BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents ambushed a U.S. patrol, killed four government employees and clashed with U.S. troops Saturday across Baghdad. Nine Iraqis died in fighting west of the capital -- another sign the insurgency remains potent despite the fall of the rebel stronghold of Fallujah.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6403689/

Potent? Maybe, but there resources are not infinite. Sooner or later, enough terrorists will be killed to deter future recruitment. I believe Thomas Sowell had an article on that.

So long as the majority of Iraqis believe they can have the freedoms we enjoy here in the U.S., the fight in Iraq will be won.

Nope, recruitment will always be up because of the way the Bush Administration has run this war. The Prisoner Abuse Scandal has, and always will be an example the terrorists use to recruit.

Not to mention all of the countries that have terrorist ties, are now free to do whatever they want because we are stuck in Iraq. We have almost all of our troops in Iraq. Terrorists are all around the world can now re-group and plan. If you think that all the terrorists are in Iraq, you are sadly mistaken. They are all over the entire world. Now, they have time to plan and get stronger because we are almost 100% focused in Iraq.

Nope, you're wrong.

Yep, I am. *rolls eyes*

You've dragged up, over and over, the Prisoner Abuse scandal and how the war in Iraq is wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's interesting to note that when John Kerry started banging on about how he would run a smarter war, Kerry outlined things the Bush team had already done. Go to the U.N., get authorization for the use of force, get a coalition (read France and Germany, though they are not going to help ANY American President in Iraq and they out and out said so). Kerry also said he would've had a better plan, but your guess is as good as mine what that would've been.

Keep in mind that the Arab street has to balance the Prisoner Abuse scandal, and note that something definate was done about it, and Radical Islamist beheading unarmed civilians. Most Arabs don't have the stomach for the latter.

You may be right about terrorist groups out there thinking what to do next. After seeing what happened in Afghanistan, and what is happening in Iraq (terrorists winding up dead) they may well think that attacking the U.S. isn't a very good idea.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
It's interesting to note that when John Kerry started banging on about how he would run a smarter war, Kerry outlined things the Bush team had already done. Go to the U.N., get authorization for the use of force, get a coalition (read France and Germany, though they are not going to help ANY American President in Iraq and they out and out said so).
Firstly, we didn’t get the UN authorization that Bush promised. Bush promised to work through the UN, and he didn’t. Secondly, we have 90% of the troops in Iraq. Think we have a strong coalition (that Bush promised us)…think again. Which is just pointing out the failures of their planning. They didn’t bring enough troops, and now Iraq is suffering the consequences.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
Keep in mind that the Arab street has to balance the Prisoner Abuse scandal, and note that something definate was done about it, and Radical Islamist beheading unarmed civilians. Most Arabs don't have the stomach for the latter.
Ummm, have you seen Arab Television? It’s all Anti-Iraq War. Perception is reality, and we are the bad guys. The prisoner abuse didn’t help. It only made us look no better then the terrorists.

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
You may be right about terrorist groups out there thinking what to do next. After seeing what happened in Afghanistan, and what is happening in Iraq (terrorists winding up dead) they may well think that attacking the U.S. isn't a very good idea.
Actually, Saddam/Iraq had slim ties to terrorism. That wasn’t a very terrorist heavy place, nor have we hardly impacted Al Queda in Iraq. We could have done so, in other places, and been much more successful.We’ve only made them grow more angry, and pissed. Not to mention, they have time to regroup, and plan since we are stuck in Iraq.

And why wouldn’t they attack us again? We are, as you say killing them (not as much as we could have if we had not gone to Iraq)…and it’s human nature to want revenge…so, if anything, they are more-so wanting to attack us now then ever before.

Understand that the crooked bunch of bastards that comprise most of the U.N. will not become involved in anything that they do not see a financial gain in.

Nope, recruitment will always be up because of the way the Bush Administration has run this war.

Yes, guys, we must be careful to wage a more sensitive war. We don't want the terrorists to get mad at us.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Yes, guys, we must be careful to wage a more sensitive war. We don't want the terrorists to get mad at us.

Ummm, so acting just like the terrorists (the people we call evil)…is helping the situation and making recruitment less?

I have not seen any Americans flying planes into buildings, intentionally targeting innocent men, women, and children.

I havent seen any Americans setting up a video camera and sawing the head off of civilians with a knife.

I havent seen any Americans strapping bombs to their bodies and boarding a bus carrying civilian men, women, and children and blowing themselves up.

Have you?

Originally posted by HaVoK
I have not seen any Americans flying planes into buildings, intentionally targeting innocent men, women, and children.
Ever heard of Timothy McVey? We have our crazy people, too.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I havent seen any Americans setting up a video camera and sawing the head off of civilians with a knife.
Perception is reality. The Arab News, makes us look just as bad…and they have the Prisoner Abuse Scandal to fuel the point they are trying to convey.

Yes, we aren’t as extreme and vulgar. But as I said, Congress wouldn’t release the rest of the Abuse because it was too “horrific” and it reminded many of the holocaust.

When we even act similar to the terrorists, it isn’t good for our reputation…and it is only good for recruitment.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I havent seen any Americans strapping bombs to their bodies and boarding a bus carrying civilian men, women, and children and blowing themselves up.
Over 100,000 Iraqis have been killed. Most have been women and children. That is an extreme amount, that was not called for. Yes, many die in war…and innocents do die. But that amount is far too high and leads one to wonder why so many perished.

Originally posted by Overdose
Ever heard of Timothy McVey? We have our crazy people, too. Timothy McVey was not acting under any orders of the American military or government. Timothy McVey was a terrorist. Skin color does not define a terrorist OD. Your underlying racial bias is showing with this example.

Originally posted by Overdose

Perception is reality. The Arab News, makes us look just as bad…and they have the Prisoner Abuse Scandal to fuel the point they are trying to convey.

Yes, we aren’t as extreme and vulgar. But as I said, Congress wouldn’t release the rest of the Abuse because it was too “horrific” and it reminded many of the holocaust.

When we even act similar to the terrorists, it isn’t good for our reputation…and it is only good for recruitment. .I dont give two shits what the Arab news makes us look like. They dont have any video of any American armed forces personel sawing heads off of civilians. All they have is video of a few terrorists (note: these were not innocent muslims) being made to act like homos and getting the shit kicked out of them. Big difference in my world. I guess no difference in yours.

Originally posted by Overdose

Over 100,000 Iraqis have been killed. Most have been women and children. That is an extreme amount, that was not called for. Yes, many die in war…and innocents do die. But that amount is far too high and leads one to wonder why so many perished. Well next time we go to war, make sure you put your time in so you can be the General in charge of war time planning so you can come up with a kindler, gentler war. Since you seem to know so much about how war is supposed to be waged.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Timothy McVey was not acting under any orders of the American military or government. Timothy McVey was a terrorist. Skin color does not define a terrorist OD. Your underlying racial bias is showing with this example.
My underlying racial bias? How would do you get that from what I said? I’m trying to convey, that all different ethnicities commit terrorist attacks. Yet, you didn’t see us scanning white people extra after his attacks.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I dont give two shits what the Arab news makes us look like. They dont have any video of any American armed forces personel sawing heads off of civilians. All they have is video of a few terrorists (note: these were not innocent muslims) being made to act like homos and getting the shit kicked out of them. Big difference in my world. I guess no difference in yours.
You should get two shits what the Arab News makes us look like. Because, that is what has the most influence on our reputation in the Arab world. No matter if they are spewing lies, or truths, it will impact us greatly.

Several deaths were reported from the Prisons…it wasn’t just “torture” but deaths.

The terrorists are worse, Havok, I know that. All I’m saying is that, to the Arab World, it looks as if we are no better. Perception is reality, HaVok.

Also, the fact is, us forcing them to look like “homos”...as you so eloquently stated, is a sign of disrespect to their religion. It’s a sign that we don’t care about their religion, or values. That has, greatly impacted us. They now look at us, as being Christian Imperialists, who have no respect for their religion.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Well next time we go to war, make sure you put your time in so you can be the General in charge of war time planning so you can come up with a kindler, gentler war. Since you seem to know so much about how war is supposed to be waged.
I never said I could do it, for I don’t have the experience. But we’ve had to resort to bombings, and more harsh tactics because we didn’t bring enough troops. Which has made the innocents killed sore. I’m just trying to point out that, we have killed the innocent as well.

The more you rant & rave, OD, the more anti-American & pro-Arab you sound. Stop screaming about how the war is unjust, because be it or not, we're there & we've got to finish the task at hand. Perhaps we need another 100,000 troops there to completely lock down the population & get the non-Iraqi insurgents the hell out of the country, preferably in body bags.

I'm screaming about how Bush has run this war, ES. Which I am free to do, as an American.

I’m trying to convey, that all different ethnicities commit terrorist attacks.

But not our military. I think that's the point that was trying to be made.

OD lives for any opportunity to show us as a failure. he takes partisanship to the extreme, delighting in our failures as some sort of big middle finger to Bush. the most satisfying thing to this punk is being able to say "I told you so", even though the things he says he was right about are big sweeping generalizations like "we need more troops, but we better not start a draft or retain soldiers about to leave", in other words, he is a big wind bag that makes about as much sense as a britney spears song. a leftist rhetoric regurgitation machine set on high.

Originally posted by Travh20
OD lives for any opportunity to show us as a failure. he takes partisanship to the extreme, delighting in our failures as some sort of big middle finger to Bush.
I’m pointing out the incompetence in the Bush Administration. They didn’t bring enough troops to Iraq, period. They say we are in Iraq to give them a Democracy; yet, we can’t even do that because we didn’t bring enough troops. Bush has stretched our military thin, and is making us less secure at home. Of course I’m going to point out the failures of him, because I disagree with what he’s done in Iraq, and why he went to Iraq.

Bush was told by our military generals that we didn’t have enough troops. Yet, he still went. That shows how reckless Bush is.

In the first gulf war, we had I believe 300,000 troops, compared to the 120,000 now. Yes, I think one can blame Bush for the miss-planning. Iraq is in chaos, because of Bush.

I’m going to attack, blame and criticize him as much as I damn well want to. Get over it Trav…because I won’t stop.

Originally posted by Travh20
he is a big wind bag that makes about as much sense as a britney spears song. a leftist rhetoric regurgitation machine set on high.
Yay! Britney Spears! Hehehehe, she is a Bush supporter you know?

You're wasting your time OD. These thugs do not want to be confused with facts. They have already made up their minds. They think might makes right. And to hell with anyone that doesn't see things their way. Hatred is their driving force.

You're a fine one to talk about hatred, Echo. Reading your posts, one could easily be convinced that you invented the emotion.

Originally posted by Overdose
You should get two shits what the Arab News makes us look like. Because, that is what has the most influence on our reputation in the Arab world. No matter if they are spewing lies, or truths, it will impact us greatly. Well sorry OD, I honestly do not care what they think. The main reason I dont is the simple fact that we cannot control what they think of us. They already have their minds made up. You see, over there, they have no political correctness. If they dont like a certain political/religious group, they dont have to act like they do.


Originally posted by Overdose
Several deaths were reported from the Prisons…it wasn’t just “torture” but deaths. I dont have a problem with that really. They were bad people OD. The ones we are at war with. If we have to kill a few to get the information needed to help end this war as quickly as possible, then so be it.


Originally posted by Overdose
The terrorists are worse, Havok, I know that. All I’m saying is that, to the Arab World, it looks as if we are no better. Perception is reality, HaVok. If that's the case, then I feel the Arab world should be staunch supporters of what our country is doing. We are liberating an arab country that was under the control of one of the most evil dictators in the world. We are bringing their country democracy.


Originally posted by Overdose
Also, the fact is, us forcing them to look like “homos”...as you so eloquently stated, is a sign of disrespect to their religion. It’s a sign that we don’t care about their religion, or values. That has, greatly impacted us. They now look at us, as being Christian Imperialists, who have no respect for their religion. This arguement holds no relevance at all OD. Every day I come on this site, my religion is disrespected. I dont hear you ever condemn any of them that disrespect my religion. Why is that?

Originally posted by HaVoK
Well sorry OD, I honestly do not care what they think. The main reason I dont is the simple fact that we cannot control what they think of us. They already have their minds made up. You see, over there, they have no political correctness. If they dont like a certain political/religious group, they dont have to act like they do.
I’m not saying we can change what they broadcast or present to the people of the Middle East. I’m just saying, huge mess-ups, like the Prisoner Abuse only gives them even more pictures, and video to present to the Middle East in fueling anti-Americanism. Which is why, we should all care about how we look on the news over there. Basically, we look like imperialists who want to take their land for oil. Perception is reality, and so far, we aren’t doing anything to change their perception.
Originally posted by HaVoK
I dont have a problem with that really. They were bad people OD. The ones we are at war with. If we have to kill a few to get the information needed to help end this war as quickly as possible, then so be it.
Firstly, you claim that the terrorists are “so evil, because they murder innocents” Then you turn right around and don’t care that we act just like the terrorists? Killing is killing, Havok.

Many prisoners in these prisons were released because we found that many were innocent civilians.

You are hypocritical, when you call them evil and us good. You are contracting yourself, and it’s sickening. If you want to sink down to the tactics used by the terrorists, fine by me

Also, torturing has proven ineffective in terms of “gathering” information. If you abuse them, they will tell you what you want to hear (not what you need to hear), in order to get out of the abuse. Usually they lie in order to escape abuse. Sorry, but it’s an ineffective tactic.
Originally posted by HaVoK
We are liberating an arab country that was under the control of one of the most evil dictators in the world. We are bringing their country democracy.
This is a war on terrorism, Havok. Not liberating the entire world.

Oh, and great way to start a Democracy. “Live in a Government of freedoms, or we will shoot you!” See the hypocrisy in that? Not to mention, Iraq is in chaos. Yeah, real good Democracy.
Originally posted by HaVoK
This arguement holds no relevance at all OD. Every day I come on this site, my religion is disrespected. I dont hear you ever condemn any of them that disrespect my religion. Why is that?
So you are okay with acting just like the very people you hate? You hate us for attacking your religion, so you find it okay to attack other religions? That’s again, hypocritical. If you know it hurts so much to be attacked for your religion, then you shouldn’t do the same to others.

Originally posted by Overdose
You are hypocritical, when you call them evil and us good. You are contracting yourself, and it’s sickening. If you want to sink down to the tactics used by the terrorists, fine by me I dont think im being hypocritical in the least. As you so like to point out when you express your opinions, we are in America and its my right to have an opinion. Even if you dont agree with it.




Originally posted by Overdose
Also, torturing has proven ineffective in terms of “gathering” information. If you abuse them, they will tell you what you want to hear (not what you need to hear), in order to get out of the abuse. Usually they lie in order to escape abuse. Sorry, but it’s an ineffective tactic. Once again, this is only your opinion. There are many skilled interogator's who would disagree with you. But what do they know? You, a 15 year old, sexually confused, spoiled brat from the Pacific Northwest obviously have all the answers to this and other issues.



Originally posted by Overdose
This is a war on terrorism, Havok. Not liberating the entire world.
You have been given evidence of Sadaam's cooperation with terrorist organizations on various other threads yet you still try to maintain he had none.



Originally posted by Overdose
So you are okay with acting just like the very people you hate? You hate us for attacking your religion, so you find it okay to attack other religions? That’s again, hypocritical. If you know it hurts so much to be attacked for your religion, then you shouldn’t do the same to others. Im not acting any way. I simply pointed out your own hypocracy in that you will take up for one religion but you mysteriously have remained mute whenever anyone disrespects my religion. Why? And please dont twist my words. I never said anyone disrespecting my religion "hurt" me. Im an adult. Words will never hurt me.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I dont think im being hypocritical in the least. As you so like to point out when you express your opinions, we are in America and its my right to have an opinion. Even if you dont agree with it.
You are hypocritical. You don’t care that we kill innocents (100,000) and act very similar to the terrorists in our Prisons. But then you claim that the terrorists are “evil”. Aren’t we acting similar to them? Yes. You are hypocritical if you don’t care about us acting evil, but then you care about them acting evil.
Originally posted by HaVoK
Once again, this is only your opinion. There are many skilled interogator's who would disagree with you. But what do they know?
If someone was abusing me, I would tell them what they want to hear, rather then what is the truth (which may not be what they want to hear)
Originally posted by HaVoK
You, a 15 year old, sexually confused, spoiled brat from the Pacific Northwest obviously have all the answers to this and other issues.
Getting personally now? Ahhh, the maturity of the adults on this forum. Well, go ahead, insult me…
Originally posted by HaVoK
You have been given evidence of Sadaam's cooperation with terrorist organizations on various other threads yet you still try to maintain he had none.
I maintain that others were far more linked to terrorism and we should have dealt with them before moving onto Iraq.
Originally posted by HaVoK
Im not acting any way. I simply pointed out your own hypocracy in that you will take up for one religion but you mysteriously have remained mute whenever anyone disrespects my religion. Why? And please dont twist my words. I never said anyone disrespecting my religion "hurt" me. Im an adult. Words will never hurt me.
You condom us making fun of their religion (Muslims), but then you attack us for making fun of yours? That’s hypocritical.

Also, I hardly ever get into religious debates. When have I insulted your religion? Example?

Have a great day OD. I dont know why i even try.

You are hypocritical. You don’t care that we kill innocents (100,000) and act very similar to the terrorists in our Prisons. But then you claim that the terrorists are “evil”. Aren’t we acting similar to them?

You are so misguided. We don't target civillians. Civillian deaths are not intentional. The terrorists on the other hand...

Secondly, I don't see how you can compare the Abu Ghraib scandal (which is contrary to the policy of our military) to the way the terrorists treat their prisoners (sawing their heads off with a knife. have you seen any of those videos OD?).

You condom us making fun of their religion

Freudian slip?

Overdose, it is not bushs fault we dont have enough troops in the US military. was if FDR's fault we were so short handed at the start of WW2? should we have waited to attack saddam until we raised another 10 divisions? you think you are making some good point but it is not making any sense. the US military is always shorthanded. always. you clearly have no knowledge of united states military history. to you this is a disaster, chaos. of course some sheltered white boy like you wouldnt know any better.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
You are so misguided. We don't target civillians. Civillian deaths are not intentional. The terrorists on the other hand...
Really…then why is over 100,000 Iraqis killed? I find it ironic that such a huge amount were killed in Iraq. Any explanations for why the deaths of the civilians is so great?

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Secondly, I don't see how you can compare the Abu Ghraib scandal (which is contrary to the policy of our military) to the way the terrorists treat their prisoners (sawing their heads off with a knife. have you seen any of those videos OD?).
Firstly, I remember stating clearly that the terrorists are worse. I guess you forgot that part, Dave. But, I said that if we act similar to the terrorists (like in the prisoner abuse scandal) it makes us look no better then the terrorists in may peoples eyes.

Originally posted by Travh20
Overdose, it is not bushs fault we dont have enough troops in the US military.
Yes, it is. He should have waited for world support, or he shouldn’t have invaded at all if he knew he couldn’t stabilize a country we invaded. That’s part of the deal, you have to win the peace and fix what you ruin. If we knew we couldn’t do that before hand, we should have never invaded.

Really…then why is over 100,000 Iraqis killed? I find it ironic that such a huge amount were killed in Iraq. Any explanations for why the deaths of the civilians is so great?

OD, c'mon now. You know there are civillian casualties in ALL conflicts. I can't believe you would even alledge that we actually TARGET civillians. Why the heck would we do that?

Firstly, I remember stating clearly that the terrorists are worse. I guess you forgot that part, Dave. But, I said that if we act similar to the terrorists (like in the prisoner abuse scandal) it makes us look no better then the terrorists in may peoples eyes.

So the terrorists are worse, they just don't look worse. Gotcha.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
So the terrorists are worse, they just don't look worse. Gotcha.
To the Muslims, we look the same. Is that good for our reputation? No. Is that good for winning support? No. Is that good for us? No. Is that making us safer? No.

Bush was told by our military generals that we didn’t have enough troops. Yet, he still went. That shows how reckless Bush is.

Justice will be served to the Overdosed one when his house catches on fire, and the firemen refuse to put it out because there aren't enough firemen there to put it out. :)

Ummmm, you sure got me there!

I have an explanation as to why there are so many civilian casualties. the terrorists blowing up cars in big crowds of iraqis who are just trying to live their lives may have something to do with it. of course incorpertating the number of iraqis killed by terrorists into your civilian death count isnt good for your argument, so that is left out. better to just insinuate we killed em all.

Originally posted by Travh20
I have an explanation as to why there are so many civilian casualties. the terrorists blowing up cars in big crowds of iraqis who are just trying to live their lives may have something to do with it. of course incorpertating the number of iraqis killed by terrorists into your civilian death count isnt good for your argument, so that is left out. better to just insinuate we killed em all.

Ummmm, Trav, do you remember when the Iraqi Death count was around 11,000? That was a large number for many people around the United States. Now we find it’s over 100,000. What does that tell you? That we are making mistakes that has lead to the Iraqis becoming slaughtered in Iraq.

Do you not understand that blowing yourself up in a car bombing could kill roughly 30people in a given area? But that bombs that are being drooped from plans can kill over thousands of civilians with just one click of a button? That is the difference, Trav.

Not to mention the Uranium that our bombs contain has lead to many babies, and women becoming poisoned and then they eventually die.

I’ve never said that I believe all troops do this. I never even said the majority of the troops do this. But it only takes a few, to lead to this extreme Iraqi Death Toll. I’ve never denied that the terrorists are trying to kill the Iraqis, but isn’t their prime targets the US military, not the civilians?

*impression of Overdose*

Obviously, bombers should be on trial for pre-meditated murder for clicking that button and intentionally killing thousands on innocent women and babies!!!!!

Now why the hell can't we get anyone to sign up for the armed forces?? *baffled look*

When did I say all bombers purposely attacked innocent civilians? I’m betting a few have purposely targeted civilians.

Originally posted by Overdose
I’ve never denied that the terrorists are trying to kill the Iraqis, but isn’t their prime targets the US military, not the civilians?

let me get this straight overdose, you give the benifit of the doubt to the terrorists that they are killing civilians in the act of targeting americans, but not the other way around? everytime I think you cant get any more wrong you break through a new barrier of ignorance and stupidity :comphit:

Originally posted by Travh20
let me get this straight overdose, you give the benifit of the doubt to the terrorists that they are killing civilians in the act of targeting Americans
When have I ever given the benefit of the doubt to the terrorists? And you say I’m stupid…lol, Trav, I’ve never made such a claim. So, ummm, you’re wrong and incorrect…yet again!

Originally posted by Travh20
everytime I think you cant get any more wrong you break through a new barrier of ignorance and stupidity :
Yes, I’m stupid…

I’ve never given the terrorists the benefit of the doubt. So, your entire post was stupid, because it is completely false. So, I think you’re the one that is suffering from ignorance.

When have I ever given the benefit of the doubt to the terrorists?

How about the 1001 times that you proclaimed that Hussein never had weapons of mass destruction?

Originally posted by Karankawa
How about the 1001 times that you proclaimed that Hussein never had weapons of mass destruction?

Did he have them? Because, we sure as hell haven't found them.

give it up, youve been outed. the terrorists kill civilians in an attempt to kill US military, the US military has intentionally killed civilians a few times. let me let you in on a little secret. the terrorists kill iraqi civilians ALL THE TIME ON PURPOSE! THATS WHY THEY ARE TERRORISTS! saying our military targets civilians is the SM AS CALLING THEM TERRORIST I swear you are the biggest double talker of all time. dont try and bullshit your way out of this with your snide comments or smart ass remarks. just shut up and hope you dont ever have to confront any soldiers.

Originally posted by Travh20
give it up, youve been outed.
I have? Really? I don’t think I have...I think you fail to comprehend things...and you don’t truly understand what I’m trying to convey.

Originally posted by Travh20
the terrorists kill civilians in an attempt to kill US military, the US military has intentionally killed civilians a few times. let me let you in on a little secret. the terrorists kill iraqi civilians ALL THE TIME ON PURPOSE! THATS WHY THEY ARE TERRORISTS!
Yes, they do kill the Iraqi people on purpose all the time. When have I denied this Trav? You make false assumptions and it’s honestly, laughable. You even admit that our troops have done it a few times, which is what I was saying all along. Even a few of our troops can cause thousands of deaths, Trav.

Originally posted by Travh20
saying our military targets civilians is the SM AS CALLING THEM TERRORIST I swear you are the biggest double talker of all time. dont try and bullshit your way out of this with your snide comments or smart ass remarks. just shut up and hope you dont ever have to confront any soldiers.
I never said our military targets civilians, I said certain troops do (very few, actually) You even admitted that we’ve done it, and that’s all I was saying.

And why would I have to worry about confronting a solider? I never said all soldiers did this, or even the majority. I said a few did, like in every war. And you even admitted that, that’s true. Thanks for proving my point. hahahahaha, good job Trav.

your statements speak for themselves OD. LIke I said, dont try and BS your way out of this.

"Originally posted by Overdose:
I’ve never denied that the terrorists are trying to kill the Iraqis, but isn’t their prime targets the US military, not the civilians?"

you are implying they kill civilians in the act of targeting the US Military


"Originally posted by Overdose:
When did I say all bombers purposely attacked innocent civilians? I’m betting a few have purposely targeted civilians."

by saying a few "bombers" have targeted civilians, that means you believe our commanders are giving orders to bomb civilians, as bombers generally dont just fly around looking for groups of people to bomb, and instead have very specific targets already designated when they take off. perhaps if you had said a few renegade sadist troops are doing it it would understandable, but saying we are bombing civilians intentionally is a little to John Kerryesque for my liking. saying we are systematically targetting civilians and not just accidentally killing civilians in our attempt to kill the terrorists who hide among them intentionally because they know we dont target civilians.

didnt it ever occur to you that the reasons so many civilians have dies is becasue the terrorists hide among them because they know taht we will not intentinally target civilians and do everything we can to stop civilians from dying? if the terrorists hide among civilians should we just not do anything? should we just give up and say "you win, your hiding behind those kids, so we cant shoot. go ahead and plot and plan and build bombs all you want, your safe" honestly, you claim to be so in tune with reality when really nothing could be farther from the truth

Originally posted by Travh20
if the terrorists hide among civilians should we just not do anything? should we just give up and say "you win, your hiding behind those kids, so we cant shoot. go ahead and plot and plan and build bombs all you want, your safe"

Tell us : where do you draw the line ?
1 innocent civilian killed for 10 terrorists dead ? 1 for 2 ? 10 for 1 ?

Do kids under 10 count for half a civilian or for two ?

How comes in the USA bombers and mortars are not used to stop murderers who live among civilians ? "We know the guy live in this block, just behind the kindergarden. Send the smart bombs".

your right, anytime there is a group Baath militia men or foreign terrorists around civilians we should do nothing. since that is all the time, we will never do anything and they win by default. good plan france.

Originally posted by Travh20
your statements speak for themselves OD. LIke I said, dont try and BS your way out of this.
I’ll do whatever I want, thank you very much.

Originally posted by Travh20
you are implying they kill civilians in the act of targeting the US Military
I’m implying that the insurgents main targets are the United States soldiers, not the Iraqi civilians. But, that doesn’t mean they don’t also, attack civilians. Putting words in my mouth, isn't wise of you.


Originally posted by Travh20
by saying a few "bombers" have targeted civilians, that means you believe our commanders are giving orders to bomb civilians
No, that is not what it implies, Trav. How do you get that from what I stated? Soldiers sometimes do not follow orders, and they commit acts of extreme madness. Never once did I blame the commanders, Trav. Get your facts straight.

Originally posted by Travh20
saying we are systematically targetting civilians and not just accidentally killing civilians in our attempt to kill the terrorists who hide among them intentionally because they know we dont target civilians.
Nope, I’ve never said our military targets our civilians. I said a few soldiers that are, with all respect, crazy. In every war you have soldiers that go against orders, and commit acts of hell. That’s what I’m saying. Don’t put words in my mouth, Trav.

Originally posted by Travh20
if the terrorists hide among civilians should we just not do anything? should we just give up and say "you win, your hiding behind those kids, so we cant shoot. go ahead and plot and plan and build bombs all you want, your safe" honestly, you claim to be so in tune with reality when really nothing could be farther from the truth
Did it ever occur to you that the Uranium Poisoning that is in our bombs has lead to the extreme deaths of the Iraqis?

And I’ve never once doubted or denied that the terrorists sometimes do hide among innocents, which is why I never said all of the civilian deaths were on purpose. But when you start to exceed 100,000 deaths, in just a little over a year, it leaves one to wonder.

keep grasping overdose. you wil never talk your way out of it. by the way, why ot go into my post about the troulbe the insurgency is having, or is that to sensitive an issue for you?

by the way, depleted uranium is not in bombs genius, its in 30mm machine gun rounds fired from A-10's and from AH-64 attack helicopters, but you being someone who was so sure we needed "more troops" I am sure you knew that.

Originally posted by Travh20
keep grasping overdose. you wil never talk your way out of it.
I already did. Or else you would of stayed on topic.

Originally posted by Travh20
by the way, why ot go into my post about the troulbe the insurgency is having, or is that to sensitive an issue for you?
I just got home, Trav. And, I don’t have to debate everything you want to.

of course not princess, mommy and daddy told you you could do whatever you want :rolleyes:

you cant defend your position that you claim we are failing when confronted with a post showing our enemies are running for their lives and as desperate as ever. when Iraq is in the clear and a functioning democracy and the people live in freedom what are you going to say about it? are you going to say "I knew ita ll along" or are you going to be honest and admit you were ready to throw in the towel from the beginnig, so scared it was going to turn into another vietnam you didnt realize your very attitude and behavior were the things that would make it a vietnam. remember, vietnam wasnt lost in vietnam, it was lost here in the US.

Originally posted by Travh20
of course not princess, mommy and daddy told you you could do whatever you want :rolleyes:
What? I can say whatever I want on this political forum. Just because you think I can’t “dig my way out of this” doesn’t mean I cannot reply to your idiocy.

Originally posted by Travh20
you cant defend your position that you claim we are failing when confronted with a post showing our enemies are running for their lives and as desperate as ever.
This thread isn’t about that, Trav.

Originally posted by Travh20
when Iraq is in the clear and a functioning democracy and the people live in freedom what are you going to say about it? are you going to say "I knew ita ll along" or are you going to be honest and admit you were ready to throw in the towel from the beginnig, so scared it was going to turn into another vietnam you didnt realize your very attitude and behavior were the things that would make it a vietnam. remember, vietnam wasnt lost in vietnam, it was lost here in the US.
This isn’t what we are talking about either.

So your whole “I can’t dig myself out” is false, because we aren’t debating the issues and you are ignoring what we originally started talking about.

But as for this, if Iraq ever has a functioning Democracy, I’ll admit it. But, this is a war on terrorism, not giving the Iraqis a Democracy…so it really doesn’t matter, now does it, Trav?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Understand that the crooked bunch of bastards that comprise most of the U.N. will not become involved in anything that they do not see a financial gain in.

And that goes DOUBLE for the leaders of the rightwing Corporate State government in the U.S.

They are gleefully counting the billions they have bilked the gullible American taxpayers out of in waging their illegal 'war' against Iraq.

And that they will CONTINUE TO bilk them out of, thanks to their having the support of around 58,700,00 "useful idiots".

your right overdose, now that your looking like a coward and traitor you want to stick with the topic of the post, whatever. i will take your refusal to answer as my answer. go back to september tenth and put your head up your ass as usual

Originally posted by Freethinker
And that goes DOUBLE for the leaders of the rightwing Corporate State government in the U.S.

They are gleefully counting the billions they have bilked the gullible American taxpayers out of in waging their illegal 'war' against Iraq.

And that they will CONTINUE TO bilk them out of, thanks to their having the support of around 58,700,00 "useful idiots".

better a useful idiot then a worthless idiot such as yourself

Originally posted by Travh20
your right overdose, now that your looking like a coward and traitor you want to stick with the topic of the post, whatever.
We were talking about the fact that some men in our military purposely kill the innocent. You even admitted to this, yet, you call me a traitor. Stupid? Yes.

Next, you say that I believe our military does this. When I never said that

So, you admit what I was trying to say all along, and you then try and put words in my mouth to "prove your point". Sorry, but the reason you left the topic we were debating, was because you had nothing more to use against me. It looks like I did “dig myself out”

Originally posted by Travh20
go back to september tenth and put your head up your ass as usual
What? On September 10th, I wasn't a afraid for my life. After September 11th, I was. I wanted to hunt and attack every terrorist in the entire world. Are we doing that as well as we could be? Hell no.

look man, I am about at the end of my rope with your silly ass. I said that there are sadist crazy troops wh kill indiscrimantly, you said our bombers were blowing up civilians. bombers have specific targets which are given to them by headquarters. so saying our bombers are targeting civilians automatically implies they were ordered to bomb civilians. since you seem to be the resident military genius I assume you know that and say it anyway.
anyway, tell us all how we can better fight terrorism, and if you say world allies one time I am going to reach through this monitor and slap you

Originally posted by Travh20
look man, I am about at the end of my rope with your silly ass.
Good. Pissing off conservatives is my passion.

Originally posted by Travh20
I said that there are sadist crazy troops wh kill indiscrimantly, you said our bombers were blowing up civilians. bombers have specific targets which are given to them by headquarters. so saying our bombers are targeting civilians automatically implies they were ordered to bomb civilians. since you seem to be the resident military genius I assume you know that and say it anyway.
Wrong, again. Our bombers attacked 3 Arabic News organizations in one day, and they were not targets. The news channels tell our forces where they are, so we don’t bomb them. We did. Also, a hotel was bombed in Iraq, as well as a few hospitals. Care to explain that, Trav?

Originally posted by Travh20
anyway, tell us all how we can better fight terrorism, and if you say world allies one time I am going to reach through this monitor and slap you
Yay! Slap me, Trav! Hahahahha. I’ve already explained this to you before. We go where terrorism is more prevalent.

Originally posted by Overdose
Good. Pissing off conservatives is my passion.

thats good because thats probably the only thing you will ever be good at


Originally posted by Overdose
Wrong, again. Our bombers attacked 3 Arabic News organizations in one day, and they were not targets. The news channels tell our forces where they are, so we don’t bomb them. We did. Also, a hotel was bombed in Iraq, as well as a few hospitals. Care to explain that, Trav?

I suppose we intentionally bombed the chinese embassy in Serbia too right?


Originally posted by Overdose
Yay! Slap me, Trav! Hahahahha. I’ve already explained this to you before. We go where terrorism is more prevalent.

ya, and where is terrorism more prevalent then in iraq?

Originally posted by Travh20
thats good because thats probably the only thing you will ever be good at
That, and proving them wrong.

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, and where is terrorism more prevalent then in iraq?
Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria

for the last time you cant prove anyone wrong with your opinions.

and are you saying we should tatack these countries youy listed? what should we do about them? put sanctions on them? send in some observers?

Originally posted by Travh20
for the last time you cant prove anyone wrong with your opinions.
lol, okay Trav. Whatever you say.

Originally posted by Travh20
and are you saying we should tatack these countries youy listed? what should we do about them? put sanctions on them? send in some observers?
Ummm, we can’t attack them, we are in Iraq (duh!) And as for the sanctions…um they worked on Iraq. He didn’t have weapons.

so if we could attack them should we? and if youy think the sanctions were working agaisnt saddam you better go look up a little think called the oil for food scandal.

Originally posted by Travh20
so if we could attack them should we?
Depending on if their Governments did or didn't comply with us.
Originally posted by Travh20
and if youy think the sanctions were working agaisnt saddam you better go look up a little think called the oil for food scandal.
What does that have to do with him not having weapons?

your in serious need of a wake up call. get out of the gay bars of portland for a few days and back to reality

Good reply. :)

why reply to your "its a war on terroirsm, not awar on dictators" for the 10,000 th time? never mind we are not fighting dictators in iraq and havent for the past year and ahalf, but when did reality ever get in the way of your defeatist rhetoric?

Ummmmm, and we could be fighting terrorism better elsewhere.

ya, yousaid that a thousand times already. gie us some examples or shut up with it.

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, yousaid that a thousand times already. gie us some examples or shut up with it.

Already posted....comprehension?

Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria

ya, thats who, give us some examples of how we should do it. we already know your intelligence has shwn you whrer the terrorists are, what are you going to do about it? have the dictators pledge to you they will fight terror or go in yourself. of course the dictators wont let you send troops in so you will have to shoot your way in. what is an effective way to negotiate with these dictators and get them to fgight terrorism inside their borders?

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, thats who, give us some examples of how we should do it.
We can’t do anything, because we are stuck in Iraq, Trav. (look above, I already went over this.

good god your dense

Originally posted by Travh20
good god your dense
Well,thanks. :)