There are more and more muslims in Europe and that is terryfying me,really. What's the worst of all is their starting to act like Europe was their home. They do NOT respect the european tradition,culture and rules. The best of all would be to kick'em out of Europe and to errect a huge wall isolating ur beautiuful continent from muslim deserts. Oh yeah, deserts are the best place for that muslim plague. You, arabs, must know that we're not gonna be easy with you. Either you assimilate into our culture and standards or you go back to the sand land.
And by the way, I think Islam is a faulse religion. What you believe in is a bullshit. Mohammed created Islam cos he wanted to take over the power. It was the only way he could make people follow him to conquere Mecca or soemthing like that (I don't remember exactly what city it was).
So how can Islam be a peaceful religion if it was created while fighting ??
The answer is it cant ... :mad:

I agree that the Muslims in Europe aren't integrating very well, particularly France, and they are a growing population in countries where the indigenous was shrinking.

I can partially agree that Islam isn't very peaceful, there is a faction in Islam that is very vocal and feels the entire world needs to be converted to Islam, or else. Hell, I out and out do NOT trust Muslims. They've earned a repuation for violence, I think.

But that's what is wrong with the world, we as humans are not tolerant of each other.

Originally posted by nport2
But that's what is wrong with the world, we as humans are not tolerant of each other.

And this is amply demonstrated by the first two posts in this thread.

Living in France, I can tell you that this muslim problem is far overrated. The huge majority of muslim people cause no trouble and "integrate" very well. I live in a neighborhood populated by many muslim people (and chinese too) and it's absolutely peaceful. What bugs me is the racist reaction from some french people.

Vaalon, where do you live ? I guess that english is not your native language. Maybe you could share with us your personal experience to explain how you formed your opinion on muslims.

Astrapol2, no matter where I live. It's Europe. How do you know English isn't my native language ?
I've once had an opportunity to talk to some muslims. I was really into why it was forbidden to build christian churches in their countries. They said the law there was based on the Koran and according to the Koran there was no place for other religions.
It's unfair, innit ?
I happened to hear a talk between two arabs. They were talkin about how bad were Europe and states just because everyone was allowed freedom of choice. What do ya think would Europe look like if it was ruled by muslims (which is quite possible in the distant future) ???
Then you would see what intollerance is.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Living in France, I can tell you that this muslim problem is far overrated. The huge majority of muslim people cause no trouble and "integrate" very well. I live in a neighborhood populated by many muslim people (and chinese too) and it's absolutely peaceful. What bugs me is the racist reaction from some french people.

Vaalon, where do you live ? I guess that english is not your native language. Maybe you could share with us your personal experience to explain how you formed your opinion on muslims.


Yes, it is absolutely peacful, as long as you keep your eyes closed.

The anti-Semitism has created a threat to the physical safety for French Jews. Almost every week, some Jews get mugged, simply for being Jews. Almost nobody pays attention to it. When an anti-Semitic act is so disgusting it is impossible to hide it, journalists will speak of "confrontation between communities." When confronted with the reality that these "confrontations" are always Muslims attacking Jews, the editorial response: "Just because there has yet to be a single documented case of a Jew attacking a Muslim yet doesn't mean it will never happen. . . ."

And Jews are not the only victims of France's new identification with radical Islam. In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed. Almost every month, a young woman is mugged and raped in a suburb of a big city. Gang rape has become so frequent that a new word, used by the rapists themselves to define their hideous actions, is used by everybody: tournantes (revolving). To the rapists, the woman is nothing, a mere object to be thrown away after use. The people who speak about "revolving" seem to forget a human being is involved as the victim. Policemen do nothing. Every decent person knows the problem is Islam, but no one dares to say it. It could be dangerous. The streets are not safe.


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6976

Originally posted by Vaalon
Astrapol2, no matter where I live. It's Europe.

It matters because you speak like if you perfectly knew the situation in all Europe. And more precisely in France.
Originally posted by Vaalon

How do you know English isn't my native language ?


"Islam is a faulse religion" "follow him to conquere Mecca "
These may be just typing mistakes but it seems to me the kind of mistakes someone used to a latin language could commit. Correct me if i'm wrong (BTWi don't see why you would not like to say where you are from - but that's your problem).

Originally posted by Vaalon

I've once had an opportunity to talk to some muslims. I was really into why it was forbidden to build christian churches in their countries.

Once ? And you pretend that Europe is invaded and that you know what muslims in Europe think and want ? Maybe you should start investigating a little bit more rather than basing your opinion on one encounter.


About the churches topic : there are indeed christian churches and communities in most muslims countries. Palestine, Iraq, Syria, North Africa, Lebanon, Egypt, even Iran. in fact I guess apart from Afghanistan and Sudan, christians are present in all the muslim world, and they have been there for centuries.

If you consider it is normal that christians are allowed to build churches in muslim countries, you should also accept the fact that muslim are allowed to build mosques in Europe, shouldn't you ?

Originally posted by Vaalon
I've once had an opportunity to talk to some muslims.[/B]

Make that twice :) hello there, how ya doin?

Originally posted by Vaalon
They do NOT respect the european tradition,culture and rules.

Really? Why do you say so? What have they done?
I've been to Europe on numerous occassions, and if being peaceful and causing no one any harm is considered disrespectful, I'll be sure to cause a nuisance the next time I'm there.

Originally posted by old-reb
always Muslims attacking Jews
So no Christian's attack Jews?

Originally posted by Darth Be'lal
I can partially agree that Islam isn't very peaceful, there is a faction in Islam that is very vocal and feels the entire world needs to be converted to Islam, or else.

And you're basing your aforementioned statement on........?
There's a specific verse in the Koran that says that whoever chooses to take a different religion is to be treated with the same respect that Muslim's have for each other.
Get ur facts right ;) b4 making false accusations.

Originally posted by old-reb
France's new identification with radical Islam.

You said it yourself: "new identification".

Originally posted by astrapol2
It matters because you speak like if you perfectly knew the situation in all Europe. And more precisely in France.

*claps*








:)

VÉNISSIEUX, France - This town's largest mosque is temporarily leaderless, after its chief cleric was expelled from France last week for advocating wife beating, stoning and other medieval Islamic views at odds with the principles of the modern French state.

The cleric, Abdelkader Bouziane, was the fifth cleric expelled from France this year on charges that they were spreading a dangerously divisive brand of radical Islam. The country has kicked out dozens since 2001.

"The government cannot tolerate the public statement of views that are contrary to human rights, attack the dignity of women and call for hate or violence," the country's new interior minister, Dominique de Villepin, said last weekend.

France has long maintained one of the strictest antiterrorism programs in Europe, in part because it was hit early by Islamist terror and because it has the largest Muslim population on the Continent. Many other countries in Europe have been far more tolerant in allowing radical discourse to flourish in their mosques.



But extreme fundamentalist congregations in Vénissieux and other working-class suburbs east of Lyon, France's second-largest urban center, have produced violent militants in the past.

In September 1995, the police killed an Algerian Islamist in a shootout near Lyon after recovering his fingerprints from an unexploded bomb found on the tracks of the high-speed rail line between Lyon and Paris. The man was believed to have been behind a spate of bombings that had terrorized Paris earlier that year.

In January this year, the police arrested six men from Vénissieux who were suspected of being part of a terrorist group linked to Al Qaeda that had planned a chemical weapons attack in Paris in 2002.

Two Vénissieux men, meanwhile, are among those people taken prisoner two years ago in Afghanistan and who are now detained at the United States naval station in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.



http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7081-.html

old reb

^ they're either not well-educated about Islam, or have twisted words to suit their own ways and acted on them.

It's a sin, it's not in Islam :)

"Faulse" and "conquere" are typing errors.Of course,the correct forms are "false" and "conquer". I'm used to typing quickly and it seems to me that I didn't notice those mistakes.Anyway,thanks for correcting me.

I met alot of muslim people on my way but I didn't talk to everyone, is that clear ?

Are you so stupid as to pretend that Europe isn't being invaded by arabs ?? Don't you see that ? Or maybe you're blind ?
They want to boot us out of 'ere. For the time being they are in the minority. It's a matter of time when they are in the majority. If you doubt the truth read the old-reb's post.
We must prevent it. It can't happen but anything's possilbe.

As for churches in muslim countries,I agree there are churches in Lebanon (about 50% of citizens are christian), Palestine (a land where Jesus was born,so it's logical that there must be some churches there as well as synagogues), Iraq (there are a couple of churches but they were built when saddam was in power.As far as I know he was an ateist). As for North Africa and Iran, I dunno where ya got the information from but it seems a bit impossible. What about Saudi Arabia ? Did you know they behead everyone whose gonna change their faith into a non-muslim one ?

Did you know they behead everyone whose gonna change their faith into a non-muslim one ?

What a load of BULLS***!!!

Word of advice:
Before accusing, research your facts!

And btw, there ARE many Churches in the gulf too!

Perfect example of the conflict that man-made religions have caused on this earth. Growing up watching the "believers" of the Christian religion trying to carry their religion into every nation on earth without regard to local religions, I cannot understand hard feelings when other religions try the same thing.
How do you think the citizens of other countries have felt over the centuries when Christians were knocking on their doors telling them how "wrong" their religions were? I am sure they did, and many still do, feel that they are being invaded.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Perfect example of the conflict that man-made religions have caused on this earth. Growing up watching the "believers" of the Christian religion trying to carry their religion into every nation on earth without regard to local religions, I cannot understand hard feelings when other religions try the same thing.
How do you think the citizens of other countries have felt over the centuries when Christians were knocking on their doors telling them how "wrong" their religions were? I am sure they did, and many still do, feel that they are being invaded.

It was Omar who brought almost the entire Middle East under the sword of Islam. In 638, after commanding some of the most brutal campaigns in history and destroying Jewish and Christian populations in numerous towns and cities, Omar finally wrested Jerusalem from Byzantium (Christian) rule.

When the Byzantine patriarch Sophronius surrendered the city to the caliph, he handed over the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The two men signed an agreement whereby the Arabs would permit Christian civil and religious freedom in the city, and the Christians would pay tribute for the privilege.

Control of the Christian holy sites was kept firmly in the hands of the Muslims. The Omariya treaty contained the added condition that Jews not be permitted to live in the city.


http://christianactionforisrael.org...97/marafat.html

Yes, another fine example of man-made religions and beliefs causing strife in early days.
This crap has probably been going on since one cave man hit another in the head with a rock after an arguement as to whether the sun or moon was God.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Yes, another fine example of man-made religions and beliefs causing strife in early days.
This crap has probably been going on since one cave man hit another in the head with a rock after an arguement as to whether the sun or moon was God. You keep referring to "man made religions". Are there other religions not created by man? Or is this just your way of snidely and indirectly showing us how we are wasting our time "believing" in God?

Hovok, I call religions man made because members of religions have spoken to me of their religion as God's word, God's true religion,God's people, God's this and that, etc. These are religions of man, for man, and by man for various reasons. Hundreds of religions, yet most claim to be of God,[by some prophet usually] and are the one and only link to God.
There-fore not being able to distinguish which of these many, many religions is of God, by God, I call them all man-made for I believe all of them are just that. Created to serve a need without regard to the damage or ill feelings they may create upon the people of the earth by being different from their earthly neighbor's belief.
I see no participation of God in any of these religions. Only Man.

Religion is a power or force that we need and will have. But this force like fire or nuclear force can be used of good or for evil. Christianaty was too strong when used as a theological government but it has been changed and tamed.

Islam seems to be going backwards to religious total control and loss of freedom.

In the West we have so much freedom that we abort most of our children and now have a shortage of people. The Muslims would never abort a baby and now they have excess population to fill our void from aborting our own children. Are we destorying our culture by not keeping our children and causing a demand for people from another culture?

old reb

all religions have violent fundemantalists, and some are more prominent than others at different points in history. radical muslims ahppen to have taken center stagr right now, nut it isn't a prblem confined to any one religion. the real problem is that we can't just tolerate each others cultures, and coexist peacefully. it's everyone's right to practics their relgion, retain their culture, and live anywhere they choose. so what if europe becomes more muslim? people move, demographics change, and we have to deal with it, being hateful towards those who are different will only make our live,s and others, more difficult, and the world a less peaceful place.

It's absolutely amazing how whacked out so many muslims are in all the different countries...... Then someone who claims to be an "authority" on muslims/islam makes some weak ass excuse for the behavior of the "radical" few.... Call a spade a spade..... Asstropal, you might be muslim if.... you know how it goes... Cut the PC, weak kneed BS..... Old Reb is hittin the nail on the head again..... If there is any unrest in any nation or region and "religiously" motivated, ya don't have to look far to find some muslim "cleric" spoutin religious freedom ilk for islami......then innocent women and children get bombed..... Innocent Sweety, you're a prop....... no two ways about it.....
GOD BLESS AMERICA

For me the problem about Islam is the hughe power clerics (imans) have over their people. Anybody who does not agree with the clerics'interpretation of Koran is dammed and deserves to be killed (the famous fatwas).
So no matter the position of moderates muslims in Europe, they will always be overruled by the fundamentalists.
It's a pitty, I have met quite some moderates muslims but they are afraid to talk in their communities, they only feel save talking about interpretation of Koran to infidels.

[b]Originally posted by NoFlakjacket[/i]
Innocent Sweety, you're a prop

^ explain that?


Anybody who does not agree with the clerics'interpretation of Koran is dammed and deserves to be killed (the famous fatwas).


Actually, you just do what you think is right. The Mufti's are just there to make a fatwa about new cases, such as cloning...etc...
Who says you're damned and deserve to be killed? It's like in the French case where the famous Egyptian Mufti made a "fatwa" about it being un-sinful for a woman to show her hair in France.
Okay fine, make him live with his wife and daughters there, do ya think he'll agree to it?
OF COURSE NOT!
I think he might've been paid to do it. That's what people who are weak at heart do.
My God you should've seen how angry all the Muslims were!!! How could he?! On what basis did he make his fatwa?! He didn't even give a reason! He just repeated this sentence three times "It is their right"



:)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety




The Mufti's are just there to make a fatwa about new cases, such as cloning...etc...
Who says you're damned and deserve to be killed? It's like in the French case where the famous Egyptian Mufti made a "fatwa" about it being un-sinful for a woman to show her hair in France.
Okay fine, make him live with his wife and daughters there, do ya think he'll agree to it?
OF COURSE NOT!
I think he might've been paid to do it. That's what people who are weak at heart do.
My God you should've seen how angry all the Muslims were!!! How could he?! On what basis did he make his fatwa?! He didn't even give a reason! He just repeated this sentence three times "It is their right"



:)

So it is sinful for a woman to show her hair in France. To show their hair will make Muslims all over the world angry.

old reb

It's sinful for a Muslim woman to show her hair ANYWHERE.
Many Muslim women show their hair, this doesn't make Muslim's angry...What angers us are the restrictions to practice our religion.

Innocent Sweety, you said that many muslim women showed their hair and it didn't make muslims angry. Are you dreamin' or what ? I have never seen a muslim woman without a sheet on her head. Maybe some of them want to take it off but they're scared of being beaten by their husbands or uncles ??

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
What a load of BULLS***!!!

Word of advice:
Before accusing, research your facts!

I don't claim to be an expert, but that was actually the position of one self-proclaimed muslim on this board. I believe he cited the Koran to support his belief. (you can probably find it in the archives of the "religion" thread)

The point is that some muslims apparently do believe in beheading people based on their religious preference, even if it is not a widely-shared belief.

I have been hearing stories of American Troops and Special Operations Groups using a pig oil based weapons lube called Blackjack Pigg, www.blackjackpigg.com, in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's supposed to deny the radical Islamic Terrorist entry into Paradise and no 72 virgins.

I hope it's true and every bullet sent down range to the bad guys is laced with this stuff.

Blackjack Pershing was on the money when he did it and I hope all our guys have it in their packs.

Originally posted by Desert Wookie
I have been hearing stories of American Troops and Special Operations Groups using a pig oil based weapons lube called Blackjack Pigg, www.blackjackpigg.com, in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's supposed to deny the radical Islamic Terrorist entry into Paradise and no 72 virgins.

I hope it's true and every bullet sent down range to the bad guys is laced with this stuff.

Blackjack Pershing was on the money when he did it and I hope all our guys have it in their packs.

Your link doesn't work...I suspect it's because you have a comma in it.

http://www.blackjackpigg.com/index.htm

At any rate I think what you heard is just a story because the website says that ammunition is not yet available, and it's not on their list of stuff to order.

BTW, Blackjack Pershing was the american general in command of the American Expeditionary Forces in WWI, so I'm not sure why you mentioned him.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Your link doesn't work...I suspect it's because you have a comma in it.

http://www.blackjackpigg.com/index.htm

At any rate I think what you heard is just a story because the website says that ammunition is not yet available, and it's not on their list of stuff to order.

BTW, Blackjack Pershing was the american general in command of the American Expeditionary Forces in WWI, so I'm not sure why you mentioned him.

Vile, check your research on "Blackjack Pershing"..... good stuff.
Innocentsheety, your new and refreshing data on muslims/islam/and other various ilk is so interesting..... I can't stop myself from reading your posts......

Originally posted by Vaalon
I have never seen a muslim woman without a sheet on her head. Maybe some of them want to take it off but they're scared of being beaten by their husbands or uncles ??


Once again : where do you live ? In Afghanistan aor Saudi arabia maybe ? Cause here in France, most muslim women don't use a scarf - some do but that's their choice.

It's funny how some people here try to explain Islam to Innocent Sweety, or try to explain the situation in France to me !

I am not denying that some muslims fundamentalists are trying to spread hate and dangerous ideas. But as whammybar wrote, they are not the only religious fanatics in the world !

When reading the post about pig oil used as lubricant on weapons, I cant' help thinking Iraq war is really seen as a holy crusade by some americans. That's not precisely the kind of info that will make iraqi people love their "saviors".

Originally posted by Vaalon
Innocent Sweety, you said that many muslim women showed their hair and it didn't make muslims angry. Are you dreamin' or what ? I have never seen a muslim woman without a sheet on her head. Maybe some of them want to take it off but they're scared of being beaten by their husbands or uncles ??

And maybe YOU should come here, see all the Muslim women who don't wear a "sheet" on their head and THEN speak. Vaalon, we don't cover ourselves by bedsheets.
In the end it's their choice whether they want to cover up or not, knowing in the process that if they're not covered up they're commiting a sin.
I don't deny that some women are forced but that's a sin in itself too.

Just because you've never seen a Muslim woman without something on her head doesn't mean they don't exist. You don't see God, but you know He exists!

Originally posted by NoFlakjacket
Innocentsheety, your new and refreshing data on muslims/islam/and other various ilk is so interesting..... I can't stop myself from reading your posts......

You just :) made my day.

Originally posted by astrapol2
When reading the post about pig oil used as lubricant on weapons, I cant' help thinking Iraq war is really seen as a holy crusade by some americans. That's not precisely the kind of info that will make iraqi people love their "saviors".

I couldn't agree more.
I thought that was disgusting, I mean what point are they trying to prove?!

Originally posted by Vaalon
Innocent Sweety, you said that many muslim women showed their hair and it didn't make muslims angry. Are you dreamin' or what ? I have never seen a muslim woman without a sheet on her head. Maybe some of them want to take it off but they're scared of being beaten by their husbands or uncles ??

im sorry to burst ur bubble Vaalon but im a muslim girl myself and i do not wear ur so cold sheets on my head, just becuase u dont recognize them as muslims dosent mean they all dont wear
Valoon u have no room to speak about msulims just becuase u heard a couple of arabs talking about europe dosent mean we all view them this way, so am i suppose to get a very bad idea about ur religon!
please reaserch before u speak becuase ur mouth could get u into trouble

Originally posted by silence03

please reaserch before u speak becuase ur mouth could get u into trouble

Yes, we are very well aware of what can happen when someone insults a religion of peace. Look at what happened to Van Gogh.

old reb

Oh My, is a Vaalon Jihad being threatened?

Originally posted by astrapol2
Once again : where do you live ? In Afghanistan aor Saudi arabia maybe ? Cause here in France, most muslim women don't use a scarf - some do but that's their choice.

It's funny how some people here try to explain Islam to Innocent Sweety, or try to explain the situation in France to me !

I am not denying that some muslims fundamentalists are trying to spread hate and dangerous ideas. But as whammybar wrote, they are not the only religious fanatics in the world !

When reading the post about pig oil used as lubricant on weapons, I cant' help thinking Iraq war is really seen as a holy crusade by some americans. That's not precisely the kind of info that will make iraqi people love their "saviors".

It's interesting that YOU would say something like that....
maybe you shouldn't try to explain or comment on American ideals.... hmmmm

Originally posted by silence03
please reaserch before u speak becuase ur mouth could get u into trouble What kind of trouble? I mean, this is a place where we share our opinions. Even if they are wrong, you dont get into trouble, just ridiculed. Or are you making some sort of vague threat?

Originally posted by silence03
please reaserch before u speak becuase ur mouth could get u into trouble

What kind of trouble?
Sis, the man is expressing his opinion, be it right or wrong. Don't you think he has a right?
You just have to express yours, don't make threats.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Once again : where do you live ? In Afghanistan aor Saudi arabia maybe ? Cause here in France, most muslim women don't use a scarf - some do but that's their choice.

It's funny how some people here try to explain Islam to Innocent Sweety, or try to explain the situation in France to me !



Well then explain to me:
I have watched on TV the massive demonstrations against the scarf law in the schools in France. It didn't look like a few women. There were a lot of them and all of them with scarfs (I don't say they don't it by choice but there were a lot).
Also when visiting France I have seen almost all girls of Norht-african origin with scarfs.

In The Netherlands all muslims women use scarfs...maybe only 5% don't use it.

Its everywhere that these people where their scarfs. . . . Its very TRadition for them.

They seem to be the largest group that i know of that follow there older traditions very closely.

Agent Day
Neo Conservative Manifesto

Originally posted by Teddy
Well then explain to me:
I have watched on TV the massive demonstrations against the scarf law in the schools in France. It didn't look like a few women. There were a lot of them and all of them with scarfs (I don't say they don't it by choice but there were a lot).
Also when visiting France I have seen almost all girls of Norht-african origin with scarfs.

In The Netherlands all muslims women use scarfs...maybe only 5% don't use it.

It is the duty of Muslim men to rape and beat women who do not dress properly, they are considerd whores and sluts.


Apparently, the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by "non-Western" immigrants – a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims.

The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (who was described as having "lived for many years in Muslim countries") as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. One reason for the high number of rapes by Muslims, explained the professor, was that in their native countries "rape is scarcely punished," since Muslims "believe that it is women who are responsible for rape." The professor's conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."

Ah, yes, the localized application of "blame the West first, because Third World peoples can never be morally in the wrong." Where would the Left be without that central animating principle? Please pass a dash of cultural and moral relativism to season.

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/002566.php
old reb

Teddy

In France, it's against the law to practice your religion. Muslim women wearing a scarf is considered against the law.

Agent Day

No, not tradition. Religion is being followed here, nothing traditional about it.

old-reb

Originally posted by old-reb
It is the duty of Muslim men to rape and beat women who do not dress properly, they are considerd whores and sluts.


What are you basing this on?
No, it is NOT the duty of Muslim men to rape and beat women who do not dress properly. It is a sin to do so! No one is to be forced to do anything. I'm not denying that these things actually happen, I admit they do, but I still stand on it being a sin.
Women who do not wear scarves are NOT considered whores and sluts! That's like saying women who don't go to Church every week are considered whores and sluts, or women who aren't nuns are considered that.

in their native countries "rape is scarcely punished," since Muslims "believe that it is women who are responsible for rape."

Rape is scarcely punished in ANY native country. The excuse used everywhere is "women are responsible for rape."
This has nothing to do with religion.

Originally posted by Teddy
Well then explain to me:
I have watched on TV the massive demonstrations against the scarf law in the schools in France. It didn't look like a few women. There were a lot of them and all of them with scarfs (I don't say they don't it by choice but there were a lot).
Also when visiting France I have seen almost all girls of Norht-african origin with scarfs.

In The Netherlands all muslims women use scarfs...maybe only 5% don't use it.

Is there a big Muslim community in the Netherlands ? I don't remember having seen many, but maybe i didn't go in the right areas.

About France : I never said all muslim women don't wear scarves. Of course, some do, and this nimber has increased during the last decade. But nobody can say it's a majority.
If you go in some areas where many women wear scarves, it may seem that all muslim women do so. But in fact it's also beacause you don't notice muslim women dressed like western women, and there are a lot.

^ i agree...
and the women who wear scarves always look more obvious than the ones who don't

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
[color=firebrick]Teddy

In France, it's against the law to practice your religion. Muslim women wearing a scarf is considered against the law.



Once more i have to correct this ! it's absolutely false. In fact france not only allows everyone to practice it religion freely, but it has usually been quite supportice of muslims and many mosques have been built these last years.
Of course, scarves for muslim women are not banned. As i said in the previous post, many muslim women choose to wera one, while many other prfer not to do so.
The law only sets rules about school wear. nobody is allowed to wear "obvious" religious signs in piblic school - this includes jewish kippa or christian cross if it's used as a "propaganda" tool (hard to define !). I don't think this is a relevant law, but that's way different from banning muslim scarf !

Thanks for clarifiying that then.

I just remembered a Mufti who said that it wasn't a sin to not wear a scarf in France, and from there :) our assumptions were made. (and anger :P also)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Teddy

In France, it's against the law to practice your religion. Muslim women wearing a scarf is considered against the law.

[

I didn't say that Innocent Sweety...

In France is against the law to wear scarf at school (because of their strong belief on seperation of education and religion), but they can wear scarves in any other place: the street, public transport, cafes, their homes, hospitals, etc...

Originally posted by astrapol2
Is there a big Muslim community in the Netherlands ? I don't remember having seen many, but maybe i didn't go in the right areas.

About France : I never said all muslim women don't wear scarves. Of course, some do, and this nimber has increased during the last decade. But nobody can say it's a majority.
If you go in some areas where many women wear scarves, it may seem that all muslim women do so. But in fact it's also beacause you don't notice muslim women dressed like western women, and there are a lot.

Yes, it is very big number (I think 10% of the population and in some major cities as Amsterdam and Rotterdam around 40%) and growing (in 2002 in Amsterdam the most used name for new borns was Mohammed). And the religion centers with highest attandance in the country are the Mosques.

Here the use of the scarf has increased in the last decade too. Specially since most of the imanes are paid by Saudi Arabian organisations (with a more traditionalists view of the Islam). Now it is not only about women, they are "imposing"more and more the use of the scarf from 7 years old.

According to most statistics available on the internet, muslims would be between 3 and 6% of Netherlands population - comparable to France's.
But i couldn't find where they come from. Are they from north Africa or Asia ?

Originally posted by astrapol2
According to most statistics available on the internet, muslims would be between 3 and 6% of Netherlands population - comparable to France's.
But i couldn't find where they come from. Are they from north Africa or Asia ?

6%? maybe it is true I know that the inmigrant population over here is hughe, maybe 6% are muslims and the rest are other religions/ethnic groups. However about the new-borns name it is 100% true for sure; it was big news here.

They are mainly from North-Africa and Turkey, the Indonesians who came to live here were mainly part of the Christian minority (they did have when they were a Dutch colony) and they have been in the country for two generations already.

Out of curiosity...

Why is this such a problem? That many Muslims have come out in France and other regions?

It's like an insult :confused: to you guys

For, me it's absolutely not a problem. In fact I like the idea that people from many cultures are living together in the same country.
The city where I live has long been a big industrial center. It has been attracting several waves of immigration for more than one century, and three generations of people from many origins live in my neighborhood.

Just by walking a few minutes away from my house, I can buy a thai curry, italian pasta, moroccan couscous, cambodian nems, polish cakes, portuguese bacalao, chinese noodles, african mangos or even some fresh french baguette ! :)

It's true though that there is also some racism in France, like in most countries. But still the various communities still get on quite well, and mix together.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Out of curiosity...

Why is this such a problem? That many Muslims have come out in France and other regions?

It's like an insult :confused: to you guys


Sweety,
I am concerned about Musim immigrants in Europe because I fear losing the hard won freedom that Westerners enjoy today.

While the rank and file Muslim comes only to enjoy the good life afforded by Western Culture Countries. They bring with them the seeds of fundamentalist Islamics. Mostly Muslim immigrants don't fully intergrate into Western society because that would break up their own Culture. A culture where religion rules the government and not vice versa. Free speech is also harmful to the Islamic cause, so it must be controlled by the immigrant community. This can be done by a few selected murders like Van Gogh. The goal is Islamic conquest of the host country. I personally don't want to live in a society where any religion rules the government and controls every aspect of my life, like dress codes, praying 5 times a day, etc. etc. Today in Thialand there is a small Islamic society that won't intergrate but they want to break off the host country and create an Islamic country out of part of Thialand. This process is going on all over the globe. Some places are seeing the Islamics cleaning up the last Kafirs and some places it is just starting.


xxxxxxxxxxxx
The killing of Theo van Gogh is a textbook case of what happens when a tolerant but confused society takes political correctness to its illogical extreme. For Mohammed B. did not choose terrorism all by himself. He was indoctrinated and recruited in a mosque where he was pumped full of the Wahabbi doctrine "predominant in Saudi Arabia." The murder of van Gogh was an instant replay of the many murders carried out by Zarqawi and his followers in Iraq, extolled by fanatical Muslim Imams. As Allam reminds us, not all mosques are fundamentalist, extremist, or terrorist, but all the fundamentalists, extremists, and terrorists got that way in mosques.


http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200411101620.asp

Yeah astrapol2 I agree, I personally encourage diversity.

old-reb, unless the Muslim population of "radicals" increase, then I don't think you have much to worry about. Remember that Dubai is a Muslim city, yet the diversity is enormous. No one harms another, there's freedom here.

I Would Personal like to say on behave of my friend that works in Toronto (a very diverse city) that he has told me that he sometimes doesn't feel safe then the muslim men are unpredictible and that with tradition they care a knife (can't remember name)

He has told me many times, there are times when we cares a large hammer in his back pocket when helping them with something.

Agent Day
Neo Conservative Manifesto
"Dubya's Secret Police"

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Agent Day
I Would Personal like to say on behave of my friend that works in Toronto (a very diverse city) that he has told me that he sometimes doesn't feel safe then the muslim men are unpredictible and that with tradition they care a knife (can't remember name)

He has told me many times, there are times when we cares a large hammer in his back pocket when helping them with something.

Agent Day
Neo Conservative Manifesto
"Dubya's Secret Police"

You're friend is being paranoid, Agent Day. Not all Muslims are out to get you. In fact, the majority wouldn't go as far as to kill you or your family. Though some are devoted to attacking the US.

I've been living in neighborhoods with very important immigrant population, both in Paris and Lille, for years. i've been walking in the streets alone a lot, even at night, and my girlfriend too.

We've never been victims or witness of any trouble. There are paranoid people everywhere, in France too, and when we said we were living in these neoghborhoods some couldn't help warn it wasn't safe. That's just racism in disguise IMO.

Originally posted by CX returns
You're friend is being paranoid, Agent Day. Not all Muslims are out to get you. In fact, the majority wouldn't go as far as to kill you or your family. Though some are devoted to attacking the US. LMFAO...Yeah, you're safe as long as you're Canadian. They only want to kill Americans. Are you a muslim CX?

Originally posted by Vaalon
There are more and more muslims in Europe and that is terryfying me,really. What's the worst of all is their starting to act like Europe was their home. They do NOT respect the european tradition,culture and rules. The best of all would be to kick'em out of Europe and to errect a huge wall isolating ur beautiuful continent from muslim deserts. Oh yeah, deserts are the best place for that muslim plague. You, arabs, must know that we're not gonna be easy with you. Either you assimilate into our culture and standards or you go back to the sand land.
And by the way, I think Islam is a faulse religion. What you believe in is a bullshit. Mohammed created Islam cos he wanted to take over the power. It was the only way he could make people follow him to conquere Mecca or soemthing like that (I don't remember exactly what city it was).
So how can Islam be a peaceful religion if it was created while fighting ??
The answer is it cant ... :mad:

You can't be serious here? I am all for Bush, the War on Terror and the whole bit, but there is no way I'm going to believe that YOU actually believe this nonsense yourself.

This post has to be a joke.

...Either you assimilate into our culture and standards or you go back to the sand land...

Very funny dude! However, way to stir up some discussion! You would be great on my board!

Click Here To See My Board (rightview.proboards38.com)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Out of curiosity...

Why is this such a problem? That many Muslims have come out in France and other regions?

It's like an insult :confused: to you guys

I actually find the French more offensive than I do Arabs.

Originally posted by HaVoK
LMFAO...Yeah, you're safe as long as you're Canadian. They only want to kill Americans. Are you a muslim CX?

The thing is, Canada has done nothing (at least to my knowledge) to piss off any Arab country, whereas the staes have invaded Iraq and left it's city without proper drinking water or power to power water management facilities, bombed the crap outta Afganastan, and have supported the isreals against the Muslims. And no, im not a Muslim. I'm a Canadian Atheist/Freethinker.

Well stil, living in a Large Canadian City, it is still possible for one of these people to go wacho on you with a bat, hammer or a knife.

On a side note, Yes i'm friend is very parinod

I'm also Canadian and a Neo-Conservative.

Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
You can't be serious here? I am all for Bush, the War on Terror and the whole bit, but there is no way I'm going to believe that YOU actually believe this nonsense yourself.

This post has to be a joke.



Very funny dude! However, way to stir up some discussion! You would be great on my board!

Click Here To See My Board (rightview.proboards38.com)

Hello Secret,

People like Vaalon,
Know what is going on and get all riled up and when people deny what is happening it makes them even mader. That is the way the Serbs acted while their lands were being stolen. They want to do something to equal what the terrorist are doing.

By the way, Secret,

I looked at your board and it is so secret that I am not authorized to read any post. What U hidding there?

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Secret,

People like Vaalon,
Know what is going on and get all riled up and when people deny what is happening it makes them even mader. That is the way the Serbs acted while their lands were being stolen. They want to do something to equal what the terrorist are doing.

By the way, Secret,

I looked at your board and it is so secret that I am not authorized to read any post. What U hidding there?

old reb

No secrets at my board. You just have to be a member to view the threads. You should join up, it's free!
;)

Originally posted by CX returns
The thing is, Canada has done nothing (at least to my knowledge) to piss off any Arab country, whereas the staes have invaded Iraq and left it's city without proper drinking water or power to power water management facilities, bombed the crap outta Afganastan, and have supported the isreals against the Muslims. And no, im not a Muslim. I'm a Canadian Atheist/Freethinker.

Hey CX,

You say you are a freethinker but yet, you fail to see that we are trying to build water, sewage, electrical facilities but the terrorist keep blowing them up.

U got it all backwards. Wake up and smell the roses.

The Israelis want peace but the Palestines will not even stop attacks on Israel long enough for peace talks to take place. Israel has now agreed to talk peace while Pals still attack Israel.

old reb

It's the "... if I tell you I have to kill you ... " paranoid fantasy land of Secret.

Originally posted by astrapol2
I've been living in neighborhoods with very important immigrant population, both in Paris and Lille, for years. i've been walking in the streets alone a lot, even at night, and my girlfriend too.

We've never been victims or witness of any trouble. There are paranoid people everywhere, in France too, and when we said we were living in these neoghborhoods some couldn't help warn it wasn't safe. That's just racism in disguise IMO.

Hello Astra,

Would you like a job selling vioxx? You would paint a glowing picture of your product. I bring links to articles where there is trouble and others give personal experiences but you say all is well.

If you went to Washington DC and didn't see GW Bush, would you tell everybody that he wasn't there just because you didn't see him?

old reb

Originally posted by es347fan
It's the "... if I tell you I have to kill you ... " paranoid fantasy land of Secret. :( ;) :p :rolleyes: :eek: :) :D :D

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Astra,

Would you like a job selling vioxx? You would paint a glowing picture of your product. I bring links to articles where there is trouble and others give personal experiences but you say all is well.

If you went to Washington DC and didn't see GW Bush, would you tell everybody that he wasn't there just because you didn't see him?

old reb

Old Reb, maybe your personal experience with muslim is different from mine. But from what I know, what I have seen and all the muslim people I have met (that includes people from many countries, from Tunisia to Palestine) they are not different from anyone.

Now I don't say there are no problem at all with muslim people, but honestly I don't feel their very existence as a threat !

Fear of immigrants seems to have always existed, in all countries. Always the exact same stories : "they are too different from us, their religion is not the same, they have too many children, they will alter our traditions and culture, they are violent, they are just here to benefit from our standard of living…" Its was said of the italian or irish people in 1900. The exact same thing. Even the religious arguments -italien people were considered as being "too catholic !"

Originally posted by astrapol2
Old Reb, maybe your personal experience with muslim is different from mine. But from what I know, what I have seen and all the muslim people I have met (that includes people from many countries, from Tunisia to Palestine) they are not different from anyone.

Now I don't say there are no problem at all with muslim people, but honestly I don't feel their very existence as a threat !

Fear of immigrants seems to have always existed, in all countries. Always the exact same stories : "they are too different from us, their religion is not the same, they have too many children, they will alter our traditions and culture, they are violent, they are just here to benefit from our standard of living…" Its was said of the italian or irish people in 1900. The exact same thing. Even the religious arguments -italien people were considered as being "too catholic !"

I had one Muslim friend and I was considering converting to Islam but when he told me that he would kill Salmon Rushdie on sight because of what some nut in Iran told him to do, I moved away from him and his nutty religion.
I went to pick my car up at a garage and a Big mechanic was steadly harrasing a Jew mechanic about Israel. I commented that peace will come when the Muslims kill the last Jew. The big mechanic picked up a big wrench and looked me straight in the eye, while breathing in my face he said, "The Christian Crusaiders killed more people than the muslims ever did." He went on to tell me that he lived in a muslim community and they were all peaceful. I looked him back in the eye and said,"Is my car ready, yet?"

So I met two Muslims. That will do me for a while.

old reb

Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
No secrets at my board. You just have to be a member to view the threads. You should join up, it's free!
;)

What is up with this? What a joke.

Sorry, only Administrators and Moderators can create new threads.

old reb

There will always be a number of fanatics in any religion that take their crazy beliefs to extremes. We have the evandelicals here in America that want us all to live by their particular interpretation of their scripture. We just elected one to the presidency. Then there are the fanatical muslims that want everyone to live by their particular interpretation of their scripture. Niether of these fanatical groups represent the majority of people from that particular religion. They are merely off shoot sects of a larger more reasonable faith. My personal belief is that religion is evil and robs one of their connection to their humanity and conscience. Most people will disagree with that but I think that everyone has to agree that fanatical religious beliefs are dangerous. Blowing up family planning clinics here in America is just as much an act of terrorism as any of the bombs set off in Iraq. Forcing people to only dress a certain way or only marry certain people because ones faith tells them to is religious fanaticism. Religion custom and tradition should not be forced upon those who do not believe in that religion.

Originally posted by old-reb
What is up with this? What a joke.

Sorry, only Administrators and Moderators can create new threads.

old reb

What are you talking about? Anyone who is a member should be able to create a new thread.

What board were you trying to post on? Maybe the settings are f**ked up?

Originally posted by Echo2
My personal belief is that religion is evil and robs one of their connection to their humanity and conscience. Most people will disagree with that but I think that everyone has to agree that fanatical religious beliefs are dangerous.

There are many things I don't like in both christian and muslim religions, but they are more related to what some people do in the name of their religions than to the very content of these religions.

Some of the people I most admire were very religious, and found in religion the energy and philsophy that made them true human beings.

Even if I'm atheist, I still consider that many messages from the Bible (mostly the evangiles) is a very positive and human message.

Don't forget that many of the secularist values - human rights, etc… are partly derived of religious values.

I agree with as regard of fanatics, of course. Too bad they are usually the most vocal communities.

Old Reb - you can't honestly base your opinion on muslims on two people. I've been reading your conversation with sarah and Innocent Sweety in the "Islam" thread, and you appeared much more open there. You may disagree with many things in Islam (I do too) but that does not mean muslims are bad people.

Originally posted by old-reb
I had one Muslim friend and I was considering converting to Islam but when he told me that he would kill Salmon Rushdie on sight because of what some nut in Iran told him to do, I moved away from him and his nutty religion.

My muslim uncle's about 50x more normal than his christian wife, so you can't put too much stock in the two people you met.

Its interesting that would all talk about this

Its also interesting that i have not seen this kind of "mind control" for a group of people getting others to do there dirty work since the days of hitler and his propaganda machine.,

Its also questionable the intent in the faces of these people what they truely wish to do to us and our families.

I do not trust these people, i don't even like to be seen around them

In my School, there are muslim girls who keep there head covered for there religion, i considered this to be against rules of the school on wearing items covering the head.

I believe we should all be reformed to a current dress code with no religion affecting it so that no one can be rasist to another of there jewish hat or their muslim cover.

The entire muslim community has been sullied by the actions of barbaric fanatics. The remainder of the muslim community remains under suspicion as insufficient numbers of them have taken the position that the barbarism is wrong. In this country, it will be many years before the situation changes, and probably not for the better. It is what it is.

Originally posted by astrapol2


Old Reb - you can't honestly base your opinion on muslims on two people. I've been reading your conversation with sarah and Innocent Sweety in the "Islam" thread, and you appeared much more open there. You may disagree with many things in Islam (I do too) but that does not mean muslims are bad people.

Sara and Sweety are non-offensive and I enjoy talking religion to them and like what I learn but I get confrontational with you because you deny that there is a problem and that makes me fight harder to prove there is a problem. Then I look back and realize I may be going to far. Because, I do want peace with our Muslim friends I just don't want Jihad coming to a town near me. We must have our eyes open to the plans of the radicals and keep it from happening.

old reb

Then i agree with you ! I am very aware of the danger of radical Islam, believe me. Maybe I give the impression of supporting islam whatsoever, which is not the case, it's just because sometimes i feel people criticize muslims without really knowing them. Of course those we call "muslims" are not onlyt defined by tjeir religions - it's like calling all westerners "christians".

Originally posted by astrapol2
Then i agree with you ! I am very aware of the danger of radical Islam, believe me. Maybe I give the impression of supporting islam whatsoever, which is not the case, it's just because sometimes i feel people criticize muslims without really knowing them.

While considering your other post, this is what I hear you saying: radical Islam is dangerous, you don't support Islam but you won't allow anyone to critize them.



Of course those we call "muslims" are not onlyt defined by tjeir religions - it's like calling all westerners "christians".

There is a big difference in Christians and Muslims, for one Islam orders the death of those who speak badly of Islam. In the USA half of the country spits out hate at Christians and accuses Bush of being a radical Christian but I have never heard him call for their destruction, as compared to the calling for ANY Muslim in the world to kill Salmon Rushdie for writing a book, or the killing of Van gogh for making a video exposing the Islamic treatment of women. The man who killed Van Gogh was a normal westernized Muslim until a radical Imam converted him to radical Islam and gave him his orders to execute Van. That in itself is scary. To think that the normal Muslim, you know today can be converted to a killing machine BY his religion.

The big problem for myself and many others is how to react to all this, some, like vaalon let out their animal emotion and go for the total war on muslms and some like yourself just bury your head in the sand and pretent that there is no problem.

The answer is somewhere in the middle.
Here is a pissed off man from the netharlands and I cut and paste him:
My 9 mm is cleaned and ready to fire.
I have a permit and i can aim quite well , i will shoot a motherfucker islamic monekys head of within 50 mtrs range with my trusty handgun, i practised shooting for that.

I am ready for them and if i have to go to jail for killing a motherfucking terrorist i will most gladly kill the motherfucker before he can do an act of terror.

Here is a more controlled response from a man in Belgium

Belgium is also shocked by the butchering of Theo Van Gogh. He was shot then stabbed, then his troath cut.
Holland was always an "example" of tolerance for the Belgian liberals and socialists. Now they are singing another tune. Liberal politicians want to take new measures against Muslim terrorists like more money for state police. (Right politicians say "didn't we say it?") and a revision of laws. Imams should be educated in and controlled by Belgian authorities, visa should be refused to Imams from Muslim countries and so on. While they always preached tolerance, now they say "integrate or leave".

Nice, but why it took them 30 years and many crimes committed by Muslims to realize that a multi-cultural society with an intolerant Islamism is impossible? And they call themselves "progressive". Rolling Eyes
_________________

Adding to the complexity of the situation is that we have important relationships with many muslim countries and Muslim people that are most valuable to us and to them. This is also used to cause us to measure our response to terrorism.

One can always find exemple of crimes committed in the name of Islam. These have to be fought of course, and once more I say fundamentalist Islam is dangerous. But it is in fact a very small part of Islam; and most muslims don't want to have anything to do with these people.

It's intersting you mention the murderer of van gogh. In fact many terrorists were "westernized" young muslim who got brainwashed by radical imams - it was the same for 9-11 terrorists. I heard an interview of a former CIA analyst who, since 9-11, dedicated himself to studying the psychological profile of these people. His findings were very interesting. Basically, he found out that two major factors were common to these guys :
- they were educated, "westernized" guys.
- but were also isolated, which made them an easy prey for radical imams, and most of all, allowed them to work collectively as a small group that growed its own madness, like in any isolated cult (Waco is another good example ; skinhead groups like those who recently desecrated jewish cemetaries in France another).
The CIA expert call this the "bunch of guys" syndrom : these young people start growing their own deadly ideal, and run out of control of other. They don't care about other people's opinion anymore, only their mad and twiwted set of values matters.
That'a a reason why I believe that it's important to work in our respective countries to improve relationships between communities. That does not mean being angelic, and we also need to be aware of any dangerous group, and react strongly against them.

I had one Muslim friend and I was considering converting to Islam but when he told me that he would kill Salmon Rushdie on sight because of what some nut in Iran told him to do, I moved away from him and his nutty religion.

Please don't base your view on one or two people. Do take the time to research about radical's and peaceful Muslims if you're really interested.
Salmon Rushdie I personally wouldn't do anything if I saw him, just stay away. Even though Iran did announce a fatwa, I still wouldn't do anything cause sometimes fatwa's can be wrong.

I do not trust these people, i don't even like to be seen around them

Why? :confused:

Islam orders the death of those who speak badly of Islam.

No it doesn't. It just orders that you defend your religion. Violent means are not meant by "defend", just that you stick up for your religion. Sadly, many people define things in their own twisted ways.

There is a big difference in Christians and Muslims

The differences are smaller than you think!

we also need to be aware of any dangerous group, and react strongly against them.

I agree!

This is a good thread for me because ever since 9/11, I have been searching for a way to respond to the radical Islam. I see 3 basic responses, there may be many more, but I see these 3 for now.

1) Do like Astrapo and do nothing.

2) Do like guy from Holland that I copied to this string. He is target practicing to kill some Muslim terrorist.

3)Do like the guy from Belgium that I copied to this string:
More money for state police
Revision of laws:
Imams educated in and controlled by Belgian authorities;
Visa refused to Imams from Muslim countries.
Intergrate or leave.


Here is what I see would be the results of each action.


1) Terrorism will continue and increase

2) How can he recognize a Muslim terrorist? he will probably go out and shoot some innocent Muslim and the result would be that the world will now focus on the Muslims as victims from crazy Nazi Belgium nut. This is the worst option of all.

3) This does not call for anybody to be physically harmed. It controls and stops the radical teachings and finally offers the final choice.
Now it would be hard to get these laws through, the would be hotly contested and there would be death threats to the law makers.


As a final word I don't think we have anywhere near the same problem in the USA that Holland has.

old reb

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Please don't base your view on one or two people. Do take the time to research about radical's and peaceful Muslims if you're really interested.
Salmon Rushdie I personally wouldn't do anything if I saw him, just stay away. Even though Iran did announce a fatwa, I still wouldn't do anything cause sometimes fatwa's can be wrong.



I am sure that every Muslim is different but the strangeness of these two individuals is the result of Islamic teaching.
1) the first guy was told by the aytollya to kill. That would not happen to a non muslim
2) The second hated Jews and was steadly harrasing a co-worker Jew. While Jew hating is taught in Islam, it is common all over the world to be racist against Jews.

If I had to base my opinion of Muslims based on sweety I would feel totaly comfortable with them.

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb

1) Do like Astrapo and do nothing.


Hey ! Where did you get that ? I never talked here about fighting terrorism, but about my general perception of average muslim people and what kind of relations "we" (westerners) should have with them.

If you want to know my position about terrorism, it is nearly the same as your favorite option, #3.

Of course anti terrorist police has to play a very important part, and fundamentalist imams and networks should be closelly watched and prevented to spread their ideology before it reaches muslim kids.

I would add : a sound social and cultural policy should be implemented so that muslim minorities feel they have a part to play in our society if they are willing to play its rules. Then young muslim people will not feel upseet and be so easy to manipulate by fundamentalists !

I am ready to discuss and precise this whenever you want, but don't say I advocate to "do nothing" - you could'nt be more wrong !

WARNING! WARNING!

Some rational person has taken over Astrapols computer and is talking sense.

Just joking.

How could it be that Frenchie and I are in agreement? It must be the second coming.

Very often two people argue like mad only to discover that they are really in agreement.

Anyway my position is fluid but getting more fixed as I assimilate more info.

old reb

Originally posted by es347fan
The entire muslim community has been sullied by the actions of barbaric fanatics. The remainder of the muslim community remains under suspicion as insufficient numbers of them have taken the position that the barbarism is wrong. In this country, it will be many years before the situation changes, and probably not for the better. It is what it is.

Think about it. If non-muslims are killed for speaking against Islamic cruelity to women, then what would happen to a Muslim who spoke against Muslim practices? After speaking publically he would have go back to the Mosque for prayers and the Imam would have some questions for him. Also, there is a death order on the Muslim woman who provided the info for the Van Gogh's dvd about muslim treatment of women.

I read about a palestine woman reporter for a western news media and she wrote an article that she thought was pro-palestine but the palestine leadership didn't like it and she was ordered to be given 50 lashes (if they could catch her) She responded by exposing their theats and they dropped the whipping charge as it was causing negative press instead of positive.

It is the religion of submission, and if you aren't submissive then you pay the price. Just a few months ago an Iranian 15 year old girl was given he death sentence for having a foul mouth. She was in court for a minor charge but she went on a triade about not liking Sharia law or the judge. -- I could find a link to the article if you wish.



old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
If I had to base my opinion of Muslims based on sweety I would feel totaly comfortable with them.

Then why not base your opinion on me?
You've already based your opinion on two strange men (who sound like radicals to me).

Just a few months ago an Iranian 15 year old girl was given he death sentence for having a foul mouth. She was in court for a minor charge but she went on a triade about not liking Sharia law or the judge.

I won't comment on this...

It just reminded me of a story:
This happened during the regime of Al-Khaleefa Omar Bin Al Khattab. He was walking in the street, keeping an eye on his people as he usually does.
He saw a drunk man cursing publicly. He then called his guards to go catch the man for him to force the Sharia Law on him. The man stood in front of the Khaleefa, and cursed him.
Omar ordered his guards, "Let him be!"
Of course, they were confused. They asked him, "Why? He has commited a sin and has then cursed you to top it off!"
Omar replied, "I fear that if I force the Law on him, it will be because I want to get back at him for cursing at me. And not for his sinful actions."

It's more or less ^ the story. I really hope I got all my facts right.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety




It just reminded me of a story:
This happened during the regime of Al-Khaleefa Omar Bin Al Khattab. He was walking in the street, keeping an eye on his people as he usually does.
He saw a drunk man cursing publicly. He then called his guards to go catch the man for him to force the Sharia Law on him. The man stood in front of the Khaleefa, and cursed him.
Omar ordered his guards, "Let him be!"
Of course, they were confused. They asked him, "Why? He has commited a sin and has then cursed you to top it off!"
Omar replied, "I fear that if I force the Law on him, it will be because I want to get back at him for cursing at me. And not for his sinful actions."

It's more or less ^ the story. I really hope I got all my facts right.

Omar was a man with too much power but he showed his kindness by not using that power. Such power is common among Kings, and dictators but not among elected officials.

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
Hey CX,

You say you are a freethinker but yet, you fail to see that we are trying to build water, sewage, electrical facilities but the terrorist keep blowing them up.

U got it all backwards. Wake up and smell the roses.

The Israelis want peace but the Palestines will not even stop attacks on Israel long enough for peace talks to take place. Israel has now agreed to talk peace while Pals still attack Israel.

old reb
I realize that you are "trying" to do that, but it aint happening. people are suffering.

Originally posted by old-reb
Omar was a man with too much power but he showed his kindness by not using that power. Such power is common among Kings, and dictators but not among elected officials.

old reb

The terrorist are saying that you can not have freedom or elections. Terrorist will destory infrasturcture and kill anybody that doesn't want them to rule the land and people. So you yeild to terrorist or die. We have given a third choice. We will help them fight the terrorist and give them freedom to vote and chose who leads them like they had before Saddam.

old reb

This has nothing to do with Islam. It's purelt politics - even ifv some terrorists use Islam as a pretext to justify their actions.

^ a point I've been trying to prove ever since I joined here.

Don't confuse ;) politics with religion. They are two different matters.

Originally posted by astrapol2
This has nothing to do with Islam. It's purelt politics - even ifv some terrorists use Islam as a pretext to justify their actions.

So, are you telling me that Islam has seperation of church and state?

old reb

No. I am telling you that many people use Islam as a justification for their acts which mostly have political motives.

You seem to consider everything that happens in muslim countries as a direct consequence of their religion. But there are much more aspects : cultural, political, economical, sociological. Islam is an important component of the arab world but not the only one.

When you read a piece of news about someting that happens in the USA or Europe, do you immediately say it's related to christianism ?

astrapol2, do you use AIM?

The big problem for myself and many others is how to react to all this, some, like vaalon let out their animal emotion and go for the total war on muslms

It's not an animal emotion but fear.
Astrapol, as far as I remember I asked you what you would say if Europe had been dominated by muslims. I'm certain that if it happened no-one would be allowed to express views different to the islamic point of view.
Someone put a question "if something bad happens in christian Europe is it christians' fault ?" or something like that.
I think christian Europe doesn't exist anymore. Most of people are atheists. I don't take into consideration such countries like Poland,Italy or Russia where christianity still plays an important role but even in those countries there are less and less believers. In muslim countries religion is connected with culture and tradition so much that when something bad like stoning or lashing women for not wearing a scarf is going on than people from the west perceive it to be a dark side of Islam. I don't think Islam and muslims are bad at all but their mentality is completely different from ours and we sometimes misunderstand each other at some point.