A couple days ago, I had a bit of a revelation. I realized that one thing which I swore never to do: that is, blame Christianity for everything and think of religion as an essentially bad thing...had happened. I had somehow slipped into that mindset without realizing it, and it disturbed me. Here's how my revelation occured:

In Saturday's St. Pete Times, there's an article in the Sports section about Danny Wuerffel. For those of you who do not know that name, he was the great University of Florida quarterback who lead the Gators to the 1996 National Championship. He also bounced around the NFL for a while, never doing much good for anyone. In any case, Wuerffel had become involved with a charity in New Orleans which helps the inner city street kids out in various ways (The article is here (http://www.sptimes.com/2004/11/13/Sports/Fourth_down_conversion.shtml)). The article mentions that the organization has a church and such, and also that Wuerffel is devoutly religious.

My first thought on that was "Oh great, a Bible-thumper".

Of course, reading further, I discovered a bit more about what this charity does. And they do great things, really. This is when I started feeling guilty, and rightfully so. Religion is connected with so much negativity so very often, as we see red-faced zealots screaming at gay people, or Muslim fundamentalists burning the American flag. But I think this article outlines the good that religion can motivate people to do, and my belief that organized religion is not all bad has been renewed.

I think a large part of why I began to see things in such a very nihilistic and anti-religious light is due to the hate which religion can (and does) espouse. I fully realize that 90% of Christians are very fine folk, and we see that at Allforums. But that 10% minority is a very vocal minority, and they influenced my thoughts in a way which, to tell you the truth, is embarassing to me. They caused me to associate Christianity with the sorts of people who go around holding "God hates fags" signs, when obviously, most Christians are not like that. I have Danny Wuerffel and the St. Pete Times to thank for correcting this mindset in me, and causing me to remember that religion, for all its flaws and embarassments (the Crusades, etc.), can ultimately cause great good for society.

That's a really great story, Borg. I'm really glad to hear it.

Perhaps God sent this article your way for a reason...;)

Well Borg, I am glad you realize that christianity is not like what we are often accused of and that are many sincere people out there serving the Lord with all their heart. Why does the 10% so much more vocal that the 90%? I guess because negative things are more noticed than good things and negative things is what usually makes the news. People notice it when it comes on the news how someone claims that God ordered them into an abortion clinic to open fire with a machine gun. But when good people go out of their to help others who are less fortunate, that doesn't get as much attention.


I know of a church here in Windsor that holds a dinner once a year for the less fortunate people where they come and get fed. There is turkey, mashed potatoes, squash, desert and even donated clothes and toys(if they have chilfdren) to anyone who could use them. One year, I volunteered my time to help out, and more than 100 people came. It was a lot of work involved to do this event. This church does it every year. What's amazing is that it never makes the news.

Poeple showing kindness and reaching out to people makes more of a difference than anything.

You know thats a really good point, J-Man, and I've never thought it about it that way.

There is a church here in my town that gives every family in town boxes of food two or three times a year, and gives the entire family of each household gifts and hams and stuff on Christmas. Other churches (along with the one i mentioned) help MDA,Samaritan Purses' Operation Christmas Child (A very good organization that I helped set up at our church, and anyone can help, youd get a blessing out of it), United Missionaries, Billy Graham Association and others.

There is a lot of good being done, that just, I guess isnt as popular as a religious Jihad or a David Karesh in Waco Texas.

Sadly a lot of newspapers go by that old addage, "Bad news is good news."

My experience is a mirror image of Borgs. I raised around Christians and everyone had great respect for them and they were considered to do more and to give more to their community than I ever would have.

The first negative thing I ever heard about Christians was when Clinton fired some Naval officer, the officer said to some Clinton Politicion, "I was just following my Christian values" The Clinton man told him he needed to adopt a new set of values. I had never heard anybody question Christian values before. As far as gay;, I know plenty of gays in church and they were even more giving than the average Christian.

I had been thinking of starting a thread, asking why the hatred for Christians, but Borgs thread sort of answers that.

I never thought anything negative about Islam until they ordered the death of Salmon Rusdie. That tweaked my interest.

old reb

Very nice post Borg. Whenever I start having negative feelings about religion I remember an incident which took place here in Milwaukee several years ago. It reminds me that while some people use religion as a lens to view other's faults through, to others it's a source of great comfort in times of tragedy.

The incident I mentioned involved a local minister, his wife, and their 4 or 5 children who were driving on the freeway just outside of Milwaukee. As they were driving down the freeway, their minivan struck a large piece of metal that had fallen off a truck, and was laying in the roadway. The piece of metal lodged under the minivan, puncturing the gas tank, and the resulting sparks ignited the gas, causing the minivan to be engulfed in flames. Despite the heroic assistance of passersby, the minister and his wife were the only ones to survive the accident.

When they were interviewed on TV a few days later, the minister and his wife displayed unbelievable grace, and talked about how their faith had helped them deal with this unspeakable tragedy. Religion can be a great comfort to those in need.

Very True Vile.

We may not always know why things happen, but I believe everything happens for the better. God would not purposely have had these children die, if didn't need be.

He would not have let our church burn down if he didnt intend on the best coming from it.

It is true, God does work in mysterious ways, but they are always the best ways. :)

There is no question that Christian organizations and individual Christians do a lot of good things in this world. As do Islamic organizations and individuals, as do many non religious organizations and individuals.

It is important to distinguish between discussion about specific belief sets and actual individuals. Belief sets can be positive in terms of impact on the whole but its the contentious parts of the belief set that gets discussed here. Although people very much become their beliefs I tend to believe in the goodness of people, but we are people and all people are miss-guided to some degree, whatever that may be.

LMAO, none of your liberal, God hating buddies have much to say about this thread. Wonder why?

Originally posted by HaVoK
LMAO, none of your liberal, God hating buddies have much to say about this thread. Wonder why?

Considering that they hate christians and hate our God, they dont want to se anything good about us. If they seen good things about us, they wouldn't have the lame excuses to hate us anymore.

Who hates you?

Maybe you should start another thread asking who hates Christians and God. That way we can just let this thread that has good things to say about christians and religion go unread and fall away to oblivion. I dont want to give Borg's God hating buddies anything to respond to in this thread.

Originally posted by DrewM
Who hates you?

I never said that you do. You just don't agree but I can see that your not a hateful person either.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Maybe you should start another thread asking who hates Christians and God. That way we can just let this thread that has good things to say about christians and religion go unread and fall away to oblivion. I dont want to give Borg's God hating buddies anything to respond to in this thread.
Are you referring to Blib? Why can't you just say his name instead of insinuating that I have a whole bunch of friends who hate God?

While we're at it...Havok, I don't see any response to my original post from you either. Do you hate God? :bike:

Originally posted by BorgHunter
I fully realize that 90% of Christians are very fine folk, and we see that at Allforums. But that 10% minority is a very vocal minority, and they influenced my thoughts in a way which, to tell you the truth, is embarassing to me. They caused me to associate Christianity with the sorts of people who go around holding "God hates fags" signs, when obviously, most Christians are not like that.

Oh, right.

Absolutely.

The "very fine" 90% just hold those thoughts in their mind, as opposed to actually waving one of those mean signs.

Freethinker,

Why do you think this, and how do you think you know what goes on in the mind of someone else?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Religion can be a great comfort to those in need.

True.

But couldn't the same also be said of psychotic dementia??........or alcohol??

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Freethinker,

Why do you think this, and how do you think you know what goes on in the mind of someone else?

I know from what comes out of their mouths. From what they TELL me that goes on in their mind.


The vast majority of Christians that I know make no secret whasoever of the fact that they consider homosexuals to be people committing terrible, "evil" acts, people bound for "Hell".

That doesnt mean we hate homosexuals. I dont considert homosexuality "a terrible, evil act" but I do think its a sin.

And again, I dont hate any homosexual. I am friends with OD and Vile. I respect both of them immensely, and I would never say nothing to purposely offend them regarding their sexuality.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Are you referring to Blib? Why can't you just say his name instead of insinuating that I have a whole bunch of friends who hate God?

While we're at it...Havok, I don't see any response to my original post from you either. Do you hate God? :bike: I thought you made a fine first post Borg. And no, I dont hate God. I love God.

Im glad you will not judge the entire religion on the acts of a few knuckleheads. Im glad you will afford my beliefs the same tolerance as you have freely given other beliefs while at the same time condemning mine for no reasons. Im happy for you letting go of your anger. But I never really paid you too much attention in the first place. I knew your anger towards my religion was only a reflection of your own bigotry.

Originally posted by Freethinker
I know from what comes out of their mouths. From what they TELL me that goes on in their mind.


The vast majority of Christians that I know make no secret whasoever of the fact that they consider homosexuals to be people committing terrible, "evil" acts, people bound for "Hell". Honestly, with your attitude, I find it hard to believe that ANYONE would confide their beliefs in you.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Freethinker,

Why do you think this, and how do you think you know what goes on in the mind of someone else?

It's easy - he profiles them based on their characteristics. He also knows how people think and act based on where they live. But really, it's OK when he does it. It's only bad when conservatives do it.

Originally posted by Freethinker
True.

But couldn't the same also be said of psychotic dementia??........or alcohol??

If you think dementia is a comfort, perhaps you should visit a nursing home.

Freethinker, you have a great deal of intelligence...too much intelligence to believe that religion has caused nothing but harm. While it may be true that throughout history horrible atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, it has also been the inspiration for great works of art, music, and literature.

You seem to have a very negative outlook...you see everything in terms of how bad it is, and never seem to acknowledge the good. Lighten up.

I thought you started a good thread Borg.
I hope that I have not given anyone here the impression that I hate anyone because of their faith. I just like the discussion of pros and cons of any religion.
I have stated many times that I believe in a supreme being. I just believe that man in his attempts to create religions have made errors.
I have seen many good works by many good people in my life. Some of these people were members of religious groups, some were not.
In my younger years there was little state assistance for people in dire need of assistance. Often this gap was filled by churches that helped people as well as neighbors.

Dan, IMO, you're not a hater, just a wonderful debator.


Sincerely-

HaVok De Poet :D

Originally posted by HaVoK
I thought you made a fine first post Borg. And no, I dont hate God. I love God.

Im glad you will not judge the entire religion on the acts of a few knuckleheads. Im glad you will afford my beliefs the same tolerance as you have freely given other beliefs while at the same time condemning mine for no reasons. Im happy for you letting go of your anger. But I never really paid you too much attention in the first place. I knew your anger towards my religion was only a reflection of your own bigotry.

What a post :)

Starts out with "I thought you made a fine post.."

Moves on to further warm fuzzies

and ends with "I knew it was only a reflection of your Bigotry"

:p

What can I say, my thoughts run the full gamut. That and at the old age of 35, i still havent figured out how to express myself with any kind of subtlety. :)

Originally posted by HaVoK
LMAO, none of your liberal, God hating buddies have much to say about this thread. Wonder why?

Yes I was resiliant to posting on this Topic because I do hate God. LMAO.. NO I am just kidding. I don't hate God to me He is just an evolved being similiar to what I will eventually evolve into. Blah, Blah, Yes I do know that Christians do a lot of good things for the Community. They give Christmas Gifts to my son at Christmas, They donated this computer I am using, They have helped me pay my rent before. The church has even offered to Pay for Medicine for my son that he desperately needed before I had free medical for him. On the other side, the Church has questioned my parenting rights before. I have also been told that neglecting to control my imagination is a sin according to the standards of the religion I was baptised in. Also the church would have forced me to marry my son's father, An abusive illerate asshole that only wanted to control my life and actions. So I believe there are good points and bad points to Religion. There it is..... (and I'm trying to be really nice... but it is hard when I feel so bad )

Originally posted by the J Man
Considering that they hate christians and hate our God, they dont want to se anything good about us. If they seen good things about us, they wouldn't have the lame excuses to hate us anymore.

I don't hate Christains... I just feel pity for those who are incapable of opening their mind to other possibilities... I am open to the possibility there just might be a God, but have you ever considered the fact that we are all lab rats in a cage being tormented by a mad scientist, represented by your God?

The vast majority of Christians that I know make no secret whasoever of the fact that they consider homosexuals to be people committing terrible, "evil" acts, people bound for "Hell".

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
That doesnt mean we hate homosexuals. I dont considert homosexuality "a terrible, evil act" but I do think its a sin.

If you DON'T hate homosexuals, aren't you going against the dictates of Yahweh, [you know, that supreme being that you worship] and his Holy Bible, which instructs you to kill them??

The Christian faction in this country, in general, has no reservations about proclaiming the "evils" of homosexuality. If you doubt it, check the vote totals for the various gay marriage amendments that were voted on recently.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
If you think dementia is a comfort, perhaps you should visit a nursing home.

It depends what form the dementia takes.

For instance, those who are afflicted with the dementia that unshakeably convinces them that they are immortal,and are going to live forever in Paradise after their "earthly" body dies are greatly comforted --understandably-- by their dementia.


Originally posted by Vilepagan
...too much intelligence to believe that religion has caused nothing but harm.

I have never said that, nor do I think it.

I do however think that the religious meme --- and particularly the anti-human Christian religion-- has had a net negative effect on the human race, especially when we take into account the anti-rationalist, willfully ignorant "faith" based mindset it engenders in generation after generation.


Originally posted by Vilepagan
While it may be true that throughout history horrible atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, it has also been the inspiration for great works of art, music, and literature.

Sorry, Vile. But for me, a few pretty pictures and a few books of supernaturalist/metaphysical drivel just somehow fail to cancel out centuries of religious incited genocide, hatred and wars.....not to mention the fact that people are being indoctrinated by religion to NOT think critically.

Originally posted by Freethinker
The Christian faction in this country, in general, has no reservations about proclaiming the "evils" of homosexuality. If you doubt it, check the vote totals for the various gay marriage amendments that were voted on recently.
The "Christian faction", eh? 85% of this country is Christian, so based on what you just said, one could expect 85% of the country to vote against gay marriage, right?

WRONG! It's rather the fundamentalist branch which proclaims gays as "evil". Jere, Havok, Dave, Lionel, and many, many others say that homosexuality is not evil; it's just a sin like any other. You really need to learn to seperate the 90% of the good Christians from the exceedingly vocal 10% fundamentalist, Jerry Falwell branch.
It depends what form the dementia takes.

For instance, those who are afflicted with the dementia that unshakeably convinces them that they are immortal,and are going to live forever in Paradise after their "earthly" body dies are greatly comforted --understandably-- by their dementia.
Your dementia -- that religion (or, if you will, its "meme") is an evil, terrible thing -- must give you comfort as well, as you obviously look down upon those who are religious. I think it's sad that you are so filled with hate. I also think that you're where people get their ideas about atheism from, i.e. that atheists are arrogant bastages who look down on religious people.
Sorry, Vile. But for me, a few pretty pictures and a few books of supernaturalist/metaphysical drivel just somehow fail to cancel out centuries of religious incited genocide, hatred and wars.....not to mention the fact that people are being indoctrinated by religion to NOT think critically.
As for your first point, it must be said that the Crusade are OVER now, and most of those who are religious do not think in nearly the same fashion as did people in the Dark Ages. And your second point does have merit, that religion in general causes people to believe without proof...but many religious people (in fact, most) get their beliefs not from religious indoctrination, but rather from study, soul-searching, and so on.

Originally posted by Freethinker
If you DON'T hate homosexuals, aren't you going against the dictates of Yahweh, [you know, that supreme being that you worship] and his Holy Bible, which instructs you to kill them??

The Christian faction in this country, in general, has no reservations about proclaiming the "evils" of homosexuality. If you doubt it, check the vote totals for the various gay marriage amendments that were voted on recently.

Freethinker,as christiasn we are not to hate anyone. We are to love others. God loves all people including those who hate His guts.

I used to have a difficult time understanding how God can be so loving when you read what you read in the old Testament. Oneday, I came across a booklet from RBC ministries called "Questions Skeptics ask about the God of the Old Testament." It was perfect for me at the time.

I just ask you that you read it online with an open mind at http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0110/

Also, concerning the issue of homosexuality, sure God sees it as a sin, but by no means should we hate homosexuals. Most christiasn don't hate them. It's assumed that christiasn hate them because of not agreeing with their lifestyle. Many just assume that bible believing christians are filled with hate form them whent hey are not.

About homosexuality, you can read at http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/questions/answer/struggle as they give an unbiased explaination about homosexuality, pornography, masturbation, suicide and more.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
The "Christian faction", eh? 85% of this country is Christian, so based on what you just said, one could expect 85% of the country to vote against gay marriage, right?

That every single person among that 85% voted against the gay marriage thing??

Seems a bit unreasonable to me.

But, i DO think that a clear majority voted against it, did it not???

I believe that the anti-gay marriage amendment passed overwhelmingly where it was on the ballot.



Originally posted by BorgHunter
WRONG! It's rather the fundamentalist branch which proclaims gays as "evil".

Oh, riiiiiight.

It's not the "good" Xtians who spread their hatred for these things. It's only the "bad" ...."fundamentalist" Xtian sects that are so hatefilled and that express such strong opposition to gays.

Riiiiight.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Jere, Havok, Dave, Lionel, and many, many others say that homosexuality is not evil; it's just a sin like any other.

Oh yes.

Biiiiiiiiiig difference.

The people you name don't "hate" the homos.

They merely think they're "sinners" who are bound for Hell.

Thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
You really need to learn to seperate the 90% of the good Christians from the exceedingly vocal 10% fundamentalist, Jerry Falwell branch.

YOU really need to recognize that there is a very significant bias against and ill-concealed hatred directed at the gay community in this country from the ENTIRE Xtian community, NOT just the imbecilic Falwell types.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Your dementia -- that religion (or, if you will, its "meme") is an evil, terrible thing -- must give you comfort as well, as you obviously look down upon those who are religious.

Nice fucking try, pal.

But I can give clear-cut examples of WHY the actions and thinkng processes of religious people should be considered a form of **dementia**.........while you can not do the same for my criticisms of religious/superstitious belief.


Originally posted by BorgHunter
I think it's sad that you are so filled with hate.

Okey dokey.

I think it is sad that so many rational, sane people in this society are forced to abide by the idiotic taboos, prohibitions, decrees and "commandments' of the simpleminded superstitionists among us.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
I also think that you're where people get their ideas about atheism from, i.e. that atheists are arrogant bastages..

Ok.

I am an **arrogant bastage**.

Sentence me to your "Hell" and laugh at me while I roast in the flames your "god" created .

That's been the speciality of sanctimonious, religious elitists since the first charlatan met the first fool.

Originally posted by Freethinker
while you can not do the same for my criticisms of religious/superstitious belief.

Sentence me to your "Hell" and laugh at me while I roast in the flames your "god" created .

Borg's an athiest FT.

Freethinker...LMAO, Lionel is right, I am an atheist...for Christ's sake, in my signature it says "Borg for Anti-Christ"! :D

Wait....Borg's an athiest? :eek:


Nah, just kidding, anyone would know that.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Freethinker...LMAO, Lionel is right, I am an atheist...for Christ's sake, in my signature it says "Borg for Anti-Christ"! :D He must have been too busy "thinking" to notice. Or read what this entire thread was all about in the first place, for that matter. :lolhit:

Freethinker keeps saying that christians think homosexuals are sinners. Does he not realize that Christians think ALL PEOPLE are sinners?

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Freethinker keeps saying that christians think homosexuals are sinners. Does he not realize that Christians think ALL PEOPLE are sinners?

Thats a good point, Dave.

Although, Free doesnt just think we think all are sinners, but that we hate all as well.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Thats a good point, Dave.

Although, Free doesnt just think we think all are sinners, but that we hate all as well.

In other words, if you don't agree with a lifestyle, your supposively hateful. In order to not be considered hateful, you have to agree with that lifestyle. If you say it is wrong for people to use narcotics, your supposively hateful to them. If you say that pornography is wrong, again, your supposively being hateful.

A lifestyle that's not chosen. That would be bigotry and hate. If somebody consciously chooses to do something, that's a problem, and you can call it a sin all you damn well want, but if it cannot be consciously chosen, in any way shape or form, then you, sir, are being an asshole.

Freethinker keeps saying that christians think homosexuals are sinners. Does he not realize that Christians think ALL PEOPLE are sinners?
Really? So, why don't the majority do what they normally do to basically everything else and turn their heads and scream "LALALALALA!".

If I believe someone is doing something that is not good for them, what is the loving response? Is it loving to tell them, "hey you're okay, pal. Keep on doing what you are doing."?

NO.

The loving thing is to tell them that you think they would be better off changing their course of action.

One of the most hateful things you can do is to see someone on a path that leads to destruction, and refuse to warn them.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Thats a good point, Dave.

Although, Free doesnt just think we think all are sinners....,

In point of fact, I don't consider ANYONE on this planet to be a "sinner", because there is no "higher power" that we could "sin" against.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
.....but that we hate all as well.

Nah.

The Christian faction in the US doesn't hate everyone.

They are just sternly ---sometimes violently-- opposed to and biased against those who worship the "wrong" gawd.....or those who choose not to live by the archaic set of rules of their mythical Biblegod.....or those who do not go along with them and accept the Christian's particular version of "morality" as their own.

Originally posted by Freethinker
In point of fact, I don't consider ANYONE on this planet to be a "sinner", because there is no "higher power" that we could "sin" against. Your powers of comprehension are truly awe inspiring.


Try




Reading




Slower

Originally posted by HaVoK
Your powers of comprehension are truly awe inspiring.


Try




Reading




Slower

My reading comprehension skills are just fine.

Jerejere said -- ""Free doesnt just think we think all are sinners, but that we hate all as well.""

I am fully aware that he was refering to what Christians themselevs thought about *sinners*, and not what I might or might not think of them.

I just wanted to throw it out there what I think of the entire concept of judgementally placing people in a category called *sinners*.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Originally posted by Freethinker
My reading comprehension skills are just fine.

Jerejere said -- ""Free doesnt just think we think all are sinners, but that we hate all as well.""

I am fully aware that he was refering to what Christians themselevs thought about *sinners*, and not what I might or might not think of them.

I just wanted to throw it out there what I think of the entire concept of judgementally placing people in a category called *sinners*.

Hope that clears it up for you.

I was referring to what you think, Christians think about others.