Lets have a what if?
Dante said something to the fact that we create our own heaven or hell.
What if all the talk of how one day we will be held accountable for how we act and treat people is a warning of our self-made heaven or hell?
What if when we dream we touch death and when we awaken we resurrect?
What if death is a dream-state composed of your feelings and desires? Kind of like going to a scary movie and having bad dreams. Only the dreams of death are never ending. Effected by your experiences in this life and how you viewed things. Continuous good thoughts would allow a person to continually have good dreams, etc.
When we now dream we have no problem manifesting anything we can comprehend. Instantly you can have tall buildings, sea shores, people which you have never met, circumstances you have never known.
During this dream-state this is our reality. Just as real as here and now. Few thoughts of this life. Occasionally we realize we are dreaming and then we have fun.
What if dying and realizing or not realizing the dream is heaven or hell?

Just a fun thing to kick around. But, who really knows?

I have one what if: What if all this happens to be true about what is in the bible and Heaven and hell? You find out that this was not just made up after all.

I have one what if: What if all this happens to be true about what is in the bible and Heaven and hell? You find out that this was not just made up after all.
Yawn. Dan was interesting, you were boring. Such a very standard thing for you to say, requiring no thought whatsoever...

Maybe life is just a dream...maybe [like my sig says] we are just living a dream. I once heard a good quote "Life is but a passing dream, while death is the eternal slumber. One day you might truly wake up and find everything...gone...

Originally posted by Blibblob
I have one what if: What if all this happens to be true about what is in the bible and Heaven and hell? You find out that this was not just made up after all.
Yawn. Dan was interesting, you were boring. Such a very standard thing for you to say, requiring no thought whatsoever...

I was just telling the truth. 2+2=4 must be boring too. But it is still the truth.

Originally posted by the J Man
I was just telling the truth. 2+2=4 must be boring too. But it is still the truth.
No it's not. 2+2=5, or 34, or whatever Big Brother says it does.

/1984

Originally posted by BorgHunter
No it's not. 2+2=5, or 34, or whatever Big Brother says it does.



Yep! Thats' the world's standard of compromise.

Originally posted by the J Man
I was just telling the truth. 2+2=4 must be boring too. But it is still the truth.

Very Good Point.

Originally posted by the J Man
[B]Yep! Thats' the world's standard of compromise.

LOL.


Blib, I have noticed, thinks anyone who disagrees with anything he says to be crazy or boring. Hmm.

I was just telling the truth. 2+2=4 must be boring too. But it is still the truth.
Truth? You said "What if". That does not designate truth. You just gave us your standard christian fundie answer. Why did you respond, when we knew exactly what you were going to say?

Blib, I have noticed, thinks anyone who disagrees with anything he says to be crazy or boring. Hmm.
When have I ever called anybody crazy, when have I ever called anybody boring? You have psychic powers? I thought the bible banned those. Would you like to quote me? Or shut up and stop making idiotic allegations?

Originally posted by Blibblob
[b]I was just telling the truth. 2+2=4 must be boring too. But it is still the truth.
Truth? You said "What if". That does not designate truth. You just gave us your standard christian fundie answer. Why did you respond, when we knew exactly what you were going to say?

The title of this trhead is called "What if." That makes perfect sense as to why I said "what if." I know the truth. Many choose not to accpet it. They don't want the truth because they would have to change their way of living. That is why they go out of their way to make those who tell them the truth look like fools.

Originally posted by Blibblob
when have I ever called anybody boring? Would you like to quote me? Or shut up and stop making idiotic allegations?

How about this....


Originally posted by Blibblob
[b]
Yawn. Dan was interesting, you were boring. Such a very standard thing for you to say, requiring no thought whatsoever...

The title of this trhead is called "What if." That makes perfect sense as to why I said "what if." I know the truth. Many choose not to accpet it. They don't want the truth because they would have to change their way of living. That is why they go out of their way to make those who tell them the truth look like fools.
Truth? 2+2 can be mathematically proven. Can you mathematically prove that you are correct? There is only one truth, and there is no trust about it.

How about this....
I could have sworn I said what he said was boring.

Originally posted by the J Man
That is why they go out of their way to make those who tell them the truth look like fools.

Some people go out of their way to make themselves look like fools by claiming to know the truth. :)

A Fool will say that there is no God.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
A Fool will say that there is no God.

True...and a fool will also say there is a God...

A wise man will say "I don't know if there is a god or not"...

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
A Fool will say that there is no God.
A fool is one who says with absolute certainty that there is (or is not) a god.

Borg,

I have felt the spirt in and around me before. I know that God does exist, and I know his power.

And Gods word does tell us, that any man who says there is no god shall be called a fool.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I have felt the spirt in and around me before. I know that God does exist, and I know his power.
What is this "spirit" you have felt? Are you certain it was God? Not a figment of your imagination...or mild electrical shock? You, Jere, are indeed the fool here.
And Gods word does tell us, that any man who says there is no god shall be called a fool.
No, the Bible says that. The Bible is a book written by men, translated by men, and there is no reason to believe it is God's word except because it says so, which is no reason.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
What is this "spirit" you have felt? Are you certain it was God? Not a figment of your imagination...or mild electrical shock? You, Jere, are indeed the fool here.

Yes, I know it was God. I cant explain it in words...but you cant compare the feeling of being blessed by the holy spirit with anything else.



No, the Bible says that. The Bible is a book written by men, translated by men, and there is no reason to believe it is God's word except because it says so, which is no reason.

There is plenty of reason to believe it. The numerous fulfilled prophecies should be evidence to nonbelievers.

Yes, I know it was God. I cant explain it in words...but you cant compare the feeling of being blessed by the holy spirit with anything else.
Do you have organs at your church?

There is plenty of reason to believe it. The numerous fulfilled prophecies should be evidence to nonbelievers.
Prophecies? HA! "Something will happen" is not a prophecy, regardless of what the Oracle says!

Originally posted by Vilepagan


A wise man will say "I don't know if there is a god or not"...

If God shows Himself real to you, then you'd be a fool to deny His existance. When I testifed what I testifed to you before, I wasn't making that up. I was telling you the exact truth.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Do you have organs at your church?

No.

Originally posted by Blibblob
[B
Prophecies? HA! "Something will happen" is not a prophecy, regardless of what the Oracle says! [/B]

it isnt just saying it will happen, when it does actually happen...over and over again.

Originally posted by the J Man
If God shows Himself real to you, then you'd be a fool to deny His existance.

I would agree with that.

When I testifed what I testifed to you before, I wasn't making that up. I was telling you the exact truth.

As I recall, you said you had chronic back pain, went to a church where you were told that one of your legs was longer than the other because you had a "twisted pelvic bone", and this was cured by the power of god. Pardon me if I simplified that a bit.

What you didn't say was that you saw God. You also didn't say that you have some proof that your pelvic bone was indeed twisted before you were 'healed", such as an x-ray. You also didn't mention that before the healing was done you walked with a severe limp due to the fact that one leg was longer than the other.

I'm not trying to say you weren't telling what you thought was the truth, but your account in no way gives any evidence of the presence of a deity.

Again, I'm glad you are feeling better, and that is the most important thing after all.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
A fool is one who says with absolute certainty that there is (or is not) a god. Lets see.......if you say (believe) with absolute certainty there is a God and when your time comes you find out you're right, you certainly were no fool. If you find out you were wrong....chances are it doesnt matter because you no longer exist either spiritually or physically. Nothing lost.


If you say (believe) with absolute certainty there is no God, when your time comes and you find out you're right, again you no longer exist and there is nothing lost. However, if you say (believe) there is no God and you are proven wrong, you will have gambled and lost your soul. Ultimately I would say that is a very foolish gamble.

Yeah, I agree fully HaVok.

And I have often asked the question, why is it worth the chance? Why would someone want to rely on themselves so much, they can so cowardly to admit they serve a higher power. It just doesnt register with me.

Originally posted by HaVoK
If you say (believe) with absolute certainty there is no God, when your time comes and you find out you're right, again you no longer exist and there is nothing lost. However, if you say (believe) there is no God and you are proven wrong, you will have gambled and lost your soul. Ultimately I would say that is a very foolish gamble.

I do not believe anybody can say with certainty that there is no God. It's hard to look around and not believe that there is something we don't comprehend at work.

But the idea that one should sign on to a bunch of fairy tales on the off chance that if you don't you might lose your soul is hilarious. I doubt God expects us to sign on only to hedge our bets. Even if I wanted to hedge my bets - it would be impossible for me to believe - I cannot subscribe to stuff I truly believe is miss-placed and wrong. If that means I'm going to hell then so be it - I have no fear of that.

Hey this post is my 1666 post :)

Someone who says they have no fear of Hell are doing one of three things.

1) Plainly lying.

2) Demonstrating a lack of knowledge in what Hell will be like.

3) Being toyed with by the devil. (He is letting you think that you have nothing to fear, but God forbid, when you get there, you will of course be in an eternity of torture and pain, that does not heal, that does not stop, and gets wose throughout eternity.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Someone who says they have no fear of Hell are doing one of three things.

1) Plainly lying.

2) Demonstrating a lack of knowledge in what Hell will be like.

3) Being toyed with by the devil. (He is letting you think that you have nothing to fear, but God forbid, when you get there, you will of course be in an eternity of torture and pain, that does not heal, that does not stop, and gets wose throughout eternity.


1 - no not lying

2 - Perhaps, but you have to believe in Hell first

3 - Who knows? Sounds painful though - ouch !

How can one be scared of something they don't believe in ? Plus fear is never a good reason to head down one path.

You said if you go to Hell you wouldnt be scared of it.

I often wonder when someone makes such a remark, what would run through their mind, when they die and are instantly in Hell?

Would it be regret? Remorse? Utter Depession? I would imagine every possible bad feeling would hit you at once.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
You said if you go to Hell you wouldnt be scared of it.

I often wonder when someone makes such a remark, what would run through their mind, when they die and are instantly in Hell?

Would it be regret? Remorse? Utter Depession? I would imagine every possible bad feeling would hit you at once.

It's not something I consider because I simply don't believe it. It's far too simplistic a notion. Nobody knows what life after death is all about - people have beliefs but nobody knows.

But - I can tell you for me if your version comes to pass then it wouldn't be regret, remorse or utter depression. Endless pain huh? I guess you'd get used to it after a while.

I always laugh when somone says that.

Have you ever gotten used to pain yet? Have you ever placed your thumb over a lighter's flame? Ever rubbed your skin with an eraser til it began to burn? Ever held a sharp point into your skin?

Did you ever get used to any of that pain? What makes you think that eternal pain so bad, that they only sound you will hear for eternity is the gnawling and gnashing of teeth, will just be a relaxing dip in a sauna after a while?

Yes, but that is a simplistic view. So, one will have a human body in hell ?

gnashing of teeth of teeth is a good example in point - clearly this is meant to be symbolic, it is not meant to mean that we will have teeth in hell - yet if one applies the literal to every line of the Bible, then you must believe that one has teeth in hell. By your rules there is no other explanation.

Eternity is a long time - I am sure the pain would get old after a few years.

Originally posted by Vilepagan


As I recall, you said you had chronic back pain, went to a church where you were told that one of your legs was longer than the other because you had a "twisted pelvic bone", and this was cured by the power of god. Pardon me if I simplified that a bit.

What you didn't say was that you saw God. You also didn't say that you have some proof that your pelvic bone was indeed twisted before you were 'healed", such as an x-ray. You also didn't mention that before the healing was done you walked with a severe limp due to the fact that one leg was longer than the other.

Of course I did not visually see God, but I seen the move of God as He healed me instantly and restored my back. Before i was instanlty and miraculously healed, I had lot's of pain in my lower back that medical attention could not solve. The problem never caused me to limp, but it caused me pain and agony. I did mention how the prophet of God knew what was worng and the pelvic bone was twisted causing one leg to be a a couple of inches longer then the other. As I sat down in the chair, I saw for myself that he knew what he was talking about. God had obviously shown him what was wrong with my back.

Originally posted by the J Man
Of course I did not visually see God, but I seen the move of God as He healed me instantly and restored my back. Before i was instanlty and miraculously healed, I had lot's of pain in my lower back that medical attention could not solve. The problem never caused me to limp, but it caused me pain and agony. I did mention how the prophet of God knew what was worng and the pelvic bone was twisted causing one leg to be a a couple of inches longer then the other. As I sat down in the chair, I saw for myself that he knew what he was talking about. God had obviously shown him what was wrong with my back.

I think this is interesting & I don't doubt your story, in fact healings are not uncommon.

What I have trouble reconciling is miraculous healings occur across all religions and also outside of formal religions.

Given that Christianity does not have a monopoly on such things - what is your opinion on non-christian healings?

Originally posted by DrewM
I think this is interesting & I don't doubt your story, in fact healings are not uncommon.

What I have trouble reconciling is miraculous healings occur across all religions and also outside of formal religions.

Given that Christianity does not have a monopoly on such things - what is your opinion on non-christian healings?

Drew, give me an example of when someone has been healed through Islam or Bddhism. I have never heard of people being cured of incurable diseases, healed from infirmities, delivered from addictions, prophecies that build people up and give people proper direction life trhough other religions, but they happen in Holy Spirit filled churches. Satan's works are literally destroyed through the power of the Holy Spirit and many have testified the greatness of God and what God has brought them through.

Originally posted by the J Man
I had lot's of pain in my lower back that medical attention could not solve. The problem never caused me to limp, but it caused me pain and agony. I did mention how the prophet of God knew what was worng and the pelvic bone was twisted causing one leg to be a a couple of inches longer then the other. As I sat down in the chair, I saw for myself that he knew what he was talking about. God had obviously shown him what was wrong with my back.

You say that medical attention could not solve your problem. What kind of attention did you receive?

I find it very difficult to believe that you had one leg that was a couple inches longer than the other yet you say you didn't walk with a limp.

Originally posted by the J Man
Drew, give me an example of when someone has been healed through Islam or Bddhism. I have never heard of people being cured of incurable diseases, healed from infirmities, delivered from addictions, prophecies that build people up and give people proper direction life trhough other religions, but they happen in Holy Spirit filled churches. Satan's works are literally destroyed through the power of the Holy Spirit and many have testified the greatness of God and what God has brought them through.

http://www.rnw.nl/society/html/faithhealing000421.html
http://www.all-natural.com/sufi.html

just from a quick Google search - there are thousands of items out there about non christian healing experiences.

Christianity has absolutely no monopoly on miracles.

Originally posted by DrewM
Christianity has absolutely no monopoly on miracles.

::holds fingers to temples as he receives prophecy from God::

I prophecy that the divine origin of the non-christian miracles will be denied by the christians on this forum. :D

Do you think God only heals people that are Christians? He loves and takes care of us all.

Any example you can find where still healed by God.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Do you think God only heals people that are Christians? He loves and takes care of us all.

Any example you can find where still healed by God.

I agree with you. We are not debating the existance of God.

So, by your admission - God heals and he doesn't only heal those who are Christians. Therefore God is wider than Christianity. ie Christians are not his chosen people.

Originally posted by DrewM
I agree with you. We are not debating the existance of God.

So, by your admission - God heals and he doesn't only heal those who are Christians. Therefore God is wider than Christianity. ie Christians are not his chosen people. I dont understand what point you're making Drew. If, as a christian, I were to believe that I was a "chosen person", wouldnt that make me somewhat of a religious snob? Like I thought I was better than others because God loved me best? As Christians, we are taught that ALL people are God's children. He loves us equally. It's our actions and thoughts that define our relationship with God, not the way He views us.

Some Christians I know believe that the Jews are God's chosen people. I do not subscribe to that notion, because I personally do not believe he loves any of us more than another.

Originally posted by DrewM
So, by your admission - God heals and he doesn't only heal those who are Christians. Therefore God is wider than Christianity. ie Christians are not his chosen people.

Christians are not God's chosen people. We are the people that chose God.

I completely agree with you HaVok. If there is a God he doesn't look upon Christians, or Jews, or Muslims as his "chosen" people; he treats all people as his "children". However, there are Christians on this board who have repeatedly said that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
If there is a God he doesn't look upon Christians, or Jews, or Muslims as his "chosen" people; he treats all people as his "children".
Exactly right.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
However, there are Christians on this board who have repeatedly said that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Also exactly right.

Apparently Jere, you are blind to the inherent contradiction in your last post.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
However, there are Christians on this board who have repeatedly said that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

This is my point. Jere - you contradicted yourself, actually you have contradicted yourself several times so far.

Originally posted by DrewM
This is my point. Jere - you contradicted yourself, actually you have contradicted yourself several times so far.


Originally posted by Vilepagan
Apparently Jere, you are blind to the inherent contradiction in your last post.


To both of you---why dont you try to tell me how I contradicted myself.

Jere, come on. You claim that God loves all his children, but yet only through Christ can one gain salvation. This is eerily reminiscent of the line from Orwell's Animal Farm that says, (and I paraphrase):

"All men are created equal, but some men are more equal than others"

Are you saying that God loves Christians more than Hindus?

No, I'm not saying he loves anyone more than another. That's why Jesus died for everyone's sin.

Originally posted by DrewM
I agree with you. We are not debating the existance of God.

So, by your admission - God heals and he doesn't only heal those who are Christians. Therefore God is wider than Christianity. ie Christians are not his chosen people.

But it is God who does the healing. Yes, God has done miraculous things for those who haven;t accepted Him since God is a merciful God, but those who call upon the name of the Lord and those who dilligently seek the Lord, God answers their prayers and takes care of their needs.

Originally posted by the J Man
But it is God who does the healing. Yes, God has done miraculous things for those who haven;t accepted Him since God is a merciful God, but those who call upon the name of the Lord and those who dilligently seek the Lord, God answers their prayers and takes care of their needs.

This is much more palatable to me & something I could buy in to. But by definition it does mean that one doesn't have to be a fundamental christian to receive the grace of God.

Christians per say - I have no spefic problem with. Fundamental christian beliefs - I hate those beliefs with a passion because they are filled with hate toward others disguised as rightousness.

Drew,

Christians are not full of hate, and those out there that are, arent living by the teachings of Christ.

We are to love all and do what we can to ensure them an eternal life in the eternal pleasures of Heaven.

The beliefs are filled with hate - individual people will vary.

They are not! The same rights apply to everyone on the face of this Earth.

Everyone has the chance of being born again in Christ.

No, I'm not saying he loves anyone more than another. That's why Jesus died for everyone's sin.
So, everybody living on the opposite end of the world during the time of lack of communication will go to hell due to not knowing about him? Everybody before Jesus is in hell because they didn't know about him? Everybody who grew up under another religion is going to hell due to ignorance? OH! How so very LOVING and NICE.

::tip toes into the conversation:: I would like to go back to the idea of creating my own Heaven or Hell..... ::smiles:: Which also lets me I guess Create my own reality. That sounds pleasant... However I do have to agree with BilbBlob... It does not seem logical that someone should die simply becuase he hasn't learned about God... which seriously made me think... I mean I attended 8 years of Catholic Paracholia school. I know a lot about Religion but most of it was installed into my mind as a Child, and we all know the theories behind Nature Vs. Nuture.. ..anyway...

Hi philosophytara - welcome to Allforums!

I agree with you 100% - we create our own reality. Personally I believe that if you believe in anything enough the world will fit itself to your beliefs and prove you right.

Jere - I am not saying you are filled with hate, I am saying the beliefs you have smack of hate. People not "saved" are going to hell no matter the fact that they grew up in a non christian country etc. Gays are the work of the devil etc. Oh yes - it's easy to say well we love them all - but it's a two faced approach. You hate the devil and think he is responsible for anything that doesn't conform to your wrapped with a red bow distorted picture.

::listening:: I would have to agree, some of the more judgemental, and biased people I have run across are so called "Church goers" who look down upon other people that do not meet their standards or expectations. Where on the other hand I have been taken in given food and shelter, and good conversations from Bikers, Hippies, and other types, who would be considered, less then desirable to those "Hollier then Thou" church people. I myself being baptised Catholic, however, I would have to consider myself a recovering Catholic. ::Grins::

And thank you for the Warm welcome Drew... Pleased to meet you.

Originally posted by DrewM
[B]This is much more palatable to me & something I could buy in to. But by definition it does mean that one doesn't have to be a fundamental christian to receive the grace of God.



All people have the right to accept God's grace. He just waits for people to accept His love and grace into their lives.

Originally posted by Blibblob
No, I'm not saying he loves anyone more than another. That's why Jesus died for everyone's sin.
So, everybody living on the opposite end of the world during the time of lack of communication will go to hell due to not knowing about him? Everybody before Jesus is in hell because they didn't know about him? Everybody who grew up under another religion is going to hell due to ignorance? OH! How so very LOVING and NICE.

God does not hold soemone accountable for what they do not know. People who never heard of Jesus, how God would judge them would not be the same because they don't know of Him. God being fair and just would give all people an oppertunity to get into heaven and escape hell God does not desire that anyone should perish, but all should have everlasting life. He wants all to choose life. As far as people that have never heard of Him, they would be judged by their moral standard according to what they knew to be true.

Originally posted by the J Man
God does not hold soemone accountable for what they do not know. People who never heard of Jesus, how God would judge them would not be the same because they don't know of Him. God being fair and just would give all people an oppertunity to get into heaven and escape hell God does not desire that anyone should perish, but all should have everlasting life. He wants all to choose life. As far as people that have never heard of Him, they would be judged by their moral standard according to what they knew to be true.

Tell me where it says that in the Bible.

agreed.... In the bible it says only a handfull will enter into heaven... well it depends on what bible you are following, but most of it is all hell fire and damnation. I mean come on... isn't that kinda like Tyranny? keep the sheep in line by threatening them in the after life, when it won't matter anyway... Especially if there isn't a heaven.

I agree with J-Man. Just like there is an age of accountabilty, I think there is a limit of accountability to people that havent heard the gosple of Christ too.

We do, fortunately, have missionaries out in the world helping bring the good news to them.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I agree with J-Man. Just like there is an age of accountabilty, I think there is a limit of accountability to people that havent heard the gosple of Christ too.

We do, fortunately, have missionaries out in the world helping bring the good news to them.

Interesting.

So, you simply think this to be true. What happened to the word of the Bible is the only truth yada yada.

This "I think there is a limit of accountability to people that havent heard the gosple of Christ too" is simply an attempt to editoralize (ie make up) something to reconcile the fact that what you believe makes no sense, because nowhere in the Bible does it make this statement.

That's why I cannot refer to it with 100% certainty. I can take into consideration the love and care God has for all people, and make an educated conjecture.

Originally posted by DrewM
Tell me where it says that in the Bible.

Regarding salvation, the same terms apply for all people who have heard the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1st John5:12-he that has Son has life; and he that has not the Son, has not life.

revelation20:15-And whosoever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Those who have never heard the gospel will be judged by God according to the law of God which was written in their hearts.

Romans2:14-16-For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their consequences also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Even those who have never heard of Christ can see that there is God.

Romans1:20-For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen , being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

There is no age of accountability given in the bible. It would depend on what you know and understand to be rigth and wrong. Infants and children who die prematurely go to heaven without any accountability

Matthew18:1-5-At the same time came the disciples unto jesus saying, Who is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto Him, and set Him in the midst of them, And said Verily, I say unto you, Except you be converted as a little child, you shall not enter the Kigdom of Heaven. Whoseover therefore shall humble themselves as a little child, the same is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. And whoso shall recieve one such little child in my name recives Me.

When a child of King David's died(2nd Samuel12:15), David knew he'd see his child again in heaven(vs.23).

God is fair and just. In His infinite wisdom, He would not allow anyone to persin without having the oppertunity to get into Heaven and escape eternity in hell. God doesn;t want anyone to perish, but all to have everlasting life(John3:16).

Originally posted by philosophytara
[B]agreed.... In the bible it says only a handfull will enter into heaven...

I cannot determine how many will or how mnay won't, but you have the oppertunity to make it in.

well it depends on what bible you are following, but most of it is all hell fire and damnation.

Hell fire and damnation is only for the wicked. Even a wicked man can repent and turn to Christ with all their heart and recieve forgiveness. God never created hell for us. He created it for satan and his fallen angels(Matthew25;41). It's just that many are choosing that path.

Jman - your verses could mean just about anything.

I don't see the lines that even come close to the accomodation you mentioned earlier. Could be you can't accept that point either and have made up your own view to reconcile that point.

I don't think anything I have raised is at all unreasonable.

Originally posted by DrewM
[B]Jman - your verses could mean just about anything.

The scriptures I posted were pretty straight forward. Why would you feel that they could mean just about anything?

Because they could :)

You never really addressed my point.

Originally posted by DrewM


You never really addressed my point. [/B]

What exactly do you want me to point out to you?

Drew,

I would actually like to see you describe how those verses could mean anything? If your always asking for examples and then just saying it could mean anything, I'd like to know what brings you to this point.

Hell fire and damnation is only for the wicked. Even a wicked man can repent and turn to Christ with all their heart and recieve forgiveness. God never created hell for us. He created it for satan and his fallen angels(Matthew25;41). It's just that many are choosing that path. [/B][/QUOTE]


Ok well you say Hell fire and damnation is only for the wicked, but I'm saying that Why threaten us with it? I mean, In your eyes I'm more then likely a sinner and probably should go to hell, but I feel like I am a good person and try to live my life treating others with respect, I don't need threats of spending my entire after life in Hell suffering for sins and crimes that may not apply to me.

Sorry. that was a quote from J Man... still trying to figure out how to use the site... LOL

Dude, you just quick the "quote" button.

Anywho... we're not trying to threaten you, but we are providing you with the choice of Heaven and Hell. If you choose not to believe in it, thats your personal business. But others may be willing to listen.

ok.. you are providing me with a choice. Let's see.... Agree with you and go to heaven and live life the way you set out for me. Or... disagree, explore other possibilities and Not believe in God and go to Hell... that sounds a little self important to me. Religion is a way to keep people in line just as Government is to keep us in line. Following Religion is just like having one more set of rules forced upon us, and inhibiting our freedom and radical thoughts.

Just take this whole idea of religion out of your skull for a second. I dont know what makes you feel this way, but just let your mind start with scratch.

All we are purposing is being saved by Jesus, because that is the one and only thing that gets you into Heaven. The rest is really for you to decide on your own.

So you believe Heaven is the only place we go after we die? You haven't ever considered any other possibilites? Hmm... Have you maybe considered that we are alien to this planet... which makes us in fact Aliens?

Actually, there IS an alternative to going to Heaven. It's called Hell.

what if we became part of the cosmos... or a celestial spirit? What if when we die we evolve from having to use bodies into something more in tune with time/space and matter?

What if...

Things are exactly how God said they would be?

::sighs:: I have considered that possibility, have you considered the ones that I have presented?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


Anywho... we're not trying to threaten you, but we are providing you with the choice of Heaven and Hell. If you choose not to believe in it, thats your personal business. But others may be willing to listen. [/B]

Exactly! It is our job to get the gospel out to people as God had caled us to do. All we are doing is telling people about the reality of eternity without Christ because we are lost without Him.

::puts her hand over her mouth to stop a giggle:: The REALITY of eternity without Christ? Now I know enough about Religion to realize that there are some valid points about moral's and ethics in the bible, which just confirms to me that religion is used as a self proclaimed set of rules separate from Society's set. I am raising a child and I never once thought about teaching him about Jesus or God untill he started acting up and not listening to me, then a thought crossed my mind. "I should send him to Sunday School That would put the fear of God in him" Literally. More then likely my Son will come home tramautized and throw a fit the next time I would bring him there. ::smiles::

No, sending your son to Sunday School and Church would be the best thing that ever happened to him.

Dont make his decision for him. Let him go, learn about the lord, be around other kids who can help him prosper in the lord, and if he doesnt like it, than find something else, but if he does like it...well even though maybe you may not believe in it, you can have the assurance that, if youre wrong, your little son will be going to an eternal paradise.

ok then he is going to go to public school where he will not be allowed to express his views. Which will basicially be telling him there is something wrong with religion..... I don't want to confuse the poor child the way I was. Forced to undergo 7 years of Catholic Parcharial School, and attend church 2 to three times a week.

you can have the assurance that, if youre wrong, your little son will be going to an eternal paradise.

You keep saying this stuff like it is without question. This is just something you believe in. Lots of people all over the world believe in things with equal conviction as you. There are thousands of 'Jere clones' in every single country on earth - all believeing something different with absolute conviction. They all have religious texts, feelings, experiences and so called miracles to back up what they believe, but nothing of actual substance.

Personally I would never send a kid to sunday school - a childs mind is way too ripe for brainwashing. Better to let them ask questions, learn about different religions and make their own call about spirituality when they are old enough to decide for themselves.

Saying that it's worth sending a child to Sunday school as a hedge against them burning in hell is outrageous. What kind of God to you follow? A mean and manipulative God is all I can see in the many many posts so far.

Jere - I thought your aim was to spread the Gospel - so far you've probably helped more people into hell than into heaven :)

I would rather let my son explore science and nature and the possiblity that nothing is outside of his range of existance. Forcefeeding him Religion, and I believe untill A child can make a conscious choice is exatly what Sunday School does. He can get social interaction and learning from a Non-church based Daycare/School.

Originally posted by philosophytara
I am raising a child and I never once thought about teaching him about Jesus or God untill he started acting up and not listening to me, then a thought crossed my mind. "I should send him to Sunday School That would put the fear of God in him" Literally. More then likely my Son will come home tramautized and throw a fit the next time I would bring him there. ::smiles:: [/B]

I have never heard of that happening before. Som coming home traumatized? Where do you get that assumption from? Bringing your child up in a bible believing church that loves God and loves people, your child would be way better off if he/she is taught Godly principles in life.

When I was in high school, I messed up badly eben though my parents were good moraled parents(although my dad was a little mean at times) that taught me to do right. But what they didn't teach me was how to handle tliving in the world and how to deal with life's situations. They also didn;t teach me to have self respect and to know who I am in life.

In a church where they are grounded in the Word and walking with God, people are taught that. I became a person of integrity and a person who had self esteem when I started realizing who I am in Christ. Regardless of what anyone else would say.

God created us for a purpose and wants all of us to to fulfil that. Everyone is valuable to Christ when in this world, it is filled with deception and confusion. It is filled with hopelessness and calamity. What people really need is Jesus. he is the one who make your path straight in life. He is the one who cares about you and loves you unconditionally.

Originally posted by philosophytara
I would rather let my son explore science and nature and the possiblity that nothing is outside of his range of existance. Forcefeeding him Religion, and I believe untill A child can make a conscious choice is exatly what Sunday School does. He can get social interaction and learning from a Non-church based Daycare/School.

In a church that is serving the Lord, they never try to force anything on anyone. In Sunday school, bible study, prayer meetings or Sunday service, it is not at all about forcing anything on anyone. They respect your right to choose and be who you wish to be. They do not want to brain-wash you or control you in any way.

If it were like that, I wold not still be a christian today.

Originally posted by the J Man
In a church that is serving the Lord, they never try to force anything on anyone. In Sunday school, bible study, prayer meetings or Sunday service, it is not at all about forcing anything on anyone. They respect your right to choose and be who you wish to be. They do not want to brain-wash you or control you in any way.

Absolute Rubbish !

Originally posted by the J Man
I have never heard of that happening before. Som coming home traumatized? Where do you get that assumption from? Bringing your child up in a bible believing church that loves God and loves people, your child would be way better off if he/she is taught Godly principles in life.




ok.... Now My son is used to a certain way of life with certain rules and regulations... He stands in the corner his hands behind his back at the drop of a hat... He says please, thankyou, I'm sorry excuse me. He shares, he does chores, and he helps me whenever I am doing my chores. He tells me he loves himself and me. He loves and takes care of his cat. and he is always smiling and laughing. Now..... If I took him to Sunday School and they taught him about God that would confuse him, I am not sure where I stand on this whole "God" issue, how can I allow my son to be taught something that people blindly believe in without scientific proof?

Originally posted by philosophytara
ok then he is going to go to public school where he will not be allowed to express his views. Which will basicially be telling him there is something wrong with religion..... I don't want to confuse the poor child the way I was. Forced to undergo 7 years of Catholic Parcharial School, and attend church 2 to three times a week.

He can express his views just fine in a public school.

Sure, he wont be part of mass prayers conducted by the teacher or something, but he can do such things within himself.

I pray over my food at school. I lead my tennis mates in prayer before each match. I wear Christian themed shirts. You can demonstrate your Christianity in school just fine.

In fact there are clubs such as FCA (Future Christian Atheltes) and my own creation FACT (Fellowship Among Christian Teens) that provide a time for Christians to come together in fellowship.

Originally posted by philosophytara
ok.... Now My son is used to a certain way of life with certain rules and regulations... He stands in the corner his hands behind his back at the drop of a hat... He says please, thankyou, I'm sorry excuse me. He shares, he does chores, and he helps me whenever I am doing my chores. He tells me he loves himself and me. He loves and takes care of his cat. and he is always smiling and laughing. Now..... If I took him to Sunday School and they taught him about God that would confuse him, I am not sure where I stand on this whole "God" issue, how can I allow my son to be taught something that people blindly believe in without scientific proof?

Completely agree. A childs involvement in a moderate church is not always a negative thing if they do not have strong parenting - it can keep them out of trouble, but if they have strong parents, church is not worth the psychological damage.

It doesnt have to have any psychological affects at all.

Look at me, Im surrounded by people that dont believe the same as I, and Im doing fine...lol.

Oh but there are psychological effects. We ask our children to believe in Santa Clause... (religious) the Easter bunny (religious) (Halloween) (religious) God (religious) OK and what is the other commonality in this pattern....... ding...... They are all stories made up to try and make our children behave.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Look at me, Im surrounded by people that dont believe the same as I, and Im doing fine...lol.

Yep - you believe heaven is paved with gold :)

Originally posted by philosophytara
Oh but there are psychological effects. We ask our children to believe in Santa Clause... (religious) the Easter bunny (religious) (Halloween) (religious) God (religious) OK and what is the other commonality in this pattern....... ding...... They are all stories made up to try and make our children behave.

Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, and Halloween are not religious anythings.

In fact they are used to overide the Christian meaning behind Christmas, Easter, and All Saints Day

Originally posted by DrewM
Absolute Rubbish !

In your opinion.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, and Halloween are not religious anythings.

In fact they are used to overide the Christian meaning behind Christmas, Easter, and All Saints Day

OH no? Doesn't the easter bunny teach about new life? "like Jesus raising from the dead?

Dosen't Santa clause bring toys to all the good girls and boys? another way to explain to children about the Three wise men bringing gifts to baby jesus.

It seems there is a pattern here with Christians creating imaginary things to lie to our children about. Why shouldn't they ultimately come to the conclusion that God is imaginary as well?