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Echo2
11-19-2004, 04:19 PM
To European Friends: Explaining the 2004 Election Disaster

November 19, 2004
By Bernard Weiner, The Crisis Papers

Dear Wolfgang and Jacqueline:

Thank you for your long, handwritten letter (don't see many of those these days). Yes, I know that our election and our vote-counting process do not make sense to you citizens of Europe. But I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can - it's not easy, since the situation is confusing on this end as well.

As I understand it from your letter, here is the gist of what puzzles you about our electoral process. My explanations follow below.

1. Why do you Americans go crazy at times and choose such unqualified (and/or dumb) leaders?

2. How can you Americans be so politically divided right down the middle for such a long time, until it winds up with one or two states being the deciders? Why can't you settle the fight once and for all, or divide your voting blocs proportionally into your Congress, as we do in our countries?

3. How can you Americans even hope to convince your citizens, and us in other countries, that you have reliable, honest elections when private companies (who have ideological/monetary relationships with one party) manufacture the voting machines, write the secret software that runs them, and, worst of all, have access to the vote-counting tabulation process? Why should anyone accept the legitimacy of those results?

4. How come in the last two U.S. presidential elections, even though the final vote was unclear - with hundreds of thousands of ballots still to be counted, amid allegations of fraud - the Democratic candidate meekly conceded and didn't put up any fuss? Doesn't your Opposition party want to win?

5. How come Bush can win a second term when a substantial majority of the U.S., according to polls, thinks the war in Iraq was a bad idea and won't turn out well at all? The war, as has been demonstrated convincingly by official study after study, was based on the false premises that Iraq possessed huge stockpiles of WMDs and would use them on its neighbors and against the U.S. mainland, and that Saddam was connected to Al Qaida and the 9/11 attacks. Even the Bush Administration eventually had to admit the falsity of those claims, and now your young men and women are being slaughtered, along with more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians. Why elect the man who got you into that mess in the first place?

1. WHY DO YOU ELECT CLOWNS & DOLTS?

Where I live, in California, we elected a song-and-dance man (George Murphy) and a rabble-rousing university president (S.I. Hawakawa) to be United States Senators, and a Grade B movie actor (Ronald Reagan) to be governor, who then went on to be elected President. We also recently recalled a competent if plodding governor and replaced him with another Grade B actor, a former body-builder (Arnold Schwarzenegger). Minnesota recently had a professional wrestler for governor (Jesse Ventura).

Americans have elected would-be dictators as President (Richard Nixon, George W. Bush).

We have passed on clearly highly-qualified candidates (Adlai Stevenson, for one) and had to endure dolts and mediocrities (Gerald Ford, George H.W. Bush).

On the other hand, we have elected those from whom we weren't expecting all that much (Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton), only to be pleasantly surprised with how they grew into the job, despite their tragic flaws and policies of great error.

So, as you can see, we Americans exhibit absolutely no consistency with regard to the person we elect as President. And their election often has little to do with their innate intelligence, or lack thereof.

I think what you're really asking is how, having watched for four years as George W. Bush has disgraced the presidency and demonstrated his inability to rise to the occasion, we could have elected this guy.

Virtually all of the presidents mentioned above behaved civily to their political opponents. (Nixon was an exception: dirty tricks to win election, compiling an "enemies" list to punish, heinous felonies.) And the mass media were much more investigatory and independent.

But the hard-right, which cares not a fig for democratic institutions - other than in how it can manipulate them - decided to forego civility and go for total annihilation of their opposition. Right-wing billionaires established think-tanks, bought up and founded mass-media outlets (national radio talk shows, cable TV shows, Fox News, et al.), spent millions on training college-age Republicans, etc. That hard-right infrastructure was in place for nearly 15 years or more, and is getting stronger, especially given its current tight alliances with the fundamentalist/evangelical churches.

The Democrats, meanwhile, still dreaming of their glory days in the ascendancy decades before, were essentially clueless about what was happening beneath the radar - and even when the hard-right boasted loudly of their plans, they still didn't get it.

Day-by-day or every four years?

The Republicians view the political war as ongoing, day-by-day building their fortress stronger, whereas the Democrats treat politics as a once-every-two-or-four-year battle. No wonder they continually get their butts stomped, even when the public in so many areas of policy agrees more with their domestic programs. (Plus, the Democrats have yet to figure out how to both maintain the moral high ground and fight back against the GOP's cutthroat brand of politics.)

In short, the Karl Roves in that hard-right world figured out how to use the conglomerate-owned mass media and the "religious" right-wing to their advantage, while the Democrats tend not to get in gear until late in the election game - too late, as it turns out.

One more thing: so many Americans lead circumscribed lives of quiet desperation, just trying to get by economically and deal with the fast-moving social and cultural changes that are going on. They look for someone to lead them through the chaos and confusion. This helps explain, as in Muslim cultures as well, the pull of religious fundamentalism and the desire for a theocracy.

Those with simple answers, simple slogans, name-recognition, and celebrity, tap into this social phenomenon; those who "do" nuance, who understand complexity, who listen to what reality is telling them, tend to be dismissed (Stevenson, Kerry). Hence, George W. Bush - who thinks with his "gut," exhibits no curiosity, admits no mistakes, you "know where he stands" - is able to lead so many down the greased ramp toward an incipient American fascism.

The hard-right has been able to subtly shift the voting public's attention away from economic issues - i.e., those that truly and often negatively affect their daily lives - to a kind of cultural class struggle, fanning the flames of fright against enemies they don't know but fear greatly (homosexuals, immigrants, secularists, et al).

2. ABOUT THAT GREAT POLITICAL DIVIDE

The political divide is strong, immense and real. It seems fairly constant, not destined to disappear anytime soon.

If you examine it closely, you can see that the coastal states and those with huge population centers tend to be more liberal, secular, diverse, well-educated, in touch with foreign cultures. Those internal states, among them the once solid (Democratic) South, are less diverse, more religiously-affililiated, less conversant with the larger world beyond our borders.

Those are generalizations; larger metropolitan areas within the internal ("red") states, and those which house major universities, tend to resemble the coastal ("blue") outlook and attitudes. Indeed, what has to be understood is that Bush didn't "sweep" all those red states by huge margins; many of those states are split down the middle as well - often described, in color terms, as neither wholly red nor blue but "purple."

Why that divide? My guess is that it has something to do with the end of two wars.

Women and African Americans

The first was World War II. All wars generate in their wake enormous social, economic and political upheavals.

Women, who assumed traditionally "male" jobs during the war while their husbands and sons were fighting in Europe and in the Pacific, subsumed their desire for equality once the soldiers returned. But that ache for a fuller female role in the body politic and in the workplace would gestate and explode 25 years later in a resurgent feminist movement.

African Americans, who served in the Armed Forces and who worked in traditionally "white" jobs during the war, were more immediately adamant for social justice after WWII, especially since they had fought Aryan racism abroad only to find it still excercising brutal power over their lives when they got back to the States. This pentup desire for equality and freedom led directly to the civil rights struggle for racial equality in the South and elsewhere.

In both instances, white men, especially in the South, felt threatened by moves toward feminist parity and the desire by minorities for equality of treatment. The solid Democratic South gradually, and then swiftly, moved to the Republican Party, which masterfully played the underlying racism and misogony of the South to their advantage. (Obviously, for brevity I'm oversimplifying here, as many other factors were in play as well.)

Locate the new "enemy"

The other war was the Cold War. Our obsession with, and fear of, world communism provided a unifying container for Americans, a way of approaching the world that made sense, an enemy all Americans could revile.

Certainly, the American right-wing could concentrate on that enemy, using fear of communist expansion as their ticket to power. When the Wall came down in East Germany, when the entire communist sytem imploded of its own contradictions in the Soviet Union and its satellites, a new "enemy" had to be identified.

That new enemy became change itself, the social and political landscape that was shifting so rapidly - symbolized by everything we understand by the term "The Sixties" - causing such confusion and personal/social upheaval. Some found comfort in their churches, which offerred more simple ways of observing and dealing with the rapidly changing scene around them. Some looked for possible progenitors to punish for all that confusing change; the new "devils" became homosexuals, secular liberals, feminists, immigrants, and so on.

And the Republican Party, way more prescient than the Democrats in running with demographic shifts - and understanding the desire of many for a simple way of dealing with rapidfire, dislocating change - managed to meld church and fear together for electoral victory after victory.

When 9/11 happened, the GOP attached that running train engine to the new foreign enemy, the "Islamic terrorists," and off they rode into the sunset, untouchable. The Republicans' victory margin is razor-thin, but it's enough, time and time again, and the Democrats are only now, a decade or so late, starting to have a serious internal discussion about how to climb back into real competition for power.

3. WHO VOTES COUNTS, BUT WHO COUNTS THE VOTES RULES

Everyone knew that our balloting and vote-tabulating system was a thorough disaster, as Florida 2000 demonstrated. But the Democrats were asleep at the wheel when Congress passed HAVA (Help America Vote Act) that mandated an eventual switchover to computer-voting machines in all precincts by 2006.

Nearly one-third of American voters cast their ballots on such machines in the 2004 election - machines that provided no paper trail for auditing in case of recounts - with another healthy chunk voting on optical-scanner machines that do provide paper receipts of the numbers on their ballot in case a recount is in order.

The same Republican-supporting companies manufacture the machines, and control the secret software regulating those machines - and tabulate the votes from those machines. At any point along that path, security is so lax that those numbers easily can be manipulated without anyone being the wiser.

As a result, nearly half of the population has no idea if their votes were altered. Thus, two suspect presidential elections in the past four years (along with one midterm vote in 2002). No wonder few Americans or observers from abroad have any reason to trust in the integrity of the U.S. voting process - and thus in the legitimacy of the person serving as President.

The electoral train wreck

The Congressional Democrats, who should have and could have stopped this electoral train wreck before it built up steam, permitted HAVA to pass and required no changes in procedures before the November balloting. Further, neither Kerry nor Edwards nor anyone from their campaign raised the issue of the integrity of balloting and vote-counting prior to November 2. In short, the Republicans were given a virtual free ride - right into the White House.

As I write this, there are recounts ordered in several key states and court challenges to the balloting and vote-tabulating process, but whether they will yield anything significant in terms of possibly changing the 2004 result is problematic - though many of us are doing what we can to promote these recounts and investigations.

If Bush is indeed certified as the winner of the 2004 election, he will enter the presidency with an understood asterix next to his name, as his campaign engaged in all sorts of electoral skullduggery to suppress the Democratic (mainly minority) vote, by intimidation, harassment, destroying voter registration forms, and so on - and may have taken advantage of vote-counting manipulations in optical-scanner and touch-screen voting machines that probably are devoid of "smoking gun" evidence that would definitively prove the rigged vote.

One would hope that, given this constant suspicion about vote-stealing, the system would be fixed for the next (midterm) election in 2006, and for sure for the 2008 presidential vote. But, unless Democrats and worried Republicans join hands to force these reforms, nothing will change. And, of course, the party officials in power, in the White House and in the GOP, have no desire to change anything, since the corrupt system works for them just fine, thank you. (Indeed, they also are trying to prohibit future "exit polling," one of the few ways one can gauge whether vote tallies are honest.)

The logical solution for providing an honest balloting - at least for the next several elections, or until the vote-tabulating can be taken out of the hands of private businessmen - is to return to paper ballots, marked by voters, and counted one by one by monitored voting officials. It's done in Canada, with no problems. But don't count on that logical solution in the U.S. unless the citizenry rises up and absolutely demands it.

4. KERRY DOES A GORE WITH EARLY CONCESSION - WHY?

That is a great mystery, and Kerry hasn't gone into detail, only that the numbers weren't there for him in Ohio. He didn't even mention the possibility of miscounting and fraud there or in other states; he just called it quits.

Because Gore also conceded way early (before going to court) - and then when the Supreme Court installed Bush, was gracious and positive about the need to heal the country - your question is a good one. Are the Democrats just too wimpy, much too gentlemanly, still not realizing that they're facing smashmouth politicos across the aisle, anxious to utterly destroy them as an effective opposition?

There is a theory circulating that Kerry is engaged in political rope-a-dope, that behind the scenes he's watching how the various recounts and court challenges (some by Nader and Cobb) are going, and if things look positive, he'll come out pounding. But I'm not sure I buy it. For one thing, the Democrat establishment and legal team does not appear to be engaged in an energetic effort to get all the facts and numbers and votes counted. And not much energy seems to be expended by the Kerry-Edwards camp either.

Sad to say, unless there is that "smoking gun" - massive mistakes made in vote-counting, incontrovertible evidence of fraud rather than statistical circumstantial evidence, or a confession by a GOP technician as to how some vote numbers may have been manipulated - Bush will be certified as the 2004 winner.

As to why the Democrats aren't fighting back more openly, I simply don't know the answer. Maybe they believe all the vote-recounts in the various states still won't yield a victory and don't want to appear to be "bad sports" and "obstructionists." Maybe Rove threatened Kerry in some meaningful way that we're not aware of. Maybe the Dems just don't want to play gutter politics, choosing to retain the high moral ground for the next time out, even if they appear weak now. Who knows?

5. THE IRAQ WAR'S INFLUENCE ON ELECTORATE

Much of the public was quite aware of how badly the Bush Administration has botched the Iraq Occupation and how much they were bamboozled into supporting the invasion on phony assertions, but they chose to stay with the devil they know rather than go with a new guy they don't know. (Plus, Kerry had painted himself into a no-wiggle-room corner by having voted for the war-authorization bill, and then saying he would have done the same thing now, even knowing about the lies and miscalulations.)

It's entirely possible, maybe even likely, that Iraq will blow up even more explosively in Bush's face in the next several months, further highlighting the bad policy decisions made, and the incompetence of the neo-con war plan. But Bush, like a huntin' dog on scent, is too arrogant and stubborn to concede that he might have made a mistake, so he'll just continue getting young Americans killed in the service of a disastrous failed policy, and maybe try to save himself by attacking another country - Iran? Syria? Yemen? At which point, conceivably, either he might be impeached by a Congress worried about its re-election chances, or his party voted out of Congressional control in 2006. (Assuming an honest, paper-ballot election.)

Of course, if he were smart - what a concept! - Bush would start devising plans for getting out of Iraq, and engineering a just peace in the Middle East, but he's tied to the neo-con agenda of "changing the geopolitical map" in that area of the world (while controlling the oilfields and establishing military bases there, of course), and to backing Ariel Sharon in whatever he wants to do in the Occupied Territories. So it's unlikely there will be any meaningful breakthroughs on the Palestine/Israel issue, and probably not much positive happening in Iraq. But lots of negative stuff will happen, for sure, including a rise in terrorism directed at Americans and our allies.

Well, Jacqueline and Wolfgang, I hope some of this has helped you understand a bit more about our strange, crazyquilt politics in America right now. It's confusing, I grant you, but don't be too pessimistic; as I wrote last year, things are bound to get worse before they get worse, and then they'll get as bad as they can get, and then the American people will demand major change. Hang in there, and keep on keepin' on.

Your friend,
Bernie

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 04:24 PM
...We also recently recalled a competent if plodding governor and replaced him with another Grade B actor, a former body-builder (Arnold Schwarzenegger).

Calling Grey Davis competent is laughable!

Schwartzenegger has done more during his first YEAR than Davis did in his entire first term.!

AS far as the rest of the world...

We don't give a flying rats ass what you think anyway!

http://onfinite.com/libraries/165559/f6e.jpg

Travh20
11-19-2004, 04:30 PM
secretagentman, your killing me with these pictures, LOL

I think we should break out the violins for the poor europeans who got disefranchised in the last election, and for the idiots who feel they need to explain why their country is screwed up to a bunch of european countries whose standard of living is equal to that in Arkansas

Overdose
11-19-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
We don't give a flying rats ass what you think anyway!


How nationalist are you? That is very ignorant of you, SecretAgentMan. We need allies, we need support and we need world reliability. If we ever encounter a serious issue, or threat, we need to have the Europeans (who you are really referring to) by our side.

Basically, you want to become unilateral. That is a very scary mind-set, one that could lead to the decay of America.

Travh20
11-19-2004, 04:33 PM
do you ever stop whining od?

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
How nationalist are you? That is very ignorant of you, SecretAgentMan. We need allies, we need support and we need world reliability. If we ever encounter a serious issue, or threat, we need to have the Europeans (who you are really referring to) by our side.

Basically, you want to become unilateral. That is a very scary mind-set, one that could lead to the decay of America.

Please...

What the fuck good are the Europeans anyway? they got taken over by a country about the size of Colorado. (WWII)

Screw them, and their "Holier than thou" attitudes.

Overdose
11-19-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
Please...

What the fuck good are the Europeans anyway? they got taken over by a country about the size of Colorado. (WWII)

Screw them, and their "Holier than thou" attitudes.

Ignorance is bliss…

We get food, cars, money, and products from Europe.

If all of America were to have your attitude, we would be in very, very bad shape. You just don't understand basic concepts. Our economy would be crushed, people would be starving...sadly, you don't think that far.

Secondly, the fact is, we need allies in order to fight wars and make our country safer. We all depend on each other. You sadly, don't see it that way, either.

You don't understand that...we need them economically, and militarily.

The only way in which we could fight Iran and other threats, would only be if we had more world support.

Plus, the world will not help us in the future, when we truly need them, if your attitude prevails in America.

Travh20
11-19-2004, 04:47 PM
ya, if europe cut us off we would all starve, whatever man. I think you put the eupropeans and their contributions to america society on a pedestal. they eat and shit just like you OD, they are not some super race. the fact is, if we cut off all relations with europe, they would be fucked, not us. dont forget, we pay farmers to not grow crops, they cant grow enough food to suppot their populations for 5 minutes. dont forget where it is you come from kid

Overdose
11-19-2004, 04:49 PM
Didn't you come from Europe, Trav?

Travh20
11-19-2004, 05:19 PM
no I came from the central coast of california

Overdose
11-19-2004, 05:23 PM
So, that is where your family tree originated? You are Indian, then, I guess.

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
Ignorance is bliss…

We get food, cars, money, and products from Europe.

If all of America were to have your attitude, we would be in very, very bad shape. You just don't understand basic concepts. Our economy would be crushed, people would be starving...sadly, you don't think that far.

Secondly, the fact is, we need allies in order to fight wars and make our country safer. We all depend on each other. You sadly, don't see it that way, either.

You don't understand that...we need them economically, and militarily.

The only way in which we could fight Iran and other threats, would only be if we had more world support.

Plus, the world will not help us in the future, when we truly need them, if your attitude prevails in America.

Umm, right. All I have to say to this is

http://onfinite.com/libraries/165696/4f7.jpg

Travh20
11-19-2004, 05:25 PM
my family has been in this country over 200 years already

Overdose
11-19-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
Umm, right. All I have to say to this is

http://onfinite.com/libraries/165696/4f7.jpg

Nice response. Are you an anti-intellectual?

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
So, that is where your family tree originated? You are Indian, then, I guess.

Oh please... Even the native americans came over from asia on the land-brige that connected what is now Russia and Alaska.

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
Nice response. Are you an anti-intellectual?

Who ever accused you of being an intellectual?

Overdose
11-19-2004, 05:28 PM
Personally, I think Trav's family, for the most part, is very European. I'm just curious...though.

Travh20
11-19-2004, 05:29 PM
if you want to go back, you can go all the way back. if your a creationist, we all came from Eden, which was in modern day iraq, if your a evolutionist, we all came from the great rift valley in east africa.

Overdose
11-19-2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
Who ever accused you of being an intellectual?

Your response was so narrow-minded, it amazes me. You have no idea what would happen if we stopped relations with Europe. You don’t understand that concept, and I would deem you an anti-intellectual for you don’t think things through, or put care into your opinions.

Travh20
11-19-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
Personally, I think Trav's family, for the most part, is very European. I'm just curious...though.


Well, since you are curious, i will tell you. My ancestors are mainly from Germany, with some English thrown in. but my relatives here are from Texas mainly, and I am even related to the great civil war general Stonewall Jackson on my dads moms side

Overdose
11-19-2004, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Travh20
Well, since you are curious, i will tell you. My ancestors are mainly from Germany, with some English thrown in. but my relatives here are from Texas mainly, and I am even related to the great civil war general Stonewall Jackson on my dads moms side

Cool. I'm German and English as well. Well, more-so then any other European cultures.

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
Your response was so narrow-minded, it amazes me. You have no idea what would happen if we stopped relations with Europe. You don’t understand that concept, and I would deem you an anti-intellectual for you don’t think things through, or put care into your opinions.

Right, and you know sooooo much at 15.

I forgot, Teenagers know EVERYTHING!

At least I did when I was a teenager. What about you Trav?

Overdose
11-19-2004, 05:35 PM
Yay! Bringing in the age argument is so wise of you! I’ve heard it a million times, and it proves no point. Debate me on anything…and you’ll find I’m not your average 15 year old. But, if attacking my age, makes you feel as if you are so much smarter then me, so be it. If you pointing out my age, allows you to escape debate and the issues…fine…be that way. It’s only because you are scared of a little 15 year old.

Now come on, how scary can I be! I don’t bite, I promise….

Travh20
11-19-2004, 05:38 PM
ya, when I was 15 I was king shit man, I could do no wrong. DOnt worry about OD, he is the type who will use his age to his advantage. one minute he will be slamming you for bringing up his age the next he will be slamming you for talking to a 15 year old "like that"

Echo2
11-19-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Travh20
if you want to go back, you can go all the way back. if your a creationist, we all came from Eden

If you're a creationist your relatives indulged in incest on a regular basis. Adam and eves children either boinked each other of their parents to produce chidren, who then either boinked their half brothers and sisters or their parents to have children. So if you believer in creationism you belive that our ancestors were immorral hedonists having sex with their siblings and parents.

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
Yay! Bringing in the age argument is so wise of you! I’ve heard it a million times, and it proves no point. Debate me on anything…and you’ll find I’m not your average 15 year old. But, if attacking my age, makes you feel as if you are so much smarter then me, so be it. If you pointing out my age, allows you to escape debate and the issues…fine…be that way. It’s only because you are scared of a little 15 year old.

Now come on, how scary can I be! I don’t bite, I promise….

If you are so good at debate, and you are so smart, when the hell are you going to say some smart shit?

...You have no idea what would happen if we stopped relations with Europe.

Yeah, nothing would happen because we are self sufficient. Anything they produce, we either already produce it, or can produce it. This is why we're a super power!

LionelHutz
11-19-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
Yeah, nothing would happen because we are self sufficient.

Everyone at the European company where I work would lose their jobs. So would a lot of people at Ford, GM, Boeing, yadda yadda yadda.

I completely agree that apologizing to Europe for how we vote is moronic. But so is telling them to go f*ck themselves.

LionelHutz
11-19-2004, 05:53 PM
[having posting issues - repetitious post deleted. nothing to see here, please move along]

Darth Be'lal
11-19-2004, 05:54 PM
Ho boy,

Talk about concentrated bullshit. Do liberals really believe this stuff? My God, no wonder the country is messed up.

The Presidencies. LBJ pleasantly surprised people and "grew" into the Presidency. He's the some-bitch that got us into the Vietnam war (Under false pretenses) that cost 60,000 America. His Administration was so screwed up that he didn't bother trying for a second term.

Bill Clinton: The only thing that people are going to remember about Bill Clinton was Monica Lewisnki. Something did grow while Slick Willie was in the Whitehouse, and it wasn't his Presidency.

Echo2
11-19-2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Overdose
Now come on, how scary can I be! I don’t bite, I promise….

Does nibbling count? lol

It cracks me up watching a fifteen year old debate the pants off you dyed in the whole neocons. If you pulled your heads out of your asses and gave some thought to the issues you are discussing it would make for a better debate. The kids kicking your ass hands down.

You go OD!

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Echo2
Does nibbling count? lol

It cracks me up watching a fifteen year old debate the pants off you dyed in the whole neocons. If you pulled your heads out of your asses and gave some thought to the issues you are discussing it would make for a better debate. The kids kicking your ass hands down.

You go OD!

The only thing the kid is beating right now is his meat...

Echo2
11-19-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
The only thing the kid is beating right now is his meat...

Well now we know were your mind is. Thinking about OD's sexual organs gets you pretty hot doesn't it. And I'll bet making posts about it is a real turn on for you.

SecretAgentMan
11-19-2004, 06:10 PM
http://onfinite.com/libraries/165783/1d1.jpg

Travh20
11-19-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Echo2
If you're a creationist your relatives indulged in incest on a regular basis. Adam and eves children either boinked each other of their parents to produce chidren, who then either boinked their half brothers and sisters or their parents to have children. So if you believer in creationism you belive that our ancestors were immorral hedonists having sex with their siblings and parents.

any chance to rip into god and religion and your all over it like flies on shit

UnCoolDuck
11-20-2004, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by LionelHutz
I completely agree that apologizing to Europe for how we vote is moronic. But so is telling them to go f*ck themselves.

I absolutely agree. All this bunk about boycotting French wine, German beer, and apologizing for the election and calling it a disaster just reinforces the growing negative stereotype about Americans in Europe.

Decka
11-20-2004, 04:19 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

1. Why do you Americans go crazy at times and choose such unqualified (and/or dumb) leaders?
[/QUOTE

-unqualified and dumb leaders?..... who in the hell are you to say whether an american president is qualified? The man's father was president.. so im sure he has a sense of how to do it. So how is George W. dumb? You just said he was 'dumb" and didnt explain why....thats a very "dumb" way to prove a point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

2. How can you Americans be so politically divided right down the middle for such a long time, until it winds up with one or two states being the deciders? Why can't you settle the fight once and for all, or divide your voting blocs proportionally into your Congress, as we do in our countries?
[/QUOTE

ummm because that is the way the united states does elections......why do you europeans still have kings and queens, who are BREEDED into power?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

3. How can you Americans even hope to convince your citizens, and us in other countries, that you have reliable, honest elections when private companies (who have ideological/monetary relationships with one party) manufacture the voting machines, write the secret software that runs them, and, worst of all, have access to the vote-counting tabulation process? Why should anyone accept the legitimacy of those results?
[/QUOTE

why should anyone read newspapers....when they are made by private companies and want a certain party to win......why should anyone buy cars? when they are made by private companies and could make them blow up after 10,000 miles and kill people. Why should anyone watch TV? when the programs on them mindfuck anyone who watches to buy their products?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

4. How come in the last two U.S. presidential elections, even though the final vote was unclear - with hundreds of thousands of ballots still to be counted, amid allegations of fraud - the Democratic candidate meekly conceded and didn't put up any fuss? Doesn't your Opposition party want to win?
[/QUOTE

The final vote was clear both times...the democrats just cannot get over the fact that they lost....and want to cry, wine, moan, bitch, complain, scream, yell, unexcept, and protest all the results....sorry guys, i guess its another 4 years of "hell" of good jobs, a great economy, and food on the table.....DAMN!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

5. How come Bush can win a second term when a substantial majority of the U.S., according to polls, thinks the war in Iraq was a bad idea and won't turn out well at all? The war, as has been demonstrated convincingly by official study after study, was based on the false premises that Iraq possessed huge stockpiles of WMDs and would use them on its neighbors and against the U.S. mainland, and that Saddam was connected to Al Qaida and the 9/11 attacks. Even the Bush Administration eventually had to admit the falsity of those claims, and now your young men and women are being slaughtered, along with more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians. Why elect the man who got you into that mess in the first place?
[/QUOTE

To answer the first part of your question.....i have yet to see a poll where a major majority thinks the iraq war was a "bad idea". Ive seen some close polls......and ive seen some polls that declare going to war was a good idea.....gimme a link.

2nd part: Saddam's failure to let UN inspectors in until he saw fit only confirms his guilt in my opinion. What did he have to hide for so long that it took him so long to allow Inspectors in??? The answer is simple in my opinion...he got rid of the skeletons in his closet....cleaned up the evidence....and then let them in.....and they STILL found munitions that could be used to make WMD's....just no ready-to-fire WMD's.

3rd part: young men and women are being slaughtered because Iraq terrorists are hiding behind them when we fire at them. So that's OUR fault? I dont condone killing innocents...but i think getting rid of this terrorist movement is a worthy cause....and the fact that these people havn't "gotten outta dodge" is either stupidity or they are for the iraqi movement. I wish we could just eliminate the terrorists without ANY innocent casualities...but thats not possible....we can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

4th part: We elected the man who got us into iraq because he wont A. ease up on terrorists.....and B. trust the corrupt UN to protect us.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

1. WHY DO YOU ELECT CLOWNS & DOLTS?

Where I live, in California, we elected a song-and-dance man (George Murphy) and a rabble-rousing university president (S.I. Hawakawa) to be United States Senators, and a Grade B movie actor (Ronald Reagan) to be governor, who then went on to be elected President. We also recently recalled a competent if plodding governor and replaced him with another Grade B actor, a former body-builder (Arnold Schwarzenegger). Minnesota recently had a professional wrestler for governor (Jesse Ventura).

Americans have elected would-be dictators as President (Richard Nixon, George W. Bush).

We have passed on clearly highly-qualified candidates (Adlai Stevenson, for one) and had to endure dolts and mediocrities (Gerald Ford, George H.W. Bush).

On the other hand, we have elected those from whom we weren't expecting all that much (Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton), only to be pleasantly surprised with how they grew into the job, despite their tragic flaws and policies of great error.

So, as you can see, we Americans exhibit absolutely no consistency with regard to the person we elect as President. And their election often has little to do with their innate intelligence, or lack thereof.

I think what you're really asking is how, having watched for four years as George W. Bush has disgraced the presidency and demonstrated his inability to rise to the occasion, we could have elected this guy.
[/QUOTE

disgraced the presidency???? LOL...protecting america is disgracing the presidency???? George bush is GUILTY of disgrace if protecting american is a disgrace. Its clear the writer of this is out for blood....and only wants to splash blood and mud onto bush's name....nothing more. Sorry your liberal friends didnt win...maybe you can still make money somehow OTHER than saddam.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

Virtually all of the presidents mentioned above behaved civily to their political opponents. (Nixon was an exception: dirty tricks to win election, compiling an "enemies" list to punish, heinous felonies.) And the mass media were much more investigatory and independent.

But the hard-right, which cares not a fig for democratic institutions - other than in how it can manipulate them - decided to forego civility and go for total annihilation of their opposition. Right-wing billionaires established think-tanks, bought up and founded mass-media outlets (national radio talk shows, cable TV shows, Fox News, et al.), spent millions on training college-age Republicans, etc. That hard-right infrastructure was in place for nearly 15 years or more, and is getting stronger, especially given its current tight alliances with the fundamentalist/evangelical churches.
[/QUOTE

LMAO!!!! the LIBERALS are crying about MEDIA!!!!!! why dont you mention CBS, NBC, ABC, moveon.org, etc......its CLEAR that 70% of media is liberal...so quite crying. And if one media outlet trained college aged kids....it was MTV training mindless, unvoting teens to go vote for kerry by ripping bush and exaulting Kerry as a god. I saw it ALL the time.....it was disgusting.....MTV tried to get a new president to fit their liberal agenda.....and they lost. So go suck it MTV, and the writer of this article can go take their Liberal trained ear and suck it too..... lol

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

The Democrats, meanwhile, still dreaming of their glory days in the ascendancy decades before, were essentially clueless about what was happening beneath the radar - and even when the hard-right boasted loudly of their plans, they still didn't get it.

Day-by-day or every four years?

The Republicians view the political war as ongoing, day-by-day building their fortress stronger, whereas the Democrats treat politics as a once-every-two-or-four-year battle. No wonder they continually get their butts stomped, even when the public in so many areas of policy agrees more with their domestic programs. (Plus, the Democrats have yet to figure out how to both maintain the moral high ground and fight back against the GOP's cutthroat brand of politics.)
[/QUOTE

So you admitted that the democrats dont care about politics....but i dont see it that way. The democrats CARE about politics....they HATE bush....with a passion ive never seen before. the writer is only about ripping republicans and being nice to democrats....its obvious this writer has a liberal agenda. The democrats were caught MULTIPLE times of dirty play.....yet are being seen as the high ground by this writer.....amazing!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

In short, the Karl Roves in that hard-right world figured out how to use the conglomerate-owned mass media and the "religious" right-wing to their advantage, while the Democrats tend not to get in gear until late in the election game - too late, as it turns out.
[/QUOTE

Oh...so the democrats didnt win because they didnt "get it in gear".....haha....either that or they just lost...and cut all the BS excuses.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

One more thing: so many Americans lead circumscribed lives of quiet desperation, just trying to get by economically and deal with the fast-moving social and cultural changes that are going on. They look for someone to lead them through the chaos and confusion. This helps explain, as in Muslim cultures as well, the pull of religious fundamentalism and the desire for a theocracy.

Those with simple answers, simple slogans, name-recognition, and celebrity, tap into this social phenomenon; those who "do" nuance, who understand complexity, who listen to what reality is telling them, tend to be dismissed (Stevenson, Kerry). Hence, George W. Bush - who thinks with his "gut," exhibits no curiosity, admits no mistakes, you "know where he stands" - is able to lead so many down the greased ramp toward an incipient American fascism.
[/QUOTE

so we should vote for someone who doesnt know where he stands? The writer is clearly anti-religious..and only sees religion as a form of mind-control. in a secular world that is probably true...but sorry guys. God is real......his presence is proven scientifically as well as by millions of personal testimonies. Its easy to blame religion as the reason bush won....but you can also say this......america HAS spoken.....quite wining you cry-baby libs.....you are wasting oxygen and media print.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

The hard-right has been able to subtly shift the voting public's attention away from economic issues - i.e., those that truly and often negatively affect their daily lives - to a kind of cultural class struggle, fanning the flames of fright against enemies they don't know but fear greatly (homosexuals, immigrants, secularists, et al).
[/QUOTE

i dont fear homosexuals.....ive met a few and they are nice people....of what ive seen. I just dont see why something so clearly DEFINED as MAN AND WOMAN should be changed?....And with all the talk about no jobs....why should we allow immigrants in to take them? And secularists?....is there ANYTHING WRONG with religious morals? or do you just rebel against them because you can....whats wrong with not murdering, not stealing, not commiting adultery, not being vile and rude, not thinking bad thoughts????

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2


2. ABOUT THAT GREAT POLITICAL DIVIDE

The political divide is strong, immense and real. It seems fairly constant, not destined to disappear anytime soon.

If you examine it closely, you can see that the coastal states and those with huge population centers tend to be more liberal, secular, diverse, well-educated, in touch with foreign cultures. Those internal states, among them the once solid (Democratic) South, are less diverse, more religiously-affililiated, less conversant with the larger world beyond our borders.
[/QUOTE

the huge poplutation centers also have a HIGH rate of unemployed and uneducated people. the stats say black people are high in both these categories....and the stats ALSO say that 90% of blacks voted for Kerry......so 1+1+1= the people who are more UNeducated are more favorable for media outlets to get a vote for their man Kerry. This writer is CLEARLy bias in my opinon.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Echo2

Those are generalizations; larger metropolitan areas within the internal ("red") states, and those which house major universities, tend to resemble the coastal ("blue") outlook and attitudes. Indeed, what has to be understood is that Bush didn't "sweep" all those red states by huge margins; many of those states are split down the middle as well - often described, in color terms, as neither wholly red nor blue but "purple."
[/QUOTE

um i only say iowa as the ONLY one that was close...and that didnt even matter....this writer has no clue what he's talking about. and to explain his crumbled theory....big cities=more people in need of handouts=democrat votes....people who want to live off the gov't.

dammit....i accidentally deleted the rest of the post by trying to divide it into two posts because i couldnt fit it all onto one.....it took me forever....i really dont feel like doing it again....i could cry about it...but ill accept that i lost this fight...i just liberals could do the same.

astrapol2
11-20-2004, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Echo2
George W. Bush - who thinks with his "gut," exhibits no curiosity, admits no mistakes, you "know where he stands"

Great definition of many republican supporters on this forum !

Now - a few data to raise the level of this debate.

(http://www.eurolegal.org/uspoleur.shtml)

It is in the long-term interest of both the United States of America and the European Union to draw ever closer and co-operate.


Basic statistics say a lot about the importance of the two Unions in economic and geopolitical terms.


The United States and the European Union enjoy the world’s largest commercial relationship and are each other’s largest trade and investment partners. In 2002, EU-15 exports to the United States were estimated at $227.9 billions, representing 24.1% of total EU-15 exports._ EU-15 imports from the United States totalled $166.1 billions, representing 17.7% of total EU-15 imports.


EU investment in the US has grown steadily; in 2002, EU direct investment in the US amounted to $863 billions. EU and US foreign affiliates each employ about 4 million people in the US and European Union, respectively. Similarly, US direct investment in the EU amounted to $700 billions.


Those figures will grow now that the European Union has grown from 15 states to 25.


Our two economies are interdependent to a high degree. Close to a quarter of all US-EU trade consists of transactions within firms based on their investments on either side of the Atlantic. The transatlantic relationship defines the shape of the global economy as a whole, given that the EU and the US are also the largest trade and investment partners for almost all other countries.

The European Union and United States Compared


[these statistics need adjustment to account for EU enlargement]

Population (Millions)

EU 376
USA 273

GDP (Billions of Euro)


EU 7,809
USA 8,729

GDP per capita (Euro)

EU 20,800
USA 31,987


Exports of Goods and Services (Billions of Euro)
EU 988
USA 862


Imports of Goods and Services (Billions of Euro)

EU 952
USA 1,132

Trade Surplus (Deficit) (Billions of Euro)

EU36
USA (-270)


Exports as Share of World Exports

EU 20%
USA 18%


Imports as Share of World Imports
EU19%
USA 22%


Foreign Aid to Third World in 1997 (Millions of US Dollars)


EU: 31,873
USA : 6,878
(sources: Eurostat/IMF/WTO)


United States Defence Expenditure 2001 (source: NATO) US$ millions
305,886

European NATO Defence Expenditure 2001 (source NATO) US$ Millions
158,957

Notes:


1._ The EU as presently constituted has a bigger share of world trade than the USA._ That difference will grow bigger with EU enlargement in 2004._ However, while the US runs an international trade deficit, the EU runs a trade surplus._ The fact that the USA now has to negotiate on international trade with the EU as a single entity and can no longer pick off individual countries is a source of irritation in some US quarters.


2.__ The USA is the world's only remaining military superpower and spends much more on defence than do the European members of NATO._ This is a major source of US criticism of the European countries.


3.__ On the other hand, the EU spends 4.5 times as much as the USA on foreign aid._ Europeans would argue that this is a far better way of assuring world stability than does excessive spending on more military might than is actually needed to ensure world peace.

TheGreat Gatsby
11-20-2004, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Overdose
How nationalist are you? That is very ignorant of you, SecretAgentMan. We need allies, we need support and we need world reliability. If we ever encounter a serious issue, or threat, we need to have the Europeans (who you are really referring to) by our side.

Basically, you want to become unilateral. That is a very scary mind-set, one that could lead to the decay of America.

Exactly which Europeans are you referring to? England? Poland? Belgium? They were with us.

We need allies like France, Germany, and Russia like we all need a raspberry colonic.

Liberals are already decaying America with socialism, the pushing of immoral behavior, etc.

astrapol2
11-20-2004, 09:05 AM
talking about immoral behaviour, how do you call attacking a country that did not threaten you ?

Travh20
11-20-2004, 09:29 AM
how do you feel about not attacking a country that kicked your ass? damn french can lecture us about war like we can lecture them about nationalized health

LionelHutz
11-20-2004, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by TheGreat Gatsby
We need allies like France, Germany, and Russia like we all need a raspberry colonic.

Well, they buy stuff from us for one thing . . .

Besides, I'd like to be able to buy a Porsche some day.

Lungdop Philing
11-20-2004, 10:35 AM
Thanks for the EU/USA comparison post Astra ...

Very interesting.

Dop

DaveTooner
11-20-2004, 10:58 AM
This is all just a bunch of doom and gloom muckedymuck. "Oh no, if we don't do what the French and Germans want, we'll never be able to buy or sell anything and we'll all be in the soup lines." The sky is really falling, huh?

DaveTooner
11-20-2004, 10:59 AM
And another thing - if the French, Germans, or Russians broke off ties with the US in the form of trade... that would hurt them more than it would hurt us, so I seriously doubt that will happen. Take heart, libs, it isn't as gloomy as you think.

Lungdop Philing
11-20-2004, 11:10 AM
Do you have any evidence or a link to show we would be hurt less than the EU if relations break off?

And do you have any idea what you are talking about?

If we break off relations with *ANY* of our major trading partners, it would not be good for us -- the dollar will no longer be the major currency for commodities such as oil. The world would switch to the EU, same as saddam did (man he payed the price for doing that -- LOL) and US bonds would go into a fire sale.

I strongly suggest you spend less time listening to Rush and bone up on world economics.

Dop

DaveTooner
11-20-2004, 11:12 AM
Do you have any evidence ... we would be hurt worse than the EU if relations break off?


Did I say that?

Lungdop Philing
11-20-2004, 11:17 AM
It reads correctly now

On edit ... here's a gem of wisdom from bush's bytch greenspan.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=509&e=3&u=/ap/20041119/ap_on_bi_ge/greenspan

Does this guy actually think he has to warn us of the coming train wreck? Does he really think we're too stupid to figure it out on our own? Does he actually think anyone cares what he says?

And if it's such hot news, why didn't he say this before the election -- at that time he's telling us the economy is the best in 20 years and there is no unemployment and deficit is good and all the other gop bull.

Send this guy to Sacramento to brainstorm with my local economic genius -- arnold who just this morning said in response to the proposition to tax drivers by mileage ...

paraphrased .. I heard about that but don't know what it means so I have to sit down and think about it.

WTF? I know 4th graders that are more intelligent -- and we want this guy to be president?

Dop

astrapol2
11-20-2004, 12:22 PM
Sooner or later the world could get tired of financing the USA's chronical deficit. The USA have been living for years way over its real income - but since a collapse of the US ecenomy would be bad news for the rest of the world, nobody tries to change this.

Travh20
11-20-2004, 01:09 PM
OK france, when your standard of living gets above that of the state of Arkansas give us a call. then maybe we will listen to you, until then your mastery of economics and government leaves a lot to be desired.

Lungdop Philing
11-20-2004, 01:26 PM
I tend to believe there are already plans in the works to bring down the US economically even at the cost of hurting the participating nations. The alternative is to let the neocon US continue on with nothing in it's way until it unleashes it's bombs and armies on any country that gets in it's way -- including the EU states and particularily France.

France already knows (or should know) what unmanagable debt can do to a country. Louie (16th?) and his deficit brought france to the point of bankruptcy which was clearly one of the causes of the french revolution (among many others causes). The US will probably not fare much better.

Dop

Travh20
11-20-2004, 01:57 PM
ya dop, they have a plan to bring down the US ready to go. we all know the evil neocons are the biggest threat in the world. :rolleyes: wake up man, your so far out there your not even on the radar anymore.

Lungdop Philing
11-20-2004, 02:14 PM
Actually trav, in my world, that's a compliment.

Thanks

Dop

Travh20
11-20-2004, 02:20 PM
alrighty then

astrapol2
11-20-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
I tend to believe there are already plans in the works to bring down the US economically even at the cost of hurting the participating nations. The alternative is to let the neocon US continue on with nothing in it's way until it unleashes it's bombs and armies on any country that gets in it's way -- including the EU states and particularily France.


I don't think so. Our economies depend too much from the USA and most of all of the dollar to allow such a plan. It would cause a major economic collapse.

LionelHutz
11-20-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Travh20
OK france, when your standard of living gets above that of the state of Arkansas give us a call.

What the hell are you talking about?

Lungdop Philing
11-20-2004, 05:08 PM
Sounds reasonable astra but don't rule out the EURO becoming the currency of choice some day.

Dop

Travh20
11-20-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by LionelHutz
What the hell are you talking about?

I saw a study one time that showed that france's standard of living was about equal with that of the lowest of US States, like those in the deep south.

Freethinker
11-20-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
I tend to believe there are already plans in the works to bring down the US economically even at the cost of hurting the participating nations. The alternative is to let the neocon US continue on with nothing in it's way until it unleashes it's bombs and armies on any country that gets in it's way --

***Let the Neo-Con US unleash it's bombs on any country that gets in it's way....**------------------------??!?

They're going to do it anyway.

It's already happening.