I am curious to see the responses. I know there are some religions that believe we are alllllll sinners.......

I have a reason for asking......i just want to see your answers before i go into my thought.

thank you

Hard to say Cree, first one would have to determine what true sin consists of, or if such does truely exist.
Apparantly from the view of religions any act or thought not consistant with the accepted practices of that particular religion is a sin.
There-fore I would ask the question as to whether sin would exist if religion did not exist.

If a person did not believe in religion there would be no measuring stick to identify the sin therefore he could not sin.

A religious person should primarily be conserned with whether he/she sinned acording to the rules they have voluntarily fenced themselves in with. To violate their own rules would be a sin to them or their condeming associates.
Usually religious rules are so much against human nature that it is impossible for the followers not to sin. Therefore the rules and methods of forgiveness are usually written into the religion so as not to loose followers.

How about a non secular question of the same vein.......Does EVIL really exist? What makes an act evil or an individual evi?

THose of you familiar with my baby's story micht pick up what I am getting at.

I pesonally think it impossible for some individuals to sin as according to the family christian background that AI was raised amongst.

And Dan and Echo, both raise the bar to the thinking of the actual parameters of good and evil.

I welcome the other side to convince me......

I'd have to think that those that lack the mental capacity to know what they're doing are not capable of sin. Sin (in my personal opinion) requires a desire to commit the sinful act.

or what about with PHYSICAL limitations?

I have a child that has never had to be scolded or punished. She is not physically capable of getting into trouble, nor can she talk yet.........

Her sister on the other hand, by no means a mean spirit, but spirited, and in need of different boundaries.

Don't you have to be physically cabale to perform an act of sin?


She is the purest , most innocent , fragile creature I've had the pleasure of knowing. And awe-inspiring.

Cree, A Rose cannot sin. Even by the Gardener's standards.

Originally posted by creetwins
Don't you have to be physically cabale to perform an act of sin?


Depends on the sin, I guess. There are sins that are more thought-based, like coveting and that sort of thing.

But aren't people born with sin?

The Bible tells us that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So yes, I do believe that we are all sinners. This is not to say, that we are just recklessly sinful. Going from one evil to the other...but even a nonchristian should agree we are non too perfect, and slip up from time to time.

I can honestly say that in 63 years, I have never sinned once, I have never even entertained a sinful thought.

However, I did try to make a mistake but there was none that would show me how it is done.

It ain't easy being perfect in an imperfect world.

I wonder where I will go when I die?

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
I can honestly say that in 63 years, I have never sinned once, I have never even entertained a sinful thought.

However, I did try to make a mistake but there was none that would show me how it is done.

It ain't easy being perfect in an imperfect world.

I wonder where I will go when I die?

old reb

Watch out old reb. Remember what they did to the last guy who was perfect?

Crucified him and built an entire religion out of his life and death. You could end up being the next mesiah. lol.

I cannot speak to "sin" beause I don't belive in it. However I do believe that for an act to be evil it must have intent behind it. For example, killing an animal because you are hungary would not be evil. Killing an animal just to watch it die would be evil.

All humans have an evil inside. Evil is born out of our instincts and how we go about useing them.

This can often be aligned with the "seven deadly sins" Pride
Envy, Anger, Avarice (greed), Sadness, Gluttony, Lust.

I don't know about sadnes, but each of the others when conntroled and used properly can improve our lives or if they are not controlled they can become evil.

Our instinct for food, belongings, sex, pride, dominance, security can all become evil if not controlled.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The Bible tells us that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So yes, I do believe that we are all sinners. This is not to say, that we are just recklessly sinful. Going from one evil to the other...but even a nonchristian should agree we are non too perfect, and slip up from time to time.

Does your slipping up from time to time include your under age drinking?

Originally posted by Echo2
example, killing an animal because you are hungary would not be evil. Killing an animal just to watch it die would be evil.

I do agree with this if a person is of sound mind. What if a person just doesn't get the big picture and they kill an animal because it seems right to them? Maybe they see a certain animal as a pain, example rats, mice, coyote, etc... If they kill these animals because they are destructive that is one thing, but what happens when they enjoy it? How many people have killed a mouse etc.. and laughed when the deed was done? "there that'll teach ya, you little prick ha ha ha!!!" How about these guys that kill an animal because it has a nice set of horns, or because it is the big bad bear, lion, or elephant? Maybe they are going to use the food{good} but their real reason for killing was for a trophy, would this be right? Humans have created the sin thing not God, the real sins of the world are the ones done against nature and out of cruel intention.

Originally posted by mad dog
Humans have created the sin thing not God, the real sins of the world are the ones done against nature and out of cruel intention.

We need some sturcture about what is right and what is wrong. The expericence of history has taught us what is destructive and what is necessary to survive and prosper. Sin is harmful to society and the youth must be taught right from wrong.

Without knowing what is sin you could kill you neighbor to take his pretty wife and home. Why not?

I saw on the news about some boys that killed a young man for his new truck. They told the police that they found the truck and now it was theirs. Now they get a lesson on sin; it would have been so much easier to have learned about sin in Church or school or the home.

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
We need some sturcture about what is right and what is wrong. The expericence of history has taught us what is destructive and what is necessary to survive and prosper. Sin is harmful to society and the youth must be taught right from wrong.

I do agree, this should come from the family, neighbors, society. There will allways be the few bad apples, but even people from 10,000 years ago new right from wrong. I would say if a person believes in sin then the worst sin is greed. People kill because it makes them feel powerfull, for money, etc...

Without knowing what is sin you could kill you neighbor to take his pretty wife and home. Why not?

Against nature or cruel intention, this is common sense. If humans decide to live in a world were you can kill your neighbor then they also know their neighbor could just as easy kill them. Animals of all sizes and shapes live under a rule ours is just more complex.


I saw on the news about some boys that killed a young man for his new truck. They told the police that they found the truck and now it was theirs. Now they get a lesson on sin; it would have been so much easier to have learned about sin in Church or school or the home.

Something like this should have been taught by the parents{or all of the above} and the boys should have taken the 3seconds to figure out what they were doing was wrong. Sounds like they felt the power of killing and the greed to go along with it.

"Sin" is mathematical. Society cannot function on lying, cheating, stealing, and murder.

If everyone was a shoplifter, how could there be supermarkets?No supermarkets: no cities.

God set forth the rules long ago, we are all sinners....Show me a sinless person and I will show you a liar.....Just because you tell yourself sin is not real does not make it so......



***There is no next messiah, there was but one and he has already come.***

The way i see it is that the next Messiah in my eyes will be the scientist who cures Aids, or the group whom brings relief and development to the starving third world countrys that will last for centurys, or the scietist whom creates prosthetic hearts and other organs for helping victims of trauma wounds and allowing them to continue life, or the person who eliminates the ability to have cancer etc etc.

Those are all Miracles in my eyes, and a damn sight more productive than turning water to wine. If any one of the above people didnt believe in God and thus they are "sinners" it looks to me like the axis of God/Heaven is seriously screwed.

without god that scientist wouldn't discover that great break through, God is present in all that is done....There will be no next messiah, he has already come and fulfilled prophecy and died for our sins, why would he have to die twice...

Why did he have to die for our sins? I never understood this and I'm confident that most Christians are a bit confused about it too.

Can you explain this in clear language (not Bible verses unless you are using them to back up a point)

Originally posted by minister
without god that scientist wouldn't discover that great break through, God is present in all that is done....There will be no next messiah, he has already come and fulfilled prophecy and died for our sins, why would he have to die twice...
---------------------------------------------

But, just what if, he did come and his name was Buddah?
Or was an Indian holy man?

God being holy, expects us to be good and follow his rules. Before Christ, people had to burn offerings to cover the sin. Basically it's like giving something up for the Glory of God, but still everyone sinned and continued to grow worse with time. More and more people were wicked and ungodly so rather than let everyone just go to hell, a sacrifice for our sins was sent, Jesus Christ. Then by his death being that he was Gods son and had never sinned he covered all our sins in the sight of the father as long as we ask him to do so.

Does this explain the it for you....You may not agree but does it atleast help.

I don't necessarily disagree - it's not something I could disagree with, although I can question it.

God being holy, expects us to be good and follow his rules.

Why? If God made all this, why did he make something imperfect that he wanted to love him via a choice? It sounds like God was a lonely being and we serve a purpose like a puppet to the master.

Basically it's like giving something up for the Glory of God,
Same question - why?

More and more people were wicked and ungodly so rather than let everyone just go to hell
But didn't God make hell and all the rules? seems unjust and unfair.

Then by his death being that he was Gods son and had never sinned he covered all our sins in the sight of the father as long as we ask him to do so.
Why? This really doesn't make an ounce of sense to me. How could "God" have a son? Really - none of this makes any sense to me. I think if it ever were to make any sense the whole thing would be some parable for a deeper meaning.

Why do you believe all this stuff? There has to be some reason beyond the Bible - the Bible is a book. There has to be some un-earthly thing that makes you believe all this hook line and sinker. And even then, lets say you have been "touched by God" - what about all those non-christians who have been "touched by God" also.

You never answer these things in real terms. I genuinely look forward to real responses. Here's a deal - you respond on these questions in down to earth real language that makes sense & I won't infer you are dumb in future posts.

To start it does not bother me for you to say I am dumb for my beliefs.

God had a son by coming upon mary with the holy spirit, if God made humans do you not think he could just make a woman of his choosing carry a piece of God with her in human flesh (this was foretold in the old testament years before).

when we were first made, we were perfect without sin. When the only commandment was broken we were guilty of sin as defined by the bible. I can not answer why God has done all that he has I wish I could. God does give you the choice but the whole time loving you and trying to get you to accept him via your own choice. You can not praise someone with all your heart if you are forced to without choice. Thats not to say there are not consequences for our choices.

Its like having a child (as we are children of his) and telling your child no they can't go to their friends party, they have a choice to listen to their father or to go anyway, if they go anyway they know there will be consequences. If we set rules for our children for their own good why would God (our father) not set rules for us.

Yes God made all, I can not explain all your questions but I will try.

I didn't just one day wake up and say well I guess I'll buy into that, I read alot of books, researched religion (not just christianity), researched science. I went to church after church and it never seemed like any of these churches were meeting for the right reasons, it always seemed like put a dollar in the box.

I had made up my mind before stepping foot in my church I attend now that I believed fully that Jesus not only was alive but was the fulfillment of all the old testament prophecies as the coming messiah. When I started going to my church, it was so different, it's not about money, it's about people coming to know God. My preacher is not trying to just get people to come to church that alone does nothing, its Faith .

Here is what I find hard to stomach.

God created man
Gave him free will
Presents him with a choice - 'love' me by free will or suffer in hell

This would be like a parent saying to a child
"Do what I want or never come back here....if you decide to do what I want by this date xyz then you can come back, after that you can never come back"

I think that is terrible. It goes against everything that we as people would consider to be good - therefore, given that I think that any God would not be like that, I have to reject it.

On the other hand - I can also look at that logic and see that type of pattern in cults and the like - a fear driven message. I think this comes from man, not God.

This I believe is a rational and reasonable way to look at this. It's not unreasonable to look at that and say - that paints a picture of a selfish and cruel God.

You are aloud your opinion, I can see what your saying. It's not that way God is all Loving, he wishes to see none perish. It comes down to God being holy and if we are unworthy in the sight of God how can we spend eternity with him, thats where Jesus comes in.

I know what your saying, but I do not believe that it is selfish or cruel, As you read you will find God has given man many chances and still they reject him and do as they wish. No matter what your sin it says that just by asking Jesus to save you and mean it that you will be saved. why would a cruel God make it so easy to get to heaven, ask and your in.

The message is nothing like a cult, it is not fear driven. The entire gospel is about love and brotherhood. Every story comes back to God just wanting us to be with him and to love us.

Ultimately I think the Christian message is a parable or a description of something wider. It is true that there is a lot of good within Christianity - just like there is a lot of good in Islam, Budhism etc etc.

Man needs religion to have a framework to understand things - the problem arises for some when man forgets that a framework is just an assistant, not the whole picture. There is really no way we can understand the nature of the universe in such simple terms.

Taken on face value - the christian message makes little sense and surely oversimplifies things that are probably beyond our comprehension.

Taken as an archetypal message - there probably is some truth in it.

Thats probably the nicest post I have seen from you, atleast to me. I understand what you are saying, that is definately how I viewed it 3 or 4 years ago so I know what you mean.

Originally posted by minister


The message is nothing like a cult, it is not fear driven. The entire gospel is about love and brotherhood. Every story comes back to God just wanting us to be with him and to love us.
------------------------------------

Telling followers that if they do not follow the teachings of Christianity they will eternally burn in a lake of fire is not fear driven?

It is a consequence, So this holy and all loving God should have no standards....let the murders in, rapist, thieves, where do you draw the line.....God did draw the line, some people make not like that line but it is there.

No I do not believe it is fear driven, when I accepted Jesus Christ there was no Fear only this overwhelming feeling of love.

Originally posted by minister
It is a consequence, So this holy and all loving God should have no standards....let the murders in, rapist, thieves, where do you draw the line.....God did draw the line, some people make not like that line but it is there.

No I do not believe it is fear driven, when I accepted Jesus Christ there was no Fear only this overwhelming feeling of love.

How do you know these people aren't let into Heaven?

If they commit murder and then decide to follow Christianity and are saved, what good is that for mankind if they get into Heaven anyway?

Sounds flawed to me.

If they are truly saved and believe yes they can be forgiven, but if truly saved it would not be an action they would do again.

Originally posted by minister
If they are truly saved and believe yes they can be forgiven, but if truly saved it would not be an action they would do again.


Why does it matter that they wouldn't do it again?

It's like, pardon the pun, getting away with murder.

How can anyone do anything that heinous and ever be let into Heaven?

Thanks for answering my questions.


Oops, you didn't mention how you know they don't get into Heaven without Christianity after murder.

There is no sin to great for Jesus Christ to cover for us, we just have to believe it. When you believe your life does start changing, you would know if someone really believed or was doing it for show.

The way I know how they are not getting into heaven is by their actions. The bible says that all are guilty of sin, there are none good no not one. By calling on the name of the lord and asking to be forgiven you can make it to heaven. The reason I know the murders aren't going to heaven is that God could not be around imperfection or unholiness, that is why jesus was sent and died.

Originally posted by minister
There is no sin to great for Jesus Christ to cover for us, we just have to believe it. When you believe your life does start changing, you would know if someone really believed or was doing it for show.

The way I know how they are not getting into heaven is by their actions. The bible says that all are guilty of sin, there are none good no not one. By calling on the name of the lord and asking to be forgiven you can make it to heaven. The reason I know the murders aren't going to heaven is that God could not be around imperfection or unholiness, that is why jesus was sent and died.


Ok but, what good does that do society?

Someone can kill intentionally for years and then go to Heaven as long as they follow Christ? It's great the people changed but, it doesn't help their past victims.

If they are killing they are not following Christ, is not just saying that you believe, you have to truly mean it and god knows are hearts....There are many people who go through the motions but do not actually have belief. Everyone is rewarded for their works on earth in heaven, so if you spent your life as a horrible person and then finally found god (truly)you would go to heaven, first of all after that point they would change and you would be able to see it. God does not distinguish between sins, the bible says if you commit one you commit them all.

God sent Jesus as a perfect sacrifice for all of us...

Originally posted by minister
If they are killing they are not following Christ, is not just saying that you believe, you have to truly mean it and god knows are hearts....There are many people who go through the motions but do not actually have belief. Everyone is rewarded for their works on earth in heaven, so if you spent your life as a horrible person and then finally found god (truly)you would go to heaven, first of all after that point they would change and you would be able to see it. God does not distinguish between sins, the bible says if you commit one you commit them all.

God sent Jesus as a perfect sacrifice for all of us...


I understand you mean that once they have changed, they go to Heaven.

My problem with it is that whatever you do, you are forgiven as long as you follow Christ. You can be the worst person on the planet and then 1 week before death, find Christ and get salvation.

If you truly mean it yes you can.....If all sin is looked at the same, to sin once is to be seperated from God. As long as you truly mean it, it does not matter when only that you do.....Those people who do wrong will still stand before our lord as he weighs their works, if you had killed people I am sure that would not be a comfortable situation.

What if you said - I don't want to stand before the lord and be judged? I didn't make these rules nor agree to them.

God seems to be the creator, the instigator, the judge and the jury.

Overall - if you just look at this simplistic concept at face value - you see a God that is just playing with us for his own amusement.

It does not matter if you want to or not, god made the rules and you don't have to agree, he gives you that option with the consequence. yes God is the creator, the judge, and the jury...

No I don't believe God is playing with us for amusement, he wishes to be part of our life. You always try to make God out as Evil, you seem to not agree and host a lot of anger towards God. He are we as men to judge the word of our creator.

I'm just commenting on how the Christian story looks to me. I don't think God is evil and I don't have any anger toward God because I cannot believe that God is anything even close to what your version looks like.

Going back to my earlier post where I suggested that religion is a framework for man's limited comprehension. I think the Christian framework can make more sense if you look at it this way

- do not separate man from God
- God is a collective of all that is
- hell is separation from the whole (God)
- the rules are not rules per say - they are just a description of what is

You got it, you said what i have been saying different wording.......I am not saying people don't take it to far, like people killing each other in the name of god. Man can mess up a great thing, where we disagree is the belief of the scriptures. I fully believe the new testament with all the stories of Jesus Christ.

But you have the concept. I don't call them rules as they are a way to live.

In the past I have been fairly deeply into Christianity & also Wicca and also New Age philosophies.

My conclusion is only that yes there is a god force, that the universe works for your good as much as you let it, we can achieve whatever we believe in enough. Beyond that I personally know nothing with any certainty & I have no need to know things with certainty. There is something healthy I believe in being able to accept uncertainty because we are made of uncertainty.

You believe in what you do because you have had an "experience" beyond the words of a book. You yourself have said that you had the same thoughts I have expressed - so something 'spiritual' occured to bring you into the fold so to speak.

What I would propose to you is that there are a thousand ways to have the experiences you have had. The Christian message is not exclusive - it is a potential path designed for man's limited abilities - just like all paths are.

I agree Drew, each person walks a different path. Each has different thoughts unique to that person.
The problem seems to start when a certain set of regulations are established by a group of people.
I have seen people very depressed because they did not think they could live up to the standards established by the Christian religion they were familiar with. The thoughts that one day they would burn in hell depressed their entire life.
Human nature is just that. Wants and desires that are natural. To fight with that which is human nature to fit into a set of rules originally established by men of various mental capibilities is a fight that place some in mental anguish.
These people I speak of are not criminals, have never broken the prudent common laws, yet have failed to live up to the letter of religious rules.

In this manner religion is causing harm to a "good person."
A young man I went to high school with was from a very strict religious family. He appeared to be a good kid but very quiet.
One day he blew out his brains when we were in the 9th grade.
He left a letter saying how he could not live up to his family's requirements so he would go directly to hell so that he would not have to go thru final judgement.
Made quite of an impression on me. I saw my first example of what mans religion can do to make people unhappy because they do no "fit in."

I don't know anyone who can not fit the guideline for christian, believe that Jesus died for you.....It says nothing about after being saved having to be perfect or sinless.....I know there are certain sects that go to far, but christianity as a whole is not like that. I find my life was harder before I was a christian.

How can you not understand it? It's fairly simple. Right or wrong - guilt & fear is religions tools to keep believers in line. That doesn't mean that love and honesty are not also present.

guilt and fear are emotions not tools, the only tool I have ever seen my preacher use is his bible. There should be some fear, to be seperated from God what a horrible thing to imagine. I understand what your saying till about 4 years ago I would probably be backing you. I understand more than you guys think, and I have a very open mind.

Originally posted by minister
guilt and fear are emotions not tools, the only tool I have ever seen my preacher use is his bible. There should be some fear, to be seperated from God what a horrible thing to imagine. I understand what your saying till about 4 years ago I would probably be backing you. I understand more than you guys think, and I have a very open mind.

I think what is being suggested is that yes, guilt and fear are emotions but, people can also produce guilt trips and intimidation to promote fear.

fear and guilt is still a core element of religion - intended or not.

Really, telling me that you are actually not as silly as you sound is all well and good, but you need to back it up with something understandable. So far you have only really said - here is a bunch of way out stuff and you should believe it or you are going to hell. That's a pretty weak argument to put forth.

What was your road to Damascus experience that allowed you to go beyond the bounds of reason and buy into stuff like the rapture, being one of the select few destined for heaven etc etc?

Surely - it would have to be some major event. I've been waiting for you to share that - but so far it has never arrived.

I agree with Drew, Minister.

Throughout all you have shared about your religion, or faith, I'm not getting what YOU are getting out of it. What it does for you, and how you feel as a person as a result. What is your Drive?!?! Heaven? What about now, not when you are dead or thinking about being dead with Jesus.

What I get out of it is a life here now with god in it, I have peace of mind and of heart. The question should not be what am I going to get out of it, it is all done to glorify God. My drive is my family and my faith.