I know this board usually has heated discussions about the existance of God, but here's an approach that might not have been covered before, or at least not recently. Here is a very convincing argument for believing in God:

It is a good bet to believe in God, and here is why. If you believe in God, and accept Jesus as your savior, you are doing 2 main things (from a Christian perspective).
1. Enriching your life with a belief system that has so many rewards, not only in heaven, but here on Earth also. Christians in general love life, and even if they have problems feel truly fufilled.
2. Ensuring your entrance into heaven.

Now, atheists say that God doesnt exist, but can anyone be 100% sure of anything. If a person chooses to be Christian, and in the end it turns out that the atheists were right, no big deal right?
However, if an atheist chooses not to believe in God, and in the end it turns out he or she is wrong, and there really is a God as the Christians said....then that atheist is one cooked duck.

What i'm trying to say, is that believing in God is a logical choice for eveyone, because the benefits outweigh the costs. If you're an atheist, there is no way that you are 100% sure in your belief. Trust me i know this...and even if you are 99.999% sure you are right, what about that .0001%? If there is even that minute of a chance that you are wrong, wouldn't it be worth it to take a leap of faith and believe in God.
It's a simple matter of cost vs. risk. In this case, many logical minds will (hopefully) come to the conclusion that it is the right choice to believe in God simply because not believing in Him entails the risk of eternal damnation.

Hopefully this inspires some good conversation.

A couple of points... first, you can't simply flick a switch and change your beliefs. People have reasons for believing in something, whether it's hard evidence, a gut feeling, or just their upbringing. Those things would have to be changed in order for the person's beliefs to be changed, and people usually can't do that voluntarily.

Secondly, atheism and Christianity aren't the only two options. There's a plethora of religions and beliefs out there. What if Christians and atheists are both wrong, and Islam is right? That's definitely a possibility, but I don't see too many Christians or atheists making a pilgrimage to Mecca. Or praying at the Wailing Wall. Or bathing in the Ganges.

We don't know which religion is right and which is wrong. But it's impossible for us to practice and believe in all of them. Your best bet is to just believe what you believe, and then wait and see what happens.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig

2. Ensuring your entrance into heaven.


I hear this argument alot. But do you really think God would let someone into heaven when they're a believer "just in case" there is a god?

i didnt read that.




atheism is only for smart people.

And there is Pascal's Wager...

Originally posted by internetjunkie
i didnt read that.




atheism is only for smart people. Well then kindly fuck off and dont try to derail the thread.


I started a thread almost like this about a year ago. I asked what would be the harm in believing in God. I feel it's basically a no lose proposition.

I Just Dont Understand (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3862&highlight=havok)

Uh, as jester said, the number of different religions? Place the number of religions at 200(oh, I'm sure there are more), you have a 0.5% chance of being right. Of the ones that have a rather large population(more than or equal to 2% of the world) believing in it, you have a 14% chance of being right. Are those safe percentages? I mean, with the kind of stuff that religions do to nonbelievers? I don't want to sit in a crowd just because he might be there and I don't want to get caught not believing. You have just as much chance as me getting it wrong, it's just that I don't care... and I still think I have more reason to think that a god doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Uh, as jester said, the number of different religions? Place the number of religions at 200(oh, I'm sure there are more), you have a 0.5% chance of being right. Of the ones that have a rather large population(more than or equal to 2% of the world) believing in it, you have a 14% chance of being right. Are those safe percentages? I mean, with the kind of stuff that religions do to nonbelievers? I don't want to sit in a crowd just because he might be there and I don't want to get caught not believing. You have just as much chance as me getting it wrong, it's just that I don't care... and I still think I have more reason to think that a god doesn't exist. Last I checked, I would have a better chance of being right with a 14% chance, as opposed to a 0% chance.

Look, im not telling you what to believe. In fact, im not a very good christian becaue I honestly do not care what happens to your soul. I feel we get what we get for the choices we make. So if you are comfortable with your choices, have at it. I just dont understand taking a chance like that when none of us know that God does or doesnt exist.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Last I checked, I would have a better chance of being right with a 14% chance, as opposed to a 0% chance.

Look, im not telling you what to believe. In fact, im not a very good christian becaue I honestly do not care what happens to your soul. I feel we get what we get for the choices we make. So if you are comfortable with your choices, have at it. I just dont understand taking a chance like that when none of us know that God does or doesnt exist.
Exactly, none of us know. Like Jester said, I can't just flip a switch and become Christian to "play the odds".

Maybe if some of the atheists out there would open themselves up to God, then He would give them guidance as to which system of beliefs they should choose. Choosing a religion to follow is by no means a light decision, and should be approached with much thought and prayer. However, if a person truly desires to find God, and find the true religion, then i'm sure God will not lead that person astray. But first, you must open yourself to God.

The "Safe Bet" argument is simply something for atheists to think about, to hopefully open their minds to the possibility of God, and from there go on to find God themselves.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Maybe if some of the atheists out there would open themselves up to God, then He would give them guidance as to which system of beliefs they should choose. Choosing a religion to follow is by no means a light decision, and should be approached with much thought and prayer. However, if a person truly desires to find God, and find the true religion, then i'm sure God will not lead that person astray. But first, you must open yourself to God.
I did that, and you know what? I'm agnostic now. :)
The "Safe Bet" argument is simply something for atheists to think about, to hopefully open their minds to the possibility of God, and from there go on to find God themselves.
Oh believe me, Pascal's Wager is something I considered back when I was studying religions. I still became agnostic.

However, if an atheist chooses not to believe in God, and in the end it turns out he or she is wrong, and there really is a God as the Christians said....then that atheist is one cooked duck.

When you say this you are really talking about any non-christian aren't you?

Still, the threat may be effective on some.

It's a simple matter of cost vs. risk. In this case, many logical minds will (hopefully) come to the conclusion that it is the right choice to believe in God simply because not believing in Him entails the risk of eternal damnation.

What about logical minds that believe in a Creator, but not from a Christian perspective?

*sighs*

I dont believe in a Higher power because quite frankly im not holding out for a second life.

This is the life i was giving and im going to live it doing the things i like doing, making mistakes and learning from them.

Has anyone ever questioned the possibilty that once you get to "heaven" that you will then have to obide completely by all 10 commandments and completely avoid the deadly sins. Not to mention that Heaven may be just another stepping stone and you will have to do another stint in keeping with a bunch of pre written codes to get to a higher level, always working towards the "better" future.

Ive been giving this lifetime to do what i can with it, and thats what im going to do. Until such a time as God makes some massive glorified statement announcing that Heaven exists, i wont be attempting to get in.

"Until such a time as God makes some massive glorified statement announcing that Heaven exists, i wont be attempting to get in."

Wait for the rapture. Hopefully that will be enough evidence to sway you in the direction of God. As it is now, the evidence is all around us, but many people refuse to see the plain truth.

Back to topic though...i personally believe that the only SURE way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, making me a Christian. However, i cannot say yes or no whether God will allow non-Christians into heaven. It is not my place to question that. I just hope that people will take the time to debate in their heads whether or not it is worth it to take a leap of faith and believe. For a long time i believed in God, but i wasn't Christian. Through lots of prayer and study however, i realized that Jesus is the true way. The first step though, is to aknowledge the fact that there is a God, and through Him, you will be led to the true path.

so you say

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
As it is now, the evidence is all around us, but many people refuse to see the plain truth.
Enlighten us with your newly discovered evidence, O Omniscient Craig.

Borg, there is no new evidence. It's the same evidence that people have used since the beginning of time to KNOW that there is a God. Not just justify there being a God, but KNOW that there is a God. I know it is tougher for intellectual types to grasp the concept (I was one before becoming Christian) because it requires a certain amount of faith, and its sometimes hard to accept things for fact that we cannot see.

However, once a person gets past that barrier that is between him and God, that person finally sees clearly. It takes faith to accept God, but once you accept Him, He is always there with you. Hopefully you'll get to that point one day Borg, but if you don't, that's no business of mine. With this thread, i simply wanted to open up conversation about a different reason for believing in God.

I know i've sounded a little too preachy so far, and i apologize for that. I know we all hold our own views on different aspects of religion, and from now on i'll try to limit my preaching in favor of using more educated points. As you know, i'm new here on this board, and i dont want to sound like some sort of fanatic, so from now on i will be more conscious of the views of others.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
However, if an atheist chooses not to believe in God, and in the end it turns out he or she is wrong, and there really is a God as the Christians said....then that atheist is one cooked duck.
:eek:

Originally posted by HaVoK

I started a thread almost like this about a year ago. I asked what would be the harm in believing in God. I feel it's basically a no lose proposition.

Absolutely.

If I could have a frontal lobotomy performed---or could be thoroughly hypnotized in some way-- I would begin believing right away.

Right this instant.

Who wouldn't jump at the chance to go thru life thinking they'd live forever in a Paradise?

Too bad it's a fantasy.

Thats what it falls down to, People needing to belief they wont die, that there lifes will have some meaning and purpose and that they can see all those people that they have lost.

Its the soft cushion that denys reality.

Also your post is called Argument against Atheism, you want an argument against us? Fair enough.

Craig tell me honestly and lets face it, you lie and God's going to know, Have you ever broken one of the 10 commandments and/or commited one of the deadly sins.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
It is a good bet to believe in God, and here is why. If you believe in God, and accept Jesus as your savior, you are doing 2 main things (from a Christian perspective).
1. Enriching your life with a belief system that has so many rewards, not only in heaven, but here on Earth also. Christians in general love life, and even if they have problems feel truly fufilled.

rewards???? just because someone takes up a religion does not mean they will feel they have been given even 1 reward.
2. Ensuring your entrance into heaven.

And you know this how? saying, and believing are 2 different things. I don't think God would be too happy if a person were believing in him just to get into a heaven. There is more to religion then getting your free pass to paradise.


Now, atheists say that God doesnt exist, but can anyone be 100% sure of anything. If a person chooses to be Christian, and in the end it turns out that the atheists were right, no big deal right?

this can work both ways if you say you believe just to get your free pass to paradise then that would be more wrong then not believing at all?


However, if an atheist chooses not to believe in God, and in the end it turns out he or she is wrong, and there really is a God as the Christians said....then that atheist is one cooked duck.

What if God doesn't give a hoot about mans religion, then I quess we would all go to the next level. If you don't believe what happens your still part of Gods creation, is God going to turn its back on its creation?

What i'm trying to say, is that believing in God is a logical choice for eveyone, because the benefits outweigh the costs. If you're an atheist, there is no way that you are 100% sure in your belief. Trust me i know this...and even if you are 99.999% sure you are right, what about that .0001%? If there is even that minute of a chance that you are wrong, wouldn't it be worth it to take a leap of faith and believe in God.

there is nothing logical about this, there is only the fear factor of going to a hell. logic needs proof, not fears that others have taught through the ages.


It's a simple matter of cost vs. risk. In this case, many logical minds will (hopefully) come to the conclusion that it is the right choice to believe in God simply because not believing in Him entails the risk of eternal damnation.

once again this is not logic it is fear. So the real question would be does a person really believe in their religion or are they being scared into a choice because they believe there is a bad place?

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Maybe if some of the atheists out there would open themselves up to God, then He would give them guidance as to which system of beliefs they should choose. Choosing a religion to follow is by no means a light decision, and should be approached with much thought and prayer. However, if a person truly desires to find God, and find the true religion, then i'm sure God will not lead that person astray. But first, you must open yourself to God.

The "Safe Bet" argument is simply something for atheists to think about, to hopefully open their minds to the possibility of God, and from there go on to find God themselves.

Most of the atheists I know have been open to god at one time or another in their life. And all of them that I know were raised in a religion. It isn't a matter of NOT opening themselves up to god, it is that they have and it didn't happen for them. Just like people who believe, atheists have looked within themselves and given a lot of thought to their choice. Choosing not to follow a religion is by no means an easy choice.

The "safe bet" argument is rediculous. God would know what is in a persons heart. Using religion like an insurance policy is wrong. Possibly that is why one can find so many unchristianlike people who call themselves christians. They say they are to cover their ass when they die, but they don't practice the principles of christianity.

I was raised in a very Catholic family and went to Catholic school. I always had a problem wrapping my mind around the idea of an all powerfull being with an agenda. A being that is all powerfull, doesn't need an agenda. In college I fell in love with a very religious man. I tried like heck to believe. Took classes, went to mass. Discussed god and religion with my friends and family. But it just never felt right and deap down inside in my heart I couldn'e reconcile myself with it.

Religious people have this strange idea that to not believe is a rejection of god. But many of us don't believe because it just isn't there for us. It isn't that we reject god, we just don't "get" it. It makes no sense to us.

Lokidevilduck, every human on this planet right now is a sinner, including me. There is no getting around the fact that each one of us sins. But through Jesus we are forgiven, so when one accepts Jesus as his/her personal savior, and asks forgiveness for sins, then that person is saved. I was very much a sinner before i found Jesus, and i still am a sinner, but through Christ i am forgiven.

I realize that its tough for everyone to come to terms with God, and hopefully someday God will help all of you to see the truth.

Really, its a matter of forsaking human logic, and relying on something greater than ourselves to guide us. I know that it's tough for a lot of people to accept the fact that us humans are not #1, but in order to accept God, we must realize that there is an infinitely greater entity than ourselves.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig

Really, its a matter of forsaking human logic

I agree completely.

And while you may have the ability to forsake logic and give yourself over to belief in an invisible, omnipotent man-in-the-sky..........for some of us it just isn't possible.

We're stuck with reality.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Really, its a matter of forsaking human logic, and relying on something greater than ourselves to guide us.
Forsaking logic is simply not something I am willing to do.

Well, then i'll pray for you guys every night, until one day you'll see that there is more to this world than logic conjured up by imperfect human minds.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Well, then i'll pray for you guys every night, until one day you'll see that there is more to this world than logic conjured up by imperfect human minds.
I've always found the statement "I'll pray for you" exceedingly arrogant. I'd just as soon you didn't, but whatever...

Come on. A little prayer never hurt anyone. What loss will you suffer by me praying for you?

I does not bother me to have people pray for me. However it does bother me when they say it to make the insunuation that I will not be OK without their efforts to rescue me through prayer.
It comes off sounding extremely condescending.

Most non believers just want people to keep their religion to themselves. We are not stupid. We know where to go to find god if we want to. We do not need to have religion advertised to us.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Come on. A little prayer never hurt anyone. What loss will you suffer by me praying for you?
None, that's why I didn't make any great fuss about it. I really don't appreciate your praying for me, though, because of what Echo said above.

So ok then,

Say for instance you have a middle aged man who has systimatically rapped and tortured 40 odd children on his path of self and others destruction. According to you, this man has to simply give himelf over to christ, and through christ he is forgiven.

A women whom perhaps fancied your father and then brutally butchered your mother out of jealously. If she accepts Christ according to you, she is off to Heaven.

What a beautiful place that really must be if there are those kinds of people wandering around..... but wait? whats that.... God wouldnt let those evil people in?

If he/she stands at the pearly gates and says that "Sorry, Jesus didnt actually take on 'Everyones' sins, just a select few... read the small print" im pretty sure that destroys the whole point of jesus dying in the first place.

Me personally, i have total respect for christians whom believe in god because they feel in their heart its true and through that it makes them a better person. Its the ones who seem to think just saying they believe in it will get them a free pass to Heaven that piss me off, and even more so when they try and preach this crap on others.

*coughs* excuse the venting

Its the ones who seem to think just saying they believe in it will get them a free pass to Heaven that piss me off

Its not just saying you believe in God. It's actually repenting in your heart, and truly seeking forgiveness. There's a difference between saying you believe in something and actually believing in it. God knows the difference. And yes, Jesus made it clear that all sinners are welcome in Christ if they turn themselves over to Him and truly ask forgiveness.

If he/she stands at the pearly gates and says that "Sorry, Jesus didnt actually take on 'Everyones' sins, just a select few... read the small print" im pretty sure that destroys the whole point of jesus dying in the first place.

Jesus did take on everyone's sins...if they are willing to repent.

Say for instance you have a middle aged man who has systimatically rapped and tortured 40 odd children on his path of self and others destruction. According to you, this man has to simply give himelf over to christ, and through christ he is forgiven.

Yes, if that person is truly sorry, and accepts Jesus in his heart, then that person is forgiven.

Do you by chance have a beard, wear loin clothes and go to anyone who passes by "Come my children, lets sit about the grass and think happy thoughts, mmmmmmmm hmmmmmm"

So Hell is for everyone who didnt choose Jesus, is what your saying.

So Hell is for everyone who didnt choose Jesus, is what your saying.

I don't know this for certain. What i do know is that the only true path is through Jesus. If you accept Jesus as your savior, then you are guaranteed entrance into heaven. As to the other paths, i really can't say for sure. That is up to God to decide, and i have no business questioning Him.

Do you by chance have a beard, wear loin clothes and go to anyone who passes by "Come my children, lets sit about the grass and think happy thoughts, mmmmmmmm hmmmmmm"

lol, is that the impression i'm giving to everyone? If so i guess i'm at least getting my point across. Usually, the better a person presents himself in a debate, the more the other person must resort to using sentences like the one above to try to shift the topic from the facts.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
I don't know this for certain. What i do know is that the only true path is through Jesus.

I call that serious, mental, dillusion and massive massive ignorance of every other religion/faith out there.

Just because i feel that my faith is the correct one doesn't mean that i am ignorant of other faiths. I simply go by what the Bible says, which is that the only sure way to salvation is through Christ.

John14:6 Jesus saith unto him "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Stone;

At the top of this page I think Lokideviluk brings up a good point. I have heard many Christians say except and you will go to heaven. So a person decides one day he/she hates people so they go around killing then when their done they just except Jesus and go live in perfect peace forever? If this is Gods word then this would be one screwed up dude.

You also mention sins what sins would keep a person out of heaven and how many times would they get away with committing a sin before God just got plain P.O.

Mad Dog. God knows if a person is truly sorry. If someone goes around killing, and then pretends to accept Jesus, this is obviously not valid. In order to be saved you must truly accept Jesus in your heart, body, soul, and mind. You can't just pretend, and think God won't know the difference. God is omniscient, therefore He knows all, including what's in each of our hearts.

Mad Dog, what kind of god do you believe in? One who won't accept apology? One who condemns mistakes and will not forgive? One who judges based on acts alone, therefore one person does the bare minimum and gets in, whereas another serves his whole life and still goes to the same place?

God does not judge based on acts, He judges based on the person's acceptance of Him, and more specifically, acceptance of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
God does not judge based on acts, He judges based on the person's acceptance of Him, and more specifically, acceptance of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Mt.16:27
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

2 Cor.5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Jas.2:14
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

Jas.2:21-25
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

1 Pet.1:17
"The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work."

Rev.20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Why does your god need to be worshiped? Is he insecure? Why does he create a being with the ability to make decisions and then punish that being for making a decision he doesn't like?

Why give mankind the ability to use logic and then punish him for useing it?

If he wants to be worshipped so bad why not make himself believable to the very beings he gave free thought and logic to?

The entire idea is so circular and illogical that an omnipotent being would have nothing to do with it. Just doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by Echo2
Why does your god need to be worshiped? Is he insecure? Why does he create a being with the ability to make decisions and then punish that being for making a decision he doesn't like?

Why give mankind the ability to use logic and then punish him for useing it?

If he wants to be worshipped so bad why not make himself believable to the very beings he gave free thought and logic to?

The entire idea is so circular and illogical that an omnipotent being would have nothing to do with it. Just doesn't make sense.
Amen, Echo. :thumbs:

Borg: If a person accepts Jesus, it is natural for that person to do good works. The point i was trying to make was that good works alone cannot get you into heaven. You must first accept Christ, and after acceptance, good works come natural. Having faith in Jesus means abiding by the Bible, and in the Gospels Jesus clearly outlines what kind of life a good Christian should lead. If a person professes faith, but does no good works, then that person is most likely lying about their faith. Part of having faith in God involves following His will.

However, i do admit that my quote was misleading, and i could have chosen better wording. I should have said that God doesn't judge based on "acts alone." I was simply trying to get the point across.

Luke.12:8-9 "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God."

John.3: 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

(i'm running late right now. I have more to adress, so i'll continue in about 2 hours.)

Echo: God doesn't need to be worshiped. He'll get along just fine whether or not we worship him. We however, should acknowledge the fact that the sole reason we are on this earth is because of His benevolence. The only reason we even exist is because of God, and therefore, we should be more than grateful for that gift.

Why give mankind the ability to use logic and then punish him for useing it?

Through logic, i came to the conclusion that God exists. Through prayer and reading i found Jesus. And now my faith exceeds my logic. However, logic led me to God in the first place. If you can see all that is in this world, and not realize there is a creator, then i fail to even comprehend your logic.

If he wants to be worshipped so bad why not make himself believable to the very beings he gave free thought and logic to?

If you don't believe in God, then you are in the minority on this earth. Most people believe in some sort of God, the difference is in the way in which they worship Him. The majority of people find God very believable, even people with plenty of free thought and logic. The question i pose, is "How could someone with so much free thought and logic not see how clear it is that God exists?"

The entire idea is so circular and illogical that an omnipotent being would have nothing to do with it. Just doesn't make sense.

It may not make any sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me and the other millions of Christians around the world. Once again, it is a matter of the way in which we see things...personally, i can't see how you can feel that it doesnt make any sense. Also, how is it at all illogical?

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Mad Dog. God knows if a person is truly sorry. If someone goes around killing, and then pretends to accept Jesus, this is obviously not valid. In order to be saved you must truly accept Jesus in your heart, body, soul, and mind. You can't just pretend, and think God won't know the difference. God is omniscient, therefore He knows all, including what's in each of our hearts.

Mad Dog, what kind of god do you believe in? One who won't accept apology? One who condemns mistakes and will not forgive? One who judges based on acts alone, therefore one person does the bare minimum and gets in, whereas another serves his whole life and still goes to the same place?

God does not judge based on acts, He judges based on the person's acceptance of Him, and more specifically, acceptance of His Son, Jesus Christ.

So god is saying "Main the shit out of each other, so long as at the end of the day you still think im the Daddy"

Stone the good thing for you is youve came here and are being subjected to the harsh realitys of a religion you quite clearly have been sold upon by one sided christians.

This at least will allow you a chance to ask some question about the "faith" youve choosen to believe. Nice one Borg & Echo.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Mad Dog, what kind of god do you believe in?

I believe in a higher force I won't pretend to know what it is because NO ONE really does.

One who won't accept apology?

this is a human emotion it may not be worth toilet paper to God/Gods

One who condemns mistakes and will not forgive?

Why would God forgive something that kills just for the thrill, power etc... Once again forgivness is a human emotion, maybe God is simple or maybe It is way out of our relm.

One who judges based on acts alone, therefore one person does the bare minimum and gets in, whereas another serves his whole life and still goes to the same place?

maybe in the end we all end up in the same place or maybe we end up in different place NO one knows for sure.

God does not judge based on acts, He judges based on the person's acceptance of Him, and more specifically, acceptance of His Son, Jesus Christ.

So you know this for sure? sounds to me like you are speaking for God? The Bible is a learning tool written by humans it is NOT Gods word, if it were this simple then God would have straightened out this whole missunderstanding of religions. Humans form their religion, then for some reason they feel they can tell others how God feels and what It believes, why? No matter what religion anyone belongs to they do not know God, they only know the way they feel. Maybe there is more then 1 God, maybe ALL religions are correct, maybe God was just a creator and moved on nothing more??????

If a person accepts Jesus, it is natural for that person to do good works

False. www.truechristian.com . Nuff said.

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
Once again, it is a matter of the way in which we see things...personally, i can't see how you can feel that it doesnt make any sense. Also, how is it at all illogical?

Stonewall - You asked how it is illogical. So here is my oppinion about why I find it illogical.

I have never been able to wrap my mind around the idea of an all powerful being with an agenda. If an entity is all powerful, It wouldn't need an agenda. Why does it have a need to be worshipped? You say it doesn't have a need to be worshipped yet according to it's teachings we will burn in hell forever if we don't. I'd call that a threat. "Do this or else."

2nd Commandment; Verses 4-6: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

The second part of this is what really throws me. Can anyone explain this insanity?

I have a dog, the dog doesn’t do what I want so instead of killing it (too quick) or beating it to within an inch of its life (to easy) or taking it to behavior classes (not enough sport?) I decide that I am going to breed it and torture its puppies for generations to come. Letting them die of starvation and disease.

To create something with free will, insist it worship you, and then punish it for not doing so is pure insanity.

To create a being with intelligence and logic and then insist it believe in you on “faith” alone is insanity.

To create a being with intelligence and logic and then leave ancient books with hundreds of contradictory passages and hundreds of dubious analogies for that being to try and decipher is cruel.

To allow for thousands of years, children and adults to die over squabbles of whether it exists is heartless, cruel and cold blooded.

If this entity exists, it is not loving or good and certainly doesn’t deserve to be worshiped. It should be hated and feared. Maybe Satan has pulled off a huge practical joke on all these people who think they are worshipping an entity that is good and loving.

I see nothing good and loving about this creature. I keep hearing about it being good and loving but have yet to witness any evidence that it gives a rats ass about human beings.

Just my oppinion.

That True christian site is shocking!! cant beleieve that even exists!!

Once again, it comes down to the same argument that we've been having for the past several days. Human rationalizations of what we cannot understand vs. faith in the Lord. I put my faith in a higher power. Most of you put your faith in human teachings. Are you blind? Can you not see that there is something greater out there? Are you all convinced that us humans are #1, because the truth is, we are not.

Ephesians.4:14 "so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming."

If this entity exists, it is not loving or good and certainly doesn’t deserve to be worshiped. It should be hated and feared. Maybe Satan has pulled off a huge practical joke on all these people who think they are worshipping an entity that is good and loving.

I don't even know how to respond to that. To think that someone who seems as educated as you could have that much hate for his creator. I only hope that you soon come to your senses about such things. To so openly blaspheme the name of the Lord! Who are you to question the motives of the Lord?!? Don't you realize how lucky you are to even be here? Maybe instead of over-thinking every little issue that comes about in that brain of yours, you chould try praying to the Lord, YOUR God. That's right, He is still your God, whether you acknowledge Him or not.

Stone the good thing for you is youve came here and are being subjected to the harsh realitys of a religion you quite clearly have been sold upon by one sided christians.

Loki, i found Christianity on my own, through prayer and the Bible. I originally rejected Christ. I was raised Catholic, but wanted nothing to do with it after 12 years. However, i found that something in my life was missing. Haven't any of you ever felt that emptiness in your lives. That hole in your heart, that lack of understanding? Through Christ we come to understand the truth. As to all of your petty arguments against Christ, they only make Christians more steadfast in our faith. Loki, how about you pick up a Bible, read the New Testament, and then we'll talk about the harsh realities of my religion.

As for TrueChristian.com, I can tell you right now that whoever runs that site has not accepted Jesus. Read some of it. The website plainly says that they endorse the hate of most everybody. In fact, i'm sure if i talked to whoever ran that site, they would most likely call me an infidel or some sort. They obviously have not heard Jesus' message, or if they have heard it they've disregarded it. Sadly, it is extremists like that who give Christians a bad name.

Originally posted by CX returns
False. www.truechristian.com . Nuff said.
Christ, man, learn to recognize a parody when you see it...

You know what Stone, i actually will do that, simply because lets face it, im trying to argue about a book ive never even read so how in the hell can i come up with well grounded arguments.

Its going to take a little while (dont have masses of time for reading etc) but stay on these boards and i will post about it once ive finished.

As with the feeling empty etc, Hellyeh all the time, and i honestly did at one point look at the fact that the happy little christian suburban familys seemed to live such erririly happy ways, so i forced myself to have a go.... but did you see the word i used. "forced", it wasnt natural at all, my brain kept rejecting the concept saying "Its not real?" . I thankfully was taught the foundations of the scientific reasons as to our exsistance so wont be switching sides any time soon.

But there is one thing, If i knew "believing" would clear up some of my self hate issues and lead me to be happy 24/7 id probably give it another go, however i really dont believe it would do that.

this part is funniest

Kidz Page (http://www.truechristian.com/confessionbooth.html)

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
. Most of you put your faith in human teachings. Are you blind? [quote]

what do you think the Bible is... human teachings

[quote] Can you not see that there is something greater out there?

that does not mean that any human understands this being.

Ephesians.4:14 "so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming."

A writting from a human trying to teach,.,.,. interesting



Haven't any of you ever felt that emptiness in your lives. That hole in your heart, that lack of understanding?

sure have also feel Christianity knows as much as anyone/thing else.

As to all of your petty arguments against Christ, they only make Christians more steadfast in our faith.

steadfast or stubborn, if it helps build your faith then it is a good thing, if it makes you question then it is a good thing, but if it makes you angery then that means you have your own doubts?

Sadly, it is extremists like that who give Christians a bad name.

you are correct, bad extremists in any religion can give a bad name.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Christ, man, learn to recognize a parody when you see it...

yeah, bad example. Robert Lee's a better one i guess.