My question is a pretty complicated one for me to get across so ill try as best i can.

Before Jesus Christ came along and created (once again, havent read the bible so feel free to explain my mistakes) ... Christianity. What Religions were there? What were their main religious groups?

Just I cant imagine from the dawn of human existance they worshiped their god, and i also cant imagine they had the 12 Commandments from the offset so how could those people know they were commiting sin (as described by the 7 deadly sins etc). If a person commits those sins today and doesnt repent he/she will go to Hell (or so we are told), was the same true of those people before the bible existed?

The way I see it is the bible was created as a form of control, which worked (and all credit to its writers and intial publicators) amazingly.

But yeh, bit of a hashed mess of questions, but that sorta represents my understanding so feel free to quote, and explain im wrong :)

Ryan

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
[quote]Before Jesus Christ came along and created (once again, havent read the bible so feel free to explain my mistakes) ... Christianity. What Religions were there? What were their main religious groups?

religions can be traced back to the cave man, there are all sorts with many different beliefs.

Just I cant imagine from the dawn of human existance they worshiped their god, and i also cant imagine they had the 12 Commandments from the offset so how could those people know they were commiting sin (as described by the 7 deadly sins etc). If a person commits those sins today and doesnt repent he/she will go to Hell (or so we are told), was the same true of those people before the bible existed?

Talk of hell and satan came with the Christians, it was a tool used to scare people to convert. Yes, there were bad spirits before satan, but as for an over all evil hell, no. Alot of the old religion just believed they went onto the next life, spirit world, reincarnation, etc...


The way I see it is the bible was created as a form of control, which worked (and all credit to its writers and intial publicators) amazingly.

Religion back then was like money today, the more followers you had the more power you had.

like mob rule. Religion wasn't all that powerful though; the Romans went around killing christians, there was that whole catholic vs protestant thing in GB, not to mention the crusades. To distort mad dog's turn of phrase, religion was more like gambling... And life is like a box of chocolates - ok I'll stop now.

Talk of hell and satan came with the Christians, it was a tool used to scare people to convert.
I hear comments like this all the time. When you people say stuff like this it sounds like you are insinuating that people didn't actually believe in hell or Satan, they just made it up to scare people. Do you really believe this?

Oh, and by the way, the idea of hell was around way before Christ.

-- Oh, and by the way, the idea of hell was around way before christ. --

Meaning what? People believed in an underworld of sorts ruled by the Devil?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
-- Oh, and by the way, the idea of hell was around way before christ. --

Meaning what? People believed in an underworld of sorts ruled by the Devil?

Uh, yeah, that is what Hell is....a place of eternal torture and pain.....God had warned us of Hell before the coming of Christ.

How may i ask did "God" warn everyone about hell before the coming of Christ?

A pet peeve of mine is confusing Jesus with God.

Jesus is God incarnate but Jesus had limits and fears. God has neither.

(when I say "limits" I mean simple things like he was a certain size, he was born at a certain time, he had mass etc..)

Oh, and by the way, the idea of hell was around way before Christ.
Nope, there was an afterlife, but no hell. Christianity was the first religion to introduce two locations polar opposite from each other, eternal happiness in heaven, or eternal damnation and torture in hell. I don't think the old testament makes any mention of what happens to those who don't believe in god when they die. But other religions certainly don't have to places, they all have one. How your afterlife is depends on how good you were, and it varies. No polar opposites, no devil, no eternal torture for just not believing, no eternal torture for one mistake. Oh, and that was afterlife religions, others, hindu specifically, had reincarnations.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
How may i ask did "God" warn everyone about hell before the coming of Christ?


This isn't a direct response to your question, but if you study any forms of Greek and or Roman Mythology, you will find where Christianity derived its basic framework for Hell and many other aspects of the Christian faith. Christianity started as just another mystery religion as they were called. The main difference being is that the teachings of Christ gave people a choice of going to heaven, which most of the other religions did not. Hell was always the final destination for a sinful life on earth. Thus most people began to follow the belief that there might be a positive afterlife for them, and the teachings of Christ took of like wildfire.
Christianity throughout time has adopted many things from many different religions. For example You can compare many stories from the Illiad, and Odyssey to stories from the bible. Ie. The story of Noah and the flood v. flood of Gilgamesh. So Christianity isn't tha only religion to posess this story. The Bablonians, Hebrew, Hindu, Greek, Roman and most American Indian tribes ect...... all have used this story throughout their writings. They all basically share the same characteristics.

Humans are guilty of transgression.

A God sends a flood as punishment.

Instructions are sent to an individual to build a craft.

The instructions include ensuring the survival of all species.

The flood destroys the old race.

After the flood, a new, less sinful race emerges to repopulate the earth.


Also you could look into the comparison between Jesus the hero v. Herakles (Hercules) the hero. The twelve labors of Herakles is a good way to start to find correlations.
The point is that some people look into Christianity as always being the alpha and omega of religions, mainly because it is the major religion in America, and we as humans have such a short life span and mainly focus on the here and now. But Christianity is just a great example of how

Sorry Blib, I didn't see your post before I replied. We must have been thinking the same thing at the same time.

Nope, there was an afterlife, but no hell. Christianity was the first religion to introduce two locations polar opposite from each other, eternal happiness in heaven, or eternal damnation and torture in hell. I don't think the old testament makes any mention of what happens to those who don't believe in god when they die.

Really Blob? That's interesting, I didn't know you were a Bibilical scholar. You don't strike me as the Bible-reading type.

Just a few mentions of Hell in the Old Testament:

Psalm 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

2 Samuel 22:6 - The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Job 11:8 - It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Just a few mentions of Hell in the Old Testament:
Okay, so far "hell" is in there, now how about one that explains it like the New Testament does?

Meaning what? A visual description?

I don’t believe in God, so I guess there wouldn’t be anything before God, since he never existed. ;)

To reply the topic:

Before Jesus Christ came along and created (once again, havent read the bible so feel free to explain my mistakes) ... Christianity. What Religions were there? What were their main religious groups?


Before big, systematic, organized religions like Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam came along, there existed numerous "religions" all over the ancient world in the form of folk beliefs. The Greek mythological system was just a very large composition of such folk beliefs enriched by very good story tellers (such as Homer). The Chinese traditional belief system also existed as folklores more than 3 thousand years ago.

Just I cant imagine from the dawn of human existance they worshiped their god, and i also cant imagine they had the 12 Commandments from the offset so how could those people know they were commiting sin (as described by the 7 deadly sins etc). If a person commits those sins today and doesnt repent he/she will go to Hell (or so we are told), was the same true of those people before the bible existed?

Naturally what makes a person sinful depends on the particular religion the community majority agree upon. Because the early civilizations enjoyed more pronounced isolations, usually an entire community believe in the same set of folklores.

Today of course with religious freedom our government does not decide what is "sinful", for doing that would mean the government chooses an official religion. Each individual decides what they believe in, and their belief tells them what is sinful.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
I hear comments like this all the time. When you people say stuff like this it sounds like you are insinuating that people didn't actually believe in hell or Satan, they just made it up to scare people. Do you really believe this?

Sorry Dave I was blunt, I did not mean any harm. The fact still remains that hell is used to help convert even in todays life. I'm sure there are those that can except Christ and never think twice about a hell, but even today in modern churches all across the land hell is still a scare tactic. If you believe in Jesus then why not dovote 99% of your time talking about him? Turn on the TV find a religious channel and chances are they will be talking about hell, fire and brimstone. Not love, understanding, and God.

Oh, and by the way, the idea of hell was around way before Christ.

Hell????? tell me who talked about it before the belief of a Christ? There was talk of bad {evil} places but not hell.

Originally posted by Blibblob
[b]Oh, and by the way, the idea of hell was around way before Christ.
Nope, there was an afterlife, but no hell. Christianity was the first religion to introduce two locations polar opposite from each other, eternal happiness in heaven, or eternal damnation and torture in hell.

thank you Blib

But other religions certainly don't have two places, they all have one. How your afterlife is depends on how good you were, and it varies. No polar opposites, no devil, no eternal torture for just not believing, no eternal torture for one mistake.

This is also true they believed what happened happened there is no need to make up a horrible place to scare people.

The fact still remains that hell is used to help convert even in todays life.
Well that may be true, but I think the people that use it that way do believe what they are saying. Besides, if you're sharing the Christian religion with someone I think you would be leaving out some important info if you didn't mention hell.

If you believe in Jesus then why not dovote 99% of your time talking about him? Turn on the TV find a religious channel and chances are they will be talking about hell, fire and brimstone. Not love, understanding, and God.
Hmmm... I really have to disagree strongly with this. I've been going to Church every Sunday for many years and I don't remember once hearing a sermon about hell. It is mentioned but never is it a central theme to your average sermon. The love and forgiveness of God is a MUCH more common topic in my experience.

Hell????? tell me who talked about it before the belief of a Christ?
I posted a few scriptures that mention hell in the Old Testament. Christ wasn't around until the New Testament.

So what Religion where all these people going along before they turned to Christianity, cause im assuming it would be the same people who had the "faith" that joined up

So what Religion where all these people going along before they turned to Christianity, cause im assuming it would be the same people who had the "faith" that joined up
Well for one thing, before Christ came to earth there were people like Moses, Noah, David, etc etc. Essentially, Jews.

I'm sure there were plenty of other religious beliefs in the BC era as well.

So then hang on a second,

Whilst little Jesus Christ was growing up im pretty sure those around him would have been teaching him their own religion and so in actual Fact Jesus was a 'Insert whatever relgion the guys that taught him were'

Did he reach like 20 or something and decided he'd make his own religion?

Didnt do to badly really all things considered.

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
So then hang on a second,

Whilst little Jesus Christ was growing up im pretty sure those around him would have been teaching him their own religion and so in actual Fact Jesus was a 'Insert whatever relgion the guys that taught him were'

Did he reach like 20 or something and decided he'd make his own religion?

Didnt do to badly really all things considered.
What? You realize that Jesus essentially WAS GOD, right?

Originally posted by Lokideviluk
So then hang on a second,

Whilst little Jesus Christ was growing up im pretty sure those around him would have been teaching him their own religion and so in actual Fact Jesus was a 'Insert whatever relgion the guys that taught him were'

Did he reach like 20 or something and decided he'd make his own religion?

Didnt do to badly really all things considered.


Jesus was a Jew!:rolleyes: Jesus essentially "felt" that he was the son of God.

So Christians are all in fact Jewish... beautiful :)

Originally posted by mad dog
Hell????? tell me who talked about it before the belief of a Christ? There was talk of bad {evil} places but not hell.

The Old Testament mentions Hell not once, but 31 times.

The Old Testament mentions Hell not once, but 31 times.
Where? Dave gave us three. Now I want ones that describe it. Not ones that just go "hell!" somewhere in it.

Originally posted by Blibblob
The Old Testament mentions Hell not once, but 31 times.
Where? Dave gave us three. Now I want ones that describe it. Not ones that just go "hell!" somewhere in it.

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6).

"The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire." Isaiah 1:
31

Job 33
16 he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride,
18 to preserve his soul from the pit, [1]
his life from perishing by the sword. [2]
19 Or a man may be chastened on a bed of pain
with constant distress in his bones,
20 so that his very being finds food repulsive
and his soul loathes the choicest meal.
21 His flesh wastes away to nothing,
and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.
22 His soul draws near to the pit, [3]
and his life to the messengers of death. [4]

23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,
24 to be gracious to him and say,
'Spare him from going down to the pit [5] ;
I have found a ransom for him'-
25 then his flesh is renewed like a child's;
it is restored as in the days of his youth.
26 He prays to God and finds favor with him,
he sees God's face and shouts for joy;
he is restored by God to his righteous state.
27 Then he comes to men and says,
'I sinned, and perverted what was right,
but I did not get what I deserved.
28 He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, [6]
and I will live to enjoy the light.'

29 "God does all these things to a man-
twice, even three times-
30 to turn back his soul from the pit, [7]
that the light of life may shine on him.


Isaiah 66
24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."


Isaiah 33
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Well Blib, you really had to have been there... ;)

Seriously - how were they (the bible writers) supposed to describe hell? how would they know? other than there's a bad place opposite to heaven. even describing heaven would have been a long shot.

and how how how how how, could they possibly know of heaven and hell?? Surely someone at some point had to have invented it and called it Hell and Heaven, not to mention that it wasnt written in english and so intepretation was probably used and a certain degree of flexibility when deciphering etc.

I swear the bible has suffered a ripple effect much like chinese whispears from its creation (all credit to the writer and publisher) to its modern day interpretation.

Someone must have at some point said, "Right everyone listen up, i decree that there is a god and there is a heaven and hell to which balance him (or something like that" Else how would they know these things??

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Well that may be true, but I think the people that use it that way do believe what they are saying.

Like I said some of these big companys need followers and they will do whatever it takes to get them. The more followers the more money, the more money the nicer the car, building, house etc... I relize not all churches are like this but there are still those few bad apples.

Besides, if you're sharing the Christian religion with someone I think you would be leaving out some important info if you didn't mention hell.

Ok, but why can't you have one without the other? Why make up a hatefull place, when God is suppose to be all loving?


Hmmm... I really have to disagree strongly with this. I've been going to Church every Sunday for many years and I don't remember once hearing a sermon about hell.

That is nice maybe you have a good church, but like I said check out what the TV stars are doing. I watched a show one day off and on and all he would talk about is how hell was taking over the earth and how everyone needed to follow his word or they would be burning forever. This went on for 3 hours.

It is mentioned but never is it a central theme to your average sermon. The love and forgiveness of God is a MUCH more common topic in my experience.

Well I think that is the way it should be, you seem to have a nice church.


I posted a few scriptures that mention hell in the Old Testament. Christ wasn't around until the New Testament.

I just read those sorry. I am much more interested in old religions

Jesus Christ is God, His words were written down in the New Testament, therefore the New Testament contains the Words of God. That's as simple as i can put it. Of course, before believing that, one must accept Christianity, and that seems to be the main rift between the two sides of the argument. I just wanted to clarify the reason why us Christians take the words of the New Testament so seriously.

StonewallCraig;

There is no proof that Jesus was anything more then just another man, that's if he even existed at all. There is no record of his life, when born, age, where did he live etc.... If Jesus was God{or the son of} then why didn't the folks of that time do a better job of recording who he was? The testaments are NOT the word of God they are the words of other humans. I relize folks go with the flow even when there may be a possibility that it is wrong? I'm not saying the worship of Christ is wrong but don't you want more proof of who you are worshipping? The belief in something is all well and good, but proof is much better.

If Jesus was God{or the son of} then why didn't the folks of that time do a better job of recording who he was?

They did quite a good job. The Gospels and the entire New Testament.

The belief in something is all well and good, but proof is much better.

I have all the proof for Jesus that i need. It's in my faith. I'm by no means a Biblical Scholar, but when i read the Bible, i feel that God is communicating to me. Now, you may say i'm crazy or delusional, and thats fine, but i believe what i believe because in my heart i know it's right.

The main difference between us is that i have faith to believe in something that can't be proven by human means. I know that some of you consider that stupid or ignorant, and therin lies the difference between us. Faith is what separates us.

Glad thats sorted, Thread closed ;)

Originally posted by StonewallCraig
They did quite a good job. The Gospels and the entire New Testament.

I have to disagree, they did a good job with telling stories of how people acted and how they should act. I think they did a terrible job of telling about Jesus himself. Other then his magic tricks and what help he gave to others what do we really know about this being? Who was/is he for real?

I have all the proof for Jesus that i need. It's in my faith. I'm by no means a Biblical Scholar, but when i read the Bible, i feel that God is communicating to me. Now, you may say i'm crazy or delusional, and thats fine, but i believe what i believe because in my heart i know it's right.

There is nothing wrong with that, but lets just say the Bible was never written who would you feel in your heart then? I don't think you are delusional or crazy. What would have happened if you never lived where you do, read the books you read, etc.... do you still feel you would have believed in a Jesus?

The main difference between us is that i have faith to believe in something that can't be proven by human means.

You may be surprised at what I think, the main difference is that I don't take a humans word for what I believe. I do believe in a higher power/force, spirits, etc... I don't mind reading what other humans have to say but when they preach that means they are speaking for God. Sorry I don't believe it would be this easy, the Bible may have good stories and even help some in a time of need, but it is not the word of God. The Bible is is too 1 tracked mind for being Gods word.

I know that some of you consider that stupid or ignorant, and therin lies the difference between us. Faith is what separates us.

You are not stupid or ignorant, and faith is not a seperater between us. What would seperate you and me is the fact that you take human words and training, where I try to except things as they are. I believe God would have a much bigger plan then just worrying about humans and their screw ups or petty fights. There is ALOT more to this world and life then what is written in a book by humans.

what do we really know about this being? Who was/is he for real?

Jesus: Son of God, born of the virgin Mary, born in Bethlehem, taken by Joseph and Mary to Egypt as a young child because Herod ordered the death of all children under 2, lived in Galilee, as a teenager preached the Word in temple, started His ministry around the age of 30, baptized by John the Baptist, gathered 12 Apostles to help Him preach His Word, healed lepers, blind, sick, and crippled; preached the Word all throughout Judea, entered triumphantly into Jerusalem and knew He was to die, given up to Jewish authorities by Judas Iscariot, tried under Pontious Pilot, the Jews called for His crucifiction, He was crucified and died for our sins on the cross. 3 days later, He rose and appeared to the Apostles.

That is a BRIEF summary of the works of Christ, but being raised Catholic you've probably heard that many times. Read the Gospels for any info you might want on Jesus.

but lets just say the Bible was never written

It was written. That fact is unchangeable. It was written for a reason.

Stone;

with the above you still have NOT told me anything about Jesus himself just stories of what he may or may not have done. When was he really born? how old was he when he died? what did he look like? what happened to his belongings? We have had generals, teachers, etc.. in history that we know more about then Christ, why? If Christ was real then why don't we know more about the man {not the stories of what he did}? I find it odd that so many followed this man and believed he was the son of, or God himself but they never told who he really was, or took care of any of his belongings, why?

Part 2 of your post lets say you live on a remote island and you never have contact with a Bible or any type of Christianity, how do you think things would have went?

I'm also going to start another thread about his sacrifice, I find this an interesting thought.

If Christ was real then why don't we know more about the man {not the stories of what he did}?

I feel that we know quite a bit about Jesus. There are 4 Gospels on his life. We know where he was born, where he preached, where he died, where he was buried. We know that he was crucified under Pontius Pilot. Why is it important how old he was? Do you honestly believe Christianity could've taken off the way it did if Christ had not walked this earth?

what happened to his belongings?

He had no belongings to speak of. He traveled Judea, preaching his Father's Word. If you read the Gospels you'll know how Christ lived. He lived, more or less, in poverty, congregating with the unwanted of society.

I find it odd that so many followed this man and believed he was the son of, or God himself but they never told who he really was

I guess i just dont understand what more you want to know about him. If you take into account the way he lived, its no wonder there's not loads of evidence for his existance.

Stone;

thanks for the input but does everyone agree with where he was buried, where he died etc... I think not, so we really don't no jack squat. Another question why did it take over 300+ years to start spreading his word. Constantine needed a new outlook to keep his power so he used Christ. Is it possible stories just grew to make things look spectacular and interesting? Lets not forget this was 2000 years ago, less population and WAY more imagination. Stories traveled faster and grew 10 times when told from one to another.

It didnt take 300 years to start spreading his word....his teachings were spread even during his lifetime...and the great commision started well before the 3 centuries you indicate.

show me where?

Have you ever heard of the deciples? The apostles? Paul?

His word was being spread during his lifetime, and after.

There was no devil because the devil was created by man... it's a perverted version of the Horned God worshipped by many pagans. Hence, there is no hell and no devil. Thank You.
I mean seriously, we live in a world where we know so much... to still believe in faerytales such as Santa Clause, and the devil seem so foolish to me.

Originally posted by mikeydafish
There was no devil because the devil was created by man... it's a perverted version of the Horned God worshipped by many pagans. Hence, there is no hell and no devil. Thank You.
I mean seriously, we live in a world where we know so much... to still believe in faerytales such as Santa Clause, and the devil seem so foolish to me.

Correction: We live in a world that tells us belief in such things is foolish.

And thats fine by me....the bible tells us to not be of this world.

Jerejerebinks;

If Constantine didn't decide to use Jesus as he did things would{more then likely} be alot different. Constantine starting using Christ in 320 something, way after his death. How famous would Christ be if indians were still incharge of this land? How famous would Christ be if the celtics weren't forced into Christianity? It is possible that the stories of Christ would have died out if it weren't for the struggle of power. You have to remember Religion back then was like money to us now. The more you have the more power you get. The better the story you have to make people believe{hopes dreams peace etc...} the more people you'll have to follow. Take Santa Clause{Saint Nick}, it is written that he was a real person and that he did give gifts to the poor. As the years have gone by we have stretched his generosity out, not only does he fly but he fly's using cute little rain deer and now instead of just giving to the locals he delivers to every boy and girl. Is it possible that Jesus was just a kind hearted person in a troubled time. people hung around him because he made them laugh and forget. As time goes by the stories grow bigger people want to believe in a miracle so they create one and believe.

In the begining there was god, god created man with only one commandment. Then we broke it, which because God is holy means we were seperated from God. If you have heard of them sacrificing animals to pay for sins, that was their way of giving something up to pay for their transgression against God. The Jews were always God's chosen people, and they were the ones who were given the 10 commandments to keep, but of course they couldn't. That's where Jesus comes in, him being gods son born of viginal birth as told of years before. He was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, thats why no one sacrifices animals today, it would be like slapping god in the face and telling him his perfect sacrifice wasn't good enough, and thats also why as long as you believe through Jesus our sins our hidden by him, and yes I know your question: but if people are truly saved they do not want to commit sins, but no matter what you ever do we will always commit sins and thats why we have Jesus. Do you know out of the big religions all the followers follow people who never claimed to be god, they said they were just prophets, Jesus not only claimed to be god, but after crucifiction was raised up from the dead to sit at the right hand of God, while he was in the flesh he also raised other people from the dead and cured many diseases and even gave blind men back their site and always gave glory to his father and this was seen by thousands, he let them take him away to be beat and killed for you and me. They were lots of religions around, most of them centering around groups of Gods who controlled things like the weather, stars, the oceans. Did you know the Prophets spoke of the arrival of Jesus 1,000 years before he was born and he fulfilled all the old testament prophecies to be called Gods son, our Lord. There are so many questions and I would love to answer any and all to atleast let you make a smart intelligent decsion, I would hate to see someone miss heaven because they just did not know.

contact me.

You can also visit: www.sinnerschurchofchrist.com

This site will be very helpful....

Originally posted by minister
while he was in the flesh he also raised other people from the dead and cured many diseases and even gave blind men back their site
I certainly would like to see evidence for these extraordinary claims.

look up all of it, it was witnessed by the masses......Do you expect God to keep sending a christ down to do miracles for every generation......once he presented himself wouldn't it be important enough for people to remember to tell other people and maybe write it down...they did its called the bible...

Originally posted by minister
look up all of it, it was witnessed by the masses......Do you expect God to keep sending a christ down to do miracles for every generation......once he presented himself wouldn't it be important enough for people to remember to tell other people and maybe write it down...they did its called the bible...
I don't believe the Bible any more than I believe any other fiction book in existence. It would behoove you to read up on the history of the Bible. First of all, it has been translated on and on many different times. Secondly, it has been used by numerous different rulers numerous times to control the masses. King James was the most egregious offender that I know of, as was Pope Urban II who used the Bible to start the Crusades.

how would you explain the writings by so many different authors but relaying the same message. People screw up the word and the faith, people are sinful and these are the things that happen....One day everyone who stands strong in their faith through Jesus Christ will be rewarded..I would ask you to study up on the bible and maybe some recent updates on evolution...

Originally posted by minister
how would you explain the writings by so many different authors but relaying the same message. People screw up the word and the faith, people are sinful and these are the things that happen....One day everyone who stands strong in their faith through Jesus Christ will be rewarded..I would ask you to study up on the bible and maybe some recent updates on evolution...
Au contraire, it is you who should look at the Bible more critically and read up on evolution.

I have done both my friend, I find evolution and all the proof there of to be lacking to say the least, with no basis in reality....You should study more up to date text books, why are so may scientists leaning towards intelligent design, slowly science catches up with the word of God.....I am very well versed in both,

Originally posted by minister
I have done both my friend, I find evolution and all the proof there of to be lacking to say the least, with no basis in reality....You should study more up to date text books, why are so may scientists leaning towards intelligent design, slowly science catches up with the word of God.....I am very well versed in both,
"Intelligent design" cannot be proven and is not a scientific theory. At best, it is a hypothesis, and no true scientist would give it much of his/her time. There's absolutely no evidence for it.

and evolution is a unproven theory for the origin of man....If you do more research you will find sciences that support intelligent design using scientific methods...

Originally posted by minister
and evolution is a unproven theory for the origin of man....If you do more research you will find sciences that support intelligent design using scientific methods...
the·o·ry
n. pl. the·o·ries

1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

They do test it and it comes up that it does not work....The only real evidence scientists talk of his fossils and all their work are based off of the amount of fossils to fill one small car, where is the fossil evidence, show me any, but don't show me ape bones and say look our anscestor, show me one of the in between evolution states has never been done, and will never be done. Nice natural explanation: some people believe we come from monkeys, it's no wonder our society is so bad off.....

Evolution---we make the rules, no one to answer to.

Creation--we are owned and will be judged and have someone to answer to....

It's nice to see you so convicted even if you haven't seen any reccet information to help in your debate...

Originally posted by minister
They do test it and it comes up that it does not work....The only real evidence scientists talk of his fossils and all their work are based off of the amount of fossils to fill one small car, where is the fossil evidence, show me any, but don't show me ape bones and say look our anscestor, show me one of the in between evolution states has never been done, and will never be done.
Ever heard of "punctuated equilibrium"? According to this theory, there are no "in-between states". I would suggest reading up on it. It makes a lot of sense.
Evolution---we make the rules, no one to answer to.

Creation--we are owned and will be judged and have someone to answer to....
Why do you think that evolution and religion are mutually exclusive? Plenty of Christians have come to the conclusion that evolution is likely true. God could have induced the evolutionary process himself.
It's nice to see you so convicted even if you haven't seen any reccet information to help in your debate...
Sorry, I'm not convicted, I haven't even been indicted yet. :D

Minister, if I gave you a book and told you that everything in it was true, you read it and it was full of magical things like people being brought back from the dead, magical cures for illness and oceans parting - would you believe it? What if in the book it explained that all these things happened because of a magical fairy that had these wonderfull powers. What if I started taking passages from said book to prove to you that the book was true and that the magical fairy actually exits. Would you believe it? What if I told you you had to believe in this magical fairy or you would spend eternity in torment? Would you believe it then? I doubt it.

That is exactly how intellegent, logical thinking people see the bible and the thumpers who believe in it. The illogicalness of the christian faith is overwhelming.

A suposedly kind and loving being who sends down disaters and war and famine and flood to the very people he claims to love. A being that threatenes you with everlasting damnation if you don't love him? A being that has the power to end all suffering but won't do it?

I have posted this before but here it is again...

I have never been able to wrap my mind around the idea of an all powerful being with an agenda. If an entity is all powerful, why does it have a need to be worshipped?

2nd Commandment; Verses 4-6: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

The second part of this is what really throws me. Can anyone explain this insanity?

I have a dog, the dog doesn’t do what I want so instead of killing it (too quick) or beating it to within an inch of its life (to easy) or taking it to behavior classes (not enough sport?) I decide that I am going to breed it and torture its puppies for generations to come. Letting them die of starvation and disease.

To create something with free will, insist it worship you, and then punish it for not doing so is pure insanity.

To create a being with intelligence and logic and then insist it believe in you on “faith” alone is insanity.

To create a being with intelligence and logic and then leave ancient books with hundreds of contradictory passages and hundreds of dubious analogies for that being to try and decipher is cruel.

To allow for thousands of years, children and adults to die over squabbles of whether it exists is heartless, cruel and cold blooded.

If this entity exists, it is not loving or good and certainly doesn’t deserve to be worshiped. It should be hated and feared. Maybe Satan has pulled off a huge practical joke on all these people who think they are worshipping an entity that is good and loving.

I see nothing good and loving about this creature. I keep hearing about it being good and loving but have yet to witness any evidence that it gives a rats ass about human beings.

I'm sorry for your bad experiences through life, because you must have a reason for this type of thinking. Bad things happen in a way to lead you back to god. If you have a kid, and he does wrong, do you punish him. God is Holy and nothing that in not Holy can be in his presence ( then he sends us Jesus, because he loves us). How easy to get to heaven, believe in Jesus and your in, that's all God has said, but still many don't listen. These "stories" of the bible were told and written by people moved by the spirit of god. All the books of the Bible fit together great. These books of the bible were placed together in one by man but were written so far apart. The Old testament God gave commandments and many chances for his children to straighten up but they said no. New Testament he sends a piece of him to be with men to teach and serve and then die for us, just as they sacrificed in the old testament, Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice in the New Testament. These people who for years before jesus was born wrote of his coming, many different authors. Then while Jesus was on earth, some of the Gospels were written as they witnessed things happening. They wrote of his resurrection as they saw it happen and they spoke with him. All I say is open your mind and you will see the truth. There can be only one truth, do you want to believe man or God's word.

All I say is open your mind. You have taken a superstition and wrapped your entire life around it. I pity peole who need to cling to superstiion to feel worthwhile. But mostly I pity their children who will be threatened with fear of damnation and hells fire if they don't believe. Such an angry and vengfull religion should not be taught to children.

to say it is angry is funny, obviously you know little about it. The whole faith is based in love of one another. My children love it, and they love their god.

I think the point is that you wont even open your mind to anything else, i remember somewhere else you saying that if god came down to earth and did something magical that would have us believe, we wouldnt.

I feel in the same vein no matter how much abundant truth is thrown at you, you were ignore all of it, because the idea that you might actually have to live your own life without the comfort blanket of God is too frightening. Like a young child suddenly robbed of his mother and father, it would be a terrifying expereince for you.

I challenge you to actually listen to what these guys are saying and really think on it, rather than just coming back with the same "God exists and Jesus died to save us" speech.

You can believe me when I say I hear everything that is being said. I have researched all of it, starting with Darwin and Evolution. There are many sciences to consider and I have, I have also researched other religions and the bible. I do hear what these people say.....