Since I have been asked to go into detail on a miracle that has happened in my life. I will redescribe the miracle that I posted about several weeks ago. (Im sure Vile and others will be familar)

In January our church burned to the ground as a result of some ancient wiring in a heater.

The first miracle that God performed was saving the fellowship hall from even being touched by the flames that were consuming everything around it.

Over the next weeks, we began meeting at a sister church in town, mostly to pray and to figure out what to do next. We decided that one of the first things we had to get before the new church was built, was pews.

We found a couple in New York, that had bought an old church building, that for some reason, had brand new pews in, that seemed hardly used.

A few of the guys in the church were chosen to make the long trip to New York, and we did just that.

On the way there a Suburban, that one of the guys was driving began to act funny. We were well away from Kentucky at this point, and didnt know what to do. We pulled over, and prayed. He got back in and it began to drive. He drove in Neutral all those miles, and never once got pulled over or even had a horn hocked at him.

We finally found our way to this family's house, and what a family they where. You could not have met a better Christian family anywhere. We had a nice prayer meeting with them, and discussed their life, and ours.

After a visit, we were about to head home, so we called for a Truck. There was none. We didnt know what to do again, so we decided to spend the night at a local hotel...and then the only hotel in the entire area only took credit cards--which none of us had.

By the grace of God, that wonderful family that we met let us stay there. We got up the next morning and called again, still no truck.
We spent the day at the family's, and there was talk of going back home, and coming back again later for it, and then the phone rang. A truck order had been canceled and we were free to get one. We drove the truck from the depot to the pews and began to load them...the truck wasnt nearly long enough. We were again hit in the face with an obstacle.

As we sat discouraged, the wife came outside and told her husband that they had just called and said if that truck wasnt long enough they had another one of the same size we could use. God was truly at work.


We drove that home today, with a suburban driving in neutral, and one of the trucks headlights where out. We drove the whole way home, without getting pulled over one time.

God was so protective and mericiful on us during this trip. He continued to bless us and answer our prayers over and over. It was truly a miracle of God.

Nice story. Glad that things work out for your church in the end.

Why didn't God just put the fire out so nothing burned?

When you say drive in Neutral - do you mean the car was just driving with the engine disconnected from the drive train? - Now that would a real miracle, the rest is quaint, but not really so really much of a miracle.

Originally posted by DrewM

Why didn't God just put the fire out so nothing burned?


Obviously, I dont know what God's intentions where, but I have a few theories.

1) It was a very old building. The lord may have let it burn, while no one was inside, so that the building would not collasp on a Sunday morning or something.

2) It is a rebirth in the church. As soon as we got started back, many lost souls started flocking to our church, and many of which have gotten saved.

All in all, the rebuilidng process has been gradual but it has made us closer as a church than ever before.

And as the preacher reminded us throughout, "The Church is the people, not the building"

Good answers - I asked about the fire thing a bit tongue in cheek,

but what about the car driving in neutral under Gods Power - tell me more about that.

Well we were driving along and, im no mechanic, so Ill just descibe what happened.

The car began to lock up and scoot for several feet, and then start again, and then lock up and scoot, and so forth,until it completely locked up and the vehicle basically shut down.

We cut it off, and upon trying to turn it back on it wouldnt come on for a long, long time. This is when we prayed. Suddenly upon turning it on, it kicked into neutural, and screeched loudly but it scooted ahead a few feet with no problem. He clicked it up to drive, and the car died again. We went through the process, and drove it all the rest of the way like that.

Yep cars do that type of thing. Was it God? hmm. I doubt it - but you never know.

So are you just going to say that everything that happened was merely a coincidence?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
So are you just going to say that everything that happened was merely a coincidence?
A serious of unfortunate events for you which you ended up finding a way around. Nothing more.

If God were truly at work, you would have been driving in a Toyota, and none of that transmission business would have occured. :D

So, you ARE saying it was just coincidence? You really dont like to be presented with evidence that goes against you do you?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
So, you ARE saying it was just coincidence? You really dont like to be presented with evidence that goes against you do you?

Coincidence certainly. There wasn't anything out of the ordinary in your story at all.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
So, you ARE saying it was just coincidence? You really dont like to be presented with evidence that goes against you do you?

Well it certainly sounds like a coincidence - my car had some problems I prayed and the problems went away. Hardly proof of anything.

I would love for you to present some evidence - but I think its a bit much to call this evidence.

I think its a bit unlikely, any evidence would ever be good enough to some, such as yourself.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Coincidence certainly. There wasn't anything out of the ordinary in your story at all.

How do you know? Were you there to see it?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I think its a bit unlikely, any evidence would ever be good enough to some, such as yourself.

Untrue, plus I have no specific problem accepting miracles, it's just that your example of a miracle that happened to you wasn't much to write home about.

Originally posted by the J Man
How do you know? Were you there to see it?

I know that Jere mentioned nothing out of the ordinary in his story. According to his story there was nothing to "see".

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I think its a bit unlikely, any evidence would ever be good enough to some, such as yourself.

To suggest that anyone would believe your story is evidence of a miracle strains the bounds of reason.

Jere, you seem to have a very loose definition of what a "miracle" is...it seems that any fortuitous event will take on a miraculous aspect for you.

A miracle implies a happening that cannot be explained by anything other than supernatural intervention.

mir·a·cle n.

1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

There was absolutely nothing in your story that even approached this definition.

Have you ever experienced an occurence that cannot be explained by anything other than supernatural intervention? Any experience that appeared to defy the laws of nature?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Jere, you seem to have a very loose definition of what a "miracle" is...it seems that any fortuitous event will take on a miraculous aspect for you.

Let's take a look at your defintion....

mir·a·cle n.

1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

]I have no doubt that this entire trip was one big act of God. Over and over again, he continued to let us prosper through adversity, by answering our prayers fully.



Originally posted by Vilepagan
There was absolutely nothing in your story that even approached this definition.

Have you ever experienced an occurence that cannot be explained by anything other than supernatural intervention? Any experience that appeared to defy the laws of nature?

In 2001, my grandfather had been suffering from cancer for the greater part of two years. The doctors had gave him practically everything, and he had gave so much bloodwork, it took a good hour for the doctor to find a spot that could still withdrawl blood in his arm. In March, he was given 6 months to live.

The entire family prayed night and day. He was on every prayer list in the city. One night, when the end seemed all to near, the majority of the family gathered at his estate, and waited.

He lived through the night, and most of us stayed. About 5 or 6 in the morning, he yelled for my Grandmother. He asked, "Did you see that Honey?"

"Did I see what?" my grandmother replied.

My grandfather went on to describe what he had seen. A hand had came down from the roof and entered his stomach.

My grandfather lived. He gained strength back. He gained energy back. And within a month, there was no sign of cancer at all in his body.

The doctors could not explain it, but as one of them put it, and quite rightly so. "Son, you best be glad God's on your side."

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


Let's take a look at your defintion....[/b]

Maybe you should look at the entire definition.

I have no doubt that this entire trip was one big act of God. Over and over again, he continued to let us prosper through adversity, by answering our prayers fully.

I have no doubt that you believe what you say, but that doesn't constitute "proof" of anything other than your willingness to believe. Why is that you only ascribe the "prospering" to God, and none of the adversity you suffered?

Nice story about your grandfather, but I was really looking for personal experiences. I do wonder why you don't ascribe your grandfathers recovery to the medical care he was receiving.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Maybe you should look at the entire definition.

I'm sorry, but God did answer our prayers that day.


Originally posted by Vilepagan
I have no doubt that you believe what you say, but that doesn't constitute "proof" of anything other than your willingness to believe. Why is that you only ascribe the "prospering" to God, and none of the adversity you suffered?

The thought has crossed our minds a few times, maybe it was a sign that we shouldnt go through with the trip...but then upon prayer, God began to help get us there.

We then knew the Devil was trying to prevent us from getting our task done.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Nice story about your grandfather, but I was really looking for personal experiences. I do wonder why you don't ascribe your grandfathers recovery to the medical care he was receiving.

Because the doctors had done all the knew to do, and had quite literally, sent him home to die.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


I'm sorry, but God did answer our prayers that day.[/B]

Prove it.



The thought has crossed our minds a few times, maybe it was a sign that we shouldnt go through with the trip

And maybe it was just the normal minor adversities one encounters in life.

...but then upon prayer, God began to help get us there.

Did you see, hear or otherwise have any evidence of God's presence beyond believing what you want to believe? Are you willing to admit that is at least possible that there was nothing supernatural about these events?

We then knew the Devil was trying to prevent us from getting our task done.

Isn't it convenient to be able to praise God for helping you, and suggest that all your adversities were someone else's responsibility.

Because the doctors had done all the knew to do, and had quite literally, sent him home to die.

I will be the first one to admit that doctors make mistakes. I also note that rather than admit that they make mistakes, some doctors will ascribe a patients unexpected recovery from an illness the doctor said was terminal, to God's intervention. Kinda removes any responsibility from the doctor doesn't it?

Ok, Vile, just out of curiosity, what would be something you would believe without a shadow of a doubt would be a miracle?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Ok, Vile, just out of curiosity, what would be something you would believe without a shadow of a doubt would be a miracle?

An event that is inexplicable by the laws of nature and thus must be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

Ideally, the evidence for this event would not be anecdotal.

Exactly

Jere - it blows my mind that you can take what is clearly no evidence of any miracle (apart from your natural desire to see miracles in every day exprience of life) and say it is clear evidence.

Nobody is disputing that you personally believe these events were miracles but your evidence is non existant.

The grandfather event tends more toward a potential miracle, but the trip to pick up the pews sounds like everyday living to me.

I have not said it is clear evidence of a miracle, but I do know that God answered our prayers. You can call it what you want, but it was an act of God.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
You can call it what you want, but it was an act of God.

If this is what you consider a discussion of miracles, all I can say is...it wasn't an act of God, it was an act of imagination.

How is it that you can say you "know" it was an act of God rather than you "believe" it was? This statement implies you have evidence that you aren't sharing.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
If this is what you consider a discussion of miracles, all I can say is...it wasn't an act of God, it was an act of imagination.

How is it that you can say you "know" it was an act of God rather than you "believe" it was? This statement implies you have evidence that you aren't sharing.

Ok, youre right, I should say "believe."

I will say, I strongly believe though. :D

Because the doctors had done all the knew to do, and had quite literally, sent him home to die.
No, they sent him home to see what his body could do about it. We don't fully understand the process of cancer. Cancer has been known to just dissapear for currently unknown reasons. That doesn't make it supernatural. It very well could be nothing more than his body doing it's job.

Ok, youre right, I should say "believe."
I will say, I strongly believe though.
Then don't portray it as perfect evidence, and don't ever think that we would see something like that as proof of miracles. That's crazy. Now, would you like to give us a real miracle now, or back down on your allegation that you have proven miracles.

Originally posted by Blibblob

Then don't portray it as perfect evidence, and don't ever think that we would see something like that as proof of miracles. That's crazy. Now, would you like to give us a real miracle now, or back down on your allegation that you have proven miracles. [/B]

I hope and pray that you will see something miraculous from God happen either in your own life or someone else's life.

Originally posted by the J Man
I hope and pray that you will see something miraculous from God happen either in your own life or someone else's life.

How would you define a miracle J Man?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
How would you define a miracle J Man?

The exact same way you defined it just awhile ago Pagan. An event that is inexplicable by the laws of nature and thus must be supernaturla in origin or and act of God.

A miracle is something that could not happen without supernatural intervention. It cannot happen by natural means. I belive that jerejere had experienced a mircale about his grandfather.

Some things, you would have to be there to see for yourself. People can try and reason, but if you were actually there, you would see differently . When my back was healed instanlty, there is no way that could have happened right then and there without God doing the healing. And the prophet of God would have never known what was wrong in the first place if God did not show Him.

Thanks J-Man.

As to Blib when he said about it just being him body clearing up his cancer....you suggest this with absolutely no idea of how bad this really was. He was a long sufferer and battler of Cancer. It pretty much ate away his insides. His colon was almost literally one big cancer. His body was basically withering away.

There was almost no body left to fight anything. Which reminds me of another amazing point. He quickly gained back a lot of his weight, without really eating anything. He was a big man before the illness, and it mostly all came back, with just a few nibbles of food every day.

Originally posted by the J Man
The exact same way you defined it just awhile ago Pagan. An event that is inexplicable by the laws of nature and thus must be supernaturla in origin or and act of God.


Ok...what standard of evidence would you set to prove a miracle?

Or, put another way...how would you decide whether or not a miracle has occurred?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Ok...what standard of evidence would you set to prove a miracle?

Or, put another way...how would you decide whether or not a miracle has occurred?

When you know yourself(regardless of what anyone would think) that this took supernatural intervention for this to happen. If someone is terminally ill and beyond medical help, they get healed from it, it took a touch from God. When someone gets a promotion at work that they were totally unqualified for and would have never got without God intervening on their behalf, they can say that it was the work of God in their lives. When someone who was totally bind or deaf gets healed and is now able to see or hear, that's a miracle. When someone is in a whhel chair and have been told they will enver walk again, and gets healed and can instantly walk right up out of the wheel chair, that's a miracle. When someone is instantly delivered from drug or alcohol addiction, that's a miracle.

I know a woman who went back to school(she dropped out of high school years ago), she asked God to give her wisdom and understanding to do well in her schooling. She got an "A" average. She hadn't been in school for years. When she was in school years ago, she never got A's. She did that through God's help and was a miracle.

Excellent examples J-Man.

Surely, youre gonna hear the athiests say that it proves nothing, but you and I both know this had to be the work of God.

I know a woman who went back to school(she dropped out of high school years ago), she asked God to give her wisdom and understanding to do well in her schooling. She got an "A" average. She hadn't been in school for years. When she was in school years ago, she never got A's. She did that through God's help and was a miracle. [/B][/QUOTE] quote from Jman.


I would have to say that this woman wanted to learn more now then she did before. She dropped out of school did not want to learn, now that she has become older and wiser she desires to go back to school and realizes how important that it is for her to get an education. That is not a Miracle.... It's common sense.

Common sense can also be applied to learning how to properly do a quote.

You want to mind telling me how someone can be brought up out of a wheel chair after being told they cant walk again? Is it just common sense, that their legs just started walking again?

Im really interested into what rubbish you can come up with to explain this....

ok you want me to expalin how a person can walk again after they have been told they can't? Well how about this... Simply because they wanted to badly enough. I believe I can do anything I want to, if someone tells me I can't do something, I become driven to prove them wrong.

Originally posted by philosophytara
ok you want me to expalin how a person can walk again after they have been told they can't? Well how about this... Simply because they wanted to badly enough. I believe I can do anything I want to, if someone tells me I can't do something, I become driven to prove them wrong.

:rolleyes:

So what youre trying to tell me is you can believe a human being can force himself to just get up and walk, but you cant believe in the creator of all, allowing them to?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
:rolleyes:

So what youre trying to tell me is you can believe a human being can force himself to just get up and walk, but you cant believe in the creator of all, allowing them to?


Yes I do... I believe that WE are in control of our own reality and self developement. That we are able to harness our own self will and determination to achieve what we want to. I believe we are are own masters of our own desitny.

(did I use common sense to figure out how to qoute?)

Originally posted by philosophytara
Yes I do... I believe that WE are in control of our own reality and self developement. That we are able to harness our own self will and determination to achieve what we want to. I believe we are are own masters of our own desitny.

I agree that we can reach goals through self determination, but somethings are far beyond ourselves. Such as forcing ourself to be able to walk again, with no therapy or anything, just strait out of the chair into walking.

Originally posted by philosophytara
(did I use common sense to figure out how to qoute?)

Well,

Being as though I told you where the button was, I dont know how much thought really went into it.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


I agree that we can reach goals through self determination, but somethings are far beyond ourselves. Such as forcing ourself to be able to walk again, with no therapy or anything, just strait out of the chair into walking.


So you place limits on yourself but not on a "supposed" higher being such as God? Wow! how little you must think of yourself to just accept some religious fact that there is a greater being out there capable of doing limitless things. Then there is YOU (or humans in general).... you place limitations on... Why? So you can blindly Follow like sheep everything that has been placed on your table to digest as truth? I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that I am like a rat Trapped in a cheese maze, or held hostage in some cage where God is represented as a "mad Scientist" performing "experiments" on, and in control of my destiny or environment.

Looks like you lost that quoting skill you worked so hard to learn.

Anyway....on to your post.

Do I believe there is someone out there far greater than all humans? Yes.

Do I have an problem with that? No Im not that conceded.

Am I greatful there is? Absolutely.

Philo,

Humans are a falliable, sinful, and in some instances very wicked being. God is none of these things. He is totally infalliable. He is holy. He is omnipotent. He is omnicient.

He is God.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks




Humans are a falliable, sinful, and in some instances very wicked being. God is none of these things. He is totally infalliable. He is holy. He is omnipotent. He is omnicient.

He is God.


I see myself as becoming that one day.... I guess you could call it Blasphemy or what not, but I believe that we will evolve into God like beings, perhaps as energy, or spirit or simply consciounsness that we are able to understand and perceive and manipulate matter and energy through sheer will.... which brings me back to the argument that I Do in fact believe a person can will themselves to walk if they are focused and strong enough in mind to be able to manipulate their own reality around them.

Doesnt that go against your claiming of me of looking down on myself?

You dream of being something better than you are. Obviously others have died before, so you think they are this energy that is greater than us.

Thats kind of hypocritical.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Doesnt that go against your claiming of me of looking down on myself?

You dream of being something better than you are. Obviously others have died before, so you think they are this energy that is greater than us.

Thats kind of hypocritical.

That sounds like nonsense. I say you set limitations on yourself, and that you believe you are inferior to another being, (God) I see myself as becoming one day more then I am in a physical sense or spiritual sense of enlightenment or knowledge. This is not to say I see myself as less then I am I simply haven't evolved to that point yet.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Looks like you lost that quoting skill you worked so hard to learn.


Looks like you need to hone your social skills. Is that how you were taught to speak to a lady?

For the record, this matter has been dealth with personally, and I do apologize to Tara.

apology accepted.... ::smiles::

Thanks.

And dont tell anyone who helped you with loading your picture....that might hurt somebody's feelings. haha.

:p

would it hurt your feelings because I was unsuccessfull with your advice.... It was another that helped me ::smile::

Oh well.

*bites tongue*