http://www.infidelguy.com/flashtoons/IG_WTC.html

Check this cartoon out. It takes a while to load so please bare with because I think it brings up a good question.

So basically this doof is criticizing christianity because God didn't "save us" from the terrorist?

God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

The WTC tragedy does not teach us anything new about God : the question of His attitude during catastrophes, wars etc… is an old one.
Anyway, that cartoon is brilliant beacause it shows the vanity of some chistian who want to see thier god everywhere. Rather than praying god or trying to convince other that the WTC was destroyed in punishment of America's sins (which I have read on another forum), people should better wonder what they can do to change the world we live in so that this would never happen any more.

Just another question :

One year ago : 3000 people died in WTC. What could we do to prevent that ? Nothing. But if we had been given a chance, we would have supported any possible action to avoid that tragedy, at any cost, of course.

Everyday : 6000 people die from AIDS in Africa. A disease that now can be treated. It's just a question of money and politic will.

So where is the madness ?

[quote:934c4b6d6b="ConfusedYouth"]God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?[/quote:934c4b6d6b]

So basically you are saying that if God is really omnipotent then he is also malevolent because he doesn't prevent every bad thing from happening. Man, learn a bit more about what we Christians actually believe and stop drawing stupid conclusions like this based on your obviously limited knowledge.

If God is God then he is able to prevent evil and why would a loving God allow such a tragity to happen?

[quote:2b7e0c9773="ConfusedYouth"]If God is God then he is able to prevent evil and why would a loving God allow such a tragity to happen?[/quote:2b7e0c9773]

As I stated before, this naive remark (typical of athiest and the like, as i've heard it dozens of times) is very uninformed. The Bible covers such as this extensively.

[quote:8ea9551b3f="DaveTooner"]As I stated before, this naive remark (typical of athiest and the like, as i've heard it dozens of times) is very uninformed. The Bible covers such as this extensively.[/quote:8ea9551b3f]

The thing I find funniest here is that you, Dave, refuse to enlighten anyone about your faith.

It is extremely hard to learn about Christianity because each Christian is so different and there are only hundreds of branches of both the Protestant and Catholic beliefs.

BTW, why would you expect an Atheist to want to read your Bible? Why even suggest such a thing? The book that means so much to you is only a book to someone else.

[quote:3a4bd329fd="ConfusedYouth"]If God is God then he is able to prevent evil and why would a loving God allow such a tragity to happen?[/quote:3a4bd329fd]

Why would a loving God throw his children into a lake of fire? Can you think of anything one of your kids could do, no matter how evil, that would make you burn him/her for eternity? Me either.

But it seems that God has a long line of such "loving" actions toward his creations. Turning people into pillars of salt. Killing a family's first born. Sending men off to war etc, etc.

[quote:0094270236]BTW, why would you expect an Atheist to want to read your Bible? Why even suggest such a thing? The book that means so much to you is only a book to someone else.
[/quote:0094270236]

I don't expect them to read it. I also don't expect them to criticize it as if they know what they are talking about. If it was as simple as CY makes it out to be, no one would be a Christian.

The reason I don't "enlighten" anyone is because I have argued this basic point with so many atheists/agnostics in my life that I am SICK of it. It is a waste of my time. But I will give you a brief abridged version...

The most basic answer to this is because God allows us free will. He gave us his word on what is right and wrong. He doesn't force us to abide by it or believe it. Nowhere in the Bible does God say that everything on Earth is going to be perfect. In fact, he states the opposite. So the occurence of tragedies on Earth does not contradict God's word.

I respect your beleifs, Dave. I don't share them, though.

I think people seek religion when they are looking to fill holes in their lives. They find a church family for support. They find a greater being to whom they can take their deepest needs. They find a creator and a creation process to help explain to them why we are here. I think that the religion they choose is a product of their enviroment and raising.

I also agree with you that the Bible deals with much of CY's question in the way of freewill. Bad things happen because humans choose to do bad things (sin). I personally do not believe very much in freewill.

[quote:e25ce3a374]I think people seek religion when they are looking to fill holes in their lives. They find a church family for support. They find a greater being to whom they can take their deepest needs. They find a creator and a creation process to help explain to them why we are here. I think that the religion they choose is a product of their enviroment and raising.

[/quote:e25ce3a374]

Too bad that doesn't apply to me.

[quote:c93dd8d897="DaveTooner"]Too bad that doesn't apply to me.[/quote:c93dd8d897]

You've perked my curiousity. Why do you believe in God? Why do you choose to believe in the Christian version of God?

No one does anything without reason, even if they don't know exactly what that reason is.

[quote:55b77468e4="J_Lively"][quote:55b77468e4="DaveTooner"]Too bad that doesn't apply to me.[/quote:55b77468e4]

You've perked my curiousity. Why do you believe in God? Why do you choose to believe in the Christian version of God?

No one does anything without reason, even if they don't know exactly what that reason is.[/quote:55b77468e4]

To an athiest/agnostic (or whatever you are) like yourself, this will sound incredibly stupid... but believe it or not it is because I can feel God. Yeah, that's right, laugh it up. I don't have any scientific proof or anything like what all you athiests always want. Not a bit. However I have my own personal experiences and, yes, if you seek God with an open mind you will find him. To do this you need a very good understanding of what the Bible teaches. If you go into it with the typical athiest mindset, expecting God to answer every little prayer you have, never allowing anything bad to happen to you, etc, well then you might as well just forget it.

I have a few questions that may be you can answer Dave.

God made "light" on the first day (Genesis 1:3), but then made the Sun and stars later (Genesis 1:16). The light, as we know it, comes from the chemical and atomic reactions of Hydrogen and Helium in the Sun. These chemical and atomic reactions cause energy to come out of the Sun in the form of light. God cannot create light and then create the sun a day later. They are intrinsically one and the same thing. One may argue that God created the concept of light, but then God should have taken a day to invent the concept of sky and ground before physically bringing them into existence, as well as the concepts of vegetation, the birds and the fish, and the land creatures. However, light should not need to be created if God will eventually create the Sun days later. And if light exists without the Sun, then the creation of the moon, the Sun, and the stars is completely unnecessary. Even if God did create the concept of light on the first day, would it not seem logical to then build the concept of light - the Sun and the stars - the day after, instead of then creating the sky and the ground, the vegetation, and then the concept of light? Assumingly, why would God even need to create the concept of light? After all, according to Isaiah 46:10, God knows all. If this is true, then God would already have the knowledge of the concept of light, and therefore the invention of the idea or concept of light, would be completely unnecessary.

On the third day, God created vegetation (Genesis 1:12). Plants contain a chemical known as chlorophyll that turns sunlight into energy. However, the Sun was created on the fourth day (Genesis 1:16), after the creation of plants. Plants, a needer of light to survive, existed without the creation of the Sun. Although surely no contradiction, but a discrepancy indeed! Why would any creator create plants first and then the Sun that they need? An intelligent creator would first provide the resource required by plants - the Sun - and then the plants that would have used the Sun. Of course, it's no contradiction, but simply something that is unintelligible.

[quote:fada18ccd8="DaveTooner"]To an athiest/agnostic (or whatever you are) like yourself, this will sound incredibly stupid... but believe it or not it is because I can feel God. Yeah, that's right, laugh it up. I don't have any scientific proof or anything like what all you athiests always want. Not a bit. However I have my own personal experiences and, yes, if you seek God with an open mind you will find him. To do this you need a very good understanding of what the Bible teaches. If you go into it with the typical athiest mindset, expecting God to answer every little prayer you have, never allowing anything bad to happen to you, etc, well then you might as well just forget it.[/quote:fada18ccd8]

Dave, I'm not going to laugh at you for that. I have heard way stranger reasons why people choose to believe in something.

I don't believe in God, but I don't totally close my mind to the idea. I sought God for many years. I was raised in the heart of the Bible-belt and learned a great deal about the Bible. I honestly looked for God with an open heart and was "saved," but I found nothing in the Christian religion that satisfied my questions or made me feel any more complete. If there is a God I think she/he/it is too big for any of us to fully comprehend or know.

And BTW, using terms like "the typical atheist mindset" is another stereotype. :)