There are so many people who walk around lost everyday, no purpose or looking for that purpose. Always trying to find something that makes them happy and they go from one thing to the next in pursuit of happiness in this world. Hint : There is none, happiness is not of this world, it is for the next. It saddens me to see so many people so lost.

www.sinnerschurchofchrist.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by minister
Hint : There is none, happiness is not of this world, it is for the next.
----------------
Minister, I am sorry that you will never be happy in this world. Life is too lengthy to be unhappy that long.
Maybe you need a new religion.

Life is far from lengthy, the average age is what 75 years old and some of those years at the end aren't the best. I am not saying you will walk around miserable on this earth all the time, there are the joys ( as temporary as they may be ), the only true happiness is in God, through Jesus.

How long is 75 years compared to eternity....

It's funny how you think that because people don't go your way, they are "lost".

If we aren't aware of our spirit life before we are born, how do you know we will know it afterward?

It's not my way it is Gods....I know they are lost, a life without the true god and creator, is not much of a life...and then you have so much to look forward to when you die....

Originally posted by minister
It's not my way it is Gods....I know they are lost, a life without the true god and creator, is not much of a life...and then you have so much to look forward to when you die....
I'm quite happy with my life, thank you...

It's not my way it is Gods....I know they are lost, a life without the true god and creator, is not much of a life...and then you have so much to look forward to when you die....

Time and time again I see this threat from folks of your ilk...

I don't say such things about you, although I might be thinking it.....maybe YOU are truly lost......

If you saw someone running toward the edge of a cliff to their death, would you yell stop....

Yes because I KNOW what would happen....you are just speculating it.

KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF are two very different things.

Call me when you come back from the dead with proof.

How about when jesus came back and did give proof.....Is the son of God good enough..

Originally posted by minister
How about when jesus came back and did give proof.....Is the son of God good enough..
How the hell can anyone verify that Jesus was indeed reincarnated? No one has, to this day.

He wasn't reincarnated he was resurrected, read the bible people made witness to this.

Originally posted by minister
There are so many people who walk around lost everyday, no purpose or looking for that purpose. Always trying to find something that makes them happy and they go from one thing to the next in pursuit of happiness in this world. Hint : There is none, happiness is not of this world, it is for the next. It saddens me to see so many people so lost.

www.sinnerschurchofchrist.com

Speak for yourself - there is lots of happiness in this world. I'm happy every time I look at my son. The world is filled with happiness of all kinds.

Sounds to me like you have a mental problem - terminally sad and expecting to be happy after you die. What a way to live - maybe your doctor can prescribe some meds for you.

Your views are a total joke. All you preach is doom and gloom mixed with generalities about everybody who is not as screwed up as you, all wrapped up in your religious "those poor lost souls" superiority complex.

I'm sure there are tons of losers and miss-fits just ready and willing to buy into your brand of crap. That's the sad part. For the other sane people - your mentality is about the worst sales tactic God could ever ask for. You probably lose more souls than you save.

You don't sound happy, I have plenty times when I'm happy. But what I talk about is eternal happiness, spending forever with God, I have no complex and need no kind of medication. The sad part is when you do die and in an instant know that you were wrong it will be too late and nothing you can say or ever do will correct this mistake, I am better than no man. I try to walk after the spirit not the flesh.

Most christians are content with just believing theirselves and keeping it quiet. The bible is clear about what we are to do, and what is to come and your comments and way of thinking is further proof of what the bible tells us. You follow in the way of man as if the top 100 smartest men of all times come close to God, but you follow the way of man.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I don't sound happy? Yeah when I read sanctimonious garbage I probably come across as unhappy.

The sad part is when you do die and in an instant know that you were wrong it will be too late and nothing you can say or ever do will correct this mistake

I could never follow a "God" that dreamed up those set of rules. Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather know that I had a better set of values than subscribe to something I had zero respect for as some kind of insurance policy.

Only man could create such a mind fuck as that. I'm confident God has no part of that.

You are really a sad person, I hope one day you see the error in your way before you are judged and you will be. Whether we like it or not Truth is Truth.

We only get to ignore God for so long..

Thanks - I take that as a compliment. If rejecting mind-twisting rubbish makes a person sad - then so be it. I'm happy to be sad.

Your 'believe or burn in hell' story is a story I can never accept.

You are right Truth is Truth - but you have no idea what truth is and neither do I. The difference is I know I don't know what truth is. You on the other hand have all the answers neatly typed up.

Pretty nice how God had that done isn't it...

I so hope one of your children becomes an atheist, i doubt of course it will happen with the 24/7 brainwashing going on, but it would be a beautiful thing all the same.

The kind of person you are really shows, you hope one of my children turn from god and end up in hell, how nice. I hope you have no kids, and if you do tell them I am sorry for them.

Yeh see, this pointless non constructive stuff i keep spouting just ends up making me feel shit for the duration of the day, so dont worry Im in a 24/7 personal torture, and dont worry i wont have any kids.

I apologise.

I hope your really not in any personal torture, as for your apology, if meant is accepted. My kids are my whole life, and the joy they bring me in insurmountable. I will work on keeping my message more constructive...

Thanks

What i should have said was this, -

Dont you feel that it is more fair to teach your child evoloution and creatisim without becomming bias to either (for the duration of your teaching to them) and allow them to choose their own path.

Obviously this wouldnt happen because you feel that if your children do not follow the way of God they shall perish in Hell and knowing you have allowed your children such a fate would make sleeping at night difficult etc.

I think in America your in the majority though arnt you? We here in England will probably be Muslims in 10 or so years when the country takes every single immigrant in and allows them to enforce their religion on everything.

Its probably not as bad as personal torture, just conflicting ideals and APD,

Can i ask a Question? Do you ever wish there was more proof in the existance of God.

My honest answer is for me I feel like the evidence is abundant. I hope my kids keep an open mind on all points of view, you can not pick anyones beliefs for them ( even my kids ). Believe it or not I try to learn all I can of secular science, including the Theory of evolution.

To me it is amazing that more people don't believe in God with all the proof....

To me it is amazing that more people don't believe in God with all the proof....

You keep talking about this proof, and how it is all around us....quit being so cryptic, and start listing it.....

The Existence of God
In the foregoing, there has been much talk of the causality relationship and the fundamental role it plays in the whole process of moral and spiritual development. We need now to take a closer look at some of the general logical properties of this relationship, as well as the logical connections between causality and a few other fundamental relations. Our purpose in undertaking this study is to establish the existence of God on a totally objective basis, as a necessary logical feature of the overall structure of reality itself.

By the term reality we mean the totality of existence, everything there is. A phenomenon is some portion of reality, and causality is a relationship between two phenomena A and B, which holds whenever A is a cause of B (symbolized A ® B). This means that A contains a sufficient reason for the existence of B. More generally, everything B that exists must either be preceded by a cause A different from B (A ® B and A ¹ B), or else contain within itself a sufficient reason for its existence (B ® B). In the former case, we say that B is caused or other-caused and in the latter uncaused or self-caused. The principle that every existing phenomenon must either be caused or uncaused (and not both) is the principle of sufficient reason.

Another basic relation between phenomena is the relation of part to whole: we write A Î B whenever the entity A is a component of the system (composite phenomenon) B. Notice that A may also be composite, but must be an entity (not just an arbitrary system) in order to be a component of another system B (whether the latter is an entity or not). Two systems (whether entities or not) may also be related by one being a subsystem of the other. We write A Ì B whenever A is a subsystem of B. This means precisely that every component E Î A is also a component E Î B. For example, a single leaf would be a component of a tree, but all the leaves together would constitute a subsystem of the tree. If E is either a component or subsystem of B, then E is a part of B.

From the strictly logical point of view, the defining or characteristic feature of an entity A is that A can be a component of some system B, A Î B. In other words, entities are components while systems have components (they are composite phenomena). Moreover, some systems also are components. Thus, with respect to composition, we have three distinct categories of phenomena. A phenomenon may be noncomposite (have no components), in which case it is necessarily an entity. A phenomenon may be a composite entity, in which case it both has components and is a component. Or, a phenomenon may be composite without being an entity, in which case it has components but can never be a component.

Causality and composition are related to each other by the obvious potency principle, which says that if A ® B, then A must also be a cause of E, where E is any component or any subsystem of B. In other words, to be a cause of B is to be a cause of every part of B -- its components and its subsystems. This means that our notion of causality is that of complete cause (philosophy recognizes several different notions of "cause").

Finally, the existence of a whole system obviously cannot precede the existence of its components (rather, the constitution of a whole obviously supposes and depends upon the prior or simultaneous existence of its components). We thus have the principle of limitation, which asserts that, for every composite phenomenon A, A cannot be a cause of any of its components.

It follows immediately from these principles that no composite phenomenon can be self-caused, for suppose A ® A where A is composite. Then, by the potency principle A ® E, where E is any component of A. But this contradicts the limitation principle.

In fact, from these valid principles of causality and composition, we can logically deduce the existence of a unique, noncomposite, self-caused, universal cause G. This entity, whose existence we prove, is God (by logical definition). This God is not some abstract figment of our imagination but the actual, ultimate cause of all existing phenomena and entities, the origin of all being.

Since the proof is easy, we give it here in full. However, the reader who already accepts and understands the existence of a universal uncaused cause (i.e., God) can safely skip the details of the proof without diminishing his or her understanding of the subsequent sections of the course.

Let V be the collection (universe) of all existing entities. Since V is composite it cannot be self-caused (see above) and so must have a cause G (different fromV itself). Thus, G ® V, G ¹ V Moreover, every existing phenomenon A is either an entity, and thus a component of V, or else a system all of whose components are in V -- in which case A is a subsystem of V. Thus, G is either a component or a subsystem of V. But, in either case, G ® G by the potency principle. Thus, G is self-caused and hence noncomposite (no composite can be self-caused as shown above). Finally, since G ® V and every phenomenon A is a part of V then by the potency principle, G is a universal cause (the cause of every existing phenomenon, including itself).

Finally, we show that G is the only uncaused phenomenon, for suppose there is another such phenomenon G'. Then G ® G' (since G is a universal cause). But since G' is self-caused it cannot be other-caused by the principle of sufficient reason. Thus, G = G' and the uniqueness of G is established.

This clear, logical proof of God's existence and uniqueness is due in its essentials to the great Muslim philosopher Avicenna (ibn Sina, 980 - 1037). By making use of a few notions of modern logic, our presentation here somewhat simplifies Avicenna's exposition.

The relationships of causality and composition, and the logical connections between them, give us the knowledge of God's existence. This naturally raises the further question of God's nature (what is God like?). To answer this, we need now to consider the value relation ³, mentioned in chapter 1, and which only holds between (i.e., is meaningful for) entities. To say that the entity A is as valuable as the entity B, A ³ B, means that A is either more refined (higher) -- or at least no less refined -- than B.

For example, in the physical world, humans are higher (more complex) than animals, animals higher than plants, and plants higher than minerals (inorganic substances). In the spiritual world, the relationship of higher to lower is the relationship of universal to particular (e.g., the relationship between the form of the human in the mind of God, embodied in the Manifestations, and any particular individual human soul).

The fundamental logical connection between causality and value is given by the refinement principle: where A and B are entities,

if A ® B then A ³ B. This means that any causal entity must be at least as refined as its effect. Since God is the unique universal cause, God is also the most refined entity in existence.

In particular, humans have the positive qualities of consciousness, intelligence, feelings, and will. Moreover, although each human soul has these qualities to a specific, finite, and limited degree, there is no limit to the degree that these qualities can exist generally in human beings. (For example, no matter how intelligent a given human being may be, it is possible for another human to be more intelligent.) Since God is the unique cause of every human being, God must have these positive qualities (and undoubtedly others) to a degree greater than every limited (finite) degree, thus to an unlimited (infinite) degree. Hence, God is infinitely conscious, infinitely knowing, infinitely loving, and infinitely willing (all-powerful). In fact, since God is the only Being whose existence is absolute (i.e., uncaused), God has these qualities to an absolute degree.

Thus, the logical answer to the question "what is God's nature?" is to say that "God is like us except for possessing none of our limitations and all of our positive qualities to an infinite degree." Of course we cannot really imagine what it means to possess such qualities as consciousness or will to an infinite degree, but the refinement principle does nevertheless gives us at least a minimal, purely logical notion of God's nature.


What about the law of thermodynamics....

Some Things You Should Know
As we race toward the end, we see many of the remaining 10% of the nearly 8000 verses of prophecy in the Bible coming to pass. The events in our world and in our history are unfolding and have unfolded just as God told us they would. God's prophetic program has proven to be excruciatingly exact. Whether you believe or not, whether you have been aware or not, the fact is that God is there and He has told us exactly what would come to pass throughout the trajectory of history, and so it is. Fire is hot whether we believe it or not. Water freezes whether we believe it or not. The Earth was round contrary to the popular belief of our forefathers. Prophecy is in place and coming to pass, and God is real whether we believe it or not.

An Example: God told us nearly 3000 years ago the exact day in the future that Israel would once again become a recognized nation in our world. Click Here to see this prophecy

But God didn't expect us to believe on blind faith alone

Throughout the Scriptures, God exhorts us to be vigilant, to study, to test things to be sure of them. God has created the human race with the ability to think and to make choices. We are not propelled by instinct as the animals are, but we have the ability to make logical choices based upon consideration. Though God loves us all, He does expect us to use our ability to think and to choose to come to know Him. It is not His intention to force Himself on us, but rather to wait patiently for us to choose Him. Therefore, God has done some things for us so that we could know that He is who He says He is.... IF we want to know.

The bible was written by 40 men, chosen by God to write it. It was written over a period of 1,500 years. Those 40 men who wrote were on 3 separate continents, and were all writing the same thing, at the same time. The gospel of Christ. In that day, they had no mail delivery trucks, no drop ship planes, no Federal Express, no UPS and no e-mail. So how could it be then that they all wrote the same things while on 3 separate continents? Because as the men wrote, God spoke.

God's Second Testimony to us that He is the divine author of the Bible:
Prophecy. The bible is approximately 40% prophecy. There are nearly 8,000 verses of prophecy in the bible. Of those nearly 8,000 verses, 90% of them have come to pass with excruciating accuracy. The remaining 10% are either in the works now, or will be coming to pass soon. Only God can tell our entire trajectory of history from the beginning to the end. And God has not been wrong yet. God's prophetic program has proven to be precise and exact.

If you have not been aware:
The Bible is a supernatural book to say the least. It is not possible for humans to know the entire trajectory of the events of our world and to describe them in exact detail thousands of years before they happen. If you have been unaware of the existence of our Creator to this point in your life, it would behoove you to look to Him and get saved for God will not just go away because you have been unaware, He considers it your fault for not knowing. ( Click Here to see God's magnificent plan of salvation and how you can come to know Him and to be saved ) It would also behoove you to begin a study in God's prophetic program. God put it in place so that we could know ... if we want to know.


A Problem:
(slightly off subject, but important to know none the less)
Since God considers you to be responsible for who you are, for the choices you have made, and since He considers it your responsibility to get in step with Him and not He with you, then you have this problem... God is Holy and you are a sinner. God says that if you are not saved your sin will keep you out of His presence for all of eternity. God says that unless you are born again you will not inherit eternal life with Him. God says that unless you do something to be cleaned of your sinful state that you stand condemned already. It is not that God is picking on you, or that He wants to see you cast away in your eternal life, but it is that God cannot and will not allow the blemish of sin to tarnish the sin free Kingdom He will be setting into place. Yes there is a good and life saving study for you in prophecy, but I urge you to go a step further and trust in Him to save you. Jesus has died to cover your sins. It is HIS shed blood that will get you justification with God, not any good works you can do for yourself, and it is you and your sinful state that drove Him to die to cover you. So how can you be saved? It's much easier than you may know. ( Click Here to find out how you can be saved )

Can you link to the website you copied that from please?

ditto.

I kinda feel sorry for you.......

There is none, happiness is not of this world, it is for the next. It saddens me to see so many people so lost.....you have so much to look forward to when you die....

It sounds to me like you would prefer people kill themselves...then they would get out of this miserable sad life and into the great afterlife. You are sick.

If you saw someone running toward the edge of a cliff to their death, would you yell stop....

I don't know what the point of this question was, but I would yell stop...would you? Again, it seems you would not because you would rather they get to the afterlife.

Please explain why you choose to take the Bible as such absolute literal proof instead of any of the other religious readings such as what we call Greek Mythology or the Koran?

- The end is near

- God can be proven with an equation

- Sign up or suffer eternal suffering

Minister - trust me, you are wasting your time. It blows my mind that you can write what you do and actually be suprised when people think you are a nutcase. Maybe you are not a nutcase but you certainly come across as a loony tune, and thats the God's honest truth

Minister, I have a message for you, and since I don't know everything like Drew, cree, dnamertz, and lokideviluk do, I'm just going to have to quote someone else:

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you" -Jesus.

Love the quote uncoolduck very true. and drewm No one is rushing to death, but it is sad when so many people think this is it. No one should ever kill themselves, shows that you know a whole lot about the religion. People ask for proof but when any type is shown even using a science I am called a nutcase. I am far from a nut case, but you fit the bill as many other do....

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you" -Jesus.

Nice quote uncool - but none of the comments are because of God, they are because of minister views.

My view are the Bible and God.

God existed before your religion thingys.
Man existed before your religion thingys.
Then man decides to tryand capture god in a book of quotes.
This is probably the true sin.

Originally posted by minister
happiness is not of this world, it is for the next. It saddens me to see so many people so lost.

To be mindlessly, utterly ignorant and live in a brainwashed state, unshakeably convinced that --"I'm going to a perfect Paradise soon, and there I will live forever!"-- must be true bliss.

I envy you.

How do you know man was around before religion. If God created man he was born with religion as set by the true God.

The men of the bible knew things they could not have known but for God, Things that at their time was considered crazy and they all have been proved true.

You should check out the biblical accuracy....

Originally posted by minister
My view are the Bible and God.

According to you, But what you say is impossible to take seriously.

Your brand of brainwashing is common throughout the world with all manner of different beliefs - they are all exactly the same as you in their fervor, even if the beliefs differ. What makes you any different? All the other religious loonies have equally as strong views as you. I can see no difference at all. You think they are doomed and they think you are doomed.

I think no one is doomed all have the chance to come to God it is their choice. I believe Jesus Christ fulfilled all the prophecies, proved himself to be the Son of God. Name some other religions where the leader of the movement claimed to be God and backed it up, Others claimed to be prophets. And by the definition, a prophet can only speak the truth because he is of God...So these other religions who say Jesus was only a prophet contradict theirselves entirely....

Minister, I have a message for you, and since I don't know everything like Drew, cree, dnamertz, and lokideviluk do

UNCOOLDUCK, I'm honored that you have the impression that I "know everything" but I don't and I have not implied that I do. In fact, on this topic I have admited to not knowing, which is why I'm agnostic. The one who acts as if he knows all is Minister...he seems to have all the answers.

I only have the answers available to anyone, when you research all sides you can really learn a lot...

Originally posted by minister
I think no one is doomed all have the chance to come to God it is their choice. I believe Jesus Christ fulfilled all the prophecies, proved himself to be the Son of God. Name some other religions where the leader of the movement claimed to be God and backed it up, Others claimed to be prophets. And by the definition, a prophet can only speak the truth because he is of God...So these other religions who say Jesus was only a prophet contradict theirselves entirely....

Yes you do think they are doomed. You have said so over & over. If somebody doesn't believe what you believe then ultimately they are doomed according to you.

You constantly refuse to answer the question about what makes you any different than the thousands of other cults and beliefs - where the members all share exactly your fervor. It doesn't matter what the actual belief is - the pattern is exactly the same. They believe with an equally as strong set of mutually exclusive beliefs as you do, seeing you as as much a false prophet as you see them to be. They all sit on a pompous high horse condemming everybody who's beliefs don't match theirs. It's evident that this doesn't set off any alarm bells for you. If you had not given up all essence of reason you would be able to see this and at least try to reconcile how this fits with your situation.

Providing Bible verses is an invalid way to respond. They provide no form of evidence nor reason to me, so it's pointless to use them as any kind of reason to your arguments. They can only have meaning to any debate, after you actually make a point that can be accepted as worthwhile. So far you have failed miserably to make any point at all beyond a clear statement of your state of mental repression.

You make plenty of points for me with your statements. With as much effort to sound intelligence you seem to always fail miserably. There is nothing I could ever say to you that would open your eyes by myself. Believe it or not since posting I have had people email me with their own personal questions and have helped people, as much ridicule as I take, one sinner repenting and turning to Jesus Christ makes it all worth while....

I follow in the footsteps of my Lord as unworthy as I may be.

There you go again with that "Holier than thou" approach.

How holier than though is UNWORTHY........

I am no more holy than you or anyone else in this world I'm just saved, and wanting to help get the word of God out to people...

Only God is Holy......

"There is none that doeth Good, no not one".

Originally posted by minister
It's not my way it is Gods....I know they are lost, a life without the true god and creator, is not much of a life...and then you have so much to look forward to when you die....

Like hell?
Side Note: I dont think heaven would be too great. People thrive on chaos and conflict. If everything was pleasant then eternity would be pretty boring. At least in hell i have the chance of being suprised: Hmm, today will i get the eye-pecking crows or do i want the lava bath?

Honestly, i am perfectly comfortable only having 1 life. Once is enough, and i live by the motto in my sig.

hehe, and to take a carlin joke on the subject of long life: Life is not short. It only seems short because everything else lasts so long; Mountains, stars, planets, ect. In fact life lasts just the right amount of time...then you die. Death on the other hand is short.

Providing Bible verses is an invalid way to respond

He can if he uses reason or his own opinion as to how those verses are relevant. But he does not. To just provide the verses by themselves is meaningless unless he is providing them to people who already agree with what the verses say. Plus, I was raised in the 20th century and speak the current english language. Quotes like "no man come unto the father but by me…" make no sense. Speak english that those of us who are not 2,000 years old can understand, or if you are going to quote broken english, at least explain what you think it is saying.

Thats a very cheap excuse dnamertz......if you cant find meaning in that.....then theres something bad wrong there. Do you understand Shakespeare?

Well, I haven't read Shakespeare since high school, but I remember it was more difficult to understand than anything written recently, obviously. Minister is just trowing these quotes out there as if to say "see, there is your proof" and my point was that he is not backing up these sometimes vague or confusing quotes with explainations as to why they proof his point. I mean, I could try to explain to you the importance of life but I would not do it just by saying "To be, or not to be: that is the question". Or if I did use that quote, I would explain the relevance to my point.

I'm sorry if you can not find meaning in those words spoke by Jesus. If I changed the words then it would be altered by me, who am I to change the word of God.

The quote means no one makes it to heaven except through Jesus Christ, because he was the ultimate sacrifice to pay for all the sins of man, so that if we call upon Jesus we are saved. Saved meaning to spend eternity in the presence of God, Unsaved meaning spending eternity without the spirit of God.

I hope this explains it a little more..

There is

Greek written by men 2000 years ago in language relevant to 2000 years ago, but holding some conceptual meaning

Then you have man converting the greek into English

Then you have man interpreting what the english means

Then you have man taking the exact english words and saying "The word of God" take every word literally

And then you probably have God saying "Oh my - that isn't what I meant at all"

I'm sorry if you can not find meaning in those words spoke by Jesus.

You're missing my point. Its not about whether I can find meaning it, its about whether you, the person who is using the quotes as proof, can explain how they are proof, especially since they are open to interpretation. You see, you read the Bible and somehow accepted it as accurate fact and concluded that God exists. Others, like me, have read it and not reached the same conclusions, and no matter how many times I re-read a quote from the Bible it, by itself, is not going to be proof to me. What I need from someone who is using Biblical quotes is how that quote was proof for them. This is what I meant when I said "To just provide the verses by themselves is meaningless unless he is providing them to people who already agree with what the verses say."

If I changed the words then it would be altered by me, who am I to change the word of God.

The quote means no one makes it to heaven except through Jesus Christ, because he was the ultimate sacrifice to pay for all the sins of man, so that if we call upon Jesus we are saved. Saved meaning to spend eternity in the presence of God, Unsaved meaning spending eternity without the spirit of God.

You just said you couldn't change or alter the word of God, then you did exactly that by re-wording the quote, which is exactly what I was looking for...your own words, thank you.

The bible is not just a book to be read, you have to hear it and feel it, Do you also know that in this same book it says that non-believers in the one true God, will not understand the meaning of there words. My wife who was a non-believer for a long time, had tried reading the bible and never seemed to get anything out of it, except for that it was hard to read. My wife came to me a couple months ago and asked me if I knew, that any question anyone ever has, is in this book. I am sure people hear christians quoting the bible all the time, It answers everything.

The bible has been translated into more languages than any other book, If you look at the hebrew text before translation you can see for yourself the proof of accuracy.

The bible is not just a book to be read, you have to hear it and feel it, Do you also know that in this same book it says that non-believers in the one true God, will not understand the meaning of there words. My wife who was a non-believer for a long time, had tried reading the bible and never seemed to get anything out of it, except for that it was hard to read. My wife came to me a couple months ago and asked me if I knew, that any question anyone ever has, is in this book. I am sure people hear christians quoting the bible all the time, It answers everything.

I've never seen someone talk in circles as much as you. If non-believers will not understand it then you have to already believe before you ever pick up the Bible. I shouldn't have to point out the obvious absurdity of that, but it makes the Bible pretty useless except for people who already believed before they read it. And if it says "that non-believers in the one true God, will not understand the meaning of there words" then whoever wrote it was pretty stupid (no offense). Its like making a sign that says "want to learn to read, then call this number...".

You sound like one of those psychic-readers or people who claim they can talk to the dead who say "if you're not a true believer in this then it won't work on you." Nice loophole.

So, a non believer will get nothing from the Bible.

Yet, the Bible contains what non believers need to know to become believers.

Makes no sense.

Basically what you want is for people to suspend all rational thought and say ok I believe. That's nuts.

Your logic is one of trying to get people on board thru fear. Believe or suffer eternal hell. I'm still waiting for you to provide any actual positive reason.

Believe or suffer eternal hell
You can't understand the Bible until you believe
Once you believe the Bible will make sense.

This is the same process that every single cult in the history of man operates.

I have absolute proof that alien life exists on other planets. Here it is:

"E ack jupiter ages living not earth."

Sorry if all you non-believers can't understand that sentence, but only those who believe alien life actually exists can read it.

I doubt anyone could ready that, but nice try at humor. You act as if I am the only one saying anything like this through all of time. The Bible is proof within itself, not only of God but of Jesus Christ. I feel very bad for you my friend...

"E ack jupiter ages living not earth."
Ye gads! I believe this is the best news since 42!

The Bible is proof within itself, not only of God but of Jesus Christ.
Do you understand what the word "proof" means?

Proof: yes I know what it means....do you have any idea.

The Bible is proof within itself

Your delusional state is now really shining through.

I doubt anyone could ready that, but nice try at humor

Glad you find it funny because it was just an example of the logic you are using...which is "if you can't read it, its because your not a true believer". It was your ridiculous logic, not mine.

The Bible is proof within itself

Back to your ridiculous logic...the Bible is the proof, but anyone who does not believe can not read the proof, therefore they can never believe. Its a catch-22.

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? Let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

James 3: 13-17

LOL
Minister you are funny. I kinda like you.

You think you are making an impact on us, but really, the only impact you are creating, is that we (the non-believers) are now more confident that Christianity isn't true. No offense, but you are doing the opposite of what you think you’re doing. But keep going, you give me a good laugh

"For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:5

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Matthew 24:9


Jesus saith unto him, "Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Matthew 26:64

Seems that when you have no real response, you hide behind Bible verses.

"If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom."
Job 13:5

Originally posted by DrewM
Seems that when you have no real response, you hide behind Bible verses.

"If only you would be altogether silent! For you, that would be wisdom."
Job 13:5
I have one! It's completely irrelevant, but I quote it often.

"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses." -- Ezekiel 23:20

"The early bird catches the worm"

Late sleeping worm 11:15

Here are some more verses.

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

= all kids that disrepect their parents should be killed

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

= Slavery is ok

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

= Best take care at the hairdressers

"At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts." (Deuteronomy 15:1)

= 30 year mortgages are a sin


What does this all mean? It means it's damn stupid to take the Bible absolutely literally.

DrewM, how did you figure out what those quotes mean...your not supposed to be able to understand them unless you are a "believer"??? You must've been converted.

As for the quote about the hair cutting, it says "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head"...so the Bible doesn't mind if you have someone else cut it.

Minister dont be discouraged, you have to remember that not everyone is going to believe in Christ and not everyone is going to be saved. They keep saying that we want people to believe like us. Now while that is true we want people not to believe us, but rather to believe Christ, who he is= salvation and the Son of God, wonderful and merciful.

They try to find absurd ways and pick verses to try to disqualify scripture, not looking at the context or the cultural significance.

Sadly, most that come in here and attack are people who have no repentant heart and they dont want to know Christ. They are happy in their sins. They want to continue in them.

Christ is praised through you, because you proclaim him in this way and people will remember and Christ will as well.

Originally posted by ConservativeMan
Minister dont be discouraged, you have to remember that not everyone is going to believe in Christ and not everyone is going to be saved. They keep saying that we want people to believe like us. Now while that is true we want people not to believe us, but rather to believe Christ, who he is= salvation and the Son of God, wonderful and merciful.

They try to find absurd ways and pick verses to try to disqualify scripture, not looking at the context or the cultural significance.

Sadly, most that come in here and attack are people who have no repentant heart and they dont want to know Christ. They are happy in their sins. They want to continue in them.

Christ is praised through you, because you proclaim him in this way and people will remember and Christ will as well.

A nice flowery way to pass judgement. No repentant heart, happy in their sins blah blah blah

Everything that has been raised is sound and logical debate. The responses have been illogical, contradictory and lacking any substance, sorry if that makes people absurd.

Hard to tell sometimes who is attacking who.
But, disagreement is not necessarily attacking.

conservative man,

I could never get discouraged, Jesus finds a way to work in people's hearts. It is good to see another believer post. I just try to get the word out, plenty of ridicule for it. IN the end when Jesus tells us good job it will all be well worth it...

Correct me if I am wrong.
The Jewish faith believes that the fore-told prophet has not yet come. Are these millions of people wrong and the Christians are right? Where is the proof?

In a way, yes they are wrong.

Look at the historical prophecies of the messiah and then look at the historical record of Jesus. There are thousands of prophecies that were fulfilled in him and the odds of just 10 prophecies being fulfilled in just one man are astronomical.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the Only way to heaven.

BEAUTIFUL POST CONSERVATIVEMAN!!!

Thanks for pointing out the unbelievable odds that were overcome for just 10 prophecies to be fulfilled.....now lets think about over 200. (Which Christ did fulfil to most perfect degree)

He would have had to come already, for one they do not even know who is in what tribe any more exept for the tribe of Levi and the prophecy states which tribe the prophet will come from and it is not levi. Another prophecy, the time allotted has expired.

Jesus also fulfilled all their ancient prophecies, starting with his birth...ending with his death and resurrection....

Curiouslly what would you say to someone who really wants to embrace the religion etc, however feels that they would be living a lie because there brain just will not accept the ideal of some all powerful being?

For the easiest example i can think of, its like you beliving without a shadow of a doubt when your little that father christmas exists, then you find out when your older its a total lie. Now you actually want to believe completely that he exists again however there is no way in hell your going to be able to "trick" your brain into pretending it exists. (im not comparing santa to christ, simply trying to explain the point of it being hard to go against your current views, even if you wanted to)

I would ask you to do as much reading and research as you can, open your heart and pray to God to show you the truth. No one will ever be able to convince you of a all powerful God, God is the only one who can sway non-believers to his side.

Through prayer I have been able to have a better understanding.

Originally posted by ConservativeMan
In a way, yes they are wrong.

Look at the historical prophecies of the messiah and then look at the historical record of Jesus. There are thousands of prophecies that were fulfilled in him and the odds of just 10 prophecies being fulfilled in just one man are astronomical.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the Only way to heaven.
------------------------------------------------
Lets see... something was a prophecy in the first chapters of a book, then in later chapters of the same book the prophecies are fulfilled.
Thats proof?

There are not prophecies in the first chapters then fulfulled in the next. They are seperate books written by different people of God, some of the talked about prophecies were written a thousand years before the birth of Jesus.

Originally posted by minister
There are not prophecies in the first chapters then fulfulled in the next. They are seperate books written by different people of God, some of the talked about prophecies were written a thousand years before the birth of Jesus.
And then some random people decided to "fulfill" the prophecies by making stuff up in their books. Or edited the first part of the book. Or both. Or neither, as I can't think of a single, specific prophecy which came (undeniably, i.e. verifiable outside of the Bible) true.

Nostrodamus has a lot of prophecies "come true" also - so what. Just like Nostrodamus, the predictions are hardly specific, they could mean anything or be attached to many events.

Sorry, but the prophesy thing just lacks any kind of credibility unless you are just looking for events to hang things on.

Just like when Minsiter said the Tsnami's was a sign of the "end times" - yeah whatever.

Minister dont be discouraged, you have to remember that not everyone is going to believe in Christ and not everyone is going to be saved.

I believe in Christ. He was a real person who tried preaching his religion in a part of the world where that was apparently violating the law so the Romans executed him. But I don't think its true that he was born of some miraculous conception, the son of God, or came back to life.

They try to find absurd ways and pick verses to try to disqualify scripture

This was only done to show Minister how silly it sounds to just throw these verses out there with no relevance. Apparently, it worked.

Sadly, most that come in here and attack are people who have no repentant heart and they dont want to know Christ. They are happy in their sins. They want to continue in them.

I, for one, did not attack or call names. I try debating until Minister started to avoid the discussion by just quoting the Bible. And who are these sinners?

Just like when Minsiter said the Tsnami's was a sign of the "end times" - yeah whatever.

Just like what I heard today...many religious leaders are starting to say that the tsunamis were God's way off punishing us humans. Some of them were even taking some joy out of this, like the Reverend Fred Phelps (the guy who protested Mathew Shephard's funeral), he said that its good that some gay tourists were killed by the tsunamis and that he wishes God would strike down some more people next time to punish people for sinning.

I hear these excuses a lot about tragedies like these..."that its God way of punishing people for their sin's." If he is punishing innocent people for the sin's of other's, then he is an evil bastard...so I hope you "believers" don't believe he is doing that. So what other explaination do you have for the deaths of over 100,000 people from one event?

I do not believe the Tsunami was punishment for any sins, it was nature. There is suppose to be no more judgements till the end. The Tsunami could be some of the violent storms predicted to happen before the rapture but none of that is to punish the sins that is for God to judge after death....

True - you did not say that the Tsunami was a punishment but you did say it was a sign of the end times.

There have been signs of the end time for the past 2000 years. A natural disaster in China in 1976 killed 250,000 people.

True - you did not say that the Tsunami was a punishment but you did say it was a sign of the end times.

I have heard many people explain that events like these ARE a punishment for sins.

I am sure there are people who would say that, I do not believe that to be so....No one knows how long the predictions of the end will last, it could go on for years.....and I said they could be part of the end time prediction....It might not be.....

Originally posted by minister
I am sure there are people who would say that, I do not believe that to be so....No one knows how long the predictions of the end will last, it could go on for years.....and I said they could be part of the end time prediction....It might not be.....

This view is much more realistic and one I can have some respect for, even if I do not buy into the predictions (although the end of the world will certainly come at some point - no need to be skilled in prophecy to know that).

Its interesting to me that people have always been preoccupied with end of time stories and predictions.