Being as though a lot of the currently active threads in this forum, keep coming back to the topic of some, chosing to not choose heaven, even if they were given undeniable evidence in support of Christ.

I want to start this thread, so that we can explore this whole idea thuroughly and begin to focus on it, because it seems to be of huge concern to both sides.

It's not a concern to me.

I think you miss-understand the points made about heaven and hell in the other threads, but it's a topic worth a thread of it's own.

Why not re-iterate your most "accurate" description of both heaven & hell.

I can only go by the descriptions in the Bible. Obviously I have not been to either, and no one that has is here now.

Here is something to think about, when thinking about the splendidness of Heaven.

I dont know about others, but I live in one of the most beautiful states in the country. Long green fields kiss endless strolling mountians in every direction. Its a beautiful place.

But think about this. God created all the Earth's beauty in 7 days. Upon Jesus' accent, he said I go now to prepare for you a place.

Can you imagine how great that will be? He did all this in 7 days, and now he has been preparing Heaven for 2000+ years.

Truly amazing.

I think you just need to get out more. Try making a go of this life first and worry less about how long God has been crafting heaven.

If you fail to worry about what awaits you after you leave this planet, thats on your fault.

I am prepared. And I am prepared to be with the lord.

Once someone ends up in hell, they are there for etenity. There is no way out. it is too late. Why not repent while you have the chance rather than wait until it is too late? Your not promised another tomorrow.

I have no worry about what awaits after this planet & I can only live life by my standards. I simply could never accept the literal fundamental view that you guys have - it makes no sense to me and it quite simply never will. That will never change.

You don't have to have the same views on everything we have. Every church has doctrine....but if you dont accept Christ as your lord and savior, and repent of your sins, you WILL burn in hell for all eternity.

Can you really say, you would rather be with the devil that is the enemy of all, than the lord who is the savior and creator of all?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
You don't have to have the same views on everything we have. Every church has doctrine....but if you dont accept Christ as your lord and savior, and repent of your sins, you WILL burn in hell for all eternity.

Can you really say, you would rather be with the devil that is the enemy of all, than the lord who is the savior and creator of all?

I appreciate that you believe this, but because you believe it doesn't make it true.

So far the only logic you propose over and over is do you want to burn in hell? It's not a very persuasive argument at all.

I really cant fathom that you are taking it all that serious. Again and Again I have asked if you if you would really rather burn in hell than be in eternal paradise with God....and all you ever say is that you dont fear it because you dont think it exists.

Tell me then, if you did find out, with 100% exactness that there is a Heaven and a Hell, exactly as how they are percieved, can you still say you'd rather be in Hell?

Yes - if it was exactly as you perceive it to be.

I just dont understand how anyone could be like that.

Rather be tortured by the the hater of all, than to be blessed by the savior and lover of all.

I just cant fathom it. Sorr.

We are witnessing one of the greatest traps in religion of all time. Obey us, and go to heaven, deviate, and burn in hell. This alone has kept probably billions of people throught time in this religion. Internally, this is logically flawless. However, this doesn't necessarily mean it isn't flat out absurd. The world doesn't exist in the way they want. I still have never seen a good answer to how god can be loving, and at the same time knowingly commit billions of people to hell because they grew up under different tennets than some. How god can commit to hell billions of people who are wonderful humans, yet they miss the one moronically required rule of believing in Jesus?

Originally posted by Blibblob
I still have never seen a good answer to how god can be loving, and at the same time knowingly commit billions of people to hell because they grew up under different tennets than some. How god can commit to hell billions of people who are wonderful humans, yet they miss the one moronically required rule of believing in Jesus? [/B]

Both myself and Jerejere have given you answers to that before.

Originally posted by the J Man
Both myself and Jerejere have given you answers to that before.

Your answers are unsatisfactory.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I just dont understand how anyone could be like that.


I think the main reason is because your description of heaven sounds very unpleasant. You depict an eternity with no doubts, regrets, or desires. Without these there can be no joy either, just an eternity of emotionally neutral nothing.

Jere - your description of heaven sounds like one of those watchtower magazines that have pictures of people in the Swiss alps playing with lion cubs with all smiles.

The heaven you describe is identical to the hell you describe minus the eternal pain.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Your answers are unsatisfactory.

:rolleyes: Only to those unwilling to hear an answer.

Oh, and to Vile and Drew about your posts slamming Heaven...I say this.

You have the right to feel however you want, and make your decision. Heaven or Hell. Just like you have to right to decide rather or not to be saved by Jesus.

We are only here telling you about your alternative.

All that is being slammed is your picture of heaven. I have no clue if heaven exists or what it would be like - so it would be impossible for me to slam heaven.

Can you follow why several people have said your description of heaven sounds like hell?

I comprehend what they are saying is their reason....I dont quite understand how they would prefer eternal torture to something where they would be "bored."

Kinda blows my mind...but oh well.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Kinda blows my mind...but oh well.

I understand exactly how you feel. That's the way I feel when someone says that a loving god provided two alternatives for the afterlife for his beloved chidren...one is eternal torment having demons sodomize people with red-hot pitchforks, and the alternative is a mind-numbing eternity in an emotionless, intellectually vacuous void...nice god you believe in Jere...

jere, you and j man have this picture of heaven and hell from the Christian Bible.
My question is did you pick Christianity after carefully studying all religions or merely because it was what you were exposed to at home or in your area?

I have read your reasons for believing but I am sure that believers of other religions, Islam for instance, would have similar reasons for believing there's is the true faith also. I am sure that there would be Islamic people that say they have wittnessed miricles in their life and now know a joy that is unsurpassed. Plus they get these 71 virgins at death. Of course this seems obsurd. Right.
I believe the writers of the Bible used golden streets, paradise etc., because this was precious commodities that the average person could identify with.
The opposite, a hell of fire, was used because burning is one of the most painful experiences a person can have and also easily identified with. Kind of like telling a child that you will spank him/her for disobeying and reward for following the rules. It would be hard to invent a religion and have it followed if you did not have a system of punishment and reward written in.

Originally posted by Blibblob
We are witnessing one of the greatest traps in religion of all time. Obey us, and go to heaven, deviate, and burn in hell. This alone has kept probably billions of people throught time in this religion. Internally, this is logically flawless. However, this doesn't necessarily mean it isn't flat out absurd. The world doesn't exist in the way they want. I still have never seen a good answer to how god can be loving, and at the same time knowingly commit billions of people to hell because they grew up under different tennets than some. How god can commit to hell billions of people who are wonderful humans, yet they miss the one moronically required rule of believing in Jesus?

Took the words right outta my mouth. We think alike

The idea of eternal torture/life seems like a half baked way of getting people to be obedient to the religion at hand. I believe that humans are born, grow old and die, like all other animals on this planet. I don't believe that we are to be the only one's that get special treatment and the rest of the animals on this planet get pissed on.

Are you an animal lover CX? lol.

To Dan- I chose Christianity after dealing many years with doubt. Christ led me through this, and has shown me the light. I am so thankful for that.

He done the same thing in my life that he wants to do in each of yours.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
To Dan- I chose Christianity after dealing many years with doubt.

Doubt about what?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Doubt about what?

Rather or not I could live right. Rather or not there was a God. Rather or not I was good enough to be God's servant.

The devil was fulling my mind with a lot of junk, and Jesus brought me through it.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Rather or not I could live right. Rather or not there was a God. Rather or not I was good enough to be God's servant.

The devil was fulling my mind with a lot of junk, and Jesus brought me through it.

You can live right without Jesus.

The question on if there is a God academic.

Good enough to be Gods servant? - Why would this be a major worry? I don't understand this one. It is this underlying sense of lack of self worth that drives a lot of people into evangelical groups.

Jesus brought you through it, or a lot of other Christians brought you through it? If you had be sequestered during this process I wonder if the outcome would have been the same.

This process of conversion is relatively straight forward a psychological / group impact process.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jerejerebinks


To Dan- I chose Christianity after dealing many years with doubt.

"Many years", gee Jere you are only 17.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


To Dan- I chose Christianity after dealing many years with doubt. Christ led me through this, and has shown me the light. I am so thankful for that.



I mean this with all due respect "YOU ARE 17 YEARS OLD" Now this is not to say you are ignorant... you have some very fluid ideas, even if I don't agree with you. However.... Honestly Were your parents religious? Because I feel since I came from a "Catholic family" with traditional "Catholic Traditions" In an ironic way made me the "Sinner" I am today. At 17 years old you aren't even allowed to enter into a legal and binding contract are you?

LOL. Jere, I could say the same thing about my conversion, but I'd be lying. I became an atheist after much study, but not over a long period of time. For anybody to believe you, your IQ would have to be way above 150. And after seeing your posts and your logic... no.

At 17 years old you aren't even allowed to enter into a legal and binding contract are you?
Yes we can! Although, due to our age, it makes it much easier in court for the opposing side to say "HAHA! Fuck you!"

Originally posted by Blibblob


At 17 years old you aren't even allowed to enter into a legal and binding contract are you?
Yes we can! Although, due to our age, it makes it much easier in court for the opposing side to say "HAHA! Fuck you!"

Intersting I was curious weather or not you could. I think there are also other ways of getting around that I think one can become Emanicapated at the age of 16 and become legally responsible for himself.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jerejerebinks


To Dan- I chose Christianity after dealing many years with doubt.

"Many years", gee Jere you are only 17.

Indeed...Jere, how long have you been involved in religion, or your church?

Jere, I believe everyone here knows me well enough to realize that I was not condeming your age. I meant that years of doubt would have you considering such things at an awfully young age.
This is usually a period of time when a young man is enjoying life on a not-so-serious basis.
I spent decades studing, attending various churches, listening to many discussions, and having many life experiences before coming to the conclusions that I have formed.
Believe it or not you yourself will possibly change some of your opinions as the years go by.
Just do not to forget enjoy this life we have to its fullest and do not forget to "smell the roses".

I will respond to the last few posts that addressed me respectively.

My parents are believers, but are not Christians. My grandfather was a Pentacostal preacher, whom I attended church with a few times as a young child, and I loved to hear him preach but other things about the Pentacostal lifestyle I do not understand.

As for the emphasis on my age....I guess the reason I started thinking so heavily on my life, was when a friend of mine died in elementry school. He was very big into church and Jesus growing up, and when he died, I remember the funeral pastor talk so heavily about the comfront to know he is now with the lord.

That really made me begin to ask myself, where would I go if something ever happened to me? I battled through a lot of doubts as I have touched on previously, and like I also touched on, God led me through it.

As to Blib....when you refered to knowing how smart I am based on my posts....I really find that rather stupid, because you really know nothing about me. I read a lot about you in your posts, but there is no way of me to know of these things are true. I will be respectful and not talk to you about it, I would appreciate it in the future, if you'd do the same.

So basicially you are saying that it was a part of your Nurturing when you were a child... Children are sponges we all know that. I mean If I wanted to I could teach my son that Dog = Cat or other ways... I could teach him to say all his pronouns in Spanish and he wouldn't think anything differently untill he was in a situation where he learned that there is a different way of speaking. That is what happened to me. I learned that I don't have to Simply believe in something because my environment exposes me to it. I am proud to say I am a recovering Catholic.

It was not part of nurturing, it was part of thinking. I pretty much already knew I needed the lord. I just didnt realize how badly.

::sighs:: Well you are betting around the bush here jer Jer.... What I have been trying to express is although you say you just know you needed God and maybe this is true, but you have been in a religious environment, which does not give you the freedom of thought to explore differnt possibilites beside's just having Heaven and Hell and this Higher being you have labeled "God".

I have not always been in a religious enviroment!!!! At all!!!

My father believes in Jesus...but at times his temper can be anything bust a religious atmosphere.

I have friends, many of them right here on this forum, that believe very diffrently than what I do, and that is fine.

I am only here to proclaim the Gospel. (and debate and occasionally play a little word association:D)

::sighs:: I am getting bored. ::laughs::

Originally posted by philosophytara
::sighs:: I am getting bored. ::laughs::

Why is that, Tara?

not sure.... Looking for something else to debate on... ::smiles:: I get bored easily I require a lot of stimulation.

I see....

Well, I'll continue to talk on this matter with whoever feels the need.

well say something then.... I'm at a loss for words. LOL