Well I have to say I have sat out of this discussion long enough. I am shocked to see that there are still those out there with such a strong belief for evolution, such a sad sad THEORY. some of you have come on here and said that it was absoloute fact, really I must have missed that paper. I would think what they should be teaching instead of the theory of evololutionution, maybe the hoax of evolution.

Can anyone give me an example of how, or what things are evolving into today, like are any fish evolving into amphibians, or any amphibians to reptiles, or hell if they say man evolved from an ape, ( which would be near to impossible ) are we as the species of man continuing to evolve into another species. If not why not shouldn't there be some mind blowing changes going on that would prove that things are still evolving. I am not sure but as far as I can see I dont think so.

I find it funny or peculiar that with all the evidence to support the theory that they(scientists) have to fake the piltdown man.

I will say with a clear conscience that your theory onevolution is nothing but a big hoax with no evidence to back it up. I am sorry to dissallusion you.

I understand that it is difficult to understand the bible and the 6 day creation concept, I am sorry for that. God probably thought it was explained pretty well in the bible, in fact I am sure had he know there would have been so many doubters he would have made it clearer. OOPS he did know didnt he, GOD is awesome like that. I guess thats why he gave us the great commission, ( matthew 28:18, 19 , 20. Now why would he leave such simple instructions, is it because he already knew there would be heardened hearts, or those that would continue to not believe in him, i would think so. Dont get me wrong i do not go around door to door beating people over the head with a bible, telling them to repent the end is near, ( although not a bad idea).

I feel that society has degressed so rapidly that it is shameful. knowledge is awesome when used or taught in the right context, ( evolution doesn't fit in there) but it seems to be the excepted doctrines in school, The fact that we as a society have gone away from our stong christian foundation of the constitution, is no wonder we live in the cess pool society is today. Well my ranting will be for another day I guess, I will just post this and get on with it

I'll go ahead and tell you what they are going to say.

They are going to reply to all your points by just saying something like, oh well it takes a long time, or something like that, that although plainly a very generic and unfounded claim, seems to make you go on the defensive...but dont worry, you have the supreme proof in creationalism on your side.

Thank you J.J. appreciate the kind words, probably wont be many from the evolution side, but who knows, the truth could have come to them in a dream last night, we shall see. i didnt mean to start a new thread i meant to post this on logic vs bible, but hit the wrong button i guess, thats what you get for being a newbie

No sweat. Your point was made regardless. Keep up the good work.

Originally posted by majormax
Can anyone give me an example of how, or what things are evolving into today, like are any fish evolving into amphibians, or any amphibians to reptiles, or hell if they say man evolved from an ape, ( which would be near to impossible ) are we as the species of man continuing to evolve into another species. If not why not shouldn't there be some mind blowing changes going on that would prove that things are still evolving. I am not sure but as far as I can see I dont think so.
Evolution does not occur randomly. Evolution occurs because a flaw in the genetic design of a species impedes the species from reproducing, and thus the non-flawed organisms pass their genes on while the flawed ones either reproduce at a slower rate or stop reproducing altogether, causing the non-flawed (superior) gene to be in a progressively larger percentage of the species. This flaw can be a whole range of things. Here's a specific example:
The classic example of directional selection is the change in frequency of particular color varieties of the moth Biston betularia, as a result of the Industrial Revolution in England. Moths are active at night, and during the day they rest motionless, with their wings folded against tree trunks, in an effort to avoid detection by bird predators. In 1848, the earliest date for which reliable data are available, 99% of the moths in west–central England had a light peppered coloration that allowed these moths to blend in well against lichen–covered tree trunks. The remaining 1% were quite dark, a condition known as melanistic, and they stood out strikingly against the same tree trunks.

Fifty years and 50 moth generations later, the percentages had become reversed (2% peppered, 98% melanistic). This unusually rapid evolution resulted from extremely strong directional selection during a period of drastic environmental change – the trees had become blackened by soot from coal burning factories that lacked any emission controls. This change in moth coloration became known as industrial melanism. After the Clean Air Act was passed in the 1950's, tree trunks became cleaner and the situation began reversing again. And by 1985, the peppered variety had grown to 66% of the moth population near one industrialized city.
In this example, the peppered moths started out having the upper hand over the melanistic ones, because they could blend in with the tree trunks and thus avoid the attention of predators, and so would live longer to reproduce. However, when soot began covering the trees, the peppered moths suddenly stood out, and were eaten in droves. The melanistic ones blended in, and reproduced as they could not before, and thus spread their melanistic genes to their offspring. The melanistic moths then became more common.
I find it funny or peculiar that with all the evidence to support the theory that they(scientists) have to fake the piltdown man.
On the contrary, Piltdown Man agitated the scientific community to no end. It did not fit in with what scientists expected, and they had to adjust theories which we now know did not need adjusting. The scientific community was relieved when it was discovered to be a hoax.
I will say with a clear conscience that your theory onevolution is nothing but a big hoax with no evidence to back it up. I am sorry to dissallusion you.
I have now provided evidence. Will you retract your statement that evolution is a hoax?
I understand that it is difficult to understand the bible and the 6 day creation concept, I am sorry for that. God probably thought it was explained pretty well in the bible, in fact I am sure had he know there would have been so many doubters he would have made it clearer. OOPS he did know didnt he, GOD is awesome like that. I guess thats why he gave us the great commission, ( matthew 28:18, 19 , 20.
Couple of things wrong here. First off, you're mixing science and religion, a big no-no. Secondly, you claim there is no evidence for evolution, and then begin to spout off Bible verses in support of your "theory"...what evidence, discounting a book written thousands of years ago and translated countless times, supports creationism?
I feel that society has degressed so rapidly that it is shameful. knowledge is awesome when used or taught in the right context, ( evolution doesn't fit in there) but it seems to be the excepted doctrines in school, The fact that we as a society have gone away from our stong christian foundation of the constitution, is no wonder we live in the cess pool society is today. Well my ranting will be for another day I guess, I will just post this and get on with it
"Strong Christian foundation of the Constitution"?! You're out of your fucking mind! Nowhere in the Constitution is Christianity, Jesus, or God even mentioned! In fact, it is specifically mentioned in the First Amendment to NOT mix religion and government! ...But that's irrelevant to this discussion, as is your assessment of our current society as a "cesspool".Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I'll go ahead and tell you what they are going to say.

They are going to reply to all your points by just saying something like, oh well it takes a long time, or something like that, that although plainly a very generic and unfounded claim, seems to make you go on the defensive...but dont worry, you have the supreme proof in creationalism on your side.
THANK YOU, asshole, for answering for me! And you were oh-so-accurate too! Self-righteous prick.

you stated Evolution does not occur randomly. Evolution occurs because a flaw in the genetic design of a species impedes the species from reproducing, and thus the non-flawed organisms pass their genes on while the flawed ones either reproduce at a slower rate or stop reproducing altogether, causing the non-flawed (superior) gene to be in a progressively larger percentage of the species. This flaw can be a whole range of things. Here's a specific example:


what is the genitic design flaw of the moth in question, it appears to me that, like the chammelion it is just changinging with it enviorment to protect itself, not mutating into a different kind of moth. what then was the flaw in the genetic design of the ape, since we as man supposedly evolved from them, and if they are so flawed and are supposed to reproduce at a slower rate or stop all together, why are they still around, why have they not stopped reproducing, as you are telling me they should.

you then said I have now provided evidence. Will you retract your statement that evolution is a hoax?

i would have to say no to that, sorry i missed the memo on mixing science and religion, after all i am just a simpleton. i believe the bible verse that i gave you was the great commission from matthew, which tell us to spread the gospel.

I am suprised that you would want me to discount the word of god in my arguments, i mean , thats like a scientist told to look at a cancer cell with the naked eye, no microscope or anything.

you are bound to use your tools and i am bound to use mine. so can i sit here and say with absolute fact that God created the heavens and the earth, and man after his own image, and all the creatures in the world, nope i can't sorry. no more than you can say evolution is a fact, i mean you can say it all you want. The fact will remain that i will believe in creation and you narrow mind full of false intellect will believe the hoax of evolution.

then you said Strong Christian foundation of the Constitution"?! You're out of your fucking mind! Nowhere in the Constitution is Christianity, Jesus, or God even mentioned! In fact, it is specifically mentioned in the First Amendment to NOT mix religion and government! ...But that's irrelevant to this discussion, as is your assessment of our current society as a "cesspool".

Yes your right, it does not mention christianity in the constitution, thank GOD, i am sure they would have found away now a days to ammend that too, hence the first ammendment, we dont want the goverment interfering with our religion, its amazing though that In God we Trust found its way on our money, also peculiar, is when swearing an oath, they use a bible, and say so help you god, that confuses me a little, why not say in darwin we trust, or so help me darwin. you know to give evoluionist a little credit here and there, give em a little plug, say whats up. you have solved the mysteryies of the universe,

sorry got carried away i realized why , because it unfounded crap
sorry no catchy quote at ehe end, just a rookie

Originally posted by majormax
what is the genitic design flaw of the moth in question, it appears to me that, like the chammelion it is just changinging with it enviorment to protect itself, not mutating into a different kind of moth. what then was the flaw in the genetic design of the ape, since we as man supposedly evolved from them, and if they are so flawed and are supposed to reproduce at a slower rate or stop all together, why are they still around, why have they not stopped reproducing, as you are telling me they should.
No, the key difference is the fact that the moth does not have the ability to change colors at all. It's not mutating either...rather, the species in question is evolving to meet a new need for survival.

The "inferior" kind is still around because even the flaw is not major enough to wipe out that gene. Inferiorally colored moths still have a slight chance of surviving long enough to reproduce, thus that color lives on.
you are bound to use your tools and i am bound to use mine. so can i sit here and say with absolute fact that God created the heavens and the earth, and man after his own image, and all the creatures in the world, nope i can't sorry. no more than you can say evolution is a fact, i mean you can say it all you want.
But, I have evidence for evolution. I have provided it and I just now attempted to clarify a few points you were confused on. You have NO evidence for creationism beyond the Bible, and as much as you would like it to be so, the Bible is not a book of scientific facts.

read my reply in both the science thread under "Evolution: The Timeline of Hominids" (its close to the top) and Religion thread under "Logic vs the Bible" (right at the top). Im interested as to how you think.

Borg I can't believe you are still using the peppered moth as proof of evolution.
The problem is that regardless of the color you still have a moth.

Wait what am I doing in here? I've got to do some work in the Bible vs Logic thread.

One is not required to say "so help me god" or put their hand on the bible. Only to swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That was changed years ago, back in the 50's I think. It makes no sense to have someone swear to something that they don't believe in.

Also "under god" was added to the pledge of allegience in the 50's. It was not in it before that.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
THANK YOU, asshole, for answering for me! And you were oh-so-accurate too! Self-righteous prick.

Being as though this was a seperate thread, and the post never said it was directed to you, I see no reason why you are thanking me for answering for YOU.

Originally posted by stark
Borg I can't believe you are still using the peppered moth as proof of evolution.
The problem is that regardless of the color you still have a moth.
Yeah, and? It does not have to change into an entirely different animal to be termed evolution.
Originally posted by jerejerespeaksforall
Being as though this was a seperate thread, and the post never said it was directed to you, I see no reason why you are thanking me for answering for YOU.
FINE, you want to argue semantics? Us, then, instead of me, referring to evolutionists. Happy?

I like the jerejerespeaksforall, lol thats funny.

And yes, thanks for the correction.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Yeah, and? It does not have to change into an entirely different animal to be termed evolution.

Now we have the Micro or Macro evolution problem. I'm fine with Micro evolution, small changes like you would get from breeding dogs, the Golden Retriever for instance, still a dog, just prettier, but Macroevolution, where you find huge leaps like lizards to birds or monkey to man, not a chance.

About the moth...it wasn't that the moth changed at all, what happened is there were more moths left over that were darker. If you were to clean things up the lighter moths would be back. In a nutshell: Same moth, but a wild application.

Originally posted by majormax



I will say with a clear conscience that your theory onevolution is nothing but a big hoax with no evidence to back it up. I am sorry to dissallusion you.

Satan's biggest weapon against mankind is deception. His biggest 2 deceptions are that he isn't real and that God isn't real. He has deceived multitudes into believing this evolution theory and disbelieving the Lord Jesus Christ is who is the way, the truth and the life.

I understand that it is difficult to understand the bible and the 6 day creation concept, I am sorry for that.

That's why we need the Holy Spirit to give us revelation of His Word and what the scriptures mean.

God probably thought it was explained pretty well in the bible, in fact I am sure had he know there would have been so many doubters he would have made it clearer. OOPS he did know didnt he, GOD is awesome like that.

God is omniscient. He is all knwoing as well as He is omnipotent(all mighty, all powerful) and omnipresent(everywhere at all times).

I guess thats why he gave us the great commission, ( matthew 28:18, 19 , 20. Now why would he leave such simple instructions, is it because he already knew there would be heardened hearts, or those that would continue to not believe in him, i would think so.

Unfortunatley, many do have hardened hearts. It seems that it doesn't matter what you tell them, they won't accept. They ask for answers, you give them answers, but they don't accept the answers you give them.

Dont get me wrong i do not go around door to door beating people over the head with a bible, telling them to repent the end is near, ( although not a bad idea).

The reason why many accuse us of trying to ram religion down people's throats is because they don't want to hear the gospel. We are not by any means trying to ram anything down their throat, we ar ejsut trying to show them the way of salvation and that Jesus loves them. It's amazing how offensive we are because of that.

I feel that society has degressed so rapidly that it is shameful.

Can't expect a society that has rejected God and His Word(the bible) which is the bok of truth, to be a society where people are doing right. Without God in people's hearts, yuo can expect a society that is filled with sin and is in shambles.

knowledge is awesome when used or taught in the right context, ( evolution doesn't fit in there) but it seems to be the excepted doctrines in school, The fact that we as a society have gone away from our stong christian foundation of the constitution, is no wonder we live in the cess pool society is today. Well my ranting will be for another day I guess, I will just post this and get on with it [/B]

Glad you posted this. This is a wonderful post you made. Sadly, new age deception is being taught in schools.

it is specifically mentioned in the First Amendment to NOT mix religion and government!

False

Originally posted by the stark
Now we have the Micro or Macro evolution problem. I'm fine with Micro evolution, small changes like you would get from breeding dogs, the Golden Retriever for instance, still a dog, just prettier, but Macroevolution, where you find huge leaps like lizards to birds or monkey to man, not a chance.
Many small changes over many generations can equal bigger changes. I think macroevolution is a logical step from microevolution.
About the moth...it wasn't that the moth changed at all, what happened is there were more moths left over that were darker. If you were to clean things up the lighter moths would be back. In a nutshell: Same moth, but a wild application.
True. And this is called...say it with me, class..."natural selection". A.K.A. Evolution.
Originally posted by the J Man
Satan's biggest weapon against mankind is deception. His biggest 2 deceptions are that he isn't real and that God isn't real. He has deceived multitudes into believing this evolution theory and disbelieving the Lord Jesus Christ is who is the way, the truth and the life.
We're debating the scientific accuracy of evolution here, not how it fits in with the Bible...if you believe it does not fit with the Bible, fine, but let's leave that out of this debate...
It seems that it doesn't matter what you tell them, they won't accept. They ask for answers, you give them answers, but they don't accept the answers you give them.
I agree with you here. Creationists are like that all the time...:cool:
The reason why many accuse us of trying to ram religion down people's throats is because they don't want to hear the gospel. We are not by any means trying to ram anything down their throat, we ar ejsut trying to show them the way of salvation and that Jesus loves them.
Nobody said that...you're drifting a bit offtopic here...
Can't expect a society that has rejected God and His Word(the bible) which is the bok of truth, to be a society where people are doing right. Without God in people's hearts, yuo can expect a society that is filled with sin and is in shambles.
Tell that to the Greeks and Romans, who prospered quite nicely, thank you very much, without a Judeochristian deity.
Glad you posted this. This is a wonderful post you made. Sadly, new age deception is being taught in schools.
The only deception here is you deceiving yourself into believing evolution does not exist...
Originally posted by DaveTooner
False
THREADJACK!!!

Thanks J man, i appreciate the encouragement, its nice to know there are those that know the truth

THANK YOU, asshole, for answering for me! And you were oh-so-accurate too! Self-righteous prick.

Apparently the secularists don't like being on the defensive side for once.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Apparently the secularists don't like being on the defensive side for once.
Dave, if you have an argument for or against evolution, we'd be glad to hear it. If not, it's best to just sit and watch and avoid posting intentionally inflammatory (a.k.a. TROLL) remarks here.

Speaking of, I see no responses to my last post...

Borg,

Its became aware to me, that you only say such things to people who are supporting those, whose ideas are in contrast to yours.

I have seen countless people make such posts that are on your side of the argument, and I dont recall you hinting that they are trolling.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Borg,

Its became aware to me, that you only say such things to people who are supporting those, whose ideas are in contrast to yours.

I have seen countless people make such posts that are on your side of the argument, and I dont recall you hinting that they are trolling.
LMAO!!! That's hilarious! "You're accusing a guy making an obviously intentionally inflammatory post which adds nothing to the discussion of doing exactly that! That must mean you're a hypocrite!"

Im not seeing the humor or where you got that opinion.

I think its good that you would not let people just post for no reason, however, I have never seen you say that anyone who is supporting someone off your side of the religious spectrum.

so here i am just goofing around when i came upon this story, so i thought i would share itEvolution Fairy Tales


NOT-TRUE- STORY-TIME



Let me tell you what evolution says...

A long time ago, don't know when and don't know where, because there wasn't any where and there wasn't any time. But, a long time ago there was nothing and it was no where that makes sense. Nothing can be no where. Nothing doesn't have to have somewhere to be, because it is nothing, and nothing can be no where. A long time ago there was nothing no where, a long time ago when there wasn't anywhere.

And one day this nothing all got together and decided to be something. Now something can't be nowhere, so nowhere is now somewhere, because you see it has to have somewhere to be something. Because nothing can be nowhere, but something can't be nowhere, it has to be somewhere. So now nowhere is somewhere and now nothing is something and this is a long time ago when there wasn't anywhere anyway.

And now this nothing that has become something is somewhere a long time ago when there wasn't anywhere and it got to going round and round real fast and a chunk of something flew off of something which was formally nothing and is now something and when it cooled, it is the earth you live on and that's really something. And they don't know where the sunshine came from, but you can't live without it so that's handy and they don't know where the water came from, but you've got to have it and you can't live without it, so that's handy.

And so there was water and sunshine and wind and the wind blew and the sun shone and the water rippled and the wind blew and the sun shone and the water rippled and the wind blew and the sun shone and the water rippled and that went on and on and nobody knows how long cause there was nobody here anyway.

And then one day a glob of jelly (protoplasm - amoeba) came floating up out of the water and it landed on the shore. Now most jelly would have gone right back in the next wave but not this one, it was a real sticker and it stuck right there for over four million years. For four million years doing nothing. One day it began to wiggle, I don't blame it, after four million years, I'd do something too. Now it began to wiggle and squiggle and giggle and then it came alive and then it died and the sands of time buried it, and it came alive and then it died and the sands of time buried it and it came alive and it died and it lived and it died and it lived and now you're not going to believe just what I'm going to tell you, but now, he teaches over there at the university. Don't get mad at me, I didn't say it. Evolution said it!



Another Not-True Story
I don't mean that this story isn't true.

On the contrary, it is very true indeed. You see, I know the boy concerned very well, and he wouldn't tell a fib to save his life. I'm going to call him Donald, just so you won't know who he is. Donald brought the story home from school one day, and told his daddy what he had heard.

It was like this: In history class the teacher wanted to begin right at the beginnings of things, and so he told this curious tale. He said that life began on this world as a tiny speck of some sort of slimy stuff in the sea. This tiny speck gradually grew and grew, and then broke up, part of it deciding to become a fish, part of it be_ coming a plant, and part of it crawling up on the land and turn_ing into a worm.

From this first fish, this first plant, and this first little worm, all the fishes and all the plants and all the animals have come.

At least, so the teacher said. Then he went on to try to trace the history of the worm until at last, after billions and billions of years, it became an animal with legs! What an absurd idea!

This worm, he said, as it began to crawl on its tummy, developed a wart, and this wart became a leg. Some worms got four warts, and so they grew four legs. Others got lots of warts, and so they turned into centipedes.

Animals got eyes, he said, because as the light of the sun played upon them, a freckle came out which after a while turned into an eye.

Then as millions of years passed, some of the worms that had developed legs from their warts became dogs, some of them became cats, some of them became leopards, and some lions, tigers, giraffes, and so on.

One set of worms worked along, so the teacher said, until they had grown arms as well as legs, and became monkeys. The more advanced monkeys were playing about with some sticks one day, when they accidentally rubbed them together and made the first spark of fire. So after that they were able to light fires when they wanted to; and gradually, because of the extra warmth, their hair fell off and they turned into men!

Well, that was the story the teacher told Donald in school. It is a story that is being told to children all over the country today, indeed, all around the world. But it is not a true story. Not a bit of it!

It is not true, because God has told us in the Bible that He created all things. They did not "evolve" through millions and billions of years from a speck of slime in the sea. He made them all Himself by His own wisdom and might. As we read in the Psalms: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." "For He spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:6, 9.

As for man himself, we are told: "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them." Genesis 1:27.

And, after all, how very silly is this untrue story that is being told to so many boys and girls today! If you stop to think about it for but a few minutes, you just have to laugh.

Take that first speck of slime in the sea. Who put it there? Who made the sea for it to grow in? Who made the land onto which that first worm crawled when it got tired of being in the sea?

Then think of those poor little worms with the warts on their tummies. How did they get the warts in the right places so that the legs came where they would be useful? And why didn't they get still more warts on their legs as well, and so have them sticking out in all directions?

It's all too silly for words, isn't it? But think about those eyes. Oh dear! The sun kept playing on a freckle until an eye came out, they say. But why did it choose a freckle beside the animal's nose? And then choose another freckle on the other side of its nose? Why didn't it choose a freckle on the back of its head, or on its legs, or possibly on its tail? Indeed, why didn't eyes start bobbing out all over its body?

And then, if it really were the rays of the sun that caused the freckles to turn into eyes, why didn't they make them strong enough to bear the light? Why, after making eyes, did the same sunbeams form eyelids to keep the light out?

And now we come to those poor monkeys who are supposed to have turned into men. They lost their hair because they dis_covered fire, and so didn't need it any more!

Did they, indeed? Why, then, didn't they lose it off their heads at the same time? And why don't cats lose their hair nowadays when they sleep by the fire? And why do monkeys that live in hot countries still have their hair today?

No, children, this story that is going around is neither true nor sensible. It has been made up by people who do not love the Bible and are trying to find some other explanation of how things carne on this earth. And if you ask me, I think their story is a thousand times more difficult to believe than the simple Bible story of Creation.



Fruit Flies Speak Up!
In 1906 a scientist decided to do research to see if he could show that one kind of animal could ‘evolve’ or change into another kind. His name was Thomas Hunt Morgan, and he decided to use fruit flies to do his study.

Fruit flies grow up very quickly and in just 10-12 days they can lay eggs and these in turn grow up in another 10-12 days. They are very small; thousands can be kept in a bottle; they don’t cost much to feed; just a few ripe bananas.

Thus they could study many generations of fruit flies in a short time, which they could not do with mammals. So month after month and year after year they kept breeding their flies.

Evolutionists believed that one animal gradually could change into a different one through ‘mutations’. That means an ‘accident’ happens in the genes, and the animal is born different than its parents. They believed that with all these generations of fruit flies they could see this happen.

But even though some flies would hatch out with different colours, or longer legs, or more or less bristles, or facets in their compound eyes, they were still fruit flies, nothing more, nothing less. How would you like to spend years counting bristles on a fly or facets on their eyes? Trying to prove evolution isn’t much fun.

So then they began to expose the flies to radiation and X-rays to cause more mutations to happen. But they found that mutations were always harmful and the flies would either die, not have babies, or in a few generations change back to normal flies. The obstinate, stubborn little creatures!

They were even able to get some flies with small or no wings. What do you call a ‘fly’ with no wings? Is that a ‘crawl’? But again they would either die or if they took special care of them, their children would go back to being normal flies after a few generations. And always they were fruit flies, nothing more and nothing less.

They found that they could get the flies to vary in small ways but only up to a point then they would have no babies and die out; or the babies would go back to being ordinary flies.

You may have heard silly stories these days that a ‘mutant’ is somehow something stronger with super powers? Well, that is just a fairy tale. For 80 years all over the world these experiments have gone on for millions of generations, this is equal to millions of years of ‘evolution’ and still the fruit fly is just a fruit fly! Never has a mutation occurred that would make them better or stronger, all mutations made them weaker and they would die out.

"God was very careful in Genesis to state that each of the animals were created `after his kind.' After 80 years and millions of generations, God was proven right: A fruit fly will always be a fruit fly."—"Evolutionists Still Looking for a `Good Accident,' " Battle Cry, July-August, 1990. =^..^=

HISTORY



BEHIND THE SCENES WITH EVOLUTION

Charles Darwin (1809-1882) was the man that has the most credit for the modern ideas of evolution. People have the idea he was a serious scientist and very smart to have figured out such wonderful things. But the truth is very different:

He was born into a wealthy family and able to have a life of ease. He took two years of medical school at Edinburgh University, and then dropped out. This was the only training in ‘science’ he ever had. He liked to hang out with friends in the bars and party, so he didn’t do too well at his studies.

Darwin had no aim in life so His dad decided to get him a nicely paid job as an Anglican minister. Darwin did not object.

But a relative got him a chance to go as unpaid "naturalist" on a ship planning to sail around the world, the Beagle. The voyage lasted from December 1831 to October 1836.

It is of interest that, after getting into spiritualism, certain men in history have been seized with a deep hatred of God and have then been guided to make evil teachings that have destroyed large numbers of people, while others have engaged in wars, which have killed millions. We think of such known spiritists as Sigmund Freud and Adolf Hitler.

Most people don’t know that Charles Darwin, while a naturalist aboard the Beagle, was initiated into witchcraft in South America by devil worshippers. He took part in their ceremonies and, as a result, something happened to him. Upon his return to England, although his health was strangely weakened, - he spent the rest of his life working on theories to destroy faith in the Creator.

After leaving South America, Darwin was on the Galapagos Islands for a few days. While there, he saw some finches, which had blown in from South America and adapted to their environment, producing several varieties. He was certain that this showed evolution and change into new species. But they were still finches; they weren’t something different. This theory about the finches was the main evidence of evolution he brought back with him to England.

His book, Origin of the Species, was first published in November 1859. The full title, On the Origin of the Species by Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life, reveals the viciousness of the idea; this theory led directly to two of the worst wars in the history of man-kind.

In his book, Darwin had little evidence if any for what he had to say. Modern evolutionists are ashamed of the book with its foolish ideas. Most people believe it is a wonderful, scientific book, but they haven’t read it. Evolutionists today prefer that people don’t read it. But because it said what people who didn’t want to obey God wanted to believe, it became very popular.

Darwin would say he would have more evidence later to prove what he was saying; But, although he wrote other books, try as he may he never could find the proof for his stories. No one since has found it either. Basically the whole thing is a fairy-tale for grown-ups. With thinking like this, who needs science? But remember that Charles Darwin never had a day of schooling in the sciences.

As mentioned earlier, scientists today are ashamed of Darwin's ideas. He frequently commented in private letters that he saw that there was no evidence for his theory, and that it could destroy the morality of the human race.

"Long before the reader has arrived at this part of my work, a crowd of difficulties will have occurred to him. Some of them are so serious that to this day I can hardly reflect on them without in some degree becoming staggered" (*Charles Darwin, Origin of the Species, 1860, p. 178. "Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy" (*Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229).

After taking part in the witchcraft ceremonies, not only was his mind affected but his body also. He developed a chronic and incapacitating illness, and went to his death under a depression he could not shake. What a sad life story to have written in the books of heaven! =^..^=


HOME * CONTENTS * TOP * LIBRARY * UPDATES

CD OFFER FREE BOOKS FORUM

LINKS * COMMENTS * SEARCH

Your anecdotes are utterly irrelevant, max. Evolution never claims anything like "an amoeba sat on the beach for four million years and came alive" or any such B.S. What you're doing is called "spinning", deliberately misrepresenting evolution in an attempt to make it easier to tear down. A Straw Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html), in fact. If you can come up with scientific reason why evolution is impossible, go right ahead...but your little tales do nothing but pander to your side and make you feel good, rather than actually debate the subject at hand.

It is of interest that, after getting into spiritualism, certain men in history have been seized with a deep hatred of God and have then been guided to make evil teachings that have destroyed large numbers of people, while others have engaged in wars, which have killed millions. We think of such known spiritists as Sigmund Freud and Adolf Hitler.

Sigmund Freud?? What did he have to do with destroying people or wars??

Most people don’t know that Charles Darwin, while a naturalist aboard the Beagle, was initiated into witchcraft in South America by devil worshippers. He took part in their ceremonies and, as a result, something happened to him. Upon his return to England, although his health was strangely weakened

What is this nonsense?? Where did you get this from?

And Darwin had Chagas Disease.

we as a society have gone away from our stong christian foundation

I am glad about that. Religious freedom, objective thoughts, tolerance--these are good. I don't want to live in a nation predominantly influenced by a single religion. Least of all so much so that it could call itself "Christian Nation", almost like a theocracy.

Before i comment on this i would like to see where you got that from. If its true you have struck a major blow.

I am glad about that. Religious freedom, objective thoughts, tolerance--these are good. I don't want to live in a nation predominantly influenced by a single religion. Least of all so much so that it could call itself "Christian Nation", almost like a theocracy.

Religious freedom is good, I agree, but as far as a Christian Nation goes, I think we lost that title awhile ago.
Tell me, say this country was or is a predominantly Christian Nation, how does that effect your freedom?
On the other side of the coin we know what happens when Atheism takes over in a country, look at communism, the only religion permitted is Atheism, no freedom of religion, no freedom.

I agree with Stark.

The fact that you live in a Christian nation (or what was intended to be) is your choice. You have the right to remain believing in whatever you want, but this nation was founded and should remain (as close we can get it back to) a Christian Nation.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The fact that you live in a Christian nation (or what was intended to be) is your choice. You have the right to remain believing in whatever you want, but this nation was founded and should remain (as close we can get it back to) a Christian Nation.
Then kindly explain the First Amendment, which explicitly states to keep your religion the hell out of our government, and we'll keep our government out of your religion.

Our definition of church and state is not the same as what our forefathers had.

The framers of our constitution wanted Christianity to be a huge part in the forming and growth of our nation. They only didnt want there to be one national church like in England, and there isnt.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The framers of our constitution wanted Christianity to be a huge part in the forming and growth of our nation. They only didnt want there to be one national church like in England, and there isnt.
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." -- John Adams

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." -- James Madison

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." -- Treaty of Tripoli

Not to mention the fact that the only times any religious term is used in the Constitution, it is in the context of "freedom of religion" or "no religious test shall be required for public office". You misunderstand the basic principles of the Constitution and the history behind this nation if you say this nation is a Christian Nation. While a majority of Americans may be Christians, we are NOT a Christian Nation.

The first thing we have to understand, is that America’s current idea of separation of Church and State is not the same, as the one our forefathers had. The purpose of the First Amendment was to inhibit Congress from creating a “national” religion that would prevent religious diversity in the states. (Evans, 128) Although we are told today that even the smallest relationship of church and state is wrong, it was not intended to be by the framers of the constitution. In fact, President George Washington said, “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor...That great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will ever be, that we may then unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people.”

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The first thing we have to understand, is that America’s current idea of separation of Church and State is not the same, as the one our forefathers had.
And? I just gave you evidence that the Founders were deists, not Christians...why would deists want to introduce Christianity into the government? Furthermore, they sure did a good job of hiding it, as the Constitution makes no mention of God at all, and the mentions to religion are in the context of freedom of religion.
The purpose of the First Amendment was to inhibit Congress from creating a “national” religion that would prevent religious diversity in the states.
And by calling America a "Christian Nation", you are preventing religious diversity.
Although we are told today that even the smallest relationship of church and state is wrong
How true that is...
it was not intended to be by the framers of the constitution.
Did you even READ my post?! Read those quotes again!
In fact, President George Washington said, “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor...That great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will ever be, that we may then unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people.”
Actually, what the Founders said in public and what they said in private were two entirely different things. Professing many of their religious beliefs in public would be political suicide. We know, from their private writings, what their true intentions were. You would do well to study the subject a bit.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
And? I just gave you evidence that the Founders were deists, not Christians...why would deists want to introduce Christianity into the government? Furthermore, they sure did a good job of hiding it, as the Constitution makes no mention of God at all, and the mentions to religion are in the context of freedom of religion.

The Forefathers couldnt have done more to promote the idea. They used the Constitution to prevent a national church. They spelled out in the Decleration of Indepence that we all endowed by our creator. You have seen a quote by Washing that says the exact opposite of what youre proof was.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
[B]And by calling America a "Christian Nation", you are preventing religious diversity.

Absolutely Untrue. Christanity loves all and respects the rights of others, while bringing the good news of Christ.




Originally posted by BorgHunter

Actually, what the Founders said in public and what they said in private were two entirely different things. Professing many of their religious beliefs in public would be political suicide. We know, from their private writings, what their true intentions were. You would do well to study the subject a bit.

The fact was, that they felt it important to worship God. Our nation was and is a gift from God, and there are people who are doing all they can to selfishly turn their backs on him.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The Forefathers couldnt have done more to promote the idea. They used the Constitution to prevent a national church. They spelled out in the Decleration of Indepence that we all endowed by our creator.
The Creator spoken of in the Declaration of Independence (which, by the way, is not a legal document and has no power over the United States at all) is used in the deistic sense. We know this because Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, was a deist. He made this eminently clear. Again...

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson
You have seen a quote by Washing that says the exact opposite of what youre proof was.
I already refuted that.
Absolutely Untrue. Christanity loves all and respects the rights of others, while bringing the good news of Christ.
No news of Christ in the Constitution. Thus, no basis for the statement "We are a Christian Nation".
The fact was, that they felt it important to worship God. Our nation was and is a gift from God, and there are people who are doing all they can to selfishly turn their backs on him.
You can call me selfish all you want, Jere. The point remains that the Founding Fathers did not believe it was important to make this nation religious at all. In fact, they felt the exact opposite way, and tried to make the government as secular as possible. Most of them were deists anyway, and deists obviously have no need to worship their God.

Originally posted by BorgHunter


Not to mention the fact that the only times any religious term is used in the Constitution, it is in the context of "freedom of religion" or "no religious test shall be required for public office". You misunderstand the basic principles of the Constitution and the history behind this nation if you say this nation is a Christian Nation. While a majority of Americans may be Christians, we are NOT a Christian Nation.

I personally don't see how the majority of Americans are christians. Most people I know don't go to church at all and don;t even consider themselves christian. Going to church as it is, is not what makes someone a christian. It is the life that the person lives that shows they have truly accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour.

Our society is very secular. They are missing out on what a personal relationship with Jesus is about. It is life changing if that person desires that.

If we have Godly people in the government, the government wouldn't be so corrupt. The government(both here in Canada and the U.S.) is extemely corrupt. They lie and cheat. They don;t want you to get ahead and they feedoff the public trough. We need Godly people who desire to do what is right in the sight of God, running the government. These people will make wise decisions and not screw the citizens around.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
In fact, President George Washington said, “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor...That great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will ever be, that we may then unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people.”

If people in our society acknowledged God and obeyed His will, this society wouldn't be so messed up.

You mean, if everyone did. There are plenty who do now.

You have seen a quote by Washing that says the exact opposite of what youre proof was.
George Washington had no influence on the founding of this nation whatsoever. He was the only one who was even remotely religious, he became president because he was A)Popular with all at the time, B)A General and a good leader, C)They needed a Southerner. He was nothing more than a President, we can thank him for setting standards for the presidency, not much more.

If we have Godly people in the government, the government wouldn't be so corrupt.
Wait, what is this, 99% of politicians are christians? The vast majority protestant, all of these "moral" people who screw with the law?

If people in our society acknowledged God and obeyed His will, this society wouldn't be so messed up.
I think it's messed up because religious people don't know how to stay out of government. Prohibition? Religious movement. Pat Robertson? Religious Jackass. Fundamentalist movement? Interference in government, really bad TV shows. KKK? Black people are from Satan. We don't need religious people, we need people who abscribe to philosophical ethics.

Originally posted by Blibblob

George Washington had no influence on the founding of this nation whatsoever. He was the only one who was even remotely religious, he became president because he was A)Popular with all at the time, B)A General and a good leader, C)They needed a Southerner. He was nothing more than a President, we can thank him for setting standards for the presidency, not much more

He was president of the first continental congress. People idolized him, for his character. He wasnt a military genius by any stretch, he was a displicined surveyer with the people on his side and Christ in his heart.


Wait, what is this, 99% of politicians are christians? The vast majority protestant, all of these "moral" people who screw with the law?

Just because 99% say they are Christians, dont mean they are.

I'm still waiting for your reply to me, Jere...

I did Borg, its up the page a couple posts.

Originally posted by Blibblob


If we have Godly people in the government, the government wouldn't be so corrupt.
Wait, what is this, 99% of politicians are christians? The vast majority protestant, all of these "moral" people who screw with the law?

Do you think think that perhpas them calling themselves christian is just a cover up? A tree will be known by it's fruit. In relaity, not toomany politicans are christians who walk with God. Some may call themselves christian, but their actions show otherwise.



If people in our society acknowledged God and obeyed His will, this society wouldn't be so messed up.
I think it's messed up because religious people don't know how to stay out of government. Prohibition? Religious movement. Pat Robertson? Religious Jackass. Fundamentalist movement? Interference in government, really bad TV shows. KKK? Black people are from Satan. We don't need religious people, we need people who abscribe to philosophical ethics. [/B]

Christianity and religion are totally different things. The Lord Jesus Christ is not about religion. It is about relationship with the creator of the entire universe and acceptiong Jesus as Lord and saviour.

The KKK are deffenitely not christian. That is nothingmore than a cover up. If they loved God, they wouldn't be into the bigotry they are into. How can they love God and hate pthers. It's also amazing how the leadership position of the KKK is called "Grand Wizard." The bible forbids all witchcraft and wizardry(Deuteronomy18:10-12 and Leviticus20:6 are just a couple of scriptures an that).

If someone truly has Jesus in their hearts, they wouldn't be fillled with corruption and wickedness. Just because there are some who "profess" christianity and live corrupt lives, doesn't mean we are all like that.

Godly people would strive to do the right thing if they were in the governmewnt. They would strive to run their country the right way unlike the corrupt government that is in power now.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
The Creator spoken of in the Declaration of Independence (which, by the way, is not a legal document and has no power over the United States at all) is used in the deistic sense. We know this because Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, was a deist. He made this eminently clear. Again...

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -- Thomas Jefferson


Thomas Jefferson has had a history of saying one thing and believing another. He said that all men are created equal, yet held slaves.

Is it unfair to reason, he may have said this quote, but still believed in God?




No news of Christ in the Constitution. Thus, no basis for the statement "We are a Christian Nation".

Would you prefer the term, a nation under god.

You can call me selfish all you want, Jere. The point remains that the Founding Fathers did not believe it was important to make this nation religious at all. In fact, they felt the exact opposite way, and tried to make the government as secular as possible. Most of them were deists anyway, and deists obviously have no need to worship their God. [/B]

I think we are going to have agree to disagree.

He was president of the first continental congress. People idolized him, for his character. He wasnt a military genius by any stretch, he was a displicined surveyer with the people on his side and Christ in his heart.
Who had no influence on the creation of the constitution. The religious views of one man who had no part does not override the views of the many who did take part.

Do you think think that perhpas them calling themselves christian is just a cover up? A tree will be known by it's fruit. In relaity, not toomany politicans are christians who walk with God. Some may call themselves christian, but their actions show otherwise.
Your point? These are the religious people. I don't care what the specifics of their beliefs are, they're religious and what they believe is quite similar to countless other "christians". Pick and choose from the bible, you all do it. That's the religious world, we don't need the religious world, and they certainly should have no influence on politics. We need philosophically ethical people, not god fearing ones. Fear clouds your judgment.

Christianity and religion are totally different things. The Lord Jesus Christ is not about religion. It is about relationship with the creator of the entire universe and acceptiong Jesus as Lord and saviour.
Which has no grounding in government. Give unto Ceaser what is his. It only interferes with the proper dealings of a governing body that has to take care of more than just Christians.

Godly people would strive to do the right thing if they were in the governmewnt. They would strive to run their country the right way unlike the corrupt government that is in power now.
Like interfering with the Human Rights and Civil Liberties of people for "godly" reasons?

Thomas Jefferson has had a history of saying one thing and believing another. He said that all men are created equal, yet held slaves.
Thomas Jefferson was known to have to relinquish his core beliefs in order to make the government run while he was in office. His slaves were servants, and quite possibly fathered more than one with them.

Is it unfair to reason, he may have said this quote, but still believed in God?
He did, but just like all deists, he didn't think god had any bearing on earthly life.

Would you prefer the term, a nation under god.
I say no, and I'm sure borg does too.

Good Points Blib...but Im actually going to get into one thing you replied to someone else before I jump back into the replies to me, (not enough time before the game)

Im referring to your answer here:


Your point? These are the religious people. I don't care what the specifics of their beliefs are, they're religious and what they believe is quite similar to countless other "christians". Pick and choose from the bible, you all do it. That's the religious world, we don't need the religious world, and they certainly should have no influence on politics. We need philosophically ethical people, not god fearing ones. Fear clouds your judgment.

See the thing is, you were saying that 99% of politicans are Christians, not religious. You do not just say you are a Christian. You can claim to be religious, but you just cant claim to be a Christian. Thats the difference.

They can hide from the fact that they are or that they arent Christians, but they cant hide from God.

See the thing is, you were saying that 99% of politicans are Christians, not religious. You do not just say you are a Christian. You can claim to be religious, but you just cant claim to be a Christian. Thats the difference.
Okay, I'll clarify more. Sure they can. How do you get in heaven? Believe in Jesus. Do you need to be a nice person? According to all of you, no. They may not follow all of those religious laws, but they believe in Jesus, thus they are Christians.

No, believing in Christ does not make you a Christian. Accepting Christ into your heart makes you a Christian. Most people fall into the believe in Jesus but are not saved category.

No, believing in Christ does not make you a Christian. Accepting Christ into your heart makes you a Christian. Most people fall into the believe in Jesus but are not saved category.
Well, from what I've seen, you're all alone in that requirement.

I dont know what you mean exactly, but no Christian will tell you that just because we believe in Christ makes us what we are. We have to accept him as our savior, accept him into our hearts, believe that he died on the cross for our sins, and that he is the one and only way into Heaven.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
We have to accept him as our savior, accept him into our hearts, believe that he died on the cross for our sins, and that he is the one and only way into Heaven.

Fine...but which of these beliefs prevents you from being corrupt?

Actually Jere, you have to consider these points:

We can read in history books about the position taken by the early Christians regarding politics. Thus the book Christianity and the Roman Government by E. G. Hardy speaks of early Christians and “their aversion to all civic duties and offices.” Another book, On the Road to Civilization, A World History, by Heckel and Sigman, tells us: “Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. ._._. They would not hold political office.”

Were those early Christians wrong in not trying to better the world by taking part in politics? How could they be? They had Christ Jesus, the Founder of Christianity, and his apostles to guide them.

The Textbook of Christianity, the Bible, tells us why those early Christians shunned politics. It shows that a fundamental principle of Christianity is separateness from the world. And the early Christians changed their lives to live up to this requirement for right worship. Said the Bible writer James: “The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.” “Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” To delve into politics would mean to show friendship for the world, and to show friendship for the world would mean to make oneself an enemy of God. That is why the early Christians shunned politics.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4, NW.
But why should true Christians shun politics when they could do much, seemingly, to better the world? The answer is, as the Bible shows, that true Christians do not advocate or preach democracy, socialism, communism or any other form of human government as a remedy for the world’s woes. What Christians preach is a heavenly government, the kingdom of God. And that kingdom is not part of this world. Said Jesus: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—John 18:36, NW.

God’s kingdom is no mere social reform. It is the government that will rule the universe. To make way for the universal rule of God’s kingdom, the Bible shows, the political governments of this world must be destroyed. Not from men will come this destruction, but from God. Declared the prophet Daniel: “In the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”—Dan. 2:44, AS.

So the early Christians were careful not to meddle with politics. They knew that God’s kingdom is destined to destroy all political governments and that those involved in politics would be enemies of God and hence also in line for destruction. Vigorously the early Christians preached the Kingdom hope of the world. They showed the utter futility of trusting in human rulers. The apostle Paul wrote: “Now we speak wisdom among those who are adults, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things who are to come to nothing.” We are still living in what the Bible calls this “present wicked system of things.” But soon now at the impending war of Armageddon the rulers of this world will come to nothing. Those persons friendly with the world are in line for the same fate.—1_Cor. 2:6; Gal. 1:4, NW.

Jesus wanted his followers to live and not suffer destruction with this evil world. So he urged them, not to participate in politics, but to stay separate from the world. He set the example himself and always lived up to his words: “I am no part of the world.”—John 17:16, NW.

On one occasion the populace of Galilee wanted Jesus to plunge into politics. The people saw that Jesus was righteous and wise and they realized that he would make the ideal political ruler. They may have felt that Jesus was merely throwing away his opportunities by preaching a future kingdom when he could have a kingdom right there and then. How did Jesus respond to the crowd’s popular draft? “Therefore Jesus, realizing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.” No politics for Jesus!—John 6:15, NW.

The reason I posted this is to show that no true Christian can say be a politician. If he is , he is being a hypocrite. All of this is scriptural. Blib said earlier that christians pick and choose what part of the Bible they want to adhere to. I want to assure him that not all christians do...

This is one point where I think JW's are obsurd.

The belief that a Christian can not vote or be in politics because it is "worldly" I think that is just so stupid.


You are on a message board right now.....there are non Christians on this message board....does that mean you are partaking in something worldly? I mean, if youre going to enforce one aspect, you might as well go off to an Amish settlement, and just go without electricity, because, electricity is worldly.


Back to Pagan....The aspect that keeps you from being corrupt is Christ Jesus. Sure, we all sin, and we are going to make mistakes, but we have forgivnesss through Christ, and he will help us not to be corrupt. A Christian, although a sinner, will not sin all the time, sin to just make his political base stronger or whathave you.

Originally posted by Blibblob

Give unto Ceaser what is his. It only interferes with the proper dealings of a governing body that has to take care of more than just Christians.

[/B]

YOU CANNOT PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE JERE! YOU call yourself the christian kid yet when i give you SCRIPTURE that shows you that JESUS said these things, you attack my religion calling it absurd, when my religion is only doing what you and all other christians should be doing! Please Jere use discernment!!! And you and I know that illustration you gave was totally absurd. I take offense to you even trying to bring that up.

All your verses show is that Jesus was not in politics. There are plenty of people in the bible who were. David, Solomon, and Jesus is the King of Kings after all.

JW, the reasons you gave for christians not dealing in politics, democracy,etc. Seem to be the same basic methods that the Islam dictators have used for years to control and dominate the Arab republics. There also the religion is the ruling law.

Jere did you really read what I wrote? And when did David and those other examples of yours live? BEFORE Christ. So does it not make sense that we should follow Christ example. Anyway those example had God behind them because they were chosen by him and were a part of his nation, Israel. And yes Jesus is King of Kings. All the more reason not to put our trust in men other than he.

Originally posted by Blibblob


Your point? These are the religious people. I don't care what the specifics of their beliefs are, they're religious and what they believe is quite similar to countless other "christians". Pick and choose from the bible, you all do it. That's the religious world, we don't need the religious world, and they certainly should have no influence on politics. We need philosophically ethical people, not god fearing ones. Fear clouds your judgment.

There are christians who walk with God. Someone being religious does not mean they are walking with God. Religion can be practically anything, but that has nothing to do with knowing Jesus as Lord and saviour.

Pick and choose from the bible? The bible is the Word of God and is the book of truth. I certainly just don't pick and choose. God's Word is what convicts me to live the way God wants me to. Your right, we don;t need a religious world, we need Jesus.

Having thefear of God, does not eman the same thing as beinf afraid or terrified. The fear of God means to have reverance and honor for God and to live by His commands. Having the fear of God would never cloud anyone's judgement but rather would give them discernment and enhance their judgement so they can make wise decisions.




Godly people would strive to do the right thing if they were in the governmewnt. They would strive to run their country the right way unlike the corrupt government that is in power now.
Like interfering with the Human Rights and Civil Liberties of people for "godly" reasons?

Interfering with human rights and civil liberties is not Godly. A Godly governent would deny human being of their rights.

Originally posted by Blibblob

Okay, I'll clarify more. Sure they can. How do you get in heaven? Believe in Jesus. Do you need to be a nice person? According to all of you, no. They may not follow all of those religious laws, but they believe in Jesus, thus they are Christians. [/B]

The bible tells us to love one another and to do unto others as you want done unto you. It also tells you not to gossip or slander and to be honest, etc. Therefore being a nice person is exteremely important and if you love God, you would want to treat others right and do good towards others.

Good works, however is not what saves you and gets you into Heaven. Jesus is the one who died on the corss and paid the debt of sin in full for those who put their trust in Him. Putting your trsut in Him and allowing Him to be Lord in yuor life includes a change of attitude, and you would strive to live righteously. Of course, no-one is perfect and we all miss the mark which is why we need to the grace of God.

Pick and choose from the bible? The bible is the Word of God and is the book of truth. I certainly just don't pick and choose.
Really? JereJere just did it. I'll use the example Vile has given so very many times, do you eat shimp?

Having thefear of God, does not eman the same thing as beinf afraid or terrified. The fear of God means to have reverance and honor for God and to live by His commands. Having the fear of God would never cloud anyone's judgement but rather would give them discernment and enhance their judgement so they can make wise decisions.
So you say, but history does not agree with you. Witchhunts, holy wars. Fearing what god would do because they lived near them. Fear of hell has probably kept many people from discovering the world. It seems those who advanced humanity were fearless of god, who cared not what he thought. Fear of god, of hell is no different than any other fear, at least I've seen no example of it being different, people still make rash judgements.

Interfering with human rights and civil liberties is not Godly. A Godly governent would deny human being of their rights.
Tell that to the Catholic church, the Spanish government throught time, and again Puritan witch hunts. Even modern life, countless fundamentalists want to destroy the freedom of religion, and freedom from it. They want to silence the scientific community from learning centers. Sexism was deeply rooted in religion.

Yeah yeah, they aren't Christians, right... By the requirement placed to be a real christian means there are none, and never were. There are people who base their lives off of philosophical ethics. Religion places far too much restriction on people that I don't even give it a second glance to be good to the government. "Godly" governments throught time have been shown over and over and over again to be dangerous to the people who live under them and neighboring countries.

I think Dan has an excelent point though:
JW, the reasons you gave for christians not dealing in politics, democracy,etc. Seem to be the same basic methods that the Islam dictators have used for years to control and dominate the Arab republics. There also the religion is the ruling law.
Demands of the people under the koran and the bible are hardly noticable. The only real difference between the two is Jesus.

Originally posted by Blibblob


Having thefear of God, does not eman the same thing as beinf afraid or terrified. The fear of God means to have reverance and honor for God and to live by His commands. Having the fear of God would never cloud anyone's judgement but rather would give them discernment and enhance their judgement so they can make wise decisions.
So you say, but history does not agree with you. Witchhunts, holy wars. Fearing what god would do because they lived near them. Fear of hell has probably kept many people from discovering the world. It seems those who advanced humanity were fearless of god, who cared not what he thought. Fear of god, of hell is no different than any other fear, at least I've seen no example of it being different, people still make rash judgements.

Not all christians participated in witch hunts and holy wars. Can you honesty tell me that you know a lot of christians that want to start a war and kill others for not believing?

If yuo walk with God, you don't have to fear going to hell. Jesus had paid for those sins on calvary. Those who reject Him though, and continue to reject Him, they don't want to end up there.

Interfering with human rights and civil liberties is not Godly. A Godly governent would deny human being of their rights.
Tell that to the Catholic church, the Spanish government throught time, and again Puritan witch hunts. Even modern life, countless fundamentalists want to destroy the freedom of religion, and freedom from it. They want to silence the scientific community from learning centers. Sexism was deeply rooted in religion.

It's amazing how many throw away the whole barrel because there are a few bad apples in the barrel. Yes, there are some hypcrites, but not all christians act like that you know. God gave all of us a freewill. He won't step on your freewill, neither will I.

Yeah yeah, they aren't Christians, right... By the requirement placed to be a real christian means there are none,

The requirement is to accept Jessu as Lord and saviour and be a follower of Him. That really isn't that hard to do. God doesn't expect perfection, but He wants our hearts to be right with Him.

Religion places far too much restriction on people that I don't even give it a second glance to be good to the government.

Religion, not christianity.

"Godly" governments throught time have been shown over and over and over again to be dangerous to the people who live under them and neighboring countries.

Not Godly governments, but maybe religious ones. Please show me where governments run by God fearing people have caused that. Not religious governments, but ones who serve the Living God.

It's amazing how many throw away the whole barrel because there are a few bad apples in the barrel. Yes, there are some hypcrites, but not all christians act like that you know. God gave all of us a freewill. He won't step on your freewill, neither will I.

So then why are we going to hell? If we have free will, we shouldn't be punished for exercising it. It's like pointing a gun at someone's head and telling them to get out of their car. They could stay in the car, but then they'd be shot. That doesn't sound like much of a choice.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
So then why are we going to hell? If we have free will, we shouldn't be punished for exercising it. It's like pointing a gun at someone's head and telling them to get out of their car. They could stay in the car, but then they'd be shot. That doesn't sound like much of a choice.

God gave mankind a freewill to accept Him reject Him, to do good or to do evil, to live righteously or to live wickedly. God is the creator of the universe and created us to praise and worship Him. But He won't force us.

Since God is Holy, He has to judge sin. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all need a saviour. Through Jesus Christ, the saviour, our sins have been paid for at calvary that if we accept Him as Lord and savoiur, all our sins are forgiven.

We are all going to spend eternity in one of 2 places. Heaven or hell. Why not choose eternal life in Heaven rather than eternal damnation in hell? Jesus desires for all to know Him as Lord, but He gave us the freewill to choose.