Here's my question for you haters to answer.

Why do you have such strong opinions about why this or that religion is not true? It doesn't make sense to me.

Personally, I am a Christian. I don't believe in Islam, Hinduism, etc etc. But my DISbelief in these religions is not so strong that I would engage in a heated debate on why it's wrong. I don't follow those beliefs, so I leave the subject alone. If others want to believe these things, that's fine with me. I'm not going to try to illustrate why it's wrong. But a lot of you feel SO strongly that religion(s) (especially Christianity) is wrong that you delight in presenting arguments against it. It's almost as if it bothers you that people believe (for example) in Christianity and you want to change their minds. Why?

Not really. Someone says we should believe in god. Someone else says we shouldnt. We all give our reasons, expecting no real effect, but we give them anyway just to sound off.

I believe that this started with statements along the line that man-made religions were brought about to keep the masses in line. That hundreds of religions could not be all right or all wrong.
Why one person would pick one religion over another?
The existance of God is sometimes debated. But, usually it is the demands or total acceptance of mans religions that is discussed.

The bottom line is that any subject may be discussed at any time on this forum. Few subjects are exempt.

Just as your topic could have been titled-Why Such Strong Opinions For Religion.

Just like some people believe so strongly in their chosen religion that they delight in giving arguments for it.

Mr. Fussell,

I'm not trying to say people don't have a right to discuss whatever they want. I'm asking why they WANT to discuss this.

Now as far as your assertion that my question is equivalent to "why such strong opinions for religion" I must take issue with you. Religious beliefs are usually beliefs that, if true, are extremely important. Like I said, I am a Christian. I believe that people can gain eternal life through Jesus Christ. Now, whether you agree with that or not, you must admit that if someone DOES hold it to be true, it's something that should be IMORTANT to them and something they should want to share with people. That's a bit different than being so opinionated AGAINST something. I don't believe in Islam but I find no need to share my reasons for this. Who cares? Why should I want to share this with people?

I think I have an idea why some are so eager to share their disbelief in Christianity, etc, but I want to hear what you guys have to say.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DaveTooner
[B]

Now as far as your assertion that my question is equivalent to "why such strong opinions for religion" I must take issue with you.


Never said equivalent to.

There are a variety of reasons I think many people hate God and Christians:

-The Bible has some harsh things to say about our human condition. It says we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. People like to think that they are basically good, so they find the Bible's commentary on their condition offensive.

-The Bible requires that we turn our lives over to Jesus Christ. People want to have control over their own lives and don't want to submit to an authority.

-The Bible says that those outside of Christ will receive severe punishment. People don't want to think that that is true.

-Some people have had bad experiences with Christians. They've seen the charlatans on TV. They've had some Christians give them a "tough sell" on religion. Therefore they reject the religion as a whole based on these experiences.

-Some people look at the dark periods in the history of the church and reject Christianity as a whole, because of the misdeeds of some in the past.

These are just a few reasons that I believe some people hate Christians/Christianity. Similar statements could be made about other religions, but I'm more familiar with Christianity.

So do you hate christians?

Absolutely Duck.

And btw, great sig quote. ;)

I think uncoolduck has some good points here. Also, Christianity is very powerful in this country, it affects how a lot of things are done, how values are determined...etc. It upsets people who are not Christians; they feel like they still have to very often comply to Christian values and rules, they feel like they have to constantly defend themselves. I am from Taiwan, and I have seen that in many countries in Asia because Christianity is not remotely as powerful (or, powerful, but not as popular), people don't hate it so much.

Also, Christians like you are all right. But big differences exist between all that call themselves Christians. Some Christians can easily upset each other just from ideological differences.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Here's my question for you haters to answer.

Why do you have such strong opinions about why this or that religion is not true? It doesn't make sense to me.

Personally, I am a Christian. I don't believe in Islam, Hinduism, etc etc. But my DISbelief in these religions is not so strong that I would engage in a heated debate on why it's wrong. I don't follow those beliefs, so I leave the subject alone. If others want to believe these things, that's fine with me. I'm not going to try to illustrate why it's wrong. But a lot of you feel SO strongly that religion(s) (especially Christianity) is wrong that you delight in presenting arguments against it. It's almost as if it bothers you that people believe (for example) in Christianity and you want to change their minds. Why?

You answered your own question in your post.
. " If others want to believe these things, that's fine with me. I'm not going to try to illustrate why it's wrong. "

Christians will not leave unbelievers alone. They feel it is their duty to proslytize. They tell us we are sinfull, and constantly try to get us to live by their specific religious beliefs. They infiltrate out political system and courts of law with their one sided outlook on the world. Some examples of this are gay marraige and choice. Because their religious beliefs tell them it is wrong, they feel they have the right to force EVERYONE else to live by their standards.

Add to that the fact that very few of them actually incorporate the basic ideals of their beliefs into their real life. If christians truly loved their neighbors they wouldn't attempt to pass laws that discriminate against people who see the wprld differently. They wouldn't care if two consenting adults got married. They wouldn't be trying to force prayer in school if they respected and cared about other people.

What we need is freedom FROM religion as much as freedom OF religion.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
So do you hate christians?
No. I don't.

Originally posted by Jere
Absolutely Duck.

And btw, great sig quote.
Why thank you Jere. The good thing is that, unlike similar statements we've seen posted in this forum, my sig quote is true!:cool:

Originally posted by Echo2
What we need is freedom FROM religion as much as freedom OF religion.
It scares me to think that there are some people who would actually hold this position. We already see this kind of intolerance being practiced in France, Canada, Sweden, China, and other countries. Radical secularists are trying to force their views on the rest of us by censoring religious speech. Americans find this idea reprehensible. We believe that all ideas should be able to be presented in the marketplace of ideas, and people are free to accept or reject them as we please.

Dio, I also agree with your last paragraph. There are many Christians out there that do things I do not like. I think we should evaluate each person individually rather than lump them in with a particular religion or group.;)

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
Why thank you Jere. The good thing is that, unlike similar statements we've seen posted in this forum, my sig quote is true!:cool:

No Problem, Anytime. :D


Originally posted by UnCoolDuck

I think we should evaluate each person individually rather than lump them in with a particular religion or group.;)

AMEN!

I get so sick and weary of those type assumptions.

Although I love Echo very dearly (I mean it Echo;) lol) she kills me with her "christians do this, and christians do that" approach.

Some may, well some do. But not all, and probably not even a majority.

Christians on this very forum tell me and others that we are "sinfull".

When I say things like "christians do this....." you don't like it because it is my oppinion.

When a christian says things like "we are all sinfull...." "you will go to hell if you don't believe" It is their oppinion.

It is exactly the same thing.

Christians will not leave unbelievers alone.

Yeah, a small minority. Yet you charactarize the whole group this way. I'm a Christian, but you will never see me trying to show a Muslim why their religion is wrong. I may think it's wrong, but I'm not going to bother them with that. I will tell others about my personal religious beliefs (not my non-beliefs) but I won't try to "show" them why they're wrong.

I can guarantee you that most Christians are more like me, than the stereotype you put forth.

Originally posted by Echo2
Christians on this very forum tell me and others that we are "sinfull".


And they are right....however, they too are sinful. The Bible says for we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We are all sinners.

Remember, everytime you point a finger...you have three pointing right back.

Originally posted by Echo2
When I say things like "christians do this....." you don't like it because it is my oppinion.

No, I dont like it because you are grouping us all together instead of focusing on one or however many persons was involved.

Originally posted by Echo2
When a christian says things like "we are all sinfull...." "you will go to hell if you don't believe" It is their oppinion.

Well Yes and No.

It is there opinion that they need to tell you this, but it is not an opinion that we are all sinners. We are all sinners and we know it. Theres nothing we can do to change that, however, we can ask God to forgive us of those sins and he will.

Anyone who says they dont sin, has already commited one in the form of a lie.

Radical secularists are trying to force their views on the rest of us by censoring religious speech.
Now I think that is just stupid. Nothing should be censored, well, unless it is a fully public place. Religion, just as countless other things must be censored in public places, but in something that you can choose to ignore, censorship must be avoided, entirely. However, religion has no place in politics, regardless what fundies think, the government must be atheist. Not one religion is so great and perfect that it deserves the recognition of the government, and in no way should the people be pestered by religious political goals, far to dangerous.

Dio, I also agree with your last paragraph. There are many Christians out there that do things I do not like. I think we should evaluate each person individually rather than lump them in with a particular religion or group.
I judge a group and allow individuals to give me different opinions of them. If they don't fit the group, then why are they in it? A group should give an accurate representation of the individuals under it who are supposed to follow the tenets of it. Regardless, there are exceptions and they are to be taken into account.

We are all sinners and we know it.
I don't sin. Don't tell us what we do and don't do. There may be things that you consider sins, that I don't think make any sense at all. For all you know, I'm a better christian than you are :D

One other thing. Echo, you don't like it when Christians say they believe everyone sins in their lifetime, right? Well, I assume that even though you aren't religious you have some idea of right and wrong. By your personal standards of right and wrong, do you think anyone lives an entire lifetime without doing or thinking one single bad thing regardless of how miniscule?

Originally posted by Blibblob
I don't sin.

Oh You don't?

You dont lie? You dont wish you had things sometimes that others have? You dont lose the lords name in vain? You dont dishonor your parents from time to time?

Like I said, Anyone who says they have not sinned has already sinned in the form of a lie.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Don't tell us what we do and don't do. There may be things that you consider sins, that I don't think make any sense at all. For all you know, I'm a better christian than you are :D

I am not telling you what are sins and what arent. The Bible does that for us.

You dont lie? You dont wish you had things sometimes that others have? You dont lose the lords name in vain? You dont dishonor your parents from time to time?
No. No. Maybe. And no. Lying is counter-productive, and generally more trouble than just telling the truth. Unless you count making mistakes as lying. I am entirely consent with what I have, really the only thing I want more is knowledge, well a super fast computer would be nice, but this works for everything I do, but I don't see really fast ones in envy. God's name in vain? I tend not to say that word, but what you consider vain may be different. It's not really specified in the bible is it? Plus, I consider that "sin" quite (to use the archaic form of the word)vain. I tend to avoid my parents, don't care much for them, and they seem not to care much back. Arguments only over principles, not commands.

I am not telling you what are sins and what arent. The Bible does that for us.
And what makes the bible the say all? The bible has mistakes, scientific, and ones you call translation errors. If the bible has scientific errors, even if you attribute them to incomplete things at the time, that would still be man's work, not God's, therefore to attribute this erronerous piece of work to God is probably quite insulting to his infinite intelligence and wisdom.

Originally posted by Blibblob
No. No. Maybe. And no. Lying is counter-productive, and generally more trouble than just telling the truth. Unless you count making mistakes as lying. I am entirely consent with what I have, really the only thing I want more is knowledge, well a super fast computer would be nice, but this works for everything I do, but I don't see really fast ones in envy. God's name in vain? I tend not to say that word, but what you consider vain may be different. It's not really specified in the bible is it? Plus, I consider that "sin" quite (to use the archaic form of the word)vain. I tend to avoid my parents, don't care much for them, and they seem not to care much back. Arguments only over principles, not commands.

I am not going to go through and pick things out and show you they they are sins, because I do not want to judge you.

I can tell you that you are a sinner, just as I am.

Originally posted by Blibblob

And what makes the bible the say all? The bible has mistakes, scientific, and ones you call translation errors. If the bible has scientific errors, even if you attribute them to incomplete things at the time, that would still be man's work, not God's, therefore to attribute this erronerous piece of work to God is probably quite insulting to his infinite intelligence and wisdom.

The Bible has no scientific mistakes that are not just worded into todays science terms. (i.e. The bat being a fowl)

I can tell you that you are a sinner, just as I am.
Well then. I can see you are an ASS, just like I am.

The Bible has no scientific mistakes that are not just worded into todays science terms. (i.e. The bat being a fowl)
And you'd think God would know that, being the ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE SOURCE. Maybe he should have given the right Hebrew word. Or was it translated into Hebrew from God's language and we have errors there too? Elohim is still plural.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Well then. I can see you are an ASS, just like I am. I appologize if I worded that badly.

Originally posted by Blibblob

And you'd think God would know that, being the ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE SOURCE. Maybe he should have given the right Hebrew word. Or was it translated into Hebrew from God's language and we have errors there too? Elohim is still plural.

Youre missing my point. It was humans that put their on scientifical mistaking spin on things, God is correct in everything.

No. No. Maybe. And no. Lying is counter-productive, and generally more trouble than just telling the truth.

Blob, do you really want to claim that you have never lied once?

Those who say they dont lie are lying.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Anyone who says they dont sin, has already commited one in the form of a lie.

Umm no...I don't "sin" and never have. I've lied though. I've committed adultery, taken the Lord's name in vain, dishonored my parents, stolen but not killed, and never had any other gods before God. Im sure I've coveted once or twice, and it's been awhile since I've remembered the Sabbath day as holy. Yet I've committed no sins.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Now I think that is just stupid. Nothing should be censored, well, unless it is a fully public place. Religion, just as countless other things must be censored in public places, but in something that you can choose to ignore, censorship must be avoided, entirely. However, religion has no place in politics, regardless what fundies think, the government must be atheist. Not one religion is so great and perfect that it deserves the recognition of the government, and in no way should the people be pestered by religious political goals, far to dangerous.
Well, you can think anything you want, but the Constitution guarantees the right to free expression, even in public places.

Originally posted by Vil
Umm no...I don't "sin" and never have. I've lied though. I've committed adultery, taken the Lord's name in vain, dishonored my parents, stolen but not killed, and never had any other gods before God. Im sure I've coveted once or twice, and it's been awhile since I've remembered the Sabbath day as holy. Yet I've committed no sins.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Umm no...I don't "sin" and never have. I've lied though. I've committed adultery, taken the Lord's name in vain, dishonored my parents, stolen but not killed, and never had any other gods before God. Im sure I've coveted once or twice, and it's been awhile since I've remembered the Sabbath day as holy. Yet I've committed no sins.

It would not be good of me to try to beat it into your head that you are, in fact, a sinner.

I will tell you that God considers those things a sin.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I will tell you that God considers those things a sin.

The point I am making is that if you are not an adherent of a particular religion, it is pointless to suggest that you may have in fact violated some of its precepts.

It makes no sense for you to call me a "sinner" when I'm not a Christian, because only Christians can violate the precepts of Christianity. I might just as well say you are a "sinner" because you don't wear a yarmulke, or eat only kosher foods, like it suggests you should in the Jewish faith, or tell you that you are doomed to oblivion because you eat meat in violation of the teachings of certain Hindu sects.

In the strictly religious use of the word "sin", I have never committed a "sin", because I'm not a believer in Christianity.

Originally posted by Vilepagan

I might just as well say you are a "sinner"

I am a sinner, Pagan, but I have the forgivness of Christ any time I slip up.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
In the strictly religious use of the word "sin", I have never committed a "sin", because I'm not a believer in Christianity.

The Bible does say you have to believe in sin, to sin...in fact, not believing is a sin.

I would like to invite you to post on the All About Sin thread....that I have opened so we can more freely discuss such matters.

The Bible has no scientific mistakes that are not just worded into todays science terms. (i.e. The bat being a fowl)
So a bat is really a bird? The earth is flat? I'll make sure I have a long conversation with god, or satan, if he exists. God seems to want to prove himself so much in the bible, yet no other actions relfect this. So it seems more to me that either god just doesn't give a shit, or he doesn't exist.

I appologize if I worded that badly.
Oh no, it's not your wording I find offensive. It's the entire idea that you think you have enough of an idea of who I am as a individual person and of my personal life to place such blame on me. I want to know where you earned your right to call others sinners.

Blob, do you really want to claim that you have never lied once?
It was in present tense, I don't lie. However, I don't remember elementry school at all, it's not a blur, it's just black and empty, chance I lied then, but I don't hold that at all, since I do not remember one instance in that time period. I do joke, but that's not lying.

Well, you can think anything you want, but the Constitution guarantees the right to free expression, even in public places.
Then next time I walk in your neighbourhood I'll make sure that I'm doing it without clothes and pentagams and upside-down crosses cut into my skin.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Then next time I walk in your neighbourhood I'll make sure that I'm doing it without clothes and pentagams and upside-down crosses cut into my skin.

Aside from the "without clothes" part, that would be just fine. Walking around without clothes would violate obscenity ordinances. Religious speech is not obscene.

As a matter of fact, if you could make a case that you were making some kind of political or religious statement by walking around without any clothes, you'd probably be allowed to do it here.

Nudity is still freedom of expression, the Constitution gives me freedom of expression. Don't like it? Look away. The point I'm making is just because the law does or doesn't exist doesn't mean it is or isn't constitutional. The Constitution is no longer looked at in a strict sense, it can't be, the world has changed too much. And what do you mean religion isn't obscene? One may consider it obscene and not nudity. Religion is a private matter, and I don't want to be bothered by it while just walking down the street, or trying to get someplace. Hell, there were a few people giving out Gideon bibles just outside my school in 8th grade, I found it quite annoying. If I wanted a bible, I'm quite sure I could find one, I don't need somebody getting in my way to give me one. Realize though, I am only talking about the extreme display of it, off to the side discussing it is fine, but not when it inteferes with other people's buisness.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Nudity is still freedom of expression, the Constitution gives me freedom of expression. Don't like it? Look away. The point I'm making is just because the law does or doesn't exist doesn't mean it is or isn't constitutional. The Constitution is no longer looked at in a strict sense, it can't be, the world has changed too much. And what do you mean religion isn't obscene? One may consider it obscene and not nudity. Religion is a private matter, and I don't want to be bothered by it while just walking down the street, or trying to get someplace. Hell, there were a few people giving out Gideon bibles just outside my school in 8th grade, I found it quite annoying. If I wanted a bible, I'm quite sure I could find one, I don't need somebody getting in my way to give me one. Realize though, I am only talking about the extreme display of it, off to the side discussing it is fine, but not when it inteferes with other people's buisness.
You must not have read my last post where I stated that nudity would probably be allowed if it was a demonstrable example of a political statement. The Constitution does not single out nudity as protected speech, but it does specifically protect religion.

There is no reason why the Constitution cannot be looked at in a strict sense. The only reason it isn't is because people don't like what it has to say and invent this "living document" nonsense to break the law.

Religion does not necessarily have to be a private matter. People can hand out Bibles if they want to. Would you have also found it annoying if someone was handing out concert tickets to your favorite band or football team? As long as they weren't impeding your progress, there's nothing wrong with handing out Bibles.

Don't like it? Look away:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Blibblob
So a bat is really a bird?

You are, again, going back to what we consider a bird today, in our own science. That is really not a relevant question, because our classification of what makes something a bird, might not be as broad as the one God uses.

Originally posted by Blibblob
The earth is flat?

I do not believe, as I have told you, that the Bible teaches the earth is flat.

Originally posted by Blibblob
[ I'll make sure I have a long conversation with god, or satan, if he exists.

Well, lets hope you choose God.

Originally posted by Blibblob
[ God seems to want to prove himself so much in the bible, yet no other actions relfect this. So it seems more to me that either god just doesn't give a shit, or he doesn't exist.

God provided us with everything we need to know in the Biblle, he is giving us a chance to make our own decision, and love and accept him on our own accord.

[Originally posted by Blibblob
[
Oh no, it's not your wording I find offensive. It's the entire idea that you think you have enough of an idea of who I am as a individual person and of my personal life to place such blame on me. I want to know where you earned your right to call others sinners.

I have no personal distinction that gives me the right to tell who is a sinner and who isnt. However, the bible tell us that we are all sinners. I am not saying that just a few are, or most, but all.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
One other thing. Echo, you don't like it when Christians say they believe everyone sins in their lifetime, right? Well, I assume that even though you aren't religious you have some idea of right and wrong. By your personal standards of right and wrong, do you think anyone lives an entire lifetime without doing or thinking one single bad thing regardless of how miniscule?

Well I can't post for Echo, but it is my belief that nothing is wrong. Just different. People are too quick to judge. Maybe our choices are only choices. No one is better or worse than another, just different. However, i have been programmed by society to judge, so i still do, and often, which i regret, but i'm working on it. Nobody's perfect, but then again, maybe we are.

Homer,

How do you conclude that no one is perfect but believe that there is no such thing as being wrong?

Just for the record, I agree that no one is perfect, accept Christ.

Well I can't post for Echo, but it is my belief that nothing is wrong. Just different. People are too quick to judge. Maybe our choices are only choices. No one is better or worse than another, just different. However, i have been programmed by society to judge, so i still do, and often, which i regret, but i'm working on it. Nobody's perfect, but then again, maybe we are.

So if I go up to you and shoot you in the head "just because," there's nothing wrong with me doing that? Hitler didn't do anything wrong? Saddam Hussein? Stalin? Nothing wrong with those guys?

Let me ask you another question. I don't know how familiar you are with what all the Bible calls a sin, but with what knowledge you do have of it, do you think it's possible to live your entire life without committing any action the Bible calls a sin? This includes actions and thoughts.

Excellent Post Dave.

And excellent examples.

But i dont live by the bible. I don't trust any book, no matter the book to tell me how to think.

On an emotional level, yes i do feel that there are moral and immoral acts. Saddam, Hitler, Stalin were all very bad people by that standard. But, on a higher and more objective level, they were not wrong, but they weren't right either. They made choices, those choices had outcomes. People are too quick to judge.

And as for your post jere, it was a joke. I specifically used that statement because it provided an interesting paradox.

Anyway, know that i think about it some more, i would say that no one is perfect. Stating that someone is perfect is giving judgement on them. I would be looking at their qualities and determining their values. So, no one is perfect, just different.

On an emotional level, yes i do feel that there are moral and immoral acts. Saddam, Hitler, Stalin were all very bad people by that standard. But, on a higher and more objective level, they were not wrong, but they weren't right either. They made choices, those choices had outcomes. People are too quick to judge.

Oh, poor Hitler, he was just misunderstood. We judged him too quickly. Shame on us. What a joke, sir.

But i dont live by the bible. I don't trust any book, no matter the book to tell me how to think.

That is a blatant dodge of my question. Whether you live by the Bible or not has no effect whatsoever on your ability to answer the question.

You miss my point. I'm not siding with hitler and saying that we should see it from his side. Quite the opposite, i think we should see everything from no side. As i've said before, he made choices, the people who followed him made choices, the people who opposed him made choices, and all of those choices had outcomes. It is arrogant to assume that we have the right to judge those choices.

Fine, i'll answer. No, i do not think it is possible to live without sin according to the bible. But it's cool because i dont care.

Yeah, but at the same time, you have already said that he was a bad man.

If he was doing things that we cant say was wrong can we say he is bad? And I think we all know, being responsible for the death of millions of people, is bad, no matter whos judging it.

Maybe I'm just too dim and simple minded... but it is beyond me why anyone would think that it's arrogant to say Hitler, Hussein, etc were wrong.

Using your logic, isn't it arrogant for you to think you know what is and isn't arrogant? Maybe you are being too quick to judge the arrogance of those who say murder is wrong.

Who are you talking to exactly Tooner? Are you talking to Homer?

Yes

OK:D Proceed....lol.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Maybe I'm just too dim and simple minded... but it is beyond me why anyone would think that it's arrogant to say Hitler, Hussein, etc were wrong.

Using your logic, isn't it arrogant for you to think you know what is and isn't arrogant? Maybe you are being too quick to judge the arrogance of those who say murder is wrong.

Yes maybe it is arrogant of me. But i find my self in a paradoxical situation. Im trying to be objective while explaining judgement. It's kinda difficult.

Anyway, why was Hitler wrong? Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he prevented something even more terrible from happening. We just don't know. But that still doesn't take away from the fact that it is not our nor anyone's place to judge anyone else.

I'm judging his actions and they were cruel and heartless. Only a fool would disagree.

Originally posted by Evil Homer


Anyway, why was Hitler wrong? Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he prevented something even more terrible from happening.

Prevented something more terible to happen? Wouldn't you agree that what happened under Hitler's reign was extremely terrible as it is? Committin atrocities are wrong. Just ask the victims who survied Holocost. Hitler was a cruel and ruthless man who no respect for human life. He caused a lot of destruction.

But that still doesn't take away from the fact that it is not our nor anyone's place to judge anyone else.

You have the right to judge his actions.

First Dave, That's pretty closed-minded of you. Im just trying to get a feel for the other side.

If your definition of terrible is having lots of people killed and suffering, then yes, it was terrible. But if not for that something even more terrible might have happened.

A hypothetical situation: No Hitler, No WWII. Still Stalin though. Being a brutal dictator he persecutes his own people. Without being decimated by the German Army, Stalin was free to devote his resources towards reasearch. He developes the nuclear bomb while the United States is still in the depression and now rules the world with an iron fist after turning several countries into lakes.

I would say that might be far more terrible.

And no, you dont have the right to judge his actions. By doing that, you put yourself above him and other people by being able to judge them. What gives you the right to be above another person?

What could have possibly happend that would have been worse than the mass genocide of millions of people?

I want an actual answer to ever take this oppinion serious...and I want to....just give me some kind of example that mind make your statment true.

Homer, no offense, really, but your philosophy is absolutely NUTS. Do you think it was wrong for the allies to attack Hitler? Seems like you would have to think it was wrong. After all, that would be a form of "judging" his actions. Oh, but wait - by your philosophy you can't say whether anything is wrong or not. SO STOP SAYING IT'S WRONG TO SAY SOMETHING'S WRONG! Moral relativism a very DANGEROUS philosophy. Evil DOES exist and it is all around us. WAKE UP.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
What could have possibly happend that would have been worse than the mass genocide of millions of people?


The genocide of tens of millions of people.

It is quite easy to speak of the deaths of millions of people without identifying with the individual.

Each one of the people was similar to you and I. I am sure they had family, hopes and dreams. Each was an individual. An individual that went to work, got sick occasionally, tried to keep a roof over their head, pay the bills, loved and was loved hopefully.
Some were children with hopes for a future.

Taken from each was the chance to live and effect life around them. Was one the future Doctor to find cures for diseases that continue to plague mankind today? A research scientist to end world hunger? A leader that would have prevented the middle-east problems we see today? We will never know.
To live a full life is important. To end one life is to change the future.

Consider your own life. There are millions of people alive today yet, you probably consider yourself the most important. You are the center of the universe. Everything revolves around your world.
Your ideas are a little better, no one quite sees things as you do.
Consider the individual when you think of the masses.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Homer, no offense, really, but your philosophy is absolutely NUTS. Do you think it was wrong for the allies to attack Hitler? Seems like you would have to think it was wrong. After all, that would be a form of "judging" his actions. Oh, but wait - by your philosophy you can't say whether anything is wrong or not. SO STOP SAYING IT'S WRONG TO SAY SOMETHING'S WRONG! Moral relativism a very DANGEROUS philosophy. Evil DOES exist and it is all around us. WAKE UP.

You do mean offense. I dont think it was wrong or right for the allies to attack hitler, it was their choice and then the resulting consequence is history.

Second, while i would like to be able to be so nonjudgemental all of the time, that would be impossible, so i just give it a shot.

Third, i dont follow this ideal to the letter, im just testing the possibility. Honestly, i do think Hitler was a bad man, i was just questioning my justification for being able to judge him that way.

I am just contemplating what makes things evil or good.

Originally posted by Evil Homer


If your definition of terrible is having lots of people killed and suffering, then yes, it was terrible. But if not for that something even more terrible might have happened.

A hypothetical situation: No Hitler, No WWII. Still Stalin though. Being a brutal dictator he persecutes his own people. Without being decimated by the German Army, Stalin was free to devote his resources towards reasearch. He developes the nuclear bomb while the United States is still in the depression and now rules the world with an iron fist after turning several countries into lakes.

I would say that might be far more terrible.

The fact that there are ruthless, cruel people in the world altogether is the reason why any of these atrocities have happened. Whether it be Hitler or Stalin.

And no, you dont have the right to judge his actions. By doing that, you put yourself above him and other people by being able to judge them. What gives you the right to be above another person? [/B]

What about a judge in a courtroom? You don;t think they should make a judgement? That's there job.

Now i will admit that judgement in some form or another is required for society to exist. However, in a courtroom, the judge only decides if the person charged comitted the crime which he/she was accused of. He does not judge their motives or what kind of person. However, often the latter comes along with the former.

Religion is controversial, and therefore incites provocative debate. Sex, politics, same thing.

I realize that my observation may be a bit simplistic in its complexity, but we live in a society where peeking into everyones bedroom is considered an acceptable pasttime. Controversy thrives while privacy has become almost nonexistant. Even a laughable concept at this point. Live and let live is simply a cliche on a bumper sticker. Having said this, hiding ones head in the sand as some potential narcisstic ego-driven power-monger attempts to form his/her own colony of lifeless droid followers in order to create global chaos, is probably not a good idea either. Perhaps a healthy balance of being aware and sufficiently educated while allowing others to believe/live as they wish as long as intentional personal harm comes to no others by doing so, might be a satisfactory solution.

My thoughts anyway.

Jaselle

Thats very insightful. Unfortunately, i am unsure of how to respon. Hold on, give me a minute.........no. Nothing. Oh well. Good post anyway.

Im in the same boat. Im speechless.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Thats very insightful. Unfortunately, i am unsure of how to respon. Hold on, give me a minute.........no. Nothing. Oh well. Good post anyway.




Fairly clear for a non-response. Now...if I were to attempt to respond to your non-response, I too would find myself in a similar words-seem-to-escape-me position.

Oh well.

Thanks for the compliment anyway.

:) Jaselle

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Im in the same boat. Im speechless.



Judging by my recent perusal of your previous posts, I would imagine you have found yourself in a very unique and unusual position indeed.

;) Jaselle

To reply to the original point: If you're going to take the trouble to believe then why won't you take the trouble to argue your religion over any others. Is it because you would all churn out conveniently weak evidence and contradictions until you conclude that you're all dumbasses? and before you hippies start bitching objective's my middle name.

Originally posted by DaveTooner
Here's my question for you haters to answer.

Why do you have such strong opinions about why this or that religion is not true? It doesn't make sense to me.


For me, it is because religion indotrinates people with a certain mindset.

And a certain nation ---with a military powerful enough to destroy the planet-- is being heavily influenced by one certain religion.

Resultingly, the followers of that religion --i..e., Christianity-- are in a position to influence the direction of that nation, its leaders, and --by extension-- its military.

IOW, the Christian faction in America has it in their power to bring about the destruction of the planet......and THAT causes me great concern, since I view religious belief as a manifestation of extreme irrationality/mental imbalance.

"I never have understood why those of us who subscribe to science and logic ---as opposed to myth, magic, and mysticism--- as a basis for our understanding of the "how and why" of the physical reality that surrounds us are perceived as being "haters" or as being some kind of threat to those who choose dogma - especially so considering that we atheists are not the one's running around overthrowing foreign governments, starting "holy" wars to protect the oil supply, and bombing people we think might be a 'threat' to us at some unspecified future date."

Originally posted by Freethinker
For me, it is because religion indotrinates people with a certain mindset.

And a certain nation ---with a military powerful enough to destroy the planet-- is being heavily influenced by one certain religion.

Resultingly, the followers of that religion --i..e., Christianity-- are in a position to influence the direction of that nation, its leaders, and --by extension-- its military.

IOW, the Christian faction in America has it in their power to bring about the destruction of the planet......and THAT causes me great concern, since I view religious belief as a manifestation of extreme irrationality/mental imbalance.

"I never have understood why those of us who subscribe to science and logic ---as opposed to myth, magic, and mysticism--- as a basis for our understanding of the "how and why" of the physical reality that surrounds us are perceived as being "haters" or as being some kind of threat to those who choose dogma - especially so considering that we atheists are not the one's running around overthrowing foreign governments, starting "holy" wars to protect the oil supply, and bombing people we think might be a 'threat' to us at some unspecified future date."

An excellent post Freethinker. My compliments.

Originally posted by Freethinker
I view religious belief as a manifestation of extreme irrationality/mental imbalance.

That's exactly how I'd classify your last post.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
That's exactly how I'd classify your last post.

Can you give an example from the post that you feel is indicative of being mentally imbalanced?

Here are two for ya Vil

the Christian faction in America has it in their power to bring about the destruction of the planet


I view religious belief as a manifestation of extreme irrationality/mental imbalance.



No "thinker", free or otherwise would seriously believe either of these two statements.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck




No "thinker", free or otherwise would seriously believe either of these two statements.

Well said! There is so much steroetyping against christianity it's unreal. A few bad apples in the barrel and many people just throw away the whole barrel rater than sort through and pick the good apples.

How many people running the government are turly christian anyhow? Some profess it, but christianity is a lifestle, not a profession.

Originally posted by Freethinker
For me, it is because religion indotrinates people with a certain mindset.

And a certain nation ---with a military powerful enough to destroy the planet-- is being heavily influenced by one certain religion.

Resultingly, the followers of that religion --i..e., Christianity-- are in a position to influence the direction of that nation, its leaders, and --by extension-- its military.

IOW, the Christian faction in America has it in their power to bring about the destruction of the planet......and THAT causes me great concern, since I view religious belief as a manifestation of extreme irrationality/mental imbalance.

"I never have understood why those of us who subscribe to science and logic ---as opposed to myth, magic, and mysticism--- as a basis for our understanding of the "how and why" of the physical reality that surrounds us are perceived as being "haters" or as being some kind of threat to those who choose dogma - especially so considering that we atheists are not the one's running around overthrowing foreign governments, starting "holy" wars to protect the oil supply, and bombing people we think might be a 'threat' to us at some unspecified future date."


I suggest you read the thread entitled, "Thoughts."

Originally posted by the J Man
Well said! There is so much steroetyping against christianity it's unreal. A few bad apples in the barrel and many people just throw away the whole barrel rater than sort through and pick the good apples.

How many people running the government are turly christian anyhow? Some profess it, but christianity is a lifestle, not a profession.

A few bad apples? The christians are responsible for putting bush into power. They knew his agenda before voteing him in. Therefore they are just as responsible for the devastation this man is causing the earth. I would not call 51% of the American public a FEW bad apples. I'd call them a rotten truckload.

Christians have started more wars on this planet than any other religious group. Now they have the power to destroy the planet.

I totally agree with Freethinker that religious belief is a manifestation of extreme irrationality and mental imbalance. Balanced people do not need a sky fairy to tell them the difference between right and wrong. They have a conscious that goes deaper than mere religious teaching. Their concious does not follow a religious agenda.

I just worked my way through this long thread and I find that uncoolduck is the most convincing speaker, while echo2, bibblob and free thinker mostly answer the orginal question about hating religion because they are among that group who hate Christians and who better to tell why.

On Hitler, he was the white knight that was to right the wrongs brought on Germany after ww1, but in time the white knight became the black knight.

On sin, I can truthfully say that in my 63 years, I have never sinned, never errored or lied. I tried to make a mistake but nobody would ever show me how, and also, I never touched myself there.

The nearest thing to a mistake was voting for Clinton twice but the best thing I ever did was to vote for Bush three times.



old reb

ECHO!!! Quite nice to hear from you again.

Calm down for a second and lets analyze what you said.

A few bad apples? The christians are responsible for putting bush into power. They knew his agenda before voteing him in. Therefore they are just as responsible for the devastation this man is causing the earth. I would not call 51% of the American public a FEW bad apples. I'd call them a rotten truckload.

Im a Christian who did everything he could to get Bush out of power. And just because we dont agree with them, it doesnt make his supporters, "bad apples."....and certainly not "a rotten truckload."

Christians have started more wars on this planet than any other religious group. Now they have the power to destroy the planet.

True Christians have absolutely no desire to kill anyone or destory the planet.

I totally agree with Freethinker that religious belief is a manifestation of extreme irrationality and mental imbalance. Balanced people do not need a sky fairy to tell them the difference between right and wrong. They have a conscious that goes deaper than mere religious teaching. Their concious does not follow a religious agenda.

Youre right. Balanced people need to have their trust in the lord. Forget their sky fairies. :p

Originally posted by old-reb
I just worked my way through this long thread and I find that uncoolduck is the most convincing speaker,

I sincerely appreciate the compliment, but I suspect it will cause many in this forum to question your judgement!;)

Originally posted by Echo2
[B]A few bad apples? The christians are responsible for putting bush into power. They knew his agenda before voteing him in. Therefore they are just as responsible for the devastation this man is causing the earth. I would not call 51% of the American public a FEW bad apples. I'd call them a rotten truckload.

For starters, there was only 2 candidates you had to choose from. Bush or Kerry. not much of a choice if you ask me. I personally wouldn't vote for either of them 2. Many people felt that Bush was the better of the 2. They had the rigth to vote so don;t criticize people for that. Having the right to choose to whom to vote for is part of democracy. About the war, some people feel it is just and some don't I am not here to debate that either way, I am just saying that there is people who agree with the war and those who don't

Also, there is some non-christians who voted Bush and some christians who didn't vote for Bush. You are really putting lables on people by calling them a rotten truckload for exercising their right to choose whom they voted for. Should America be divided between those who voted Bush and those who did not vote Bush?

Christians have started more wars on this planet than any other religious group. Now they have the power to destroy the planet.

True christians do not start wars. I would disagree on that anyhow. Muslims have committed a lot of warfare too.

Originally posted by old-reb
I just worked my way through this long thread and I find that uncoolduck is the most convincing speaker,

Riiiiiight.

Bombastically proclaiming --"Why, "no thinker", free or otherwise would seriously BELIEVE such a thing!!" ....


....makes SUCH a "convincing" rebuttal.

Sadly, Free, he has a point.

I have not seen you do anything but complain about other peoples posting, and make silly comments about Christians.

You are in my mind leaning toward being a troll.

I was scared for a second... I thought you were refering to me as a Troll.... :;starts to cry:: I was called one in High School.

quote:Originally posted by old-reb
I just worked my way through this long thread and I find that uncoolduck is the most convincing speaker,

Originally posted by Freethinker
Riiiiiight.

Bombastically proclaiming --"Why, "no thinker", free or otherwise would seriously BELIEVE such a thing!!" ....


....makes SUCH a "convincing" rebuttal.

I think uncool did a lot of truthful thinking before typing this unbiased report.

UnCoolDuck
Veteran Member

Registered: May 21, 2004
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 320


There are a variety of reasons I think many people hate God and Christians:

-The Bible has some harsh things to say about our human condition. It says we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. People like to think that they are basically good, so they find the Bible's commentary on their condition offensive.

-The Bible requires that we turn our lives over to Jesus Christ. People want to have control over their own lives and don't want to submit to an authority.

-The Bible says that those outside of Christ will receive severe punishment. People don't want to think that that is true.

-Some people have had bad experiences with Christians. They've seen the charlatans on TV. They've had some Christians give them a "tough sell" on religion. Therefore they reject the religion as a whole based on these experiences.

-Some people look at the dark periods in the history of the church and reject Christianity as a whole, because of the misdeeds of some in the past.

These are just a few reasons that I believe some people hate Christians/Christianity. Similar statements could be made about other religions, but I'm more familiar with Christianity.

Originally posted by old-reb
I think uncool did a lot of truthful thinking before typing this unbiased report.

UnCoolDuck
Veteran Member

There are a variety of reasons I think many people hate God and Christians: ((snip)) .........

Sorry.... i missed that post.

You have a good point there.

I withdraw my criticism of your assessment of uncoolduck.

As an aside, old-reb.....could I ask you; what percentage ---strictly in your opinion-- of the populace in the US "hate" religion and hate Christians??

Just asking.

Because several people here seem to be discussing it as if it were a significant number of people, when i would say that it is some small fraction of 1%.

Originally posted by Freethinker


As an aside, old-reb.....could I ask you; what percentage ---strictly in your opinion-- of the populace in the US "hate" religion and hate Christians??

Just asking.

Because several people here seem to be discussing it as if it were a significant number of people, when i would say that it is some small fraction of 1%.

Of the people I know in the real world, I would say 0% for I never met a Christian hater except on the internet, but, I am beginning to think that a large precentage of Kerry supports are anit-Christ even tho the Kerry supports I know in real life have nothing against Christianity.

I very much dislike the ALCU. While not a true Christian, I believe in Christian ideals. But, When I was a Christian I had a hard time believeing some things like the "virgin birth".

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
Of the people I know in the real world, I would say 0% for I never met a Christian hater except on the internet, but, I am beginning to think that a large precentage of Kerry supports are anit-Christ even tho the Kerry supports I know in real life have nothing against Christianity.

I very much dislike the ALCU. While not a true Christian, I believe in Christian ideals. But, When I was a Christian I had a hard time believeing some things like the "virgin birth".

old reb

Most of the people that I have met that hate bible believing christians in general are over the internet as well. I see a lot of people who blame everything on us bible believing christians.

In the real world, I have met a few that mock christians, but most don't seem to hate us. Many, however, hate what we stand for and hate our God. You have given reasons to(why they hate God) recently.

Most people that are into occultism seem to hate christians though.

I think the reason you run into more vocal haters on the internet, is because there is an ere of confidentiality to their statement. I mean, yes, fellow board members will read it....but they are standing before the world proclaiming their hate for a God that most love and adore.

There is nothing more far removed from an absolute than any discussion based on religion or personal theological belief. From Darwinism, to Judeaism, to Christianity, to Satanism, to Agnosticism, and everything that could possibly exist inbetween. Some people worship planets, mountains, chickens, etc.. Simply put, there will never be an end all be all that will envelope and soothe the senses en masse and convert the disbelieving--regardless of what ones actual belief is. Repeatedly attempting to do so will only produce nothing more than ill will and as has been historically proven since the dawn of existence--death by banishment/stakes/fire/hanging/guns/gas/bombs, and on and on. Generally speaking, lots of people having a really fucked up day. The religious debate is as productive as attempting to alter ones chosen sexual preference or getting me to appreciate liver. Its a well worn and oft tread road with far too many corpses left along the way as it is. Landscape that sucker with something a bit more appealing than human mulch. Dont we need more Hooters or Borders?

Boobs and books. hehe. Sorry, cracked myself up for a moment.

The varied uses for Jell-o. Now theres a practical and less potentially deadly debate that could possibly provide an absolute on some level.

I would say christianity has produced more than a few bad apples. There is the holocaust, various inquisitions, 100 years war, numerous minor wars, witch trials, and general persecution. Id say that islam has given much more to the world that is beneficial. They brought back writing and literature, mathematics, medicine, as well as other sciences. True, they have been involved in several wars and most modern day terrorism, id still say the good outweighs the bad.

I do not care for religion. I believe that religious belief robs one of their humanism. I am also well aware of the wars and murders done in the name of religion. It isn't that people believe in religion that bothers most anti religion people. It is the way each and every religion demands that it is the right one and everyone else is wrong. You can look at what is happening in the world today and see how religion is influencing the relations between earths peoples. The we are right and you are wrong attitude is at the root of the worlds current situation in the middle east.

Religion can be used for good, but I see it being used in ever increasing amounts for evil.

Do think you think that bush would have been in such a hurry to attack Iraq if it was a christian country?

I do not care for religion. I believe that religious belief robs one of their humanism. I am also well aware of the wars and murders done in the name of religion. It isn't that people believe in religion that bothers most anti religion people. It is the way each and every religion demands that it is the right one and everyone else is wrong. You can look at what is happening in the world today and see how religion is influencing the relations between earths peoples. The we are right and you are wrong attitude is at the root of the worlds current situation in the middle east.

Religion can be used for good, but I see it being used in ever increasing amounts for evil.

Most people who are anti religious do not hate religious people. We feel sorry for them and disagree with them but we know it isn't their fault that they have been indoctrinated.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
I would say christianity has produced more than a few bad apples. There is the holocaust, various inquisitions, 100 years war, numerous minor wars, witch trials, and general persecution. Id say that islam has given much more to the world that is beneficial. They brought back writing and literature, mathematics, medicine, as well as other sciences. True, they have been involved in several wars and most modern day terrorism, id still say the good outweighs the bad.

Christianity has never produced any bad apples. It's people's chopices that have produced the rottenness in this world. Many choose to do evil unto others rather than do good unto others. Many choose to be selfish, to be dishonest, to mistreat others, to gossip, etc. Why do many blame everything on christianity? I know many christians who are very sincere poeple who desire to live a very moral life and strive to treat all with decency and respect.

About the holocaust, what does that have to do with christianity? Christians never started the holocaust.

Thank you J Man, for being a voice of reason in this sea of nonsense. :thumbs:

Originally posted by the J Man

About the holocaust, what does that have to do with christianity?

I'll tell (http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/godl03.htm) you.

In the 1930's church parish papers and magazines sang the praises of former altar boy and priesthood candidate Adolph Hitler and applauded his anti Bolshevik stance.

Summed up by German Archbishop Konrad Gröber: "We do not fail to appreciate the good aspects of the new Weltanschauung (Nazi Party). But, on a closer look, we can see that the best of it has been copied from Christianity".

From the fourth century to the present, organized Christianity has made life unbearable for countless generations of Jews around the world. Hitler's "final solution" was the answer to Christianity's age old question on what's to be done with Jews for not converting.

"The Jews are inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil... debauchery and drunkenness have given them the manners of pigs and lusty goats. They know only one thing, to satisfy their gullets, get drunk, to kill and maim one another. They murder their offspring and immolate them to the devil ...The Jewish disease must be guarded against. The Christian's duty is to hate the Jews". ---- Saint John Chrysostom, 4th century Church Father

Originally posted by Freethinker
I'll tell (http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/godl03.htm) you.


From the fourth century to the present, organized Christianity has made life unbearable for countless generations of Jews around the world. Hitler's "final solution" was the answer to Christianity's age old question on what's to be done with Jews for not converting.

"The Jews are inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil... debauchery and drunkenness have given them the manners of pigs and lusty goats. They know only one thing, to satisfy their gullets, get drunk, to kill and maim one another. They murder their offspring and immolate them to the devil ...The Jewish disease must be guarded against. The Christian's duty is to hate the Jews". ---- Saint John Chrysostom, 4th century Church Father

Freethinker, Hitler was a satanist and a follower of Alleister Crowley. He was no christian. he may have used christianity as a cover up, but a true christian, would not go out and commit atrocities on others. Did you know that the swastika is an occult symbol that didn't even originate from Hitler?

Most christians do not hate Jews. Just because there are those who do and claim it is of God to hate them, doesn't mean we areall like that.

J Man you make a lot of sense. Of course some will never see the sense you make b/c they are so wrapped up in their own opinions. Religion itself has nothing to do with the things that have happened. It is when ppl twist religion and the Bible to fit their own selfish needs that problems result, especially when you have ppl who are such fanatical believers. One man smart enough to know this and manipulate the system can really screw things up...

Originally posted by the J Man
Freethinker, Hitler was a satanist and a follower of Alleister Crowley. He was no christian. he may have used christianity as a cover up, but a true christian, would not go out and commit atrocities on others. Did you know that the swastika is an occult symbol that didn't even originate from Hitler?

Most christians do not hate Jews. Just because there are those who do and claim it is of God to hate them, doesn't mean we areall like that.
J Man, I have heard posted here that Christians are merely people who have been saved. If, say, someone has been saved, believes devoutly in Christianity, goes to church every Sunday, prays regularly, all that stuff...and they also go off and kill someone, or even an amount of people...is that person a Christian? And, will that person go to heaven?

Freethinker, Hitler was a satanist and a follower of Alleister Crowley. He was no christian. he may have used christianity as a cover up, but a true christian, would not go out and commit atrocities on others. Did you know that the swastika is an occult symbol that didn't even originate from Hitler?
WHAT?! Where's your evidence to back ANY of this up? I don't think Hitler was a Christian, he probably didn't care, his hatred of Jews may very well of been nothing more than a political act, as Germany has had a horrible history of despising Jews. The swastika is an acient(3000 years about, older than the anhk) good luck emblem. More famously it was a huge part of Chinese culture, called the wan. English(celtic really) fylfot, German hakenkreuz, Greek tetraskelion, and the name swastika is from India(sanskrit). So, 3000 year old symbol is from the occult? Which only dates back a century or so? No, the swastika existed in Germany for quite some time, Hitler didn't have to go to any rituals of killing babies to get it.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
J Man, I have heard posted here that Christians are merely people who have been saved. If, say, someone has been saved, believes devoutly in Christianity, goes to church every Sunday, prays regularly, all that stuff...and they also go off and kill someone, or even an amount of people...is that person a Christian? And, will that person go to heaven?

Borg, if you have Christ in your heart, why would you wanna kill someone? If you have Christ in you, then you don't resort to murder.

Sin is sin and we must repent of our sins in order to get to Heaven. We must accept Jesus truly and genuinely. Someone who has murder in their heart, I cannot see how they have accepted Christ sincerely if they desire to murder.

If you have Christ in you, you would want to do good to others and treat others with decency and respect. We are commanded to love one another and do unto others as would have done unto us.

Originally posted by Blibblob
[b]Freethinker, Hitler was a satanist and a follower of Alleister Crowley. He was no christian. he may have used christianity as a cover up, but a true christian, would not go out and commit atrocities on others. Did you know that the swastika is an occult symbol that didn't even originate from Hitler?
WHAT?! Where's your evidence to back ANY of this up?

If you were to do a search engine for "Hitler into satanism" you can find info about that.

Originally posted by the J Man
Freethinker, Hitler was a satanist and a follower of Alleister Crowley. He was no christian. he may have used christianity as a cover up

I will look into your claim of satanism.

As to Hitler's having merely used Christianity as a cover-up and a political expedient, I would not doubt for a second that you're right about it.......my point is that Hitler [very successfully] used the religious belief of the masses themselves to cause the people to go along with committing the horrendous attrocities that were visited upon the Jews.

Religion engenders a particular mindset, a way of looking at the world and dealing with it. And it is the sort of mindset that makes people gullible and ignorant --willfully ignorant --- and that makes it possible for a terrible person like Hitler to be the global force that he was.

I personally am convinced that very few of the leaders of aggressive, aquisitory, militaristic nations ---like Germany of the 30's/40s' and the United states today--- possess ANY religious belief, but are intelligent enough to understand that they can use the cloak of religion to convince the ignorant masses to go along with the commiting of attrocities against other people's and other nations.

I do not believe that GWBush is truly a religious person, but he --or those who direct him-- is well aware that religion is the very best tool for keeping the masses in line and more importantly that religion is the PERFECT tool to use --in much the same way that Hitler used it-- to convince the American People to go along with this country's imperialistic aims and it's exporting of terrorism around the globe.

The religious meme (note: simply another way of saying *mind virus*) is in my opinion the absolute worst calamity and disease to ever afflict the species homo sapien since he came to exist on this planet.

If you were to do a search engine for "Hitler into satanism" you can find info about that.
I don't see a single credible source among them. I'm sorry, but people fabricating Hitler's life doesn't constitute evidence. Saying Hitler did something doesn't mean he actually did. I saw "Satanism in Harry Potter Books" among them! Nutcases! The lot of them! Just as credible as UFO abductions, just as credible as as the MOLE MEN.

Originally posted by Blibblob
If you were to do a search engine for "Hitler into satanism" you can find info about that.
I don't see a single credible source among them. I'm sorry, but people fabricating Hitler's life doesn't constitute evidence. Saying Hitler did something doesn't mean he actually did. I saw "Satanism in Harry Potter Books" among them! Nutcases! The lot of them! Just as credible as UFO abductions, just as credible as as the MOLE MEN.

It's docmented facts about waht Hitler did. With your resoning, you might as wll say that there is no logical evidence that he started the warfare and atrocities that he committed. Saying he did something doesn;t actually mean he did it.

Originally posted by Freethinker
I will look into your claim of satanism.

As to Hitler's having merely used Christianity as a cover-up and a political expedient, I would not doubt for a second that you're right about it.......my point is that Hitler [very successfully] [b]used the religious belief of the masses themselves to cause the people to go along with committing the horrendous attrocities that were visited upon the Jews.



The point I wanted to make to you is that just because someone claims to be a christian, doesn't mean they really are so don;t go out and blame all christians or christianity or God Himself because of the wrongs that some have done in the name of christinaity and in the name of God.

Some will even cal themselves "christian" as a cover up to justify what they do wrong but a tree will be known by it's fruit. You know who the true christians are by their fruits. You know them by their lifestyle. Yes, there are hypocrites in the church, but there are also lot's of sincere christians too. I have seen you bring up worngs done in thename of christianity, but what about the those have done many good things?