Final Fantasy VII [Archive]

Blibblob

12-12-2004, 06:37 PM

BULLSHIT. each time the story is different. the characters are different. the world's are different. the game system is different. stop lying to yourself!
Story?
Guy of mysterious past battles a cowardly bad guy who is infinitely more awesome than he is and saves the world. There's always a tribally town, a mining town, a technological advanced town, a seaside town, a bunch of stupid forests, and mysterious lands. The story is generic and boring. Why haven't I finished a single FF game? The computer crashed after weeks of playing it like with Tales of Phantasia? No, because I got BORED.
Characters?
Silent lead character, has weird hair, rather short and skinny but still muscular, sexy... swordsman(only exception I can think of is FFVI, generally heralded by the actual gaming community to be the best in the series, most comprehensive, breaking stereotypes, you play as a weird magicy lady)
There's a macho lady, thinks she can protect herself, but always sucks ass... never used
The weird ass lady, this character never makes sense. Oh, they both have a crush on the main character
Big strong stupid guy.
Four main characters, and a couple of back up characters that don't mean shit to the storyline.
Game system? Do you mean style of play? Because that hasn't changed one bit. Menus suck. First time I saw menus playing Final Fantasy IV on a friend's SNES, I thought it was awesome. Then after playing the dozens of more RPGs Square made off of that system and the rest of the FF series, it sucks. It's boring and doesn't imerse you in the game at all. Play Seiken Dentsu 3, or Tales of Phantasia and see an interestingly styled system of fighting. I'm using those games because I know there are dozens more interesting RPGs now, but when speaking of FF it's still stuck in the era of the SNES, it hasn't progressed at all. Oooo! Pretty graphics! Whatever...

Play your game, but stick with discussing your clubbing fetish, games and their intricacies are not something you're knowledgable in.

Overdose

12-12-2004, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
Guy of mysterious past battles a cowardly bad guy who is infinitely more awesome than he is and saves the world. There's always a tribally town, a mining town, a technological advanced town, a seaside town, a bunch of stupid forests, and mysterious lands. The story is generic and boring. Why haven't I finished a single FF game? The computer crashed after weeks of playing it like with Tales of Phantasia? No, because I got BORED.
Apparently you don’t play their games…Blib. Although they have similar lands, they always make each and every town different and full of different things to do. In Final Fantasy VII each character had their own unique town you went to explore…making it interesting to find every hidden thing in the towns to find out about their pasts. In Final Fantasy VIII, they had generic towns. Most of it was dealing with SEED or the School. Very different. While in Final Fantasy IX, the towns were in the past, dealing with castles and medieval traits. In Final Fantasy X it dealt with more water-futuristic lands. Yes, they are similar but also, very different and detailed specifically to each game.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Silent lead character
Yes, I’ll give you that. Cloud, Squall, Zadaine, and Tidus were all very quiet. Although, they had different histories. Cloud was originally a re-make of Sephiroth, but grew into becoming his own. Squall was just a man who was in SEED. Zadaine was originally going to capture the Princess and he was a thief, but became good towards the end. Tidus was just a guy playing Blitzball. They all were similar in their personalities, but not in their history. Which is what makes the games so good.

Originally posted by Blibblob
sexy... swordsman
Okay….

Originally posted by Blibblob
There's a macho lady, thinks she can protect herself, but always sucks ass
Yes, and do you not understand that each and every person in these games has their different type of history? They all have their own stories.

Originally posted by Blibblob
The weird ass lady, this character never makes sense. Oh, they both have a crush on the main character
Big strong stupid guy.
Four main characters, and a couple of back up characters that don't mean shit to the storyline.
Do you know why they call if Final Fantasy? Because the share a lot of the similar make-ups in terms of the games. Yet, each and every character has an original, unique background and that’s what makes it enjoyable.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Game system? Do you mean style of play? Because that hasn't changed one bit. Menus suck. First time I saw menus playing Final Fantasy IV on a friend's SNES, I thought it was awesome.
Wrong. Almost every RPG has a menu etc. Although in FFVII they had Materia. In FFVIII you would DRAW magic and get SEED points. In FFIX you would trade in magic with your weapons. And in FFX I’m not sure, but it was different. They were very different, Blib.

But it really does not matter what you think. The FF's have gotten high marks in about every gaming magazine and have made an extreme amount of money

Lokideviluk

12-13-2004, 07:09 PM

YEh exactly, IGN.com whom im willing to throw it on the line here and the most comprehensive gaming website out there, has loved nigh on all of them. So whilst me and Overdose might not be gaming proffesionals they most certainly are.

The final fantasy series is a series because of one crucial point. PEOPLE ARE BUYING THEM, dont you think that if they were allll sooooo shit that people would have cottoned on by say the 8th or the 9th.... We have got to X-2 and online now and still its full steam ahead.

These games suck you in with rich detailed expansive storylines with (and i totally disagree with you) intriguing storylines for its sub characters. Take vincent in FF7 for christ sake, he was a sub character but had soooo much going on if you cared to look, such as discovering his mother and the connections made.

The battle systems are always different and FF X took it to a whole new level with the Grid system.

You need to realise this games are gaming landmarks for a reason.

Ryan

Blibblob

12-13-2004, 08:01 PM

Yes, they are similar but also, very different and detailed specifically to each game.
Holy crap! The LOOK of something changes entirely it's meaning and place in a story! I have seen the light! And it is in an array of different colours, and they all mean the same thing, er, I mean they're different!

but not in their history.
Oh, their history. Such an interesting and crucial part of their personality... oh wait, those are the same. Such diverse, interesting people... who are the same. Oh, but their mother was different! But they're the same...

Do you know why they call if Final Fantasy? Because the share a lot of the similar make-ups in terms of the games. Yet, each and every character has an original, unique background and that’s what makes it enjoyable.
They all have the same personality! They aren't interesting. They're boring! Stick them in a room together, you wouldn't know who was who other than by their look! Which DOESN'T MATTER. Come on, what books do you read? Goosebumps?

Wrong. Almost every RPG has a menu etc. Although in FFVII they had Materia. In FFVIII you would DRAW magic and get SEED points. In FFIX you would trade in magic with your weapons. And in FFX I’m not sure, but it was different. They were very different, Blib.
"Hey, Bob. Management said we had to do something different to combat"
"Add a new menu option, Joe"
"Didn't we do that last time?"
"Change the name"
"Oh, okay"

But it really does not matter what you think. The FF's have gotten high marks in about every gaming magazine and have made an extreme amount of money
So, the amount something sells tells us exactly how good they are? So, does this mean Britney Spears is as musically diverse, tallented and articulate as... say Jimi Hendrix? That Evenescense is as good as Led Zeppelin? Or, ICP is better than Bach, or Linkin Park are better musicians than Rachmaninoff. Oh, obviously new mainstream is better, they got awards! Jimi Hendrix? Led Zeppelin? Awards? No way. Neither did the Who. Who sold more? Oh, the teen idol. Who's better? The Who. How much you sell, how much the mainstream likes doesn't matter at all. The mainstream can be swayed by pretty graphics. They can be given the same storyline over and over and over again, because they don't have the attention span to remember the last one. Actually, there's quite a big chance that they never played the earlier ones. The mainstream is no judge of quality. If it was, we'd be proclaiming Britney Spears as the greates musician of all time instead of Jimi Hendrix.

YEh exactly, IGN.com whom im willing to throw it on the line here and the most comprehensive gaming website out there, has loved nigh on all of them.
THE WORLD IS DOOMED!!! IGN?! A COMPREHENSIVE gaming website? I take a DIRECT insult to that. Look at this: They gave Caesar III an 8.3! WHAT? Black and White? 9.7! Black and White was horrible! The only thing remotely interesting about that game was that you could bitchslap your monsters! Call of Duty came out lower than Medal of Honor. Call of Duty was a more comprehensive and entriguing game by far, it's the only one still installed on my computer. They gave GTA 3 a 9.4. That game gets boring after about a half an hour of play. Raping prostitutes and killing old people for money really isn't that interesting. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic only got a 9. And I will say, that is the BEST RPG I have EVER played. Storyline is so god damn deep you almost CRY.

You need to realise this games are gaming landmarks for a reason.
http://www.emulationzone.org/consoles/snes/rpg.htm
Educate thyself grasshopper. I believe it is missing a few that were translated for emulation after it was written.

Read Penny Arcade, Ctrl-Alt-Del, VGCats. Educate thyself on QUALITY, not QUANTITY.

Overdose

12-13-2004, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
Holy crap! The LOOK of something changes entirely it's meaning and place in a story! I have seen the light! And it is in an array of different colours, and they all mean the same thing, er, I mean they're different!
Did you not even pay attention to anything I said, Blib? In most RPG’s you have a world map, and places you travel/explore to. That’s a major point in the RPG world, exploration. Each world map in every Final Fantasy is different and deals with different time periods and ideas. One was futuristic, one was medieval, one dealt with water and one dealt with more magical/present settings. They are different, you just refuse to admit it. That really isn’t my problem.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Oh, their history. Such an interesting and crucial part of their personality... oh wait, those are the same. Such diverse, interesting people... who are the same. Oh, but their mother was different! But they're the same...
They all have the same personality! They aren't interesting. They're boring! Stick them in a room together, you wouldn't know who was who other than by their look! Which DOESN'T MATTER. Come on, what books do you read? Goosebumps?
Wrong

Let me give you some examples of the main characters in each game and an overview of their history/personality.

Cloud
Arrogant, cocky, and full of ambition, Cloud fights as a mercenary who later joins AVALANCHE in order to grab some quick cash. What seems like a simple bombing mission turns into a quest to seek the warrior he once stood beside. Throughout his adventure, Cloud is forced to take on the challenges of facing the identity of his own life as well as struggle to save the planet.

Squall
Keeping a somewhat quiet profile, this expressionless and distant teenager devotes his future development in Balamb. Though his ambition isn't shortsided, his team spirit is very much lacking. Equipped with a gunblade, a combined sword and gun, and eager to join the elite military organization known as SeeD, Squall is thrown into the mysterious conspiracy of rivalry in a world soon to be plaqued by chaos.

Zadaine
Living moment to moment with nothing to lose, Zidane lives his life as a thief in Tantalus with no memory of his past. Optimistic and endearing through his high confidence, Zidane focuses his premature appeal for girls onto Princess Garnet shortly after her kidnapping. However, the more he begins to discover who he is, the more his personality begins to fade.

Tidus
Tidus is a vibrant and energetic youth from the futuristic city of Zanarkand. When Zanarkand is attacked by Sin, he wakes up in Spira, a thousand years later. He joins Yuna on her quest to eliminate Sin, hoping that when he comes face to face with what brought him here, it will be enough to take him home.
All very different. Deal with it. You’re wrong.

Originally posted by Blibblob
"Hey, Bob. Management said we had to do something different to combat"
"Add a new menu option, Joe"
"Didn't we do that last time?"
"Change the name"
"Oh, okay"
Luckily you offered nothing of substance. Refute what I bring up, or just admit defeat.

Originally posted by Blibblob
They can be given the same storyline over and over and over again, because they don't have the attention span to remember the last one. Actually, there's quite a big chance that they never played the earlier ones. The mainstream is no judge of quality. If it was, we'd be proclaiming Britney Spears as the greates musician of all time instead of Jimi Hendrix.
I like Britney. But she has won NO awards. Nothing on MTV, or anything I don’t believe. Check up on your history, Blib. Not to mention all the FF’s have way different stories. Want me to post those too?

Lokideviluk

12-13-2004, 08:56 PM

Blib you are actually retarded when it comes to this discussion.

Your entire basis of argument hinges on the fact that you personally dont like the game and because of that, it automatically becomes shit to everyone else. I mean ignore the sales figures, ignore the rave reviews, f*uck it even ignore the sheer amount of time and money that goes into them so that , you, can stay in your little pool of ignorance and continue to play Pong untill you die.

IGN rate games based on their ability to compare it with everything else in that bracket. They have more expereince in that field than you, im sorry but thats true.

I didnt like Black and White, but at least i can fully appriciate the sheer scope and original ideas that went into it, that made it such a fun and diverse game for those whom enjoyed it.

I outright hate the sims, but i wouldnt say "Its a shit game blah blah blah, They cant make games" because its great at what it is, its probably the very best at what it is and thus why the Final Fantasy stories are sooo good,

They are there to tell a story and you can be as ignorant of it all you like, but they tell the stories well.

Blibblob

12-14-2004, 05:56 PM

Did you not even pay attention to anything I said, Blib? In most RPG’s you have a world map, and places you travel/explore to. That’s a major point in the RPG world, exploration. Each world map in every Final Fantasy is different and deals with different time periods and ideas. One was futuristic, one was medieval, one dealt with water and one dealt with more magical/present settings. They are different, you just refuse to admit it. That really isn’t my problem.
Good job redefining what you were talking about. Slide any more away from the debate at hand and you'll be in Mexico. I don't necessarily see where you have enough RPG gameplaying experience to generalize them. A few games with no world map: Seiken Dentsu, Elder Scrolls games, Zelda, Deus Ex, Dungeon Siege, any MMORPG, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Diablo I and II, and more that I can't remember off the top of my head. Those games have vastly differing cultures, styles of play, interesting and unique places to visit, etc. I'll zone in on Zelda in particular. There are 12 Zelda games. What makes Zelda so much better than FF? A) They don't try and hide the games as different ones, B) The stories are so much more interesting, and funny, C) Oh man, Link is just so damn awesome. Style of combat through them? About the same(more imersive than FF though, I mean, menus? Ugh that gets boring. Slashing at enemies? Nope.) The world? It's basically the same. Cultures are about the same, many characters are the same, the games just really have a new story. Why is it so much better? They don't HIDE it, FF pisses me off so much because they just give things new names and different looks. Everything is the same, nothing really changes. They try to resell the same product as something different, when it's really not. Now if all of the games took place in the same place, then I wouldn't care about the fact that they're all basically the same. But changing words around in a story and reselling it? That's just cheap.

All very different. Deal with it. You’re wrong.
I have one thing to say: Bishonen.
If you knew Anime, you'd know what I meant by that.

Luckily you offered nothing of substance. Refute what I bring up, or just admit defeat.
Oh, sorry. I overassumed your comprehension ability. Now, in simple terms:
A "new" menu option is STUPID and is NOT a big or important change. Summon, Materia, same bloody thing.

I like Britney. But she has won NO awards. Nothing on MTV, or anything I don’t believe. Check up on your history, Blib. Not to mention all the FF’s have way different stories. Want me to post those too?
You can post your change of names. But I don't care. Interesting story? First you follow the old guy, fight the boss, get sent back in time, fight him, go forward in time, kill him, go to the present, kill him, go back in time, kill him. That game is so damn long. Anyways, a better one would be playing a half human, half monster with a heart who turns into a vampire at night and has awesome stats then(he's only one out of 6 that you can start with, they all have a different starting story that's rather cool, monster dudes is the coolest though, poor doggy...). He is such an awesome character. Rescue the spirits who give you cool stuff and are funny. Legends of Mana was weird though...

IGN rate games based on their ability to compare it with everything else in that bracket. They have more expereince in that field than you, im sorry but thats true.
IGN rates based off of sellability. I also wouldn't claim they have more experience than me. You have no idea how many games I've played.

I didnt like Black and White, but at least i can fully appriciate the sheer scope and original ideas that went into it, that made it such a fun and diverse game for those whom enjoyed it.
Original ideas don't mean shit if they can't be adapted right. Anybody can come up with a new idea, figure out how to put the rest of it together takes a genius. With the modern structure of the gaming industry, that genius is shot down. Game writing has been taken away from the Artists and given to the Engineers.

I outright hate the sims, but i wouldnt say "Its a shit game blah blah blah, They cant make games" because its great at what it is, its probably the very best at what it is and thus why the Final Fantasy stories are sooo good,
The Sims is the ONLY one of it's kind. The Sims in general is horrible. There is so much missing from that game it's not even funny. You can't measure how good a game is if it's the only one of it's kind. I've played the Sims, waited eagerly for Sims 2, and I was horribly annoyed. EA sucks in general, after they bought Westwood, the C&C games went to hell, after they bought Maxis, they've been unable to create an interesting game. FF is not the only game in it's genre, and it is certainly not the best. The VERY early ones may rank in the top RPGs of all time because of the originality and intrigue of the stories, but they got OLD fast.

They are there to tell a story and you can be as ignorant of it all you like, but they tell the stories well.
Games are the new era of storytelling, however, as with the old era of storytelling, the stories and genres and structure changed. Goosebumps still sucks. Steven King still sucks. They sell, but in quality and ingenuity they suck. Edgar Allen Poe never sold, neither did CS Lewis or Tolkein. Hell, Frank Herbert still doesn't sell. Neither did Issiac Assimov, or Authur C. Clark. Nor Douglas Adams nor any author we would consider a genius. They didn't sell, because they didn't follow the mainstream. Now they are regarded as geniuses. And I know full well that in the future FF will be shoved under the carpet to be forgotten evermore.

Overdose

12-14-2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob [B]A) They don't try and hide the games as different ones, B) The stories are so much more interesting, and funny.
Sorry, the Final Fantasy Games are not one game. They all have different characters and storylines. You are spewing lies and false accusations. You know nothing of the games, if you think they all follow the same storyline Blib.

To you the stories are much more interesting. Not to the majority of gamers/rpg’ers I talk to. So honestly, you can say this all you want, but Final Fantasy VII and the other games have had some of the largest sales ever.

Originally posted by Blibblob Style of combat through them? About the same(more imersive than FF though, I mean, menus? Ugh that gets boring.
It gets boring to you. Many RPG’s have that same style of combat, yet you just refuse to admit it. But you know what? Do you know why they call it Final Fantasy? Because they do share a lot of the same traits Just not the ones that make each game unique.

Not to mention you totally avoided the fact that I showed you how each game did their menu/magic/attack systems differently. Matiera? Draw? Each had their own way. You just choose to ignore that point.

Originally posted by Blibblob The world? It's basically the same. Cultures are about the same, many characters are the same, the games just really have a new story.
No. Not the same. One world is futuristic. One world deals with modern lands. One deals with medieval lands. And one deals with a combination of future and modern. All different, you just choose to ignore that point as well and choose to repeat the same old lies.

Originally posted by Blibblob But changing words around in a story and reselling it? That's just cheap.
Final Fantasy X
Spira was home to highly developed civilizations until 1000 years ago, when Sin first appeared. Sin is a tresspasser, a scourge upon the land. It falls only to rise again, bringing chaos and destruction to Spira's technological advances.

A group of travellers from different tribes and walks of life will set aside their own beliefs to save their crying world. Together they will guard a young Summoner determined to defeat Sin at all costs.

The party journeys to the very ends of the world, visiting temples and bonding with Aeons. As the Summoner gains new strengths, she prepares to recieve her 'Last Summoning', the only power that can defeat Sin and save the world.

Final Fantasy IX
Dark times have spread over the world of Gaia. Four separate governing nations, some blinded by their short-sighted greed, some persevering in the name of justice, are battling on and off in a deadly game for power. One kingdom, that of Lindblum, headed by the honorable and trustworthy Regent Cid, finally decides to take a stand against the unspeakable massacres by the troops of Alexandria.

Enlisting the aid of mere bandits to kidnap Princess Garnet of the Alexandria Empire, for information and interrogation, Garnet and her bodyguard actually join Cid's cause, knowing full well the outlandish recklessness of the governing Queen, who counterattacks with an onslaught of warriors. Thus begins a crossfire that would engulf the world in something far worse than political standoffs.

Out of the band of thieves, one boy along with his entourage must battle his way through several awe-inspiring challenges to restore order and peace.

Final Fantasy VIII
In a time of both sophisticated technology and powerful magic, an evil sorceress corrupts the world's largest military power through manipulation and deception, enslaving mankind to do her bidding. Her goal is not something as simple as world domination; but to completely conquer all of space and time.

To counter the turn of events, various leaders head combat training schools, known as Gardens, that turn out elite fighting forces. Known as SeeDs, they defend, serve, and protect humankind from the sorceress. The sole purpose of these academies is to vanquish the sorceress and save humanity as we know it, although they take many other assignments for the right price.

A small, loose-knit group of SeeD graduates find themselves wrapped in a much bigger endeavor than simple military combat. Now, a gunblade specialist, together with a diverse group of young heroes, must set aside his fears, face the emotions he's run from, and become the leader that he never wanted to be.

Final Fantasy VII

Game Synopsis

A giant energy manufacturing company known as Shinra Inc. is harvesting the sheer life energy of the Planet as a simple fossil fuel. Processed and made into products known as Mako and Materia, these materials can work miracles, granting the wisdom of the Ancients to the user. However, this substance, like all other fuels, is finite in supply, and the Planet's lifeforce is being malevolently drained by the constant explotation of Mako by Shinra. Though aware of the harmful effects, they function without remorse.

However, the real battle lies not with a corporation, but a force much more competent from the distant past. A long-thought dead warrior bent on becoming more and more powerful, coupled with the Planet's drained energy, threatens the very existence of everything sacred.

Now a small rebel group eminating from the slums must quell the various dangers toward the innocent, and one mercenary for hire must look amidst the lies and deception and find the man he is within.

Very different stories…that all are unique and come into there own. They are all different in so many ways. Characters all have different pasts, stories are different, game-system different everything very much different.

Travh20

12-14-2004, 09:39 PM

ya'll need to chill and just go out and buy Ghost Recon 2 for X box

BorgHunter

12-14-2004, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Travh20
ya'll need to chill and just go out and buy Ghost Recon 2 for X box
We'd need to buy an X-Box first...

Travh20

12-14-2004, 09:44 PM

every gamer should have a PC and and X box

BorgHunter

12-14-2004, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by Travh20
every gamer should have a PC and and X box
The X-Box is just a mini, specialized PC, so why bother with having two? I get by with just my computer just fine...

Travh20

12-14-2004, 10:12 PM

Overdose

12-14-2004, 11:59 PM

hell no TRAV! ;)

Blibblob

12-15-2004, 02:13 PM

To you the stories are much more interesting. Not to the majority of gamers/rpg’ers I talk to. So honestly, you can say this all you want, but Final Fantasy VII and the other games have had some of the largest sales ever.
Back to sales? Ugh, I thought we went over that sales don't matter, since you hipsters don't count when it boils down to quality and creativity.

It gets boring to you. Many RPG’s have that same style of combat, yet you just refuse to admit it. But you know what? Do you know why they call it Final Fantasy?
MANY RPGs? You REALLY don't play many RPGs. Get a few more RPGs under your belt and I'll take your generalization comments into account.

Not to mention you totally avoided the fact that I showed you how each game did their menu/magic/attack systems differently. Matiera? Draw? Each had their own way. You just choose to ignore that point.
They're the same with different names! If I have to summon that one hot blue chick again, I'll scream! ... in ecstasy. Materia, Summon, Draw? Same bloody thing. You either cast a spell, or call up some... thing.

No. Not the same. One world is futuristic. One world deals with modern lands. One deals with medieval lands. And one deals with a combination of future and modern. All different, you just choose to ignore that point as well and choose to repeat the same old lies.
They ALL have a clash of technology and medievally. It's a Fantasy RPG. They almost ALL do that. It's quite annoying. FF is not original in that sense. The worlds are the same people with different names, and on continents with different names.

Stories?
Final Fantasy X --> Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy IX --> Genre cliche
Final Fantasy VIII --> Final Fantasy III/VI
Final Fantasy VII --> Genre cliche

By Genre cliche, I mean "save the princess", "kill the big evil guy", "save the world", etc. Standard fantasy styled plotlines.

Now. Again I will reiterate. You have nothing upon which to base your assertions. You have not played enough RPGs, you have not played on enough systems, you have not seen what originality can do. Now, go back to playing the "best game of it's genre", since it's the only one you have played.

OH! And I just remembered something I liked from Final Fantasy. The MUSIC. Some of the best musical scores ever composed right there.

Blibblob

12-15-2004, 02:15 PM

oh borg, and here I thought you were so open minded. Xbox live is awsome and worth the price of the xbox alone. plus, I can play it on my big wide screen HDTV and my surround sound speakers.
No good games. Very shitty parts. Worst controller EVER. I say you just plug your computer into your TV and play Half-Life 2. You don't have to pay extra for that internet connection. XBox live is a waste of your money. What games do you play on it anyways?

BorgHunter

12-15-2004, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
Back to sales? Ugh, I thought we went over that sales don't matter, since you hipsters don't count when it boils down to quality and creativity.
I'm NOT taking sides in this argument, because I have never played any Final Fantasy game, but it is true that sales and popularity do not equate to quality. I mean, look at Internet Explorer, for Bob's sake!!!

Travh20

12-16-2004, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Blibblob
oh borg, and here I thought you were so open minded. Xbox live is awsome and worth the price of the xbox alone. plus, I can play it on my big wide screen HDTV and my surround sound speakers.
No good games. Very shitty parts. Worst controller EVER. I say you just plug your computer into your TV and play Half-Life 2. You don't have to pay extra for that internet connection. XBox live is a waste of your money. What games do you play on it anyways?

XBOX Live is 50 bucks a year blibblob. Its not a waste of money considering I spend almost that much for my internet connection per month.

the xbox , and consoles in general, are the best systems to play sports games on, especially with XBOX Live. There is never a shortage of opponents. Other then that, racing games are fun on live too. The funnest games to play on Live are Mechassault, and the upcoming Mechassualt 2, and the best of the best is Ghost Recon 2. these are the games I like.

For all my strategy games and first person shooters I go back to the PC though.

Overdose

12-16-2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
Back to sales? Ugh, I thought we went over that sales don't matter, since you hipsters don't count when it boils down to quality and creativity.
Yes, and typically the games that have quality and creativity are the ones who tend to sell the most.

Originally posted by Blibblob
MANY RPGs? You REALLY don't play many RPGs. Get a few more RPGs under your belt and I'll take your generalization comments into account.
Sorry, Blib, but actually you are the one at fault here. You haven't even beaten FFVII and I don't think you've beaten any of the other Final Fantasy's that we are debating. So, how do you know they are horrible games if you haven't even beaten them? I'll take your comments into concern when you actually beat the games you are criticizing.

Originally posted by Blibblob
They're the same with different names! If I have to summon that one hot blue chick again, I'll scream! ... in ecstasy. Materia, Summon, Draw? Same bloody thing. You either cast a spell, or call up some... thing.
I've already told you this before. The games are all connected in small ways. Although, there is different magic and summons in every game. It's similar, but not the exact same. Sorry. Plus, does having some of the same things make it all of a sudden a horrible game?

Originally posted by Blibblob
They ALL have a clash of technology and medievally. It's a Fantasy RPG. They almost ALL do that. It's quite annoying. FF is not original in that sense. The worlds are the same people with different names, and on continents with different names.
Wrong. They don't clash with medievally. Prove it. I've played all of them, and in FFVII and FFVIII and FFX they hardly, if never touch on medieval traits.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Final Fantasy X --> Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy IX --> Genre cliche
Final Fantasy VIII --> Final Fantasy III/VI
Final Fantasy VII --> Genre cliche
Wrong. they are all unique in their own way.

Originally posted by Blibblob
By Genre cliche, I mean "save the princess", "kill the big evil guy", "save the world", etc. Standard fantasy styled plotlines.
Blib you are amazing. Firstly, most stories/movies/games all have the “good guys” and the “bad guys” and then they solve or figure out a way to fix the issues that arise. Except each FF has their own way of making it unique to that specific game. I posted the stories, and they are all different. Having a different plot, and reason to 'save the world' Making them all unique. You just refuse to actually read the stories, or for that matter, play the stories.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Now. Again I will reiterate. You have nothing upon which to base your assertions. You have not played enough RPGs, you have not played on enough systems, you have not seen what originality can do. Now, go back to playing the "best game of it's genre", since it's the only one you have played.

And you haven't beaten the more recent FF's you are attacking? Get over yourself.

Blibblob

12-16-2004, 06:12 PM

Yes, and typically the games that have quality and creativity are the ones who tend to sell the most.
No. Most certainly not. Commander Keen probably sold less than a thousand. Tales of Phantasia never sold here at all, and sales were pitiful in Japan. Terrinigma hardly sold in Europe. Half-Life sold AFTER the fact. Seiken Dentsu hardly sold. Diablo I sold after the fact. Imperialism never sold. Grim Fandago. Oddworld: Munch's Odfysee. Fallout 1 and 2. Earthbound.

Games that sold like mad, but SUCK:
DOOM III. Holy shit that game sucked. "Oh, but it has wonderful graphics!" That's because YOU CAN'T SEE ANYTHING!
...
Anyways, Sims 2. Halo. Neverwinter Nights. Zelda: Wind Waker. GTA. Kingdom Hearts. EA Sports in general... HELL, EA in general. And of course. Final Fantasy.

Sorry, Blib, but actually you are the one at fault here. You haven't even beaten FFVII and I don't think you've beaten any of the other Final Fantasy's that we are debating. So, how do you know they are horrible games if you haven't even beaten them? I'll take your comments into concern when you actually beat the games you are criticizing.
I have to beat the games? What the fuck are you talking about? I got so damn bored in those games. The farthest I've ever gotten in a FF was when I was playing VI. Second farthest was VII. I don't have to beat a game to know it sucked? Hell, that's why I didn't beat it. Because I was BORED. You need to play some games before making a judgement. I tried the games, I got bored, I never beat them, and I never will, I don't care that much about them. You should at least attempt to play some of the games I have mentioned multiple times. I've played many many games, I haven't beaten all of them, some for different reasons than others, but at least I've played them.

I've already told you this before. The games are all connected in small ways. Although, there is different magic and summons in every game. It's similar, but not the exact same. Sorry. Plus, does having some of the same things make it all of a sudden a horrible game?
Same good things = good.
Same things with different names to make them seem different = bad.

Wrong. They don't clash with medievally. Prove it. I've played all of them, and in FFVII and FFVIII and FFX they hardly, if never touch on medieval traits.
The main character is a SWORDSMAN. You go into many CASTLES and many DUNGEONS. There are little VILLAGES. No medieval traits, HA. They all have about the same amount of medieval traits, minus the first two. Which is all medieval, no technology. You've played them all? Why haven't you spoken of VI? Or I, or II, or III, or IV, or V? Only the new ones? Since we all know that those are the best...

Wrong. they are all unique in their own way.
Wrong? Tell me how I'm wrong. Those stories stem from others. Change some names around, tada, new game!

Blib you are amazing. Firstly, most stories/movies/games all have the “good guys” and the “bad guys” and then they solve or figure out a way to fix the issues that arise. Except each FF has their own way of making it unique to that specific game. I posted the stories, and they are all different. Having a different plot, and reason to 'save the world' Making them all unique. You just refuse to actually read the stories, or for that matter, play the stories.
And again! You don't play any unique games. Give me the most unique game you can think of.

And you haven't beaten the more recent FF's you are attacking? Get over yourself.
Again, at least I've played them. Beating it doesn't matter. I can't beat them. I don't have the willpower to torture myself for hours on end. At least I've played some games. Now it's your turn.

Oh, more discrediting of big company game critics by Penny Arcade! (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-09-19&res=l).
Oh, if you read Penny Arcade at all, then I think you'd know full well how the gamer geeks' brains work. And how sales, and critics, don't count... at all... ever.

Overdose

12-16-2004, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
No. Most certainly not. Commander Keen probably sold less than a thousand. Tales of Phantasia never sold here at all, and sales were pitiful in Japan. Terrinigma hardly sold in Europe. Half-Life sold AFTER the fact. Seiken Dentsu hardly sold. Diablo I sold after the fact. Imperialism never sold. Grim Fandago. Oddworld: Munch's Odfysee. Fallout 1 and 2. Earthbound.
Do you not understand what the world typically means? That’s what I said. Typically the better games sell more. It just so happens you find the games that don’t sell as well, to be better. Although, I’m sure there are others who have played those games, who hated them. It’s all a matter of opinion and what you like and don’t like. More people tend to like the FF’s.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Anyways, Sims 2. Halo. Neverwinter Nights. Zelda: Wind Waker. GTA. Kingdom Hearts. EA Sports in general... HELL, EA in general. And of course. Final Fantasy.
It’s your opinion those games suck. But to the vast majority of gamers, FF’s are very good games.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I have to beat the games? What the fuck are you talking about? I got so damn bored in those games. The farthest I've ever gotten in a FF was when I was playing VI. Second farthest was VII. I don't have to beat a game to know it sucked? Hell, that's why I didn't beat it. Because I was BORED.
How do you know it didn’t get better? Can you foresee the future? Please, enlighten me. As for it being “boring” to you….well that’s just depressing. You are clearly in the minority.

Originally posted by Blibblob
You need to play some games before making a judgement.
You need to finish these games before making judgments.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I tried the games, I got bored, I never beat them, and I never will, I don't care that much about them.
Okay, then until you beat them, keep your mouth shut. You don’t know if they will get better, or if they might become a better game.

Originally posted by Blibblob
You should at least attempt to play some of the games I have mentioned multiple times. I've played many many games, I haven't beaten all of them, some for different reasons than others, but at least I've played them.
You’re funny Blib. My cousin Sadie (who was on here awhile ago) has played many, many RPG’s. For years she’s played them…and her favorite is Final Fantasy VII. I guess that puts a dagger in your argument.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Same good things = good.
Same things with different names to make them seem different = bad.
Sorry, but most of the things that are the same in all the FF’s are called the exact same…just like they all begin with Final Fantasy. Why do you think they do that? Because they are very similar in many ways, in terms of how the games are played. But they are different in story, character, menu, and graphics.

Originally posted by Blibblob
The main character is a SWORDSMAN.
A sword really does not have to deal with medieval traits. In FFVIII it was a combination of a gun and a sword…

Originally posted by Blibblob
You go into many CASTLES and many DUNGEONS.
I don’t recall a Castle in FFVII…and Dungeons? Examples? From which of the FF's? All of them? What were they called exactly?

Originally posted by Blibblob
Wrong? Tell me how I'm wrong. Those stories stem from others. Change some names around, tada, new game!
I already posted the stories. All different. Scroll back a few pages. They don’t stem from each other. Re-read.

Blibblob

12-16-2004, 06:57 PM

Do you not understand what the world typically means? That’s what I said. Typically the better games sell more. It just so happens you find the games that don’t sell as well, to be better. Although, I’m sure there are others who have played those games, who hated them. It’s all a matter of opinion and what you like and don’t like. More people tend to like the FF’s.
How can you say typically? You don't play games!

It’s your opinion those games suck. But to the vast majority of gamers, FF’s are very good games.
You will find two things in the gamer world:
Gamers and RPGers who hate FF. And newbies who love them. There are exceptions, but I don't see many. So, n00b, what are your qualifications again? Stop using others'.

How do you know it didn’t get better? Can you foresee the future? Please, enlighten me. As for it being “boring” to you….well that’s just depressing. You are clearly in the minority.
If a game can't catch a person's attention in the first half. The second half isn't worth playing, no matter one. You PLAY some fucking games, I wont beat them, but that does NOT matter. Explain to me why it matters that I MUST beat these games I can't stand?

You’re funny Blib. My cousin Sadie (who was on here awhile ago) has played many, many RPG’s. For years she’s played them…and her favorite is Final Fantasy VII. I guess that puts a dagger in your argument.
A) Stop using others to attempt to prove your points, I have PERSONAL experience in this area.
B) Why not have her come and debate this instead of you, who doesn't play RPGs, doing a piss poor job with crappy explainations and pathetic generalizations about games you've never heard of before

Sorry, but most of the things that are the same in all the FF’s are called the exact same…just like they all begin with Final Fantasy. Why do you think they do that? Because they are very similar in many ways, in terms of how the games are played. But they are different in story, character, menu, and graphics.
LOL. So, the names must be the same for them to be the same? You don't understand the developer's brain do you? They want to make money. They do crappy jobs to make it look pretty, reuse stories that they know newbies haven't played before, change names around because newbies haven't seen those either, and try to sell it again. Trying to say they don't is about the same thing as trying to say that EA actually pays their employees. The games don't play differently. The style does not change. You were just amazed because you haven't seen it before. FFVII was not the first one I've played, I saw the crap before. I will say that the first RPG I ever played was Zelda: A Link to the Past back when I was... oh 7 or something. The first "real" RPG I played was FFVI. Then FFI, then in order. FFVIII before VII because it wasn't done downloading.

A sword really does not have to deal with medieval traits. In FFVIII it was a combination of a gun and a sword…
You're really scrapping at this trying to find every specific shred about your game to say is good.

I don’t recall a Castle in FFVII…and Dungeons? Examples? From which of the FF's? All of them? What were they called exactly?
What was that big thing that you defended in that weird mini game? Dungeon? How can you MISS a dungeon? Examples... *Tries to remember*, the one at the wall village that Red was from... uh, I distinctly remember some other underground dungeony areas, but can't recall, haven't played the game in years.

I already posted the stories. All different. Scroll back a few pages. They don’t stem from each other. Re-read.
And I told you where the stories came from. Changing names doesn't constitute a new story, as I told you before. When I said genre cliche, it's in other games, that I currently can't remember. That happens when you've played so many, you start forgetting names.

Overdose

12-16-2004, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
How can you say typically? You don't play games!
What do you mean, how can I say typically? How do you know I don’t play games? Also, I know many people who do play tons of games. They all agree that FFVII is the best game. Also, if it wasn’t a good game, it wouldn’t have such good sales. Period.

Originally posted by Blibblob
You will find two things in the gamer world:
Gamers and RPGers who hate FF. And newbies who love them. There are exceptions, but I don't see many. So, n00b, what are your qualifications again? Stop using others'.
I can use others all I want. What’s to stop me? You can’t tell me what I can and cannot use. Your main argument is that I don’t have qualifications. Yet, I know people who have tons of qualifications who all agree Final Fantasy VII and the others are some of the best games.

Why is it they got such great reviews from about every Gaming Magazine? Why is it their sales were so extremely high? Why is it that people like me, who hardly play games, play the Final Fantasy’s? Because they are some of the best games around.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Explain to me why it matters that I MUST beat these games I can't stand?
How do you know if the game does not get better, if you haven't beaten it Blib?
Originally posted by Blibblob

A) Stop using others to attempt to prove your points, I have PERSONAL experience in this area.
1. You can’t tell me to stop using others to prove my points, because I’ll do whatever I want and you can’t tell me otherwise. You have personal experience? Really? You haven’t beaten the games you are attacking, so you really don’t know fully, if they are a bad game all the way through. And you know who has personal experience? All of the people at PSM, and others who all gave these games great reviews.

Originally posted by Blibblob
B) Why not have her come and debate this instead of you, who doesn't play RPGs, doing a piss poor job with crappy explainations and pathetic generalizations about games you've never heard of before
Sorry, I don’t have crappy explanations. You are the one who is trying to compare games, those of which you haven’t even beaten, to other games. Well, if those games were so good, they would have sold well and gotten amazing reviews. Please, give me a break.

Originally posted by Blibblob
LOL. So, the names must be the same for them to be the same? You don't understand the developer's brain do you? They want to make money. They do crappy jobs to make it look pretty, reuse stories that they know newbies haven't played before, change names around because newbies haven't seen those either, and try to sell it again.
Are you really that dense? I may be a “newbie” to the “gaming world” but I’m not a newbie to the FF’s (FFVII-FFX) I’ve played all of those games, and I know for a fact that they are all different. Sadly, you don’t know they are all the same, because you haven’t hardly played those games. Not my problem.

Originally posted by Blibblob
What was that big thing that you defended in that weird mini game? Dungeon? How can you MISS a dungeon? Examples... *Tries to remember*, the one at the wall village that Red was from... uh, I distinctly remember some other underground dungeony areas, but can't recall, haven't played the game in years.
lol, That mine town was not a dungeon. It was a town that descended underground. And do you know what exploration means? It means going to new areas that are all different. Every town in every Final Fantasy is different. They all have different settings, history, and connections to the games. They all look and feel different. They all have a different purpose in each game, and it’s very clear, by actually playing all of them, that Squaresoft is genius when it comes to making each and every town look and feel different.

But what I really want you to do, is please, please, please, tell me a Dungeon, Town or Area that is exactly or almost exactly the same…in ever game.

Originally posted by Blibblob
And I told you where the stories came from. Changing names doesn't constitute a new story, as I told you before. When I said genre cliche, it's in other games, that I currently can't remember. That happens when you've played so many, you start forgetting names.
Wrong Squaresoft does not just “change names” Sorry buddy, but you’re totally 100% incorrect on this.

Final Fantasy X
Spira was home to highly developed civilizations until 1000 years ago, when Sin first appeared. Sin is a tresspasser, a scourge upon the land. It falls only to rise again, bringing chaos and destruction to Spira's technological advances.

A group of travellers from different tribes and walks of life will set aside their own beliefs to save their crying world. Together they will guard a young Summoner determined to defeat Sin at all costs.

The party journeys to the very ends of the world, visiting temples and bonding with Aeons. As the Summoner gains new strengths, she prepares to recieve her 'Last Summoning', the only power that can defeat Sin and save the world.

Final Fantasy IX
Dark times have spread over the world of Gaia. Four separate governing nations, some blinded by their short-sighted greed, some persevering in the name of justice, are battling on and off in a deadly game for power. One kingdom, that of Lindblum, headed by the honorable and trustworthy Regent Cid, finally decides to take a stand against the unspeakable massacres by the troops of Alexandria.

Enlisting the aid of mere bandits to kidnap Princess Garnet of the Alexandria Empire, for information and interrogation, Garnet and her bodyguard actually join Cid's cause, knowing full well the outlandish recklessness of the governing Queen, who counterattacks with an onslaught of warriors. Thus begins a crossfire that would engulf the world in something far worse than political standoffs.

Out of the band of thieves, one boy along with his entourage must battle his way through several awe-inspiring challenges to restore order and peace.

Final Fantasy VIII
In a time of both sophisticated technology and powerful magic, an evil sorceress corrupts the world's largest military power through manipulation and deception, enslaving mankind to do her bidding. Her goal is not something as simple as world domination; but to completely conquer all of space and time.

To counter the turn of events, various leaders head combat training schools, known as Gardens, that turn out elite fighting forces. Known as SeeDs, they defend, serve, and protect humankind from the sorceress. The sole purpose of these academies is to vanquish the sorceress and save humanity as we know it, although they take many other assignments for the right price.

A small, loose-knit group of SeeD graduates find themselves wrapped in a much bigger endeavor than simple military combat. Now, a gunblade specialist, together with a diverse group of young heroes, must set aside his fears, face the emotions he's run from, and become the leader that he never wanted to be.

Final Fantasy VII

Game Synopsis

A giant energy manufacturing company known as Shinra Inc. is harvesting the sheer life energy of the Planet as a simple fossil fuel. Processed and made into products known as Mako and Materia, these materials can work miracles, granting the wisdom of the Ancients to the user. However, this substance, like all other fuels, is finite in supply, and the Planet's lifeforce is being malevolently drained by the constant explotation of Mako by Shinra. Though aware of the harmful effects, they function without remorse.

However, the real battle lies not with a corporation, but a force much more competent from the distant past. A long-thought dead warrior bent on becoming more and more powerful, coupled with the Planet's drained energy, threatens the very existence of everything sacred.

Now a small rebel group eminating from the slums must quell the various dangers toward the innocent, and one mercenary for hire must look amidst the lies and deception and find the man he is within.

ALL DIFFERENT STORIES TELL ME HOW THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME?

Blibblob

12-16-2004, 09:11 PM

What do you mean, how can I say typically? How do you know I don’t play games? Also, I know many people who do play tons of games. They all agree that FFVII is the best game. Also, if it wasn’t a good game, it wouldn’t have such good sales. Period.
Your knowledge tells me you don't play many games. Your overbearing generalizations based off of FF, NO RPGs are NOT like those. Start reading Penny Arcade(perfect start for a n00b) and stop being an ignorant dumbfuck! Gamespy, IGN, whatever the hell else there is, oh Spike, or G4TechTV, have NO credibility. If you knew ANYTHING about gamer culture you would know at least THAT. You should also know at least some BASIC developer tactics.

I can use others all I want. What’s to stop me? You can’t tell me what I can and cannot use. Your main argument is that I don’t have qualifications. Yet, I know people who have tons of qualifications who all agree Final Fantasy VII and the others are some of the best games.
Sorry, but cut the hearsay. Until I hear PERSONALLY how well knowledgable these people are about games, about other RPGs, and gamer culture in general, I don't give half a shit what the friend of a friends girlfriend's mother's uncle's grandson's friend thinks! Because any simpleminded gamer with a store of games behind them will tell you that, no FFVII is not the best FF, and FF is not the best RPG around.

Why is it they got such great reviews from about every Gaming Magazine? Why is it their sales were so extremely high? Why is it that people like me, who hardly play games, play the Final Fantasy’s? Because they are some of the best games around.
Because they rate EVERY overrated game HIGH. If they overrate a game, it will sell, REGARDLESS of how good it is. That's the kind of influence they apparently have in the brains of the mainstream sheep.

1. You can’t tell me to stop using others to prove my points, because I’ll do whatever I want and you can’t tell me otherwise. You have personal experience? Really? You haven’t beaten the games you are attacking, so you really don’t know fully, if they are a bad game all the way through. And you know who has personal experience? All of the people at PSM, and others who all gave these games great reviews.
Still haven't told me why I MUST beat the game to know how it plays. I never beat C&C Red Alert(holy fuck that game is long, and a pain in the ass). I don't care if somehow, amazingly through a godsent miracle, the game becomes superb at the END, because... well, it's the END, I, nor anybody else I have ever known, will play a shitty ass game all the way through to watch this stupid ending. Bored out of my mind with flies buzzing around my head because my brain cells rotted.

Are you really that dense? I may be a “newbie” to the “gaming world” but I’m not a newbie to the FF’s (FFVII-FFX) I’ve played all of those games, and I know for a fact that they are all different. Sadly, you don’t know they are all the same, because you haven’t hardly played those games. Not my problem.
Final Fantasies VII through X? OH MY GOD!! That's FOUR. There are SIX BEFORE THAT. You don't know those games, you haven't played them, and it seems mostly that you've never heard of them. I have played all of them except for the ones on the PS2(no damn emulator for it), not all the way through, but again, I don't see how that matters. Now, until you have play the SIX that the last FOUR steal from, SHUT UP.

But what I really want you to do, is please, please, please, tell me a Dungeon, Town or Area that is exactly or almost exactly the same…in ever game.
You expect me to remember the games? I played them years ago. I played FFVII about two years ago, and the older ones more than half a decade ago. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone specifics that I can name for you. I remember there being a mine town at the very begining of VI that looked quite similar to the one in VII. The forests look basically the same. Also, the underground of the mine(the dungeon, don't know what a dungeon is do you?(RPG sense)), is basically identical to the one in VI. Their mountain ranges are quite boring looking on the map and resemble each other very closely.

ALL DIFFERENT STORIES TELL ME HOW THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME?
Did you read them? What makes them so special? Cliche galore. I also pinpointed a few specific games which they ripped off of. Remember, X to VII, and VIII to VI(the one you never played). I'm sorry my memories of the earlier games are even fuzzier, but they're a hell of a lot clearer than your lack of playing them.
The shear similarity is boring, especially if you've played the ones they're ripped off of... which you haven't. I've seen the same storyline gists countless times before, you haven't, because you haven't played those games, and seeing it again isn't interesting or creative.

Overdose

12-16-2004, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
Your knowledge tells me you don't play many games. Your overbearing generalizations based off of FF, NO RPGs are NOT like those.
Firstly, RPG’s in general have deep story-lines and plots. They all usually have main characters, vast lands to experience, the “bad guys” and a general system to follow. Why would they place all of the FF’s in the RPG category?

Originally posted by Blibblob
Start reading Penny Arcade(perfect start for a n00b) and stop being an ignorant dumbfuck!
When I had a year subscription to PSM (Play Station Magazine) people would just post side comments in the back of their magazines every addition they came out with. Then at the end it would say “Favorite Games” The vast majority of them had Final Fantasy VII or another FF written as their favorite game(s) I suggest you start to open your eyes and look at magazines/people who are truly gamers.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Because they rate EVERY overrated game HIGH. If they overrate a game, it will sell, REGARDLESS of how good it is. That's the kind of influence they apparently have in the brains of the mainstream sheep.
Apparently you don’t know much about FFVII’s history. Final Fantasy VII was the first Final Fantasy to be on the Play Station. The first FF to gain attention/good ratings/and sales was Final Fantasy VII. It was the first Final Fantasy to truly gain world-wide fame. So the FF history, had nothing to do with how they rated Final Fantasy VII.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Still haven't told me why I MUST beat the game to know how it plays.
How do you know if they don’t get better towards the end, Blib?

Originally posted by Blibblob
Final Fantasies VII through X? OH MY GOD!! That's FOUR. There are SIX BEFORE THAT.
And…? You haven’t even played those four, and I haven’t played the previous ones. So how do you know they are exactly the same…or even similar?

Originally posted by Blibblob
You expect me to remember the games? I played them years ago. I played FFVII about two years ago, and the older ones more than half a decade ago. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone specifics that I can name for you.
Don’t debate until you can come up with specifics.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I remember there being a mine town at the very begining of VI that looked quite similar to the one in VII.
Okay, get a picture online and prove it.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Did you read them? What makes them so special? Cliche galore.
Wrong. No cliché’s. All unique. You didn’t read them.

Blibblob

12-16-2004, 10:48 PM

Firstly, RPG’s in general have deep story-lines and plots. They all usually have main characters, vast lands to experience, the “bad guys” and a general system to follow. Why would they place all of the FF’s in the RPG category?
*Slaps self in face* What the hell are you rambling on about? I know what RPGs are. FF aren't the only RPGs, nor were they the first. I also still want to know how you can say "generally"?

When I had a year subscription to PSM (Play Station Magazine) people would just post side comments in the back of their magazines every addition they came out with. Then at the end it would say “Favorite Games” The vast majority of them had Final Fantasy VII or another FF written as their favorite game(s) I suggest you start to open your eyes and look at magazines/people who are truly gamers.
Playstation Magazine is a gamers magazine? I don't know of many gamers who buy magazines. We know how to get our information... in the land of the geeks and nerds... the internet. I've seen your PSM, no, not a gamers magazine. If you had something like PC Gamer, that's more credible, or maybe the great gamefaqs.com. THAT is a gamer's website. THAT has some credible polls. Find one there. The character results from the polls though. Link v. Cloud, Link won.
Anyways, Poll results:
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/simpleratings.asp
FFVII, number 96. That was the average for main sites.
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/simpleratings.asp
This one is for voting. FFIII/VI is at 15, VII is at 18. Look Chrono Trigger is at 9. Zelda is 8. And I don't know what the hell Neverwinter Nights 2 is doing on there, it's not even bloody out yet...
Castlevania:SOTN kicks the ass out of FFVII. SOTN was an awesome game, I only finished that one half way also, the mirrored castle was way too hard. Hmm, I might try that game again soon...

Apparently you don’t know much about FFVII’s history. Final Fantasy VII was the first Final Fantasy to be on the Play Station. The first FF to gain attention/good ratings/and sales was Final Fantasy VII. It was the first Final Fantasy to truly gain world-wide fame. So the FF history, had nothing to do with how they rated Final Fantasy VII.
WHAT?! That is a direct affront to the SNES. You are HIGHLY mistaken. The first FF to gain international acclaim was number ONE. FFVII just hit the Playstation at the right time. Learn the rest of your gaming history. The Playstation was a monumental appearance. It was the first system to properly be able to use CDs(Sega CD sucked). Within a short period of time it was catching up to and killing the N64. Square breaking off from Nintendo and going to Sony was insane. After making superb game after superb game on the SNES people were waiting to see what they'd do next. FFVII comes out, it uses top of the line graphics, and since it was being pushed forward by Sony now, it was in the mainstream. Square stopped being just for the hardcore gamers, they made a gaim that appealed to all audiences. It was simple, it was an interesting thing that the majority hadn't seen before since they never played the SNES. With the pretty graphics FFVII was able to push itself to the forefront of the gaming world. Oh, we knew about Square and about FF way way way before you did. FFVII was nothing new, nothing interesting to the hardcore gamers. Then we saw Metal Gear Solid, that is what caught our attention, something new and interesting, at least there was Castlevania to play until that came out.

How do you know if they don’t get better towards the end, Blib?
I had just explained to you why I don't care if it gets better near the end. I don't want to sit through hours of monotonous boring work to see a few minutes of a "good" end.

And…? You haven’t even played those four, and I haven’t played the previous ones. So how do you know they are exactly the same…or even similar?
I've played three out of the four. Which means I've played 9 final fantasies. 5 more than you.

Don’t debate until you can come up with specifics.
You don't have specifics as to how they're not cliches, how they are different. You gave me a storyline gist that I already knew, and which is quite similar to basically everything else that has been done in the RPG market.

Okay, get a picture online and prove it.
I hate you. Do you have any idea how bloody hard it is to find any good screenshots from that game? I'd take my own if I had the time, you'd probably declare them different because of the graphics. But you can never tell until it's been played, and a feeling of deja vu washes over you.
http://www.fantasyanime.com/finalfantasy/ff6/images/ff6shot080.png
That's the dungeon I'm talking about. I can't find any more pictures.
'sal good though, 'cause...
http://www.fantasyanime.com/finalfantasy/ff6/images/ff6shot107.png
KUPO! Oh man, those are probably the best things Square has ever made...

Wrong. No cliché’s. All unique. You didn’t read them.
I read them. You just don't know any other RPGs or the early ones apparently. But I already knew that. You still don't know what you're talking about.

Lokideviluk

12-17-2004, 03:04 AM

Id probably discount gamerankings as for some reasons they seem to have a fair few unreleased games in their rankings. GT4 is 3rd in the PS2 rankings???

Assassin

12-20-2004, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by Blibblob
What do you mean, how can I say typically? How do you know I don’t play games? Also, I know many people who do play tons of games. They all agree that FFVII is the best game. Also, if it wasn’t a good game, it wouldn’t have such good sales. Period.
Your knowledge tells me you don't play many games. Your overbearing generalizations based off of FF, NO RPGs are NOT like those. Start reading Penny Arcade(perfect start for a n00b) and stop being an ignorant dumbfuck! Gamespy, IGN, whatever the hell else there is, oh Spike, or G4TechTV, have NO credibility. If you knew ANYTHING about gamer culture you would know at least THAT. You should also know at least some BASIC developer tactics.

I can use others all I want. What’s to stop me? You can’t tell me what I can and cannot use. Your main argument is that I don’t have qualifications. Yet, I know people who have tons of qualifications who all agree Final Fantasy VII and the others are some of the best games.
Sorry, but cut the hearsay. Until I hear PERSONALLY how well knowledgable these people are about games, about other RPGs, and gamer culture in general, I don't give half a shit what the friend of a friends girlfriend's mother's uncle's grandson's friend thinks! Because any simpleminded gamer with a store of games behind them will tell you that, no FFVII is not the best FF, and FF is not the best RPG around.

Why is it they got such great reviews from about every Gaming Magazine? Why is it their sales were so extremely high? Why is it that people like me, who hardly play games, play the Final Fantasy’s? Because they are some of the best games around.
Because they rate EVERY overrated game HIGH. If they overrate a game, it will sell, REGARDLESS of how good it is. That's the kind of influence they apparently have in the brains of the mainstream sheep.

1. You can’t tell me to stop using others to prove my points, because I’ll do whatever I want and you can’t tell me otherwise. You have personal experience? Really? You haven’t beaten the games you are attacking, so you really don’t know fully, if they are a bad game all the way through. And you know who has personal experience? All of the people at PSM, and others who all gave these games great reviews.
Still haven't told me why I MUST beat the game to know how it plays. I never beat C&C Red Alert(holy fuck that game is long, and a pain in the ass). I don't care if somehow, amazingly through a godsent miracle, the game becomes superb at the END, because... well, it's the END, I, nor anybody else I have ever known, will play a shitty ass game all the way through to watch this stupid ending. Bored out of my mind with flies buzzing around my head because my brain cells rotted.

Are you really that dense? I may be a “newbie” to the “gaming world” but I’m not a newbie to the FF’s (FFVII-FFX) I’ve played all of those games, and I know for a fact that they are all different. Sadly, you don’t know they are all the same, because you haven’t hardly played those games. Not my problem.
Final Fantasies VII through X? OH MY GOD!! That's FOUR. There are SIX BEFORE THAT. You don't know those games, you haven't played them, and it seems mostly that you've never heard of them. I have played all of them except for the ones on the PS2(no damn emulator for it), not all the way through, but again, I don't see how that matters. Now, until you have play the SIX that the last FOUR steal from, SHUT UP.

But what I really want you to do, is please, please, please, tell me a Dungeon, Town or Area that is exactly or almost exactly the same…in ever game.
You expect me to remember the games? I played them years ago. I played FFVII about two years ago, and the older ones more than half a decade ago. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone specifics that I can name for you. I remember there being a mine town at the very begining of VI that looked quite similar to the one in VII. The forests look basically the same. Also, the underground of the mine(the dungeon, don't know what a dungeon is do you?(RPG sense)), is basically identical to the one in VI. Their mountain ranges are quite boring looking on the map and resemble each other very closely.

ALL DIFFERENT STORIES TELL ME HOW THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME?
Did you read them? What makes them so special? Cliche galore. I also pinpointed a few specific games which they ripped off of. Remember, X to VII, and VIII to VI(the one you never played). I'm sorry my memories of the earlier games are even fuzzier, but they're a hell of a lot clearer than your lack of playing them.
The shear similarity is boring, especially if you've played the ones they're ripped off of... which you haven't. I've seen the same storyline gists countless times before, you haven't, because you haven't played those games, and seeing it again isn't interesting or creative.

Why do you always have a mile long answer for everything. And I've probably played more video games,and kept my sanity,than both of you put together.

Assassin

12-20-2004, 01:37 AM

atleast you two are fighting instead of banding together to make two left wing radicals.

Rhymin' Greiman

03-27-2005, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Blibblob
They all suck. They should have stuck with the original idea of a Final Fantasy, as in it was Final. Worst thing Square has ever done... But it's okay, they redeem themselves with Chronotrigger, Tales of Phantasia, and Seiken Dentsu(Secret of Mana). Unfortunately two out of three of those I just mentioned were never released in the US and are for the SNES.

Yeah the Final Fantasy series is an extremely horrible idea. I mean being the most popular household name when it comes to RPGs.... they're so stupid making millions and millions of dollars with each release. Maybe they should just retire Final Fantasy?

Overdose

09-27-2005, 11:10 PM

Bump

Lokideviluk

09-28-2005, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Blibblob
OH MY GOD!! That's FOUR. There are SIX BEFORE THAT. You don't know those games, you haven't played them, and it seems mostly that you've never heard of them. I have played all of them except for the ones on the PS2(no damn emulator for it), not all the way through, but again, I don't see how that matters. Now, until you have play the SIX that the last FOUR steal from, SHUT UP.

Its interesting to note that you were probably born around the time of FF & FF2's release, so obviously as you say used an emulator to play these games a great deal of time later.

What interests me more is that bu the time you were old enough to be able and capable to properlly tackle such rpg's, Chrono Trigger had been released and so I assume you either got that around release or like the other games, picked up a copy on emulation.

The real point i want to make here is that I've you played Chrono Trigger on emulation its very very likely that you played FF7 before it, and yet you say that you dont think its that good of a rpg... average at best. Im wondering what from that review interested you to play another 6 games of a lesser quality both in charater depth/storyline & graphics? You completely disliked the whole FF series because you tell us it repeats itself, well surely as you went backwards you would have noticed these same simularties than infuriate you so? So why play them at all.

I personally doubt that you got anywhere in most of the pre 7 final fantasys. Yes, you downloaded the roms but probably spent maybe an hour or 2 at best on each one.

abortretryfail

09-28-2005, 02:06 PM

I just realized that I _own_ 8. That's funny. I should sell it. I like all of them, but I have no need to play them more than once.

Evakian

09-28-2005, 03:55 PM

Does anyone like this game...?

It is fantastic, as the name suggests.

I find the entire idea of a 7th version of Final Fantasy to be odd.

Yes, so do I. I think a better title was needed.

They all suck.

True, I do not like the series as a whole. But 7 and 8 had some very good redeeming qualities.

But it's okay, they redeem themselves with Chronotrigger, Tales of Phantasia, and Seiken Dentsu(Secret of Mana).

Those games are so great. Chrono Trigger alone makes up for all the Final Fantasy let downs combined.

Final Fantasy 7 was the greatest version of this groundbreaking series ever released.

Yes true, although I do go to call it “groundbreaking” in any respect.

And that's why it's so sad and pathetic. They squeeze out shit pile after shit pile, and people just eat it up like it's chocolate.

Stories that drag on and don’t relate, characters you never get attached to, one of the worst combat systems ever devised…I have no idea how these got so popular. Japanese brainwashing techniques perhaps ;)

We need indy companies to come back... or for Bethesda Softworks to hurry up and finish Elder Scrolls IV:Oblivion.

Soon my brother, be paitient.

Have you played Final Fantasy X? Tidus, Yuna, and Wakka are so hot! YEAH SHADOW! I SAID WAKKA! I ADMIT IT! I LIKE HIM! Lol

You do realize that the people listed are from different gender categories….???

Yes, carry on, blissful ignorance! Playing Final Fantasy XXXII when you're 60... Which will be nothing more than Final Fantasy II, just with better graphics.

It keeps them in the money so they can grow and take risks on GOOD titles.

YEh exactly, IGN.com whom im willing to throw it on the line here and the most comprehensive gaming website out there

Good website, but they try to stick their hand in too many pots. They need to stick to games, not make comics, cars, movies, etc sections.

Gamespy and Gamespot have both humor, active communities, and a pretty good amount of information :)

PEOPLE ARE BUYING THEM

As did they with Hello Kitty and Pokemon and various other Japanese franchises, that doesn’t make them good ;)

So, the amount something sells tells us exactly how good they are? So, does this mean Britney Spears is as musically diverse, tallented and articulate as... say Jimi Hendrix? That Evenescense is as good as Led Zeppelin? Or, ICP is better than Bach, or Linkin Park are better musicians than Rachmaninoff.

That is both sad, terrifying, and humorous…please, no more…I am about to die.

IGN rate games based on their ability to compare it with everything else in that bracket. They have more expereince in that field than you, im sorry but thats true.

I understand that they are more well versed and educated on the subject of video games, and have developed rating systems and explore all facets of the game…but just because Ebert and Roeper give the generic two thumbs up doesn’t mean it is a good film in the end to ME personally.

Seiken Dentsu, Elder Scrolls games, Zelda, Deus Ex, Dungeon Siege, any MMORPG, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Diablo I and II,

It is amazing what great taste you have Blib.

Edgar Allen Poe never sold, neither did CS Lewis or Tolkein. Hell, Frank Herbert still doesn't sell. Neither did Issiac Assimov, or Authur C. Clark. Nor Douglas Adams nor any author we would consider a genius.

“ “

No good games. Very shitty parts. Worst controller EVER.

Disagreement: some decent titles, but 360 will hopefully change that. Shitty parts? Not necessarily, at the time they were released. BEST and most comfortable controller yet developed…but I have big hands, so the PS2 controller is a candy bar that is impossible to use.
because I have never played any Final Fantasy game

You’re kidding????

I mean, look at Internet Explorer, for Bob's sake!!!

Explorer is popular because it COMES with the operating system, and people who are not well acquainted with PCs don’t need more than the barebones features that IE offers.

DOOM III. Holy shit that game sucked. "Oh, but it has wonderful graphics!" That's because YOU CAN'T SEE ANYTHING!

Bwahahah very true…but yes, it did have a nice look and feel to it. Captured the mood perfectly---instead of calling it DOOM 3 they should have just called it DOOM, since it is the same story despite a different style of play.

Halo. Neverwinter Nights. Zelda: Wind Waker.

I enjoyed these very much. Halo was the best gaming experience I’ve had since playing the original DOOM when it came out.

So, n00b, what are your qualifications again? Stop using others'.

Whoa now…don’t go using the N word unless you are absolutely serious :D

If you knew ANYTHING about gamer culture you would know at least THAT.

You seem confused on what “gamer culture” has become…it brings in more money then movies. Many more people then we average gamer geeks of old play it. It’s a changing place.

Hellioness

09-30-2005, 10:47 AM

*headdesk* It's crap like this that really makes me start to hate the concept of fandoms.

It. Is. Just. A. Video. Game. Chill out. It's simply a form of entertainment. There are more important things in life.

Blibblob

09-30-2005, 02:30 PM

What interests me more is that bu the time you were old enough to be able and capable to properlly tackle such rpg's, Chrono Trigger had been released and so I assume you either got that around release or like the other games, picked up a copy on emulation.
My mother had a very stict no console policy when I was young. She considered the computer bad enough and said that we would never get off of our asses if we had consoles also. So, every SNES game I've played has either been through an emulator or at my friend's house. So, that means I've played Mario on an actual SNES and that's about it. (Though when I was really young my aunt had a NES which I played Duck Hunt and Mario Brothers on for hours on end). Now then. What you think is actually incorrect. I played them in sequential order, about 3 hours put into the first one before I got dulled out(hey, it was an NES game and there was Command and Conquer at the time for me to put hundreds of hours into), then about the same for numbers 2 through 5. 6, however, I played the game about halfway through before I got bored and the same with 7 and 9. I couldn't get into 8 at all, though. After they left the PSX emulation was no longer possible and by then I just didn't want to fork over money for a PS2 and I was sick of console games in general by then.
I played all of them for the simple reason that I wanted to like them so much. Just because everybody claimed them to be so damn good. And of course as a gamer I had to put at least a couple of hours into them or, well, how could I even consider mself a gamer without even trying the world's crappiest most popular game?

Yes true, although I do go to call it “groundbreaking” in any respect.
FF was. The rest, not so much.

Stories that drag on and don’t relate, characters you never get attached to, one of the worst combat systems ever devised…I have no idea how these got so popular. Japanese brainwashing techniques perhaps
Well originally(and I consider myself to be able to figure quite well how life was like before 32 bit and faster processors) the combat system was really good. For the time. Of course it was a hell of a lot more difficult to make interesting and engaging combat with slow systems and undetailed graphics, so they opted to make something that worked. For the time. Unfortunately they never bothered to come up with something more engaging by the time processors got faster... At least somebody thought to make Seiken Dentsu which gives us, for the most part, modern combat systems.

It keeps them in the money so they can grow and take risks on GOOD titles.
Not anymore... when was the last time Square came out with a good game? The last I can think of is Final Fantasy Tactics for the GBA. God damn that was a good game. It and Tactics Ogre. I liked the latter better though, the rule system in FFT was annoying.

Disagreement: some decent titles, but 360 will hopefully change that. Shitty parts? Not necessarily, at the time they were released. BEST and most comfortable controller yet developed…but I have big hands, so the PS2 controller is a candy bar that is impossible to use.
I hate sports games. If you want to play sports... get out of the fucking house. I find the XBox to be loaded with sport games and unoriginal FPSs. I was only pissed off about Fable and them not wanting to release it to the PC... doesn't mean I bought an XBox... I was really really close to doing that, however. Actually, now, I can't think of a single console only game that I desperately want to play, and I doubt that that sentiment will change for quite some time... and by quite some time I mean until the new Zelda game comes out...

Bwahahah very true…but yes, it did have a nice look and feel to it. Captured the mood perfectly---instead of calling it DOOM 3 they should have just called it DOOM, since it is the same story despite a different style of play.
The graphics sucked mostly because Carmack had crappy people working with him. I'm absolutely certain that his engine could handle well more than what was actually put in it. It's still not as good as the Source engine, though. Carmack needs to chill down on his engines' efficiency and put more time in making them work well and at the same time be damned pretty, which is what the Source engine does. It doesn't load nearly as fast nor is it as smooth as Doom 3's engine, but it's still prettier...

I enjoyed these very much. Halo was the best gaming experience I’ve had since playing the original DOOM when it came out.
Halo just didn't seem original enough for me. I found HL and HL2 original, even from each other, but Halo was more just putting you in an odd story with normal seeming first person shooter aspects.

Whoa now…don’t go using the N word unless you are absolutely serious
I was.

You seem confused on what “gamer culture” has become…it brings in more money then movies. Many more people then we average gamer geeks of old play it. It’s a changing place.
Actually, I think you're a bit confused. There are casual gamers, normal gamers and hardcore gamers. I find myself to be, for the most part, a hardcore gamer. I'm "in the know" of what's going on in the gaming world. This is from the news sites I read and the friends I have. Then we have normal gamers, they play games. They play about the same kinds of games as the hardcore gamers however do not play as many genres nor are they as deep "in the know". Finally, we have casual gamers. These people are 40 year old women playing Bejeweled. They play games, popular titles and basic games, however they are most certainly not in the know and they definately do not play nearly as many games or as many genres. Most people you end up playing with online are normal gamers. Hardcore gamers are still quite hard to find as they don't stick to one or two genres or types. While playing Counter-Strike I usually see normal gamers, those who play almost exclusively FPS games. Me, I've played every genre of games and a wide number from all of those.
I don't really consider it to be changing all too much, more people are flowing in and more casual gamer outlets are being created, however the basics are still there. And one of those is that Gamespot absolutely blows.

Evakian

09-30-2005, 06:28 PM

FF was. The rest, not so much.

I suppose, but not necessarily.

Not anymore... when was the last time Square came out with a good game?

Well, can't say i like any of the square titles in the past years, but the philosophy of selling off their big franchises so they can make more goes for other game companies.

I hate sports games. If you want to play sports... get out of the fucking house.

Exactly how i feel about them.

I find the XBox to be loaded with sport games and unoriginal FPSs.

Each system is loaded with sports games, though most XBOX owners are the losers that play them.

It's still not as good as the Source engine, though.

Heck no!
But, if Carmack wants my money to pay for his fleet of ferraris, he better shape up in the upcoming titles.

Halo just didn't seem original enough for me. I found HL and HL2 original, even from each other, but Halo was more just putting you in an odd story with normal seeming first person shooter aspects.

The originality is not much a big contributing factor to the end product of the game. Blizzard has never made what i consider to be an original title, but they did it right and their games just work. From my perspective, Halo was entertaining, engaging, and pretty well made.

I find myself to be, for the most part, a hardcore gamer.

Only someone as critical and overbearing on such a subject, with the wide spectrum of titles played, could be a hardcore gamer.

I'm "in the know" of what's going on in the gaming world.

Same, well, as much as possible.

then we have normal gamers, they play games. They play about the same kinds of games as the hardcore gamers however do not play as many genres nor are they as deep "in the know". Finally, we have casual gamers. These people are 40 year old women playing Bejeweled. They play games, popular titles and basic games, however they are most certainly not in the know and they definately do not play nearly as many games or as many genres.

to me, "normal gamers" are casual gamers, those that waste time...errr play Madden, Counter-Strike, etc on occasion and do not take it very seriously.
40 year old women playing Bejeweled are not even on the gamer spectrum to me at all. :D

I don't really consider it to be changing all too much

'Tis

Actually, I think you're a bit confused.

"Gamer culture" may come to mind as a bunch of nerds hauling in their computers to Quakecon or spending hours on Evercrack late into the night, they enjoy their little community sites and pop their little inside jokes...but the growing population and popularity of many "mainstream titles" has lead to a shift from standards that were set of the pale losers living with their mothers at 40. e3, TGS, those are not filled with "gamers", but indeed are the industry supporters, industry workers, and foremost those who play games themselves.---they comprise the culture, and happen to not be your definition of "hardcore gamers".
When we have a videogame channel on TV (which, pardon my french, suxxorz @$$) and many sites, like Gamespot (which is not itself a prize pig for a source) and constant references in movies, comics, music, TV, and a almost 9 billion annually industry...i think i feel a change in the tides. And it does not make me fill with glee :(

gmsisko1

09-30-2005, 09:51 PM

Cloud Strife and FF VII rocks!!!

I think they will release a new FF movie. The first one sucked!

Blibblob

09-30-2005, 10:39 PM

I suppose, but not necessarily.
Game design concepts for all of the rest of them are essentially the same. They're not new or innovative.

Well, can't say i like any of the square titles in the past years, but the philosophy of selling off their big franchises so they can make more goes for other game companies.
So, what has happened to innovation? I think that Peter Molyneux should found a new distributing company for independant and wacky games. I mean, what was Populous if not mentally deranged and wishing to go bankrupt? That doesn't happen pretty much at all in the modern game industry. A long time ago we had a bunch of really shitty made-for-making-money games and a couple of good games. However, the better games got the press instead of the franchised and almost sure win games.

But, if Carmack wants my money to pay for his fleet of ferraris, he better shape up in the upcoming titles.
He makes his money by licensing out his engine, not really selling his games, considering he's only had a few(comparitively). Besides, he doesn't spend his money on fleets of ferraris, he spends his money on fleets of prototype spacecraft that he designed.

The originality is not much a big contributing factor to the end product of the game. Blizzard has never made what i consider to be an original title, but they did it right and their games just work. From my perspective, Halo was entertaining, engaging, and pretty well made.
Diablo(although a nethack clone with graphics) formed the point and click, hack and slash, RPG system. And 'twas perfect. *Shinny lights* Halo's big thing was their multiplayer, which although not necessarily innovative, was really well done. Except that my fingers have to stretch too far to hit the damned buttons and I got sick of those stupid stick things that they expect me to use to move my gun around. Icky, FPSs are much better suited for the PC.

to me, "normal gamers" are casual gamers, those that waste time...errr play Madden, Counter-Strike, etc on occasion and do not take it very seriously.
Casual gamers play the Sims, Sim City, Caesar(they need a new one). That and bejeweled, that funky fish game from Popcap, etc. But really just those exclusively. The kinds of games that you can sit down, open up and play for whatever time period, no matter how short or long. The more hardcore styled games take a bit to get back into. See, it takes me about 20 minutes of play in Counterstrike before I'm able to take my reign at the top of the list again. And my KDR has suffered so... I liked when the counter was reset and my KDR was somewhere around 20. But I digress, I feel as though there actually is a difference and a middle ground between hardcore and casual gamers that are pretty much their own group.

40 year old women playing Bejeweled are not even on the gamer spectrum to me at all.
You'd probably be amazed at the millions of dollars that go into those types of games every year. Game designers in that genre can make hundreds of thousands of dollars with a really simple game that strikes it big among 40 year old women.

and constant references in movies, comics, music, TV, and a almost 9 billion annually industry...i think i feel a change in the tides.
I find that the middle-ground. Same with what happens in any entertainment industry. The music industry still has good musicians, they're just under the radar. Same with movies, a few make it big(as in good), but many slump(and by slump I mean suck even though they gross way too much damn money). Unfortunately the same is happening in games. It was inevitable as it's enjoyable entertainment that has enough levels for every walk of life. Interaction is a hell of a lot cooler than observation. You'll just have to keep a look out for smaller games that are wacky but good. Mount and Blade comes to mind: http://taleworlds.com/
And yes, I did fork over $12 to get it, and that $12 has taken me farther than with any other game I've bought. Except Command and Conquer. I "wasted" my childhood...