THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:2-6

I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Problem: Right off the bat, "God" starts out protesting too loud. If you're God, just be God, and don't waste your credibility insisting all over the place about it. And don't be threatening to unjustly punish the innocent children of "those that hate me". So far, not a God that inspires my allegiance. More like a bully with lightningbolts.

Oh, but that's right: This "God" is largely a Roman hierarchy construct, supported by the careful selection of a few choice gospels among hundreds of discarded and burned; and even the total body of gospels were designed as part of a tradition of mythology, and would reflect the tribal rivalries that were if anything 2 millenia less diluted than today.
Right.

THE SECOND COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:7

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.

Problem: Wasting a whole commandment just to basically reiterate extra respect as in the inappropriately first commandment. If respect is to be received extra, it is to be earned, not demanded.

THE THIRD COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:8-11

Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. But of the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day, and sanctified it.

Problem: Micromanaging my freakin' life? Get the blank outa my blank! This is a$$uming I would imitate you to a tee, and a$$uming I even believe in your precocious self at this point, after the first two commandments. Let me tell you, if my baby has a soiled tchrapka, or whatever it was called back then, I'm darn sure gonna change it, Sunday or no Sunday.

THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:12

Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayest be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee.

Problem: Good commandment, wrong position. Pretty much, the "I am thy God, fear me" commandments have poisoned the whole thing by pushing the real ones down on the list.

THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:13

Thou shalt not kill.

Problem: Again, good commandment, wrong position. Even if God was bound and determined to growl first, he could still have put the rest of the commandments in the right order. Then it would have been merely shifted. But, nooo, he has to have them practically backwards. The only explanation for honoring being above not killing is again that this is a society of tribal tensions. But, so, okay - this is in the context of the day - which is why it doesn't apply the same today!

THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:14

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Good commandment, no problem. (Except of course the order is still all screwed up)

THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:15

Thou shalt not steal.

Good commandment, no problem. (Except of course the order is still all screwed up)

THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:16

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Good commandment, no problem. (Except of course the order is still all screwed up)

THE NINTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:17

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's... wife.

Good commandment, except for redundancy. This was covered 80% under adultery and 20% under the tenth, below. (And of course the order is still all screwed up)

THE TENTH COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:17

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; neither shalt thou desire... his servant, nor his handmaiden, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his.

Problem: Ignores the basic principle that emotions are okay, it is behavior that must be controlled. It's great to prohibit covetting; but trying to prohibit desire is an effort born of denial and resulting in futility. Of course, this is just yet another example of the context of the time, since they didn't know as much about social work and psychology back then -- which just goes to my point of how it's not applicable today! (And of course the order is still all screwed up)


I'm sure you're dying to know - how would I put the commandments in order?

1. Don't kill unless you absolutely must in defense of yourself or (a) loved one(s).
2. Don't steal or lie.
3. Honor your elders: give them compassion and respect.
4. Honor yourself: tell the full truth, ask for what you need.
5. Love your neighbors: have compassion for them, believe folks to be innocent until proved guilty.
6. Build community: Give of what you are lucky to have plenty.
7. Don't covet; don't expect; live by an example of earning.
8. Extend compassion into other living beings: Don't kill animals unless necessary for survival; and at all times be merciful.
9. Take time to give thanks to deity and/or earth and/or ancestors.
10. Respect the diversity of thanksgivings of others.

As you can see, some were editted right out, and some new ones added. But what felt cool about this is that they rolled right off my tongue. I could probably go well beyond ten, to closer to twenty, the commandments gradually getting less significant as you go.

There's one big problem with your argument. You are not God, and therefore you have no insight into why He put them in the order He did. Also, you have failed to mention the two most important commandments, given to us by Jesus Christ.
~Love God with your whole heart, your whole mind, and your whole body.
~Treat others as you would have them treat you.

I'm assuming that you're an atheist...but even if you're not i still encourage you to study the New Testament of the Bible, as that is where the most valuable information is.

Well, let me address a couple of points...
Originally posted by StonewallCraig
There's one big problem with your argument. You are not God, and therefore you have no insight into why He put them in the order He did.
Now, you have no way of knowing that any more than I have of believing that God said those concepts using human words.
But believe me, my point with this passage is not to try to pretend to be God or anything. That nerve I showed is just a mechanism to drive home my broader point, which is this:
God as a factual concept, talking in articulate human words is a futile model for really bringing people together on policy. That's why it is valuable to separate church and state. I've got a lot more in common with people who talk of God communicating by inspiration or by an upwelling of pure, raw emotion, sometimes seemingly out of nowhere. The discrete-bullet-points "God" is a product of corrupted power.
Also, you have failed to mention the two most important commandments, given to us by Jesus Christ.
~Love God with your whole heart, your whole mind, and your whole body.
~Treat others as you would have them treat you.
Those should be much more often promoted than they are. But they are a softer sell. It is much easier to promote the harsh, hawkish 10-commandments-package, which is why it turns up in legal and political debates more often. You'll of course note that the 2 you mention are not found in the common ten I quote, or on any of the various granite plaques that have had short residencies on federal and state properties in recent years.
In fact when the "Golden rule" is published and promoted by a government, it is not met with as much controversy, does not get much attention, and better represents society universally, not just Judeo-Christians.
I'm assuming that you're an atheist...but even if you're not i still encourage you to study the New Testament of the Bible, as that is where the most valuable information is. Well, I am agnostic, but I could no more prove my model than anyone else. I merely live life through pattern recognition. If God exists, he hasn't made himself known to me in a way that inspires me to use the word "God". But--I do find plenty of miraculousness to occupy my faith.

On the new testament, or both old and new, for that matter... I have tried to read them, and one day maybe I will really finish. But I find them boring, and I also find the effort hard to justify in the light of so much else, like, as I mentioned above, how much censorship and editorship we suffer in our Roman version of the bible. And in how much the relevance has changed since the days of absolutely hopeless tribal warfare.


Many people see the middle east still as a hopelessly warring region. And to be sure, there is plenty of tragedy there for anyone looking. But I personally believe the next greatest peace movement the world has ever seen will spring from there. The holy lands are a campus for a college of peace, where much of the coursework is learning war, then unlearning it in favor of peace.
Do you realize that the most important conflict going on there now is not between religions, races, between cultures over land, or even between classes? The most important conflict in the holy land right now is between war and peace.

Starling, i applaud you.

heavy.....

According to Biblical prophecy, there needs to be peace in the Middle East (between Israel and the other countries) before the return of Christ is possible. As you say, we are indeed close to a time of peace...coincidence?

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
According to Biblical prophecy, there needs to be peace in the Middle East (between Israel and the other countries) before the return of Christ is possible. As you say, we are indeed close to a time of peace...coincidence?
Do you have any evidence that there is a correlation?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
Starling, i applaud you.
Why, thank you. :)

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
According to Biblical prophecy, there needs to be peace in the Middle East (between Israel and the other countries) before the return of Christ is possible. As you say, we are indeed close to a time of peace...coincidence?
Ahhh, no. At least I would say that it is not mostly, much less all coincidence. I would instead say that there is a large proportion of self-fulfilling prophesy mixed in.
But some of it is chance. History's slow march into worldwide civilization, and the formation of Israel help reinforce the rolling of the self-fulfilling prophesy snowball. Of course, it is all a matter of which tail you believe is wagging which dog or vice versa.


BTW, has anyone read the Da Vinci Code? It is interesting to consider what it might take for a middle east peacemaker to be considered the returned Christ. If Christ did indeed have a wife and child (information that Rome would have been interested in suppressing), and that information is in the Holy Grail, then an actual provable relative of Christ might be chosen and informed to lead world peace. It might be a lot harder for an ordinary Palestinian or Israeli to take on the role, at least with popular support. Look to Lebanon for someone with plenty of family experience in war, and no particular chosen side of the Israel / Palestine issue. One cool thing is -- if a Christ relative is revealed, modern genetics will be able to prove it! Even if the person is a distant cousin, any significant hereditary proximity will have a wow-factor with the rest of the world. But after all, what is the middle east full of? Why, people who have a closer-than-baseline cousin relationship to Christ!