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DanF
10-04-2004, 01:08 PM
I recently ran across an article by Michael Baigent a psychologist in England published in Phenomena magazine.
I thought it interesting and am sharing part of the article here.

In 1999 an excavation of a cave, the Hohle Fels in the Ach Valley, some 13 miles west of the German town of Ulm, had revealed a few beautiful objects carved out of mammoth tusk around 30,000 years ago. A horse, duck, and small human figurine were found.
Similar to figurines found in a nearby cave, the Hohlenstein-Stadel, in 1939. The total of 20 figurines found are considered to be the oldest collection of figurative art in the world.
Also in France, at Isturitz, skilfully wrought musical pipes have been found, some twenty of them have been excavated over the years and close examination suggests that they used a reed in a similar manner to an oboe. They were complex instruments demanding a specialised training, and they certainly must have been constructed within a culture long familiar with the necessary skills. In other words, the art of 30,000 years ago was not a beginning but evidence of a culture in full expression of its abilities.
The author raises the question of when conciousness began or does there have to be an origin?
He considers the ritual burial of bodies as evidence of conciousness. He quotes the evidence of ritual burials,according to recent estimates, occuring 120,000 years before our era. He says that this is not evidence that conciousness began at that time exactly or earlier.

The author sums up with..."I cannot find any reason to consider anything other than that consciousness has always been around, fully formed, sort of eternal really."

creetwins
10-04-2004, 07:38 PM
I think this is an interesting question.....culture may be much much older....

exerpt from linked article

Culture, or the presence of geographically distinct behavioral variants that are maintained and transmitted through social learning, was long considered one of the last bastions of human uniqueness in its basic form. Geographic variation in some aspects of chimpanzee behavior has been interpreted as evidence for culture since the 1980s, thus pushing back the trait of skill-and-signal cultures some 8 million years in the hominoid lineage to the last common ancestor of chimpanzees and humans. The inclusion of orangutans now suggests that the capacity for culture is a basic great ape feature and evolved much earlier.

How old is Culture (http://www.leakeyfoundation.org/newsandevents/n4_x.jsp?id=3108)


I am still searching for the article I once read stating the age of a bone flute found. It was really old, I will return when I find it...

creetwins
10-04-2004, 07:52 PM
Here is one......

Naturally, Atema was intrigued by the discovery in 1995 of what may be the oldest musical instrument ever found – a bone flute, apparently carved from the femur of a cave bear and discovered in a cave in Slovenia where Neanderthals lived 43,000 years ago

Bone Flute (http://www.msnbc.com/news/372624.asp?cp1=1)

Neandertal Flute (http://www.uvi.si/eng/slovenia/background-information/neanderthal-flute/)

DanF
10-05-2004, 12:45 AM
Interesting cree, apes [being social creatures] would definitely hand down to their offspring learned abilities.
But, would their be conciousness?

I am beginning to lean more and more toward the notion that
apes and man as we know him never shared a common ancestor.
The more I research the information that is available the more I feel that several species existed and died out. Apes as we know them could have existed also.

If this is not true it would seem conciousness had to exist without regard to brain capacity or mass.

The modern man may have existed in small numbers for a longer time than we give him credit. The conciousness of knowing "I am", "I exist", "there may be more to me than what I see", may be older than previously thought.
It took a concious person to construct and use the flute Cree spoke of. It was no accident.

DanF
10-06-2004, 12:50 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Fussell
[B]Interesting cree,

I am beginning to lean more and more toward the notion that
apes and man as we know him never shared a common ancestor.

------------------------

Would like to clairify this statement - I also do not believe that humans evolved from the clay and rib myth!

es347fan
10-06-2004, 08:56 PM
Very interesting. I've long felt that the Almighty has a sense of humor. Each time we find evidence of something about the oldest discovery of something human, it seems as if another few years later -- another even older is found. Maybe the Almighty folds time and places "new" ancient artifacts out there leading to more & more dead ends.

Where did we come from?

Could Arthur C. Clarke have been right in his book, 2001, A Space Odyssey suggesting that apes were prodded along a path by some type genetic engineering by an alien culture?

What happens next?

philosophytara
11-13-2004, 09:19 PM
Interesting ... that would have to involve a definition of consciousness.. wouldn't it? Well to be conscious of one's self would be the ability of independent thought, yes a dog is conscious of his own needs and desires, which brings us to evolution, I am not saying that I believe or disbelieve in Evolution just simply that if we were once Ape's or ape like creatures, are we aware of ourselves, our place in the world, more then likely not, but then again how are we to know, we can only Hypothesis, I believe that consciousness is something that we perceive on a totally different level in physical form as opposed to spiritual form, I believe that before we are incased in our 'bodies" which only serve as a suitcase for our soul. We still had consciousness, A different form of awareness and consciousness we have before we are born, more omnipotent, and part of the universe as a whole. Anyway... I am babbling but there it is... Consciousness has always been a part of us on one level or another, always ... things are perceived differently through levels of growth and development...... (blah) I will stop talking now.