How do you feel about this?
NYP

August 31, 2002 -- WASHINGTON - The California atheist who sued to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance now wants to kick the House and Senate chaplains out of Congress.
Michael Newdow, a lawyer and emergency-room doctor, this week filed suit in federal district court in Washington arguing that it is unconstitutional for taxpayer-funded chaplains to pray in Congress and minister to lawmakers.

He wants the court to prohibit the House and Senate from employing spiritual chaplains, who are paid by Congress to lead prayers, counsel members and perform other religious tasks.

"If congressmen want to go to church, [then] walk down the block like other Americans do and go to church," Newdow said in an interview.

"Don't get my government engaged in it. There are some people who don't love God Almighty. That's why we have an Establishment Clause," the constitutional ban on government establishment of an official religion.

I could careless I don't say the pledge anyway so it does'nt bother me. If a Buddist recites the pledge and wants to put one nation under budda well than let him do that. If an Athiest wants to skip that part so be it. If a Christian wants to say under god well than who cares.

I heard about this on the radio Sunday, and I think that Newdow brings up some excellent points. When he said, "If congressmen want to go to church, [then] walk down the block like other Americans do and go to church." He was entirely correct. If I want spiritual guidance, I don't expect my place of work to pay for and get it for me.

According to NPR, Newdow also said that he would not support it if the government were to bring in spiritual leaders from other religions to come and help/guide elected officials. So, he seems to be pretty even that his point is not to attack Christianity, it is to make sure that the line that seperates church and state remains clear.

During the last media frenzy that followed the debate over the Pledge, I was shocked at how few people knew the history of their Pledge of Allegiance. The "under God" line was not added until the 1950's. It hasn't always been there. I also agree that a teacher should not be leading children in prayer, and I think that includes leading a class in the Pledge.

An interesting editorial about this can be found at http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499

In the end nothing will change....the pledge will remain the same....the man fighting it will have to pay his lawyers and life will continue....If someone wants to say the word god or substitute it does not harm anyone at anytime....

What I cannot comprehend, ya'll, is why having the word God in the P of A such a huge deal? Believe what you want, but, when you try to change what has worked for this nation for nearly four centuries, you are barking up the wrong tree. :shock: I'm a Southern Baptist myself, but, I have no qualms with the Pledge of Allegiance, never have, never will. Do you all realize if the citizens back in the time when the original thirteen colonies came to be had the same mentality as today's hi-tech spoiled, self-centered, PC-conscious generation 'Y' (Why this, why that?), we would have lost that war against England. Leather-up posters, we have worse things to worry about than what's in the P of A. 8)

You act like "under god" has always been in the pledge but if I remember correctly it was added in 1953 so the pledge has been changed so I can't understand your argument. If it has previously been changed than perhaps we can change it again.

I also don't recall any of are founding fathers to be Christians many of them were Deist, Atheist, or Agnostics. I don't think Deist or Agnostics care to much for God so I don't think they would set aside time to write God in the pledge.

I think we should do away with the pledge until we fix some problems in our nation such as corporate greed, racism, sexism, homophobia, and war along with many other problems that plague our society and until then I don't plan on raising my fist in the name of a piece of fabric and reciting a stupid poem.

Here's a thought, why don't you try living in another country, like Cuba, Russia, or North Korea and see what happens when you exercise the freedom of expression you apparently take for granted in this awesome nation. You'll either wind up a political prisoner or publicly executed for being a threat to that country's government even if you really are not. [i:e785173222] I respectfully recommend you count your blessings CONFUSED YOUTH[/i:e785173222]. The 'Under God' phrase is not so objectionable considering the liberties we are allowed as American citizens. 8)

Go wave your flag and tell the people who can't feed there children or can't get health care or can't go to school that there free. Go tell a gay person there free but you run around and use the word fag. Go tell black men there free but people still use racial slurs. Freedom yeah i have some do other nah...

[quote:a65e568e72="ConfusedYouth"]Go wave your flag and tell the people who can't feed there children or can't get health care or can't go to school that there free. Go tell a gay person there free but you run around and use the word fag. Go tell black men there free but people still use racial slurs. Freedom yeah i have some do other nah...[/quote:a65e568e72]

That is the most moronic thing I have EVER heard. What rights do I have, as a middle class white male, that poor people, gays, and blacks do not? Pathetic.

The fact is if we are so free than why do children go hungry? If people of this nation is so free how come people die because they can't get proper health care? If we are so free how come people cant afford schooling? If we are so free how come we have homeless? If we are so free than why do some kids wear the same clothes 5 days a week? If we are so free than why do we have so many who cant find jobs? If we are so free than why do we have racism? Sexism? Homophobia?

We need to fix all that I'm not proud of it why should you be?

[quote:d92a5c8b57="ConfusedYouth"]The fact is if we are so free than why do children go hungry? If people of this nation is so free how come people die because they can't get proper health care? If we are so free how come people cant afford schooling? If we are so free how come we have homeless? If we are so free than why do some kids wear the same clothes 5 days a week? If we are so free than why do we have so many who cant find jobs? If we are so free than why do we have racism? Sexism? Homophobia?

We need to fix all that I'm not proud of it why should you be?[/quote:d92a5c8b57]

Who said I was proud of it?

Look, these things have nothing to do with freedom, so I really am missing your point. You think if we were free, no one would be poor, racist, sexist, homeless, or uneducated. That is absoultely insane.

Answer my question: What rights do homeless, poor, black, or gay people not have that I do have?

Infect you prove my point the rich have the freedom or proper health care, schooling, housing along with enough food to feed there children, a safe place to live, proper clothing, and many more things. Corporate greed is leaving many jobless and many hardworking Americans can't find jobs and have left there homes behind. Free to let children strave? Free to make people pay for school? Free to make people pay for health care? Free to leave people jobless? Thanks America thank you!

Whether you like it or not racism still exist which still oppresses the freedoms of blacks and people of other races. Same goes with sexism and homophobia along with a list of other things.

Before we go worshiping a flag and singing a poem perhaps we should fix these problems before we run around proud!

"no nations, no boarders, no flags, no patriots"

Look, the amount of freedom that you have comes from how many rights you have. Poor people, black people, gay people, and homeless people all have the same rights as me, a middle class white. Sorry, but just because you are poor, that does not mean you don't have rights.

You're right, racism exists, but 95% of the people in the United States are not racist. One of my best friends is black, and she has never complained about racism, my roomate is black, and I have never heard him complain about racism. You act like blacks can't walk down the street without being spat on.

[quote:0fb3618544="ConfusedYouth"]Go wave your flag and tell the people who can't feed there children or can't get health care or can't go to school that there free. Go tell a gay person there free but you run around and use the word fag. Go tell black men there free but people still use racial slurs. Freedom yeah i have some do other nah...[/quote:0fb3618544]


Not a high school graduate, are you? :wink: [i:0fb3618544][b:0fb3618544]Get up off of your dead asses and VOTE if you don't like how things are run in this country! If that isn't enough, run for office! I will when I'm done wearing the old battle fatigues. Don't snivel and cry about what's wrong with this country and come up with a solution to fix the problem instead of adding to it with your whining.[/b:0fb3618544][/i:0fb3618544] :idea:

I finished high school like a 3.5 what did you finish with? I voted in the last election and my ideas are to radical to even attempt to run for office. I'm also to young and I don't have enough money for a campaign.

You don't know me what you don't know is I spent two months working for organizations that make changes for free! I write essays to get my opinion out and I have given solutions but they seem to be laughed at every time I bring them up. I also protest when I get a chance in all this I work two jobs so that I can get a proper education.

I'm glad your friend has never dealt with racism but many people still do. People still die because of there race. A friend of mine was talking to a foreigner outside a store one day a couple of kids decided to attack them luckily they got away in time. Even if it is right 5% is still to much!

The fact is how can you be proud of a country when people still go to bed hungry and can't afford proper health care and can't pay for proper schooling and live on the street and people are jobless due to corporate greed? We need to fix these problems!

FYI Genius! I [i:e51936c1e1]am[/i:e51936c1e1] Black (actually Suisse Mocha, but, close enough) and I am from [b:e51936c1e1]ALABAMA! [/b:e51936c1e1] :shock: [b:e51936c1e1]You don't think I've dealt with racism?[/b:e51936c1e1] :? Get a clue! I have an Associate Arts in Engineering and a Bachelor of Arts in Pschycology. I'm 30 years old! [b:e51936c1e1]and for a 3.5 GPA, you are a terrible speller with sub-standard grammar skills.[/b:e51936c1e1] I have eleven years in the military with nine more until I hit twenty and then I'm hitting the campaign trail for office with a few of my comrades in arms. DUDE! Are you [b:e51936c1e1]that[/b:e51936c1e1] self-involved to think that nobody else [i:e51936c1e1]on this earth [/i:e51936c1e1] has dealt with race discrimination, rejection or been laughed at? Your self-esteem is in need of a serious overhaul. Get with the program Confused Youth and stop feeling sorry for yourself! :shock:

I don't take great pride in my write as I'm writing on a free forum as a way to kill time! I spell check my work every time so I don't misspell often! I’m sorry I'm 18 years old and I work two jobs and barely get by because mommy and daddy don't care if I go to school or not or live in sub-standard conditions. I don’t ever complain about working two jobs I just do it so that may be I can get in to at least a four year college.

Like I said I joke with my friends all the time in fact we always put each other down it's great fun. We are all great humored we love to laugh it gets us through hard times together. We relize that this joking can't be presented outside our group for it may offend others.

I just happen to be a straight middle class pale white kid who looks like he belongs in Norway. I’ve never felt rejection that others have and I hope never to go through what many do. I’ve never dealt with racial discrimination (like you) or sexual discrimination (like womyn) but still I continue to speak out against it the best I can.

Eighteen? Hmm...well, I remember what it was like to be your age, but, my parents could not afford to send me to school (four brothers and one sister and I'm the #3 son). However, they gave me all the encouragement I needed to make do with what I have, so I joined the military in 1991, right before the Gulf War. The military gave me funding for 75% of my college tuition, not to mention a lifetime education in human relations and world-wide travel my boys back home could never have dreamed of. Most of the Joes and Janes I hang out with are Hispanic and Caucasion. They are a lot of laughs. I'm not suggesting that the military is a way to pay for college, but, so much more goes along with it, Dude. Think about it, I'd say you would be a good candidate for M.I. :o

I will not join an organization that condones killing so that I can get decent schooling. I'd rather have no education at all. I'm a proud Pacifist by heart and only will continue to be one.

I've also known people to join the military because they could not get funds to get proper education. I hate the fact people must kill and risk there lives so they can get into a four year college. No one should need to join a killing force so they could get into school. We should have free schooling for all indeed it would cause taxes to raise but we could put them on beer or cigarettes and it would not bother a majority of our population and perhaps it would lower the chances that people would smoke or drink and it would be nothing but positive.

I've never killed anybody in combat, nor have I had the desire to. Keep in mind how many organizations kill for their cause besides the U.S. Military; most of those organizations are [b:4a01aa7a3a]religious[/b:4a01aa7a3a]. The military does more than just fight wars; they save lives in time of natural disasters such as tornado's, earthquakes, and hurricanes. We assist the Red Cross in their mission. We are also active in the rebuilding of eco-systems (Fort Irwin is not just a training facility, it's also a wildlife preserve), and educating America's youth on staying out of a life of crime and being active in their community. I recommend you do a little more research on us G.I. Joes and G.I. Janes there, Dude. :wink: But, you're young yet. You have plenty of time to get old and bitter when you're my age. :)

I'd love to join an organization that did all those things but the bottom line is it's still affilitated with the fact you might go to war in which I can't do.

I would like to debate this issue instead of attacking people or showing off my so-called degrees and age. I don't need that type of validation from online personalities.

For Sokol, who said that he/she didn't understand why God should be removed from the Pledge, please allow me to ask, why should God be included in it? Not everyone in America believes in God. "Under God" was only added to the Pledge due to fear of the Cold War because, according to Eisenhower "communists are Godless." BTW, Eisenhower did not actually become a Christian himself until toward the end of his second term.

Politics in action lead to God being included in the Pledge. Why do you think that is okay? Also, Eisenhower said (this is not a direct quote -- I'm going by memory) after adding the "godly" line to the Pledge, "[that] Now not only will school children say the Pledge of Allegiance to their country, but they will also be giving praise to the All Mighty." Now tell me it wasn't meant as a prayer!

[quote:abf802af54="DaveTooner"]Look, the amount of freedom that you have comes from how many rights you have. Poor people, black people, gay people, and homeless people all have the same rights as me, a middle class white. Sorry, but just because you are poor, that does not mean you don't have rights.[/quote:abf802af54]

I agree with much of what you have said on this thread (believe it or not :D). However, I must add that until Gays can marry and have protection from losing their jobs due to their sexuality, they do not share the same rights and freedoms as you and I.

I also must say that I do not share in your feeling that 95% of Americans are not racists. Sadly, I don't know anyone who does not carry around some sort of prejudice and bias in their daily dealings.

[quote:2c1355f186="ConfusedYouth"]I'd love to join an organization that did all those things but the bottom line is it's still affilitated with the fact you might go to war in which I can't do.[/quote:2c1355f186]

Been there, done that. It's a dog and pony show, complete with expensive lighting effects to amuse the locals. [i:2c1355f186]The media have to sell stories, otherwise they don't get ratings and pats on the back from ungrateful media moguls that are wallowing in their own filth and obesity because they don't exercise and they're usually high on crack (the price you pay for having too much money and not enough gainful employment).[/i:2c1355f186] After the ground war in February of 1991, we had 175,000 EPW's. We gave them medical attention, clothes, food, and let them call their families to let them know they were alive and well. After the cease-fire, they were shipped back to their families and an ungrateful dog of a dictator that we are still having to deal with because [i:2c1355f186]somebody[/i:2c1355f186] didn't think it prudent to nuke his sorry ass! :x Now his son has the task of cleaning up the political, and moral, mess his father left behind when he was voted out of office in 1992. If you do not think America is worth fighting for in order to keep her citizens free from tyrants and communists, I recommend you find yourself a nice cave to live in, or Amish Community. I hear they live pretty well without technology, but, I'm happy where I am. :wink:

We can do what many European nations do or we can also look at Canada in which they never have threats much like the United States does. We try to police the world and it makes others angry a long with many other things that I dont feel like listing.

I don't know about Sokol, but I graduated with a 4.0. I just received a BS in computer science from Hawaii Pacific University. I chose to join the military after high school because I was and still am free to make that choice. I joined because I believed it was a greater good. The great thing about this country is you don't have to see it that way. You can believe the military is a bunch of baby-killing facists if you want. That is freedom. Freedom has nothing to do with health care, it has nothing to do with skin color. In fact freedom, by definition, has no boundries. If you seriously believe we as Americans are not better off as a whole than eneyone else ever, you are more confused than you know. I don't believe any one should tell you what to believe, and in this country, no one has that right. I don't believe any one should tell you "if you don't like it, leave". Go right ahead and exercize your right to freedom. But do it with some respect because if you were born 35 miles south of my house in San Diego, you wouldn't have that right. Exercize it because people like me will always be here to defend that right with our lives if need be. Because we are free to chose to.

[quote:31e37c9bdd]Not everyone in America believes in God.[/quote:31e37c9bdd]

Not everyone in America believes in democratic points of view, not everyone believes in republican points of view, yet these people are still elected to be president. You cannot please everyone. I bet if we put this God thing to a vote, the majority of the people wouldn't want it removed.

[quote:31e37c9bdd="J_Lively"]
I agree with much of what you have said on this thread (believe it or not :D). However, I must add that until Gays can marry and have protection from losing their jobs due to their sexuality, they do not share the same rights and freedoms as you and I.

I also must say that I do not share in your feeling that 95% of Americans are not racists. Sadly, I don't know anyone who does not carry around some sort of prejudice and bias in their daily dealings.[/quote:31e37c9bdd]

Gays do have the same rights. They have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex, just like I do. I don't have the right to marry my best friend Al (not that I want to), just like any gay male can't marry another man. The laws apply to everyone not just gays.

Instead of leaving "one nation under God" in the pledge I think we should make it say "one nation under ______" . And the Christians can say "one nation under god" the Buddhist can say "one nation under Buddha" and so on.

If gays have the same rights than how come a gay couple in Florida is at threat of losing there children due to there sexual preference? In many states gay marriage is still outlawed and looked down upon same with gay adoption. Gays don’t have many rights when it comes to those few things.

[quote:1ffa09a63f="ConfusedYouth"]Instead of leaving "one nation under God" in the pledge I think we should make it say "one nation under ______" . And the Christians can say "one nation under god" the Buddhist can say "one nation under Buddha" and so on.

If gays have the same rights than how come a gay couple in Florida is at threat of losing there children due to there sexual preference? In many states gay marriage is still outlawed and looked down upon same with gay adoption. Gays don’t have many rights when it comes to those few things.[/quote:1ffa09a63f]

But I can't marry another man either. Rights are equal.

It's a violation of gay right now to allow them to marry. We wave our flags and tell people there free but when it comes to sexuality it seems to be a crime when a man is in love with a man. If we are so free than why cant men marry men and womyn marry womyn? Thats not freedom it's opression!

[quote:238cf73ebd="ConfusedYouth"]It's a violation of gay right now to allow them to marry. We wave our flags and tell people there free but when it comes to sexuality it seems to be a crime when a man is in love with a man. If we are so free than why cant men marry men and womyn marry womyn? Thats not freedom it's opression![/quote:238cf73ebd]

No, it isn't a crime... that just isn't what marriage is. Marriage is a legal bond between a MAN and a WOMAN. There is something that gay people can get... like a life partership or something like that. Not sure how many states recognize it but I think a fair amount do.

Who died and gave you the right to make the rules of marriage? If a gay couple loves each other dearly they have the right to marry. We live in a "free" nation and with that it should give freedom rights to gay and lesbian couples or its a prime example of oppression.

[quote:75a5cb7549="DaveTooner"]
Gays do have the same rights. They have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex, just like I do. I don't have the right to marry my best friend Al (not that I want to), just like any gay male can't marry another man. The laws apply to everyone not just gays.[/quote:75a5cb7549]

Well, let's avoid that issue then. Although, there is quite a difference in the fact that you can choose to marry someone you love and gay man or woman can not. That does not, at all, equal same rights to me. Free country!? Yeah, right....

In many states, too many, gays can not adopt -- this is a right, like many in my opinion, that you have that gays are denied.

Also, I agree with you on the Pledge issue that you can't please everyone. However, public schools are meant to be for everyone (that is the ideal, anyway). Having teachers or any other school official calling ours "one nation under God" is allowing a government funded school to teach that there is a God. I can definitely see how many parents could have a problem with this. The mention of God has, sadly, turned our Pledge into a prayer.

[quote:185e256418="DaveTooner"]No, it isn't a crime... that just isn't what marriage is. Marriage is a legal bond between a MAN and a WOMAN. There is something that gay people can get... like a life partership or something like that. Not sure how many states recognize it but I think a fair amount do.[/quote:185e256418]

Actually, in many states there are still sodomy laws on the books. Also, gays could legally be prosecuted with adultry laws that are still active in many states.

And there are only a few states that allow civil unions between gay partners. Civil unions are not tax deductable like marriage, and are not as binding.

Why is marriage only meant to be between a man and a woman? It may tradition, but traditions change all the time because society outgrows them. I can't support taditions like this that only hold us back.

i think [color=#ffff2d:4020433b92][/color:4020433b92]g[color=#0000ff:4020433b92][/color:4020433b92]a[color=#ff001b:4020433b92][/color:4020433b92]y[color=#00ff00:4020433b92][/color:4020433b92]s should be able to marry, why not? can someone tell me this? :?

[quote:b408fe559e]Actually, in many states there are still sodomy laws on the books. Also, gays could legally be prosecuted with adultry laws that are still active in many states. [/quote:b408fe559e]

These laws are no longer used however. If a couple was taken to court on the basis of these laws, it would be thrown out in an instant. Gays wouldn't "come out" if it put them in legal danger.

Sorry it has taken me so long to make it back here. I know that messes with the flow of the conversation, so please, excuse me.

I must, however, point out that you are wrong about sodomy laws no longer being enforced. They are still used in my state, but are always accompanied by another crime such as rape or public lewdness. That is not because the laws aren't used, it is because they are so difficult to prove without another crime.

They should not be on the books anymore... never should have been really.

[quote:a77d15e697="J_Lively"]Sorry it has taken me so long to make it back here. I know that messes with the flow of the conversation, so please, excuse me.

I must, however, point out that you are wrong about sodomy laws no longer being enforced. They are still used in my state, but are always accompanied by another crime such as rape or public lewdness. That is not because the laws aren't used, it is because they are so difficult to prove without another crime.

They should not be on the books anymore... never should have been really.[/quote:a77d15e697]

You are kidding me right? I have NEVER heard of anyone being charged with this.

It is common here. You mean you never read in your paper that someone is being tried on rape and sodomy charges? Perhaps in your state these laws have been done away with... if so, that's a good thing.

[quote:dc63e39578="J_Lively"]It is common here. You mean you never read in your paper that someone is being tried on rape and sodomy charges? Perhaps in your state these laws have been done away with... if so, that's a good thing.[/quote:dc63e39578]

Never