If you had ten thieves living on an island they would all starve to death waiting to steal from each other. SOMEONE (probably most of the ten) would have to work so the others could have something to steal.

Conversely, if ten hardworking people lived on that island they would get along fine and live well.

Therefore, stealing is wrong because it doesn't allow society to function properly. It's scientifically wrong.

Strangely enough, all the moral/legal rights and wrongs correspond to scientific/mathematical right and wrong. Single parents have a higher chance that their kids won't succeed, bad employees turn away business and waste profits, even jay walking can get you run over.

As far as Heaven and Hell:

Heaven is the feeling of oneness with the Universe, Hell is feeling of separation. God doesn't send you to Hell, you go on your own. You step out of the light. While you are alive you can always return to God. As long as you are at peace when you die you will be at peace forever. If you are filled with hate or fear when you die you will forever be in "Hell".

(Eternity is but a moment and one moment can be eternity. Your "eternity" is based on how you feel in your last moment of life.)

so this means i should be thinking happy thoughts if i am getting murdered?

Originally posted by creetwins
so this means i should be thinking happy thoughts if i am getting murdered?

This is EXACTLY what this means. This is the very essence of faith. Jesus/Buddah/Mohamed/Bhodidharma/Hanuman the Monkey King pleaded with his followers to believe because belief itself is what saves you from "eternal damnation".

The Vietnamese monks who set themselves on fire during the Vietnam War had mastered this principle. This is a very difficult thing to do, no doubt, (I have in no way begun to truly grasp the meaning of these words) but the simple truth is that utter belief will protect you from what you fear. Fear itself will produce negative outcomes.

I agree with some of the things you said Ed...but youre eternity is not the last moment of youre life.

The bible says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.

The Bible is talking about real things. Try to think a little more abstractly. The language of the Bible has be re-interpreted several times. The true meaning of what was originally meant is shrouded in symbolism.

I am not simply defining the last moment of life as eternity. I mean it will literally be your eternity. If you are afraid at that moment, you will be forever afraid.

Our view of 'time" is limited because of our perspective. Just like East meets West on the globe. Infinity actually meets Zero soewhere in a higher spatial dimension.

Ed, you are/were a philosophy major, are/weren't you? ;)

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Ed, you are/were a philosophy major, are/weren't you? ;)

I was a Sociology major (I graduated in 1998). I took a fair amount of Philosophy classes and a fair amount of drugs, both of which helped pierce the veil.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
The Bible is talking about real things. Try to think a little more abstractly. The language of the Bible has be re-interpreted several times. The true meaning of what was originally meant is shrouded in symbolism.

I know the Bible is talking about real things....how do you see any other meaning in to be absent form the body is to be present with the lord?

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I am not simply defining the last moment of life as eternity. I mean it will literally be your eternity. If you are afraid at that moment, you will be forever afraid.

What reasoning do you have for this? If I am a Christian....and a train is coming at me...I will be scared....but when I die, I will go to a place of complete paradise, where there is no such thing as fear.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
Our view of 'time" is limited because of our perspective. Just like East meets West on the globe. Infinity actually meets Zero soewhere in a higher spatial dimension.


Your knowledge of space and time is only of this world. Heaven needs no such limits.

I am a Born-Again Chrisitan, too, but I am also a Scientest.

I try to contemplate what the poetic language of religion means literally.

For instance: why would you be scared if you are sure you are going to "Heaven". You should be running into burning buildings to save house-pets. If you die saving a goldfish, you go to Heaven right then and you don't have to put up with all the sinners anymore.

If you are afraid of death then you are not sure.

No Bible verses necesary, just straight logic.

I agree with that post. But we are still human, and humans feel pain. A normal human fears pain.

As far as going into a burning builidng to save something, given the opportunity, I probably would.

But that wouldnt mean I wouldnt be scared that burning to death wouldnt be painful....and if, sadly that happened...well just because I was scared of the pain wouldnt mean I would be living in an eternal fear.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I am a Born-Again Chrisitan, too, but I am also a Scientest.

I try to contemplate what the poetic language of religion means literally.

For instance: why would you be scared if you are sure you are going to "Heaven". You should be running into burning buildings to save house-pets. If you die saving a goldfish, you go to Heaven right then and you don't have to put up with all the sinners anymore.

If you are afraid of death then you are not sure.

No Bible verses necesary, just straight logic. Ed, I personally wouldnt be scared of dying while trying to do anything for someone. In fact, fear of death is only a wasted emotion regardless of whether there is a heaven or hell. We are all going to die, so why waste time and energy fearing it?

However, what i do fear as I am going into that burning building is being horribly burned and living through it only to become a burden on those I love. Or living an existence where only suffering is experienced. Death would be a release, in that instance, heaven or no.

Originally posted by Ed Blank


Strangely enough, all the moral/legal rights and wrongs correspond to scientific/mathematical right and wrong. Single parents have a higher chance that their kids won't succeed, bad employees turn away business and waste profits, even jay walking can get you run over.

I disagree. First, where did you get that single parents are immoral ? And jay walking ?
Second, in many cases, immoral behaviour can lead to success - so would it mean it has becomen moral ?

Morals and law have things in common but are not the same. Some legal decisions are immoral. Some immoral behaviours are not illegal.
And sometimes it's moral to disobey the law (Gandhi is a good example)

To base morals on this kind of reasoning is in fact denying the existence of morals. It would mean morals are just designed to make things work. But they are not. Sometimes the right thing to do is not the most efficient one.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
If you had ten thieves living on an island they would all starve to death waiting to steal from each other. SOMEONE (probably most of the ten) would have to work so the others could have something to steal.

I disagree, maybe the thieves would learn to survive after all human instinct is survival not stealing. Would ten killers kill each other? we could only hope.........:eek:

Conversely, if ten hardworking people lived on that island they would get along fine and live well.

maybe these 10 hard workers would change, maybe one would feel the others weren't working as hard as he/she is?

Therefore, stealing is wrong because it doesn't allow society to function properly. It's scientifically wrong.

stealing is wrong because you are taking from another causing harm. Now what if Joe rich boy is screwing the system with tax breaks does that make him better? There is all sorts of stealing going on right now that is legal

Strangely enough, all the moral/legal rights and wrongs correspond to scientific/mathematical right and wrong. Single parents have a higher chance that their kids won't succeed, bad employees turn away business and waste profits, even jay walking can get you run over.

jay walking can also save your life if there is a turn of events. single parents can have wonderfull children just has married abusive parents can have screwed up kids.

As far as Heaven and Hell:

they are one in the same, I have heard folks say earth is hell and they can't wait to get to heaven. While at the same time I have heard others say they wish they could live forever because to them earth is heaven.

Heaven is the feeling of oneness with the Universe, Hell is feeling of separation.

without one how would you no what the other is?

God doesn't send you to Hell, you go on your own. You step out of the light.

you speak as though you have met this God you seem to speak like you are a personal guide for him/her/it.

While you are alive you can always return to God. As long as you are at peace when you die you will be at peace forever.

So Joe Bob the rapist is killing you and while you are dying you get a lucky shot in and kill Joe Bob. For a secound you were filled with enough hate to take a life, would this be the deciding second for heaven or hell? because in that same second you were filled with hate you also died.

If you are filled with hate or fear when you die you will forever be in "Hell".

I always find this very funny there is no hell I also have to ask if you believe in a God that is all love and knowledge then why would he/she/it make you suffer? Even in your own hell?

(Eternity is but a moment and one moment can be eternity. Your "eternity" is based on how you feel in your last moment of life.) [

I somewhat understand what you are saying everything comes down to time. But don't christians believe in heaven, forgiveness etc...???

Originally posted by Ed Blank


Single parents have a higher chance that their kids won't succeed, bad employees turn away business and waste profits, even jay walking can get you run over.



I like a lot of your view Ed, However I am concerned about your statement about Single parents. I know you state that they have a "higher chance" they wont succeed, but I left my sons father so we could succeed. My son is doing much better now, he has goals ambitions and he loves himself. If I was to stay in a two parent family we would have been brought down even farther by his father, as it is we are struggling but we are happy and peacefull.

The good thing is....no one will ever have a true single parent...because their true father...will be there for them forever. And it's the lack of a relationship with that parent...that will do you in.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The good thing is....no one will ever have a true single parent...because their true father...will be there for them forever. And it's the lack of a relationship with that parent...that will do you in. Why do you feel the need to preach to people Jere? I mean, you seem like a really nice guy and I understand that you honestly fear for others mortal souls, but dont you think there comes a point where you just have to let it go?

Im a christian, and I dont like people preaching to me. Talking to me is one thing, but not at me.

I personaly think that preaching to someone about the bible that does not want to listen is futile. I'm not sure where I stand on the whole "God" issue. I'm not an Atheist, and my curiosity is aroused on the issue. I have blindly followed religion in my youth and find it hard to simply remove those inbreed ideas that the church has installed in me. On the other hand It is in my nature to be curious and my imagination does often run quite rampamt, but I believe that anything can be possible we just as of yet, have not created it.

Originally posted by creetwins
so this means i should be thinking happy thoughts if i am getting murdered?

Cree, if you have put your trust in Christ and accpeted Him as Lord and saviour, all your sins are forgiven. You don't need to have any fear of death. God never gave us a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind. All dying in this world would be is passing from this life into eternal life in Heaven whcih is a place of perfect paradise.

There has been many martyrs who died for the gospel. They refused to renounce Christ in countries where christianity is illegal. There were many mratyrs in the early church days as well. Out of the apostles in the bible, only John didn't die a martyr's death. These people who died that way, dies peacefully because they knew they'd be with the Lord in heaven after they died.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Why do you feel the need to preach to people Jere? I mean, you seem like a really nice guy and I understand that you honestly fear for others mortal souls, but dont you think there comes a point where you just have to let it go?

Im a christian, and I dont like people preaching to me. Talking to me is one thing, but not at me.

Havok,

What it is about that post that you think is being preachy?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Havok,

What it is about that post that you think is being preachy?
Uh, the whole post?

The good thing is....no one will ever have a true single parent...because their true father...will be there for them forever. And it's the lack of a relationship with that parent...that will do you in.

And some children need to be protected from that parent.

I am a true single parent. The only contact I have with the girls father is through a lawyer. This is because I am a responsible parent with their best interest in mind. I am their sole caregiver in every sense of the word. I am not daunted by this task, nor do I doubt their potential success. Sometimes a relationship with some types of parents will also do you in.

Their true father is not there for them, nor is he capable.

We are all doing much better now.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Uh, the whole post?

Borg, that is quite simply ridiculous. My post made a very legitimate point. God is our heavenly father. We were discussing children not having a parent...and I reminded that we will always have God, our father.

Tell me, how is that being preachy. And "Uh...it just is.", is just a waisted post.

Originally posted by creetwins
And some children need to be protected from that parent.

I am a true single parent. The only contact I have with the girls father is through a lawyer. This is because I am a responsible parent with their best interest in mind. I am their sole caregiver in every sense of the word. I am not daunted by this task, nor do I doubt their potential success. Sometimes a relationship with some types of parents will also do you in.

Their true father is not there for them, nor is he capable.

We are all doing much better now. Some people may need protection from an earthly parent, but not from there heavenly father.

God will always be there for each of us. Rather we hide from him or not.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Borg, that is quite simply ridiculous. My post made a very legitimate point. God is our heavenly father. We were discussing children not having a parent...and I reminded that we will always have God, our father.

Tell me, how is that being preachy. [sic] And "Uh...it just is.", is just a waisted [sic] post.
Look, bringing religion in that fashion into a discussion about single parenting is preachy, whether you like it or not. There are times when you simply should leave religion out of the discussion, and this is one of those. I mean, I understand that you're a Christian and all that, but you do not need to flaunt that all the time by randomly inserting religious statements into non-religious conversations.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Look, bringing religion in that fashion into a discussion about single parenting is preachy, whether you like it or not. There are times when you simply should leave religion out of the discussion, and this is one of those. I mean, I understand that you're a Christian and all that, but you do not need to flaunt that all the time by randomly inserting religious statements into non-religious conversations.

Pardon me....I could have sworn this was a "religion" forum.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Look, bringing religion in that fashion into a discussion about single parenting is preachy, whether you like it or not. There are times when you simply should leave religion out of the discussion, and this is one of those. I mean, I understand that you're a Christian and all that, but you do not need to flaunt that all the time by randomly inserting religious statements into non-religious conversations.

Borg, considering that this forum is the religion forum, wouldn't you agree that this is the appropraite place to discuss things about the Lord? If someone chooses to get into discussions in the "religion" forum, they should expect to hear about God.

Jere, you can preach to me anytime, pal.:cool:

Okay, this is a Religion forum. Is the thread entitled "God is great"? No? Okay, good, let's stay on topic, then.

And in any case, there is a difference between discussion and proselytizing. Jere was doing the latter. Discussion is what we're here for; having religion blindly spewed at people is NOT what we're here for. I'd feel the same way if an atheist came on here and posted something giving people detailed reasons why they should become atheists. I don't like people telling other people what religion to be. It's none of their business. Has anyone here NOT noticed how much I despise Freethinker?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Okay, this is a Religion forum. Is the thread entitled "God is great"? No? Okay, good, let's stay on topic, then.

This thread had to do with your feelings at death being your afterlife....then it got into his views on other rights and wrongs...where he mentioned the fact that single parented childs have a lower chance of succes..

My comment was not only appropriate at the time, but the fact that it has been given so much scruitiny with other things a heck of a lot worse are going on, on this website-is a shame.


And in any case, there is a difference between discussion and proselytizing. Jere was doing the latter. Discussion is what we're here for; having religion blindly spewed at people is NOT what we're here for. I'd feel the same way if an atheist came on here and posted something giving people detailed reasons why they should become atheists. I don't like people telling other people what religion to be. It's none of their business. Has anyone here NOT noticed how much I despise Freethinker?


Where in my post was I proselytizing? Where I was telling anyone how they should live?

I'm not about to tell someone they shouldnt get Jesus into their heart...but in my post, all I said was that God is our father, which means we never be parentless.

If you think that, that is proselytizing, than your sadly mistaken.


And as far as staying on topic...if you think this wasnt a religious based conversation, why havent I seen you move it somewhere else?

jere you know what?

maybe in that particular post you weren't exactly proselytizing, but your statement about some kids not being fatherless, cause he is always with them? I found that a presumptuous statement, and I took it literally. Now looking back and realizing it was you taking another opportunity for one of your "yay God! High Five!" injections, it still bothers me.

to me you are saying , that I am not a single parent, cause my kids have a heavenly father? So what are he and I dating? Is he here to help me out, pay the bills, and contribute in any way? God or not, i look around and yup, still single still doing it myself.
There are no real single parents? To me that is just a stupid statement. We work twice as hard to give our children a balanced enriching environment, and giving god the credit is just retarded.

Originally posted by creetwins
jere you know what?

maybe in that particular post you weren't exactly proselytizing, but your statement about some kids not being fatherless, cause he is always with them? I found that a presumptuous statement, and I took it literally. Now looking back and realizing it was you taking another opportunity for one of your "yay God! High Five!" injections, it still bothers me.

I meant it to be literal...so I'm glad you took it as such. It shouldn't bother you though.


Originally posted by creetwins
to me you are saying , that I am not a single parent, cause my kids have a heavenly father? So what are he and I dating? Is he here to help me out, pay the bills, and contribute in any way? God or not, i look around and yup, still single still doing it myself.

Actually...yeah, he IS there to help you out. He IS there to contribute in any way. You only fail to want to see it and accept it.

Originally posted by creetwins
There are no real single parents? To me that is just a stupid statement. We work twice as hard to give our children a balanced enriching environment, and giving god the credit is just retarded.

No one is saying that a parent raising a child without a spouse or another parent has to work hard. They do. However, they always have God to help at any time.

You are not alone. You should take comfront in that. Not reject it. To me, not wanting the help, is just retarded.

You are not alone. You should take comfront in that. Not reject it. To me, not wanting the help, is just retarded.

I don't have a problem asking for, and getting help when I need it.........from PEOPLE. I am am grateful when they can lend a hand. I think you take god a little more literally than I do. Honestly, if i sat around and waited for god to do anything then nothing around here would get done.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Okay, this is a Religion forum. Is the thread entitled "God is great"? No? Okay, good, let's stay on topic, then......I don't like people telling other people what religion to be. It's none of their business. Has anyone here NOT noticed how much I despise Freethinker?

That's odd.

I'm quite fond of you.

I do think though that you're going a bit overboard with this --"hey, no talking about religionhere" thing.

You claim that this is a thread to discuss single parenting,......but if you will re-read the first post [and the name of the thread istself] you will see that it is about whether or not man's legal/moral concepts of right-and-wrong are aligned with the "scientific/mathematical" concepts of right-and-wrong.

(Whatever ""scientifical/mathematical right and wrong" means...?!?!?)

The first post also clearly tries to see religion's place in all of it. Hence, i fail to understand the objection to talk of religion.

BTW, Borghunter, while i DO see your point about proselytyzing, I cannot remember having ever tried to browbeat anyone into becoming an atheist.

Originally posted by creetwins
I don't have a problem asking for, and getting help when I need it.........from PEOPLE. I am am grateful when they can lend a hand. I think you take god a little more literally than I do. Honestly, if i sat around and waited for god to do anything then nothing around here would get done.

I never said to sit around and just wait on God to do everything for you.

In fact, God's word tells us, God helps those who help themselves.

All Im saying is, that you will never be alone. God will lend you a helping hand.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


The bible says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.
--------------------------

Jere, where is this located in the Bible, I would like to read the entire consept.


Ed Blank, as I have spoken of in other posts I believe that the frame of mind you develope when on earth will effect the mental environment we build for ourselves after death.

Originally posted by Freethinker
BTW, Borghunter, while i DO see your point about proselytyzing, I cannot remember having ever tried to browbeat anyone into becoming an atheist.
It's more your holier-than-thou attitude than anything else that irks me. It's certainly alright to be an atheist, but you don't have to be a jackass about it. In fact, you often make very good points, but they are so shrouded in your hatred for those who are religious that those points are sometimes simply drowned out by your emotions.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
--------------------------

Jere, where is this located in the Bible, I would like to read the entire consept.

2 Corinthians 5 :8

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
[The good thing is....no one will ever have a true single parent...because their true father...will be there for them forever. And it's the lack of a relationship with that parent...that will do you in.

I have to ask.........what if the single parent is the father? From what you are saying God is man??? So if a single father is the parent then I quess he'ld be screwed? :eek:

I would also like to tell you something else. I am my kids ONLY TRUE FATHER God did not plant his seed in my wife, I did. Infact I don't even remember seeing God hanging around at the wedding.

Oh and NO I am not atheist, nor am I a bible thumper.

mad dog, I don't see why this is a hard concept for you to grasp. God is considered the father of all mankind because he CREATED mankind. Really a simple idea.

I am a child of a single parent.

Even if you are a single parent who's child is going to Harvard at age six, there are MILLIONS of children of single parents that will never enter a college classroom even to sweep it.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
]mad dog, I don't see why this is a hard concept for you to grasp. God is considered the father of all mankind because he CREATED mankind. Really a simple idea.

Thats is all fine and dandy, but it does not make God my parent? Lets say you dig a pond, 5 years go by and all types of critters live and are born there, does this make you their father? NO, this makes you the one that created. Why does God have to be a baby sitter? God gave us a chance, and the intelligence to go along with it. The only true father anyone has is the one that dropped the seed. We may all have{believe} a creator {1 or many} but this does not make them our individual father.

What makes you so sure God created man in the 1st place, what about evolution?

Originally posted by Ed Blank
I am a child of a single parent.

Even if you are a single parent who's child is going to Harvard at age six, there are MILLIONS of children of single parents that will never enter a college classroom even to sweep it.

Got a reality check for you, There are millions of kids that have both parents that will never enter a college class room either. So what is your real point here?

Originally posted by mad dog
Thats is all fine and dandy, but it does not make God my parent? Lets say you dig a pond, 5 years go by and all types of critters live and are born there, does this make you their father? NO, this makes you the one that created. Why does God have to be a baby sitter? God gave us a chance, and the intelligence to go along with it. The only true father anyone has is the one that dropped the seed. We may all have{believe} a creator {1 or many} but this does not make them our individual father.


Now you're getting into the philosophical realm of "what is a father?" I'm just telling you why Christians call God the Father.

Originally posted by mad dog
Got a reality check for you, There are millions of kids that have both parents that will never enter a college class room either. So what is your real point here?

You don't have shit for me.

What is your real point? You are just disagreeable.

What I am talking about is not antecdotal evidence it's Social Science. Read a book.

Originally posted by Ed Blank
]You don't have shit for me.

nope.... just alittle bit of reality, sorry to get your panty's in a wad.

What is your real point? You are just disagreeable.

I am not disagreeable I am just pointing out that sh** happens no matter which side of the fence your sitting on. You seem to be crying the blues for just a certain area of your personal life. Well I got news for you there are over 6 billion in this world and they all have a sad story.

What I am talking about is not antecdotal evidence it's Social Science. Read a book. [

No, what you are doing is playing the "feel sorry for me card". Sh** happens to all sorts of people from all walks of life, how the individual deals with there fork in the road is their problem not mom, not dad, not the churches, not even their pet frog Fred.

Why would I read a book when I have you to tell me all the truths in the world?

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Now you're getting into the philosophical realm of "what is a father?" I'm just telling you why Christians call God the Father.

That is fare enough, I was just making a point that just because a christian believes this, does not mean it is true for all. This is the religion section not just the christian section. I find religion interesting and actually fun to talk about, what I don't care for is preaching(you did not do this). The origional comment that was made was more of a preaching. I was raised Catholic so I do have an idea of what is taught. I have also moved away from the teachings of MAN, and started relizing what God really may be. I will not tell you your way or anyones is wrong, but when one preaches they should atleast try to back up their ideas with more then "well that's just the way it is". I know you have the bible, churches, etc... but all this proves is that someone before you wrote a good book.

Originally posted by mad dog
nope.... just alittle bit of reality, sorry to get your panty's in a wad.



I am not disagreeable I am just pointing out that sh** happens no matter which side of the fence your sitting on. You seem to be crying the blues for just a certain area of your personal life. Well I got news for you there are over 6 billion in this world and they all have a sad story.



No, what you are doing is playing the "feel sorry for me card". Sh** happens to all sorts of people from all walks of life, how the individual deals with there fork in the road is their problem not mom, not dad, not the churches, not even their pet frog Fred.

Why would I read a book when I have you to tell me all the truths in the world?

Seriously, you aren't paying attention to the thread:

I said that children of single parents are less likely to succeed.

People started accusing me of having something against single parents.

I mentioned that I am a child of a single parent.

(Nobody needs to feel sorry for me, I have a job and a wife and a house on two lots. I am not speaking for myself when I argue for social inequality.

You truly have your head in the sand if you think that every single person could be middle class if they just wanted to. There aren't enough white collar jobs and suburbs for everyone.)

Originally posted by Ed Blank
Seriously, you aren't paying attention to the thread:

I said that children of single parents are less likely to succeed.

stereotype, this is like saying blacks will be great in sports or that white country boys like to breed sheep. In away I understand what you are saying, but it is not a truth. People from all sides of the building can succeed. If one single parent{poor} can have a child that goes on to become a prez. of a company then why can't another?

People started accusing me of having something against single parents.

I didn't, I was just trying to see what your point was.

I mentioned that I am a child of a single parent.

this is why I said you are only looking at it from one area. Just as we say there is more black hate crimes does not mean that it has to be this way. The real truth is life is what you make of it and how you overcome your problems.

(Nobody needs to feel sorry for me, I have a job and a wife and a house on two lots. I am not speaking for myself when I argue for social inequality.

I am sorry but it seemed like you were, my bad.

You truly have your head in the sand if you think that every single person could be middle class if they just wanted to.

I never said just wanted to, I said they have to work at it and turn their life in a direction they wish to travel. If someone is eating sh** out of a garbage can, then maybe they need to find a better way to go, or they could just sit still and keep going the way they are.

There aren't enough white collar jobs and suburbs for everyone.)

You are correct, but now we are going onto a different topic, Jobs, how many,and who is going to get them. This is not the 40's-50's there are alot more ways for folks to better themselfs. The problem is some don't want to.

I will not tell you your way or anyones is wrong, but when one preaches they should atleast try to back up their ideas with more then "well that's just the way it is". I know you have the bible, churches, etc... but all this proves is that someone before you wrote a good book.

I understand what you're saying, but let me ask you this. Suppose you ask a Christian why they consider homosexuality a sin (or any other thing). What answer could they possibly give besides "that's what the Bible says." If you believe that the Bible is God's holy word, then it saying somethig is a sin is the ONLY reason you would need to believe that. Now someone like you, on the other hand, who doesn't believe the Bible would need something more than that.

Originally posted by mad dog
Thats is all fine and dandy, but it does not make God my parent? Lets say you dig a pond, 5 years go by and all types of critters live and are born there, does this make you their father? NO, this makes you the one that created.

You didnt create anything but a habitat. You didnt give any of the animals life.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
I understand what you're saying, but let me ask you this. Suppose you ask a Christian why they consider homosexuality a sin (or any other thing). What answer could they possibly give besides "that's what the Bible says."

Well lets say this is 1950 and your whole family hated Asians, should you look for the answer as to why, or just say well that is what is written? Sorry to sound mean, but sometimes we should find out why, not just shove things to the side and say well that's just the way it was. As far as the gay thing goes I don't believe in it either (I'm not against or for harming gays). Being gay is against nature for the simple fact that it takes man and woman to keep the species alive. BUT, what one human does with their personal existance is their business as long as they are not causing harm to another. So why would being gay be a sin? why would someone have to be shamed for something when they have not hurt another?

If you believe that the Bible is God's holy word, then it saying somethig is a sin is the ONLY reason you would need to believe that.

Why is the Bible Gods word, it was written by humans? I believe when ever humans get invovled with something it should be questioned, not just blindly followed.

Now someone like you, on the other hand, who doesn't believe the Bible would need something more than that.

I believe what I see, hear, feel, etc... just because Father Paul said, "whoopy whoopy whoopy" about God, does not make him right. Father Paul or any other Human does not know any more about God then you or I. A book that was written 2000 years ago by humans has no more truth then me or anyone else writting a book today. I feel that we can learn about God from each other and yes even parts of the Bible, but we should still question.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
[You didnt create anything but a habitat. You didnt give any of the animals life. ]

This is exactly what God did, the only thing seperate from my pond and his planet is the form of life. I did create (with the help of my wife) life, my children. I am not God so I could only create something small compared to Gods scale. My parents created life just as theirs before them. God started the ball rolling but we can take credit for or individual paths. God is not a baby sitter and may not even give a hoot about what we do. He gave us a chance how we handle that is up to us, were we go after we pass from this life is anyones quess.

Well lets say this is 1950 and your whole family hated Asians, should you look for the answer as to why, or just say well that is what is written? Sorry to sound mean, but sometimes we should find out why, not just shove things to the side and say well that's just the way it was.
We don't believe these things are true "just because they are written." We believe they are true because GOD says they are. I think your problem is really with our reasons for believing in God. Loot at it this way. If you thought that the Bible was God's perfect unflawed word, would you doubt what it said? I doubt it.

Why is the Bible Gods word, it was written by humans?
It is God's word because he essentially wrote it. We believe that men were just acting as scribes and that God guided the whole process.

I believe when ever humans get invovled with something it should be questioned, not just blindly followed.
So I ask again: If you thought the Bible was God's holy, perfect, unflawed, uncorrupted word, would you still doubt what it said?

just because Father Paul said, "whoopy whoopy whoopy" about God, does not make him right.

Why do you folks have this idea that Christians believe what we do "just because someone said it was true." If that was the case then wouldn't we believe EVERYTHING anyone ever said?

Also, one other thought. You non-religious folk seem to always point out that we should "question" these things and not "follow blindly." You say this as if you are assuming that Christians typically never think/thought critically about what they believe and critical thought never played a role in developing these beliefs. Why is this? It seems like you think that only NON-believers could ever think critically about these issues. It also seems like you think that as soon as anyone who does think critically about it comes to the conclusion that the Bible is true, they have then begun to "follow blindly." This all seems very strange to me.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Also, one other thought. You non-religious folk seem to always point out that we should "question" these things and not "follow blindly." You say this as if you are assuming that Christians typically never think/thought critically about what they believe and critical thought never played a role in developing these beliefs. Why is this? It seems like you think that only NON-believers could ever think critically about these issues. It also seems like you think that as soon as anyone who does think critically about it comes to the conclusion that the Bible is true, they have then begun to "follow blindly." This all seems very strange to me.
I, for one, fully understand that many Christians get to their religion through introspection and thought rather than brainwashing and sheep behavior. It's the ones that do, however, follow blindly that irk me. Not to name any names or anything...::coughJerecough::

Originally posted by DaveTooner
It is God's word because he essentially wrote it. We believe that men were just acting as scribes and that God guided the whole process.

Of course it's not, and it's not supposed to be. Any christian specialist in the Bible would tell you so.

The Bible is made from many parts, first from oral tradition, and then written down in various languages at various times. The only part that is supposed to be directly told by God (for those who believe in Him) is the 10 commandments.
Even the gospels are four different and sometimes contradictory versions of Jesus' life, written by four human disciples of the Christ.

That is very different from the Koran, which muslims belive has been dictated to Mahomet directly by God. But there is no such belief in the Bible, for christian, jewish or muslims.

I don't mean to criticize the Bible : it is a great book, where believers as well as non believers can find a lot of wisdom to inspire their life. But don't take it literally - it's much richer and deeper this way.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
We don't believe these things are true "just because they are written." We believe they are true because GOD says they are.

I have to ask where, did God sign something and I missed it? If you can prove to me were God said something then please share, then we could stop all of the questions?

I think your problem is really with our reasons for believing in God.

This is what I am trying to learn, is another source for your beliefs other then a book written by man? I believe in God because of what I see not what someone preaches or writes.

Loot at it this way. If you thought that the Bible was God's perfect unflawed word, would you doubt what it said? I doubt it.

No I would not doubt something IF it could be proven.




It is God's word because he essentially wrote it. We believe that men were just acting as scribes and that God guided the whole process.

Once again where is God's signature? If God did do this then why didn't he do it himself instead of going through FLAWED humans? Look how many wars, pain, and questioning, could have been (or be ) stopped if God would show up.


So I ask again: If you thought the Bible was God's holy, perfect, unflawed, uncorrupted word, would you still doubt what it said?

Once again who's intepretation and most of all PROOF?



Why do you folks have this idea that Christians believe what we do "just because someone said it was true." If that was the case then wouldn't we believe EVERYTHING anyone ever said?

This is exactly what I am trying to find out, what makes you believe the way you do besides others? 80%+ religion in America is Christian so of course it makes sense to go with the flow because in most cases that is what humans do. This does not explain personal choices, I am just interested in why folks choose the path they do? In MOST cases people practice the majority, mom and dad, friends, neighbors, other family memebers, etc... They follow a religion because that is what they have been taught. I am not trying to put down Christians or anyone else just trying to find out why some people choose thier religion.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Also, one other thought. You non-religious folk seem to always point out that we should "question" these things and not "follow blindly."

1st I don't know if this was thrown my way or not, but I am NOT non-religious. Why would you not want to question? Lets face it{maybe not you or anyone else on this board} alot of Christians do follow without any type of questioning.

You say this as if you are assuming that Christians typically never think/thought critically about what they believe and critical thought never played a role in developing these beliefs. Why is this?

Because alot of times when a question is asked it is answered with "you just have to have faith, or thats just the way it is". I do agree not all do this, but alot do.

It seems like you think that only NON-believers could ever think critically about these issues.

I disagree otherwise I wouldn't waste my time asking. I've also met non-believers that are so hard headed they never think out of their relm.

It also seems like you think that as soon as anyone who does think critically about it comes to the conclusion that the Bible is true, they have then begun to "follow blindly." This all seems very strange to me.

Lets face it some of the Bible is just good stories. So if one thing can be just a story then what makes others true?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
I, for one, fully understand that many Christians get to their religion through introspection and thought rather than brainwashing and sheep behavior. It's the ones that do, however, follow blindly that irk me. Not to name any names or anything...::coughJerecough::

Borg, I find this interesting, out of 100%{Christian, or the religion of your area}how many do you think really think things through. I would say it would be 30/70 or maybe 40/60. I would say most people go with what the norm is just because it is easier and because there are others like them. Kind of like fitting into a club, no one wants to be the odd ball out.

Originally posted by mad dog
This is exactly what God did, the only thing seperate from my pond and his planet is the form of life. I did create (with the help of my wife) life, my children. I am not God so I could only create something small compared to Gods scale. My parents created life just as theirs before them. God started the ball rolling but we can take credit for or individual paths. God is not a baby sitter and may not even give a hoot about what we do. He gave us a chance how we handle that is up to us, were we go after we pass from this life is anyones quess.

Yes.....but that creation made you a parent. God created us ALL...therefore he is all of our father.