I'm not sure if you guys have heard yet, but in Falluja, Iraq, several US soldiers stormed a building and discovered several dead bodies in the building. Apon checking the bodies, one soldier discovered that a person was still alive but unconcience (can't spell that word). He alerted his team and said "One's still breathing here" or something like that. One of the soldiers walk over to the person on the ground, aimed his rifle and shot the person in the head, and turned to the other soldier and said, "Not anymore." The soldier has been temperarly suspended. Any one else wanna add on to this incase i missed a few details?

The way I heard it was that the guy moved, and that's what prompted the soldier to shoot. Taking into account the way these scumbag terrorists are known to fight, I would have done the same thing. They are notorious for faking injury or death, then attacking. Holding up white flags, then attacking. Hiding behind women and childeren and in mosques. Bunch of dirty cowards.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
The way I heard it was that the guy moved, and that's what prompted the soldier to shoot. Taking into account the way these scumbag terrorists are known to fight, I would have done the same thing. They are notorious for faking injury or death, then attacking. Holding up white flags, then attacking. Hiding behind women and childeren and in mosques. Bunch of dirty cowards.

Take no prisoners, and execute the wounded, right Dave?

Did it ever occur to you that if we behave that way, we are just as bad as them?

Here is a link to a story on the incident.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/15/marine.probe/index.html

The Marines are investigating the incident. The film of the incident has been broadcast. It appears that an individual crossed the line and violated the rules of war. He will be fairly dealt with.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Take no prisoners, and execute the wounded, right Dave?

Did it ever occur to you that if we behave that way, we are just as bad as them? How the heck did you come to that conclusion from what Dave said? He merely pointed out that their nerves are on a razor's edge and any kind of movement can/will be considered hostile.

Honestly, have you even tried to put yourself in their place? It's not a picnic over there. They dont have the luxury of being able to analyze every move they make from every concievable angle before they react. If they do that, chances are they are dead.

Clearly the soldier acted incorrectly if this was what happened. He will be treated accordingly.

But, I hope we don't jump on the bandwagon of demonizing the US forces. This operation was very tough - 38 US soldiers were killed. I know I wouldn't want to be personally involved in that and I have the utmost respect for the soldiers that are faced with that difficult operation of fighting in a city when you could be killed at any moment.

I'm not outraged at this event, I think it's unfortuanate that it was caught on camera.

So, VP, let me get this straight.

If you were fighting against these terrorists and you knew of all the dirty tactics they employed, you wouldn't shoot an "injured" or "dead" terrorist who made a sudden movement. GET REAL.

Originally posted by HaVoK
How the heck did you come to that conclusion from what Dave said? He merely pointed out that their nerves are on a razor's edge and any kind of movement can/will be considered hostile.

I think he pointed out other things as well.

Taking into account the way these scumbag terrorists are known to fight, I would have done the same thing.

Bunch of dirty cowards.

Honestly, have you even tried to put yourself in their place? It's not a picnic over there. They dont have the luxury of being able to analyze every move they make from every concievable angle before they react. If they do that, chances are they are dead.

HaVok, I understand that. I also understand that the fact that war is dangerous does not justify all conduct.

This incident is being investigated because even the military suspects that its rules may have been violated. If that is indeed the case, the soldier in question will be punished, and rightfully so.

Funny I don't hear you libs moaning and groaning about the terrorists' conduct.

About 15 years ago in D.C. I saw a news feed and there was about 15 cops standing around a drug dealer who lost a shoot out with the cops and he had about 6 bullets in him.

As the camera rolled the drug dealer opened his eyes and look around, reached and picked up a pistol and killed 3 policemen and wounded 2. The rest of the cops poured the bullets into the dealer for a long time and things would get quite and then another bullet went into the dealer.

old reb

Originally posted by DaveTooner
So, VP, let me get this straight.

If you were fighting against these terrorists and you knew of all the dirty tactics they employed, you wouldn't shoot an "injured" or "dead" terrorist who made a sudden movement. GET REAL.

From the article Imagineer posted a link to:

In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing.

A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."

The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."

What sudden movement are you referring to? Perhaps he was breathing in a threatening manner.

Maybe the best thing would be to wait and see what the investigation into this matter reveals.

What sudden movement are you referring to? Perhaps he was breathing in a threatening manner.

Don't get too hung up on the word "sudden," okay, Vile? The marine thought he was faking his injury/death. If you thought that, I'm sure you would have done something too. I love how you guys want our troops to be so passive when fighting in a war zone with terrorists who have and will employ ANY dirty tactic to kill our soldiers. You have to take into account how these bastards fight.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Don't get too hung up on the word "sudden," okay, Vile?

I'm not hung up on it Dave, you're the one who has used it repeatedly, even though there is videotape of the incident, and no apparent movement other than breathing.

Again Dave, perhaps it would be best to wait until the investigation is complete before we decide whether the soldier behaved incorrectly.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Funny I don't hear you libs moaning and groaning about the terrorists' conduct.

This is not a valid argument. We are not terrorists, so it's hardly valid to use their conduct as any kind of reference point.

It's easy for us to sit here in comfort and armchair judge the actions of a soldier who is in a terribly hard situation. Nobody can know how one would act unless you had been there. It's probably very hard to make no mistakes at all. It's a war zone inside a city with potential snipers and opponents around every corner & under every rock.

I could imagine that if was one in that situation you would take no chances. What the soldier did was wrong (if he did was is being reported) but I would not drag the guy over the coals. It should be a relative non-issue. I imagine it happened thousands of times, the only difference being this was on camera.

I'm not hung up on it Dave, you're the one who has used it repeatedly

Once = repeadedly?

even though there is videotape of the incident, and no apparent movement other than breathing.

I would hardly call that video conclusive.

This is not a valid argument. We are not terrorists, so it's hardly valid to use their conduct as any kind of reference point.


I totally disagree. The fact that they are terrorists does not make their actions any less wrong or outrageous. I'm not saying that we should act like terrorists. What I'm saying is that if they are going to use dirty tactics like the ones I noted, then we have to adjust our tactics accordingly. We can't simply trust that the terrorist waving a white flag is really trying to surrender.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Once = repeadedly?

No. My mistake. You used the word "sudden" once. You implied in two posts that his movement prompted his shooting.

I would hardly call that video conclusive.


Which is why I twice suggested we should wait for the investigation to be completed.

I totally disagree. The fact that they are terrorists does not make their actions any less wrong or outrageous. I'm not saying that we should act like terrorists. What I'm saying is that if they are going to use dirty tactics like the ones I noted, then we have to adjust our tactics accordingly. We can't simply trust that the terrorist waving a white flag is really trying to surrender.

Does this justify shooting wounded, and unarmed Iraqis?

I don't believe that anyone who has not experienced combat should be judging this issue.

OUR SOLDIERS COME BEFORE THEIR CIVILIANS.

I totally disagree. The fact that they are terrorists does not make their actions any less wrong or outrageous. I'm not saying that we should act like terrorists. What I'm saying is that if they are going to use dirty tactics like the ones I noted, then we have to adjust our tactics accordingly. We can't simply trust that the terrorist waving a white flag is really trying to surrender.

Bad Logic Dave - sorry.

We can't justify our actions based on their actions. They cut peoples heads off. Although I agree with Echo's comments above, shooting a guy in the head like that cannot be justified on the premise that the insurgents do much worse things, but there may well be other very valid justifications.

May I get a word in here? Being an old Navy fighter pilot from the past wars, lets give the person (so called terrorists) laying on the floor a fighting chance... He has a gun hidden under him and he is faking he is dead. He could very well have waited until the soldiers backs were turned and shot several..

Now lets spread the distance here in the actual shooting..
Lets say, the same person on the floor was in a window some 100 yards away, and he was wounded and had a gun. The Marine shot him dead.. What's the difference 90 yards makes on how he is shot..

I wonder how many of those 15,000 to 25,000 North Koreans enemy, (some women and children no doubt) that I burned to death with those Napalm bombs, I could be court martial for.


The Marine that they say did the shooting, was wounded the day before, but ask to return to battle.. Good for him...

Originally posted by DrewM
Bad Logic Dave - sorry.

We can't justify our actions based on their actions. They cut peoples heads off. Although I agree with Echo's comments above, shooting a guy in the head like that cannot be justified on the premise that the insurgents do much worse things, but there may well be other very valid justifications.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying "the terrorists do X, so therefore we are allowed to do anything that is not as bad as X" I'm saying that you have to adjust your tactics based on who your enemy is. Not adjust your tactics so that your tactics mirror your enemy's, but adjust them so that you can defend yourself. You can't treat one of these terrorists waving a white flag the same way we would have treated a German soldier waving one in WWII.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying "the terrorists do X, so therefore we are allowed to do anything that is not as bad as X" I'm saying that you have to adjust your tactics based on who your enemy is. Not adjust your tactics so that your tactics mirror your enemy's, but adjust them so that you can defend yourself. You can't treat one of these terrorists waving a white flag the same way we would have treated a German soldier waving one in WWII.

Overall - I think we are in complete agreement on this issue, I just raised that issue because I saw the same argument with the Prison thing, that people complain about what the US do but not what the terrorists do. That argument is not the way to justify this episode. If that kids life gets ruined over this then it will be an absolute outrage.

I don't think this may have been the best route to take on our soldiers part but, I have never been in a soldiers shoes.
I have also never been in a soldiers shoes during a war.
I would imagine by now these men and women are tired and not very sympathetic to the daily situations that they are put in by the enemy. We have seen these people kill their own civilians, behead our American civilians and countless other horrid sites the media will not bother to broadcast.
I think if I were in the shoes of an American soldier in Iraq, my first instinct would be shoot first and ask questions later when you know the enemy is in front of you .

It is not uncommon for bodies to be "booby-trapped" with grenades or even landmines set to explode when the body is moved. This would not be the first incident of a seemingly helpless combatant to pull a grenade or other weapon from somewhere on his person to do whatever harm he could do before he died. The Marine investigation will take place to either clear the young leatherneck from criminal charges or be prosecuted. Those folks are under tremendous pressure, house to house combat is some of the most stressful, I suspect many of us in the same position would have tossed bullets at a known combatant to protect ourselves & our comrades.
I was in Viet Nam from 69-72. I know just a little about combat. Having viewed the video several times, there might be some questions about that Marine crossing the line or actually doing his duty to protect his comrades. We're sitting here, on the other side of the planet, and none of the networks (that are available to me on local cable) have shown the complete video. Let's give that young jarhead the benefit of the doubt.

Originally posted by es347fan
It is not uncommon for bodies to be "booby-trapped" with grenades or even landmines set to explode when the body is moved. This would not be the first incident of a seemingly helpless combatant to pull a grenade or other weapon from somewhere on his person to do whatever harm he could do before he died. The Marine investigation will take place to either clear the young leatherneck from criminal charges or be prosecuted. Those folks are under tremendous pressure, house to house combat is some of the most stressful, I suspect many of us in the same position would have tossed bullets at a known combatant to protect ourselves & our comrades.
I was in Viet Nam from 69-72. I know just a little about combat. Having viewed the video several times, there might be some questions about that Marine crossing the line or actually doing his duty to protect his comrades. We're sitting here, on the other side of the planet, and none of the networks (that are available to me on local cable) have shown the complete video. Let's give that young jarhead the benefit of the doubt.

Agreed... Thank you for your service to our country es347fan.:)

Originally posted by HaVoK
How the heck did you come to that conclusion from what Dave said? He merely pointed out that their nerves are on a razor's edge and any kind of movement can/will be considered hostile.


No, Havok.....actually, what Dave SAID is radically different from your interpretation of his comments.

See if any of these words of Dave's ring a bell for you ---

""....scumbag terrorists"""

""....I would have done the same thing""

""....notorious for faking injury or death, then attacking"""

""Hiding behind women and childeren and in mosques""

"" Bunch of dirty cowards"""

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, Havok.

Riffle thru the above comments for me and point out the parts where Dave said anything about (according to your interpretation) "nerves on a razor's edge", or " movement can/will be considered hostile".

M'kay??

Originally posted by Freethinker
No, Havok.....actually, what Dave SAID is radically different from your interpretation of his comments.

See if any of these words of Dave's ring a bell for you ---

""....scumbag terrorists"""

""....I would have done the same thing""

""....notorious for faking injury or death, then attacking"""

""Hiding behind women and childeren and in mosques""

"" Bunch of dirty cowards"""

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, Havok.

Riffle thru the above comments for me and point out the parts where Dave said anything about (according to your interpretation) "nerves on a razor's edge", or " movement can/will be considered hostile".

M'kay?? You answered your own question. They were my interpretations of what he was saying. I was asking how Vile came to his.

Bad things happen in war on both sides. Its no picnick out there.
To face death day after day puts you a little bit on edge. I am sure that with the media involved this incident will go farther than it should.

The biggest damage that this incident does is to the battle to win the support of the Iraqi people. Abu Gharib did damage to that effort, and this will do the same.
From what I've heard as the day has gone on, the Marine who fired the shot had been wounded slightly yesterday. He was returned to duty today.
Whether he broke the rules of war depends entirely on what he believed was happening. If he believed that the man he shot was an unarmed, wounded, enemy who was out of combat he is guilty. If he believed that the man he shot was an enemy who was armed and trying to fake being dead to get the chance to attack his squad, he acted properly. It all depends on what he believed. Whether the man actually had a weapon is irrelevant, and could only be known after the fact.
War is full of tragedies. That is why war should always be a last resort, and undertaken with all due deliberation.

The Thing with War is that with War we Are never Fully Shown what truely happens.

Its always been proven that we will never no how Stalin Died, The Exact Date that Hitler Commintted Suicide and we will never truely know all the details of any of the Wars, past and Present.

This shows a problem also. . . . . . situations when explained can be falseified or Denied.

That lies the problem of understanding if an article 32 investigation is held and some of the reports may be falseified and the real vertics be found guilty when they are inncocent or the other way.

He won't know if he armed or not, ememy or civillian. . . . All we know is this person is Dead and isen't coming back.

Agent Day
Neo Conservative Manifesto

We do know that once dead, that clown won't be shooting at anyone ever again. Who's to say that he was actually Iraqi? He could easily have been another misguided Saudi.

Excellent observation ES.

Playing dead and then attacking is common Islamic trick.

When the Marines first drove into Iraq cities the Islamics would lie down beside the road in open sight and pretend to be dead. When the marines drove past they would jump up and fire their rpg missiles into our vehicles.

The cure for that was to shoot them while they were playing dead. It sounds mean but if you want to come home again you will do what you have to do.

old reb

We can never be to sure that someone is dead untill you put a bullet inbetween there eyes.

When the Nazi forces killed thousands in there battles they went around and shot up all the corpes just to make sure they were all dead

You can never be to sure in War.

Agent Day
Neo Conservative Manifesto
"Dubya's Secret Police"

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1100731809958

good article from the Toronto Star on the situation.

What is an incredible article that holds support for the US Troops in Iraq and explains it in great detail.

Its about time more people believe that what we are doiung in Iraq is right.

the funny thing about all of this is seeing the liberals who "support" the troops show who they really are. the second a US soldier need his coutnry to support him and stand by his side these fucks are no where to be found, instead they are sucking up to al jazeera and villifying this poor marine before they even know all the facts. with support like that who needs enemys? for the good of the troops and the war, please dont support them anymore liberals!