lives and many more injurys.

When a suicide bomber kills innocents, his familys home is bulldozed by the Jews. They bulldozed houses for 200 yards from the Egyptian line to keep the land clear of tunnels for smuggling in weapons from Egypt. They bulldozed houses in areas were missiles were being fired at Israelis.

Israel has won every war but they only have to lose one war to be exterminated.

I won't try to change your beliefs but I will give my side of the argument.

old reb

I think this is more political than religious, but anyway..

HaVoK
That's besides the point..
And btw, if you compare the torture the Israeli's practice to the defense the Palestinian's practice, you'll find that the Israeli's do it much more often.

old-reb
Propaganda..? I really don't think that has anything to do with this. I never said that I think the same way ghaib does (I do agree with him, granted) yet I know that there're two sides to a tale.
You say that Muslim nations have ganged up on Israel.. Okay, let's go back a bit in history, around 1948, when the Jews occupied Palestine and claimed it as their own and called it "Israel". You see this is the reason that Palestinians defend themselves, they are defending their homeland + religion. The Israeli's have tried to completely erase Islam.
^ I think you feel the same way about this as I do, it's WRONG.
You said it urself.. The Israeli's have done almost everything possible to stop Palestinian's to gain possession of weapons or anything that can be used against the Israeli's to "protect themselves". And yet, they do all this to the Palestinians.
It's like putting a rabbit and a lion in a cage, giving the rabbit a stick to defend himself with.

I'm not trying to change anyone's belief here either, I'm just giving you the other side of the story. :) I welcome arguments.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety


old-reb

You say that Muslim nations have ganged up on Israel.. Okay, let's go back a bit in history, around 1948, when the Jews occupied Palestine and claimed it as their own and called it "Israel". You see this is the reason that Palestinians defend themselves, they are defending their homeland + religion. The Israeli's have tried to completely erase Islam.


This map shows how Israel is about to erase the religion of the Arabs. Map only shows Arab Muslims.




http://www.science.co.il/images/maps/Arab-Countries.gif

Sweety,

In your dissertation about the evils of Isralis, you left out the part where the jews eat palestinian babies.

My main question is, why doesn't Jordan and Syria cede land to the Palestinians? It would solve a lot of problems, I think.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety


“We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours.” Golda Meir




The wall

…is nothing compared with the Berlin-wall… much longer, higher and thicker. Built to keep the “terrorists” out… in fact, it’s built to keep every Palestinian away from their own land, the land which is now occupied by the American Jews.



If you remember, this is what was happening before Israel built the wall. It is not legal for Israels to build the wall but they built it anywayl and stopped daily terrorist attacks. This angered all the middle east when they could no longer kill, with ease, what they call dogs and monkeys.

-----------------------------


"Suicide bomber kills 3," the headline reports.

It's become an all-too-familiar story in urban settings in Israel, as terrorists wage a war of attrition against beleaguered civilians surrounded by a sea of hostility.

But the rising death toll from such atrocities is only half the story, says a radiologist from Evanston Northwestern Healthcare in Illinois. The other, untold part is the horrors the survivors of such gruesome attacks must endure – sometimes for the rest of their lives.


Front view of a pelvis imbedded with nails and metal fragments.

X-rays taken from victims of suicide bombings reveal pieces of metallic fragments embedded in their skin, muscles, organs and bones, says Dr. Michael Messing, who visited the victims of suicide bombings while at the Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem. Suicide bombers pack their bombs with nails and other objects so even survivors of suicide bombings will suffer from the bomb's effects.

"They're trying to maximize the number of people they kill and injure," said Messing of the terrorists.

These bombs, which Messing says are sometimes funded by Palestinian authorities including Yasser Arafat, are packed with spikes, nails, screws, nuts, bullets, mortar, ball bearings and even rat poison.

"What were originally created for constructive purposes have been transformed by Arab terrorists into cruel, deadly, destructive projectiles," said Messing. "The nails fly like bullets, head first, penetrating skin, flesh and bone. The unprecedented wave of suicide bombings has presented a whole new set of medical challenges."


Front view of an abdomen imbedded with nails and metal fragments.

Rabbi Immanuel Yosef Legomsky is a neurotherapist at Jerusalem's Menucha v'Simcha Neurofeedback Clinic. He said treating Israeli victims of Palestinian terror "is the major mental and physical health problem here today."

The treatment of the Palestinians sounds terrible, it really does.

But garbage in the door of a mosque, taking people's ID cards, racist abuse etc - although it cannot be justified, it is nothing in comparision to Palestinians persuading kids to strap on bombs with nails and ball bearings and then walking into populated areas and blowing themselves up. This activity is sub-human. No miss-treatment can ever even begin to justify it.

If the Palestians stopped doing these things - their life would be better and they would have Peace with Isreal.

I would move, relocate.

A NEW STATE IS BORN

The official date given by the United Nations in their partition vote for the creation of the two new entities was May 15th, 1948.

Thus, May 14th was to be the last day of the British Mandate. At 4 p.m., the British lowered their flag and immediately the Jews raised their own.

It was a flag designed in 1897 by the First Zionist Congress. It was white (the color of newness and purity), and it had two blue stripes (the color of heaven) like the stripes of a tallit, the prayer shawl, which symbolized the transmission of Jewish tradition. In its center was the Star of David.

Thus on May 14, 1948 at 4:00 p.m., Hay Iyar, the 5th of Iyar, Israel declared itself a state.

On Erev Shabbat, 5th Iyar 5708, 14th day of May 1948, Israel became a state.

And immediately it was plunged into war as five of the neighboring Arab states attacked. These Arab states had previously voted against the UN partition of Palestine and now simply refused to recognize that historic and democratic vote.

Little Israel, which had virtually no heavy artillery, no tanks, no airplanes, had to defend itself against Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq! That's 600,000 Jews against 45 million Arabs, while the United Nations did nothing.

And yet the Jews won. It was nothing short of a miracle.

But the victory was bittersweet. The Old City of Jerusalem -- including the Jewish Quarter and access to the Kotel, the Western (Wailing) Wall -- fell to the Jordanians. The Jews were driven out of the Old City, and their homes and synagogues looted and destroyed.

NEW BORDERS

The War of Independence had lasted 13 months. Some 6,000 Israelis died or a full 1% of the Jewish population at that time.

(If that had happened in America, proportionally, 2.5 million people would have died. As upset as America was about the Vietnam War, it lost 52,000 soldiers in that war.)

The War of Independence was Israel's costliest war.

Mt. Herzl, the national cemetery, is full of graves without names. These are graves of Holocaust survivors who made it to Israel only to be handed a gun in order to fight for the survival of the Jewish nation. No one had time to get to know their names. They went down in history only as Yossi or Hershel or Moshe. It is a tragic thing to see all these graves marked "Plony" (which is the Israeli version of "John Doe.")

The end of the war defined the borders of the new State of Israel in a radically new way. The borders were not the ones that the UN defined in their partition vote. In sum total, Israel got more land, though it lost the Old City of Jerusalem.

POPULATION

Already, at the time of the UN partition vote, Arab residents of Palestine began fleeing in anticipation of war. The first to go were the 30,000 of the wealthiest. By January 1948 the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked other Arab countries to bar entry of refugees because the Arab exodus from Palestine was so alarming.

At the time of the declaration of the State of Israel, 472,000 Arabs fled as war broke out.

At the same time, 820,000 Jews were forced to flee Arab lands such as Syria, Iraq, Iran etc. Most of the property of these Jews, many of whom were wealthy people, was confiscated, never to be returned. (Of these Jews, 526,000 settled in Israel.)

Once the war was over, the population began to rise by leaps and bounds with Jewish immigrants coming not only from Arab countries, but also from other states and more recently from Ethiopia and Russia.

* 1948: 600,000 Jews

* 1956: 1.2 million Jews

* 1973: 1.8 million Jews

* 1999: 4.7 million Jews

The population of Israel, since the founding of the state, has increased many-fold.


PLO

The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) was founded in January 1964 by Ahmed Shukeiry as a representative organization of the Arab refugees of the 1948 war. It was never a peaceful organization, however. In fact, Shukeiry once predicted an Arab victory over Israel, saying: "Those [Jews] who survive will remain in Palestine. I estimate that none of them will survive."

The first and consistent aim of the PLO was the elimination of the State of Israel and its replacement by the State of Palestine.

(It is important to note that a State of Palestine had never existed in history. The Arab people living in this land during the days of the Ottoman Empire were simply Arabs with no national identity. After the Ottoman Empire collapsed, in the days of the British Mandate, both Jews and Arabs were considered "Palestinians" by the British.)

old-reb
Hang on, don't go anywhere :) I can counter your replies, just give me some time to do enough research.

Darth Be'lal
For other countries to give a piece of their land for their fellow Arabs? Sure, good idea. Unlikely to happen though, greed overcomes man.

DrewM
They tried for peace, yet got bad behavior from their opposers as a result.
The two of them should work on this, it's a two-way street.

Dan Fussell
That's what most of them do.

old-reb

So you're telling me that one weaponless nation defeated FIVE powerful nations?
:D and Santa Claus exists!

Oh, and here:
http://www.un.org/unrwa/overview/index.html

^ it'll prove to you that it was Palestine before Israel, and that Israel colonized the Palestinian's.


About the suicide bombs..
Well, if you compare what the Israeli's do to what the Palestinian's do in self-defense...
I don't think :) I have to finish that sentence