I noticed that many westerner's have a wrong idea about Islam or are confused about it.

For example, they think that in Islam it is said that enemy's must be demolished even if it means putting innocent people's lives on the edge. :S this surprises me, this is absolutely not in Islam!
The biggest shock is the newest phobia Islamophobia :S !!!
Anyway, these are just examples.

So, as a muslim myself, I've decided to open this topic for any questions that you might have. Even if you're only wondering about it and want to know more, I'll be more than glad to help.

I think this topic will be useful and informative for both you and me.
:)

Hello innocent sweety. I deleted this reply because I brought up things best left unsaid.

old reb

There are a core bit of murderous EVERYTHING out there reb.


There are groups of Americans killing, there are groups of Britans killing, there are groups of Jews and Palestians killing people.

Muslims have just had the misfortune of being placed higher on the scale than others. And its really sad, they we as Americans treat anyone like that, but afterall, we have treated one group poorly throughout History.

Sweety,

Maybe I came on too strong and maybe you just have been busy but in any case I looked up a few things about your country. I am interested in hearing from you on any level. I will tone down for you.


Today, the UAE has an open economy with a high per capita income and a sizable annual trade surplus. Its per capita GDP is not far below those of leading West European nations. Its oil and gas resource and moderate foreign policy have allowed the UAE to become an modern nation with a high standard of living since 1970s.

United Arab Emirates has modern telephone systems. Based on 2002 estimate, the UAE has 900,000 Internet users.

http://www.wanderplanet.com/travel/me/united_arab_emirates/images/tc-map560x293.gif

To live by faith requires that one subjugate logic, personal morality and individual thought. This is true of all organized religions. Anyone that has studied mob mentality and the psychology of group thinking understands that religion is a very easy tool to use to sway people to anti-social ways of thinking and acting. People who may normally be pretty nice individuals will do very outragious things in the name of their religion or to protect their religion.

I give the example of how the Catholic priests who covered up for the child molesters (not the ones that did it, but the ones that covered it up) in an effort to protect their church. These men were probably very honorable, good and loving men. But rather than follow their own moral guide, they were led by the church to believe that anythingwas acceptable if it protecterd the church.

It is fairly easy to convince a person of faith that a certain act needs to be done to protect their religion or in the name of their religion. Especially if the person doing the convincing is of some standing in the church.

What many westerners don't understand is that there are as many different variations of Islam as their are of Christianity. Some reasonable, some fanatic and some middle of the road. To call all Muslims fanatical killers is no more acurate than to call all christians toungue speaking holy rollers.

Innocent, Would Islam ever allow a separation of Church and State in Goverment of Arab countries?

Nice post echo, more balanced than I expected from you.

I would like to hear about Innocents life in a Muslim country. From the map and chamber of Commerce info it looks like a beautiful place.

I have mostly debated with Chechen and Kosovo hard core terrorist. It would be nice to have an honest chat with a nice Muslim lady from the UAE. It could be a rare experience. I might even have to be nice, myself.

I would like her to describe the city she lives in. Does she drive a car? Is it allowed? What kind of work does she do. How about vacations? Too many questions.

old reb

Hello Innocent, I'm sorta new here myself. Well anyways, I always wondered: how exactly are women's rights under Islam? I know about the covering of the face and body, but when exactly do you have to wear it and when do you not? If you are at home, must you wear it, or is it only when you are out in public? Do women there get equal educational opportuinites? What do women normally do for jobs? Are there equal opportunities for that?

I learned in school, that women are kinda sacred in Islam. They are covered up in order to be protected. While seen as inferior, I don't think they are seen as animals. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Muhammed's wife very rich and successful?

From World Civ, I vaugely remeber something along the lines, they are regarded as prized possesions.

Atleast in several more orthodox muslims denominations.

Wow, I didn't expect such nice replies.

Okay, I'll reply to each member individually.

jerejerebinks
Very well said.

old-reb
It's nice to see that you're interested in knowing more.
Middle-Easterner's refer to Dubai as "the New York of Arabia". It is the most developed and one of the richest cities.
Dubai is a very beautiful place old-reb, especially if you're a tourist. The attractions are unlimited.
Most people who come here are surprised by the amount of expat's, it's rare to spot a real national citizen here. Many expat's wear the same outfits we do and such, and copy our tradition's. We, the national citizens, only make up around 23% of the country's overall population.
About me driving a car, well I've not yet reached the legal age which is 18, but in answer to your question yes, it is allowed. Many women around here drive cars. Although in city's which are more like villages and are very tradition frown upon the thought of a woman driving, because the woman should be taken care of, with a chauffer driving her wherever she pleases and carrying her things for her. Because the women is such a valuable creature, she is spoiled, that's why. Although here in Dubai most women who have reached the legal age drive.
Like I said, I haven't even reached legal age yet so I'm still a student. But since you want to know about working women, let me tell you about my relative's. One of my cousin's works in the Chamber of Commerce as an executive. The possibilities are limitless for women, in fact, our ruler encourages women to work and has made a woman's salary higher than a mans, just to get them to work. However, some may not like the idea of a woman working in a mixed place, where men might badmouth her (that is the greatest insult), so it is preffered if a woman worked in private quarters among other woman like herself.
About vacations, do you mean leave from work or just normal vacations? Well, if it's from work then yes she can take leave for, let's say maternity or other reasons. If it's a normal vacation, well women in Islam aren't allowed to travel without a close male family member (aka: brother, father, uncle, grandfather..etc..). Cousins aren't included because there could be a marriage, a cousin is like a strange man, only related by blood.
I've been to Australia and Malaysia twice, Singapore once, London twice, Switzerland twice... And many other places.
My cousin studies in the University of Philidalphea. Her brother has an apartment their, so she shares it with him.
You see, anything is possible if you do it right.

And they're not too many questions :) I actually enjoyed answering them. Don't hesitate in asking more if you wanted to.

Echo2
Wow! I don't think I'd have been able to say it better.
Thanks for your post.

Dan Fussell
I'm sorry, I don't think I completely understood.

Anyway, I'll just answer from what I understood.
Well, we have many churches here in Dubai. Actually, Islam prohibits the destroying of God's house(s) - places where God is worshipped. This includes mosque's, churches and any other places where God is worshipped.
It is believed that God is one, and that He responds to all those who pray to him. This is in Islam.

Locke
Their rights are absolutely equal to men, Locke.
When a girl hits puberty, or starts to menstruate, that's the time that she must start to cover her hair and body. About the covering of the face, that's not obligatory it's optional, and it's preffered if it's done. Personally speaking, I don't cover my face.
Women are supposed to cover their hair and body (aka: wear something that doesn't show her figure). Only her palm and face may show. I'm sitting at home right now, typing this with a pair of normal pyjama's on. I'm not covered because no strange men are here.
When saying strange men, I mean any man who is not a father, brother, uncle, grandfather, great-grandfather (and whoever is above him) great-uncle (and whoever is above him) and step-father. About a step-brother, it depends on whether he's your brother from your mom or dad. If not, and he's the son of let's say, your step-dad and not the son of your mom, then he's considered a strange man. To you, you understand. For your mom, he would be considered her step-son and not a strange man to her.
It's complicated, but that's the way it is.
About equal opportunities yes, it's all equal. You can read my reply to old-reb, I have explained this in detail.

Evil Homer
A woman is covered up to protect herself, yes that is true, because a woman is a man's weakness.
No, she is not viewed as an inferior, but almost as a superior. Did you know that if you compared the tasks that women have to do with the tasks that men have to do, you'll find the men's tasks much more demeaning and tiring?
About Muhammad's wife, that depends on which one you are speaking of. His first wife was very rich and successful, yes that is true. But that doesn't mean that he lived off her. In fact, even if a poor man married a rich woman, the man must still pamper and spoil her because she deserves it. She must just do her regular wife tasks for him. A woman's money is hers. A man's money is his and his family's. The responsibility is his.


Now please let me conclude with a little poem that I'd like to share with you all:

The title is:

To A Non-Muslim Woman

When you look at me
All that you can see
is the scarf that covers my hair
My words you can't hear
because you're too full of fear,
mouth gaping, all you do is stare

You think it's not my choice
in your own "liberation" rejoice.
You think I'm uneducated,
trapped, oppressed and subjugated,
You're so thankful that you're free.

But non-Muslim woman you've got it wrong
You're the weak and I'm the strong.
For I've rejected the trap of man.
Fancy clothes - low neck, short skirt
those are devices for pain and hurt.
I'm not falling for that little plan.

I'm a person with ideas and thought.
I'm not for sale, I can't be bought.
I'm me - not a fancy toy,
I won't decorate anyone's arm,
nor be promoted for my charm.
There is more to be than playing coy.

Who thought up this modern "freedom"?
Where man can love'em and man can leave'em.
This is not free, but life in a cage.
Always jumping to a male agenda
competing on his terms.
No equal pay equal skill
your job they can always fill.
No promotion unless you're sterilised.
No promotion unless you're sexually terrorised.
And this is liberation?

Non-Muslim woman you can have your life.
Mine - it has less strife.
I cover and I get respected,
surely that's to be expected,
for I won't demean the feminine,
I won't live to male criterion,
I dance to my own tune
and I hope you see this very soon.
For your own sake - wake up and use your sight.
Are you so sure that you are right?

From a Muslim Woman

WOAH! I spotted over five typo's!!! o_O

Please :p excuse them, I type quickly.

Thanks for posting this topic Sweety, the time is right for a little change of topic around here. I've got some questions about Islam:

1) I believe muslims consider Jesus a prophet. Do muslims give any credibility to the Christian bible?

2) Can you give a brief overview of the difference in theology between shi'a, sunni, and any other groups within Islam?

3) Can muslims have assurance of their salvation? If so, on what is this assurance based?

4) What is a service in a mosque like?

5) I hear that muslims must bow in the direction of Mecca several times (I think 5, but I may be wrong) a day for prayer. Is there a prescribed content for these prayers, or may a muslim pray in any manner he/she desires?

Don't feel a need to answer all of these at once, I know some may require pretty lengthy responses, and will certainly result in more questions.

UnCoolDuck

1) Yes, they do. It is in the Koran.

2) Well Islam has well over 80 groups. Some groups, like the Druz, are somewhat half-Jewish half-Islamic.
I'll give a breif overview in the difference between shi'a and sunni since they're the most common and since I know more about them.
The sunni people believe that Muhammad is the prophet of Allah. The shiia's believe that Ali, Muhammad's cousin, is the rightful prophet of Allah.
Even our Islamic calls to prayer are different.

The shiia's have this custom of hurting themselves once a year I think, because they believe that they were the ones who killed Ali's sons and thus, punished for it.
Personally, I am a sunni. Sunni means believing in God's word and his prophet. Sunni comes from the Arabic word "sunna" which means the prophet's doings and sayings. That is to be followed.
The shiia's follow God's book and not Muhammad, even though it clearly states in His book that you must bear witness that Muhammad is His prophet.

3) It depends on what you mean by that. It is believed that if you truly believe in Him and pray to be saved from something, then He will oblige.

4) There is no particular service, it is not like a church. A mosque is merely a place where you pray in. You don't wait in line or anything. There are seperate places for men and women. You enter through a door, and there's a place for you to cleanse yourself first if not already cleansed. You then enter the mosque and start praying.
If there were a group of people, then a "jama'a" prayer is done. Where one person, preferably the most knowladgeable in Islam (really, it could be anyone, I've done it many times) leads the group. The person, if a man, stands in front of the men. If a woman, then in the middle of the front row. Or if the men were in front of the women, then the women follow their lead. The lines are organized as follows:
Men
Young Men or Boys
Women
Children

It is better to have a jama'a prayer, because your rewards in heaven increase.

5) No, a muslim may not pray in the manner he/she desires. Prayers differ in Islamic groups, the shiia's have a different way but it's mostly the same.
First, one must be cleansed. That means that he/she must wash his/her palms, wrists, mouth, nose, full-face, hair, outer-ears, arms and finally, feet in that order.
Then, the person must be sure that he/she is properly covered. For men, at least from the start of their bellybuttons down to their knees (no one does that, but just in case, you know). For women, everything but her face and palms.
Then, the prayer starts. Muslims have to pray five times a day, and not bow five times a day. Each prayer differs in the number of bows. For the morning prayer, it's two bows. The afternoon prayers, four bows. The late afternoon prayers, four bows. The evening prayers, three bows. And finally, the night prayers are four bows.

In each bow one must being standing first, reciting the full first verse from the Koran, then any other verse. After that "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person goes into a half-bow, hands on knees. A line is said three times. "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person rises, speaks a line, then bows fully to the ground. A line is said three times "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person is in a sitting position where he/she says a small line of prayer "God, please have mercy on me and my parents". Then "Allahu Akabar" is exclaimed and another bow is done, with a line said three times while bowing. Then, "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person stands up again, to do it all over again.
In the final bow, after the final "Allahu Akbar" a person stays seated and recites two prayers. After that, the person turns his/her head right first, saying "Assalamo alaikom wa rahmato allah" (< it is a greeting, for the angels who rest on both your shoulders). Then the person turns the other way, says it again, and is done praying. :) It's simple, really.

I edited the last post :D cause I forgot to add "arms" to answer # 5.

I have a few questions for you.

What, if anything, are muslim leaders doing to limit the influence that extremists seem to have over young people within your religion?


I feel that in order for terrorism to be brought to a halt, peace loving muslims are going to have to realize that these extemists are the ones who are causing them all this trouble. Cutting off people's heads and flying planes into buildings in the name of Allah certainly doesnt shine a very bright light on Muslim's in general, no matter how unfair that may be. How do you think terrorism can/will be defeated?


Do people within your religion hate the United States? Our politics? Specific politicians?

Will there ever be peace in the middle east as long as Isreal is a country?


Your opinions on my questions are appreciated. And welcome to Allforums.
:)

Thanks for your answers, Sweety. If you're up to it, I'll ask some more:

1) Do they allow non-muslims to visit mosques?

2) I noticed in another thread, that there was some confusion about a certain portion of the Koran. Are there different English translations of it? Is there disagreement amongst muslims over certain passages?

3) Is there a certain course of education muslims go through to learn about their faith?

4) Regarding my previous question about salvation: Under what circumstances are people accepted into heaven? Under what circumstances are they denied? Are there certain works one has to do to be accepted into heaven?

5) Have you made your pilgrimage to Mecca, or do you personally know anyone who has? What's it like? What happens to a muslim who never makes this pilgrimage?

Again, no need to answer right away, but I thank you for answering our questions.:)

Hey UnCool, I think I know the answers from a few of those questions.

2) I believe that Muslims think that the Koran should only be read in Arabic, and they believe that if it's translated into any other language it is fundamentally wrong. It's sorta understandable because Arabic is such an intricate language, and, if i'm not mistaken, the Koran is a giant poem, so it's even more difficult.

3) Ditto. I'd like to know that too. Is it like a Catholic school where they teach Religion? I know that Muslims don't think highly about the separation of church and state, but what about in school? Also don't you have to convert to become a citizen? I'm very confused as to this issue. Thanks for the answers :D

5) I know that every one of the Islamic faith should journey on a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their life. Have you taken yours? And what is that large, black cube that everyone seems to walk around in all the pictures?

Thanks again, it's greatly appriciated. And if you have any questions about the US or Christianity feel free to ask. Jerejere could probably tell you about that better than me, but I think I could explain some things.

Hello Sweete,

You have done a good job of describing your Muslim life in Dubai. I apperciate the info. Here is a Chechen posting about Dubai. He seemed cool at first but later revealed his radical side. I hope you don't mind if I share his post with you.

quote:
I later went on to live in the Middle East for the next 5 years, in Dubai, UAE. I did my studies in Business Administration, and befriended lot of Turks, Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Palestinians, Iranians, Pakistanians. No, they weren't radicals you see on TV. They were warm and happy people, I learnt so much from them. I was fascinated with their manners, culture, hospitability and openness.

I did meet several fanatics during my time there, though...I spoke to them and tried to understand them...but I couldn't, they could not be reasoned with. For every argument, they recited in Arabic certain verses from Koran, those that I did not know by heart, nor could check right away. When I brought an English version of Koran, they only laughed and said that the translation was wrong, and only Arabs could understand the "true" meaning. When I brought my Arab friends and those joined in on the debate, they were only denounced as "not understandint Islam". The whole thing ended with us being "not true Muslims" and that we were going to go to hell.

That was the last time I argued with them. We avoided them ever since, just like most of the students did.

If you really want to know what Middle East is like, you have to talk to your own Christians who have lived there. Ask them if they were discriminated. You will hear for yourself. In my time there I have not once heard or felt anti-American or anti-Christian remarks or feelings, except those fanatic 3 guys whom I mentioned above. But those were harmless idiots..

Really, a person's religion just never made any difference to me in the way I looked at them, or treated them. We celebrated Christmas together, my Christian friends would wish me happy Eid during Ramadan, my muslim friends would listen to rap stars who wore huge silver crosses on their necks, alot of my friends actually went to Church on Sunday ( yes, there are several Churches in Dubai ).

Our beliefs are things living inside of us, they never conflict with my life or relations to others. I think its highly ignorant of a person to do that. There are just alot more things in life than fighting with someone over a religion.

There are alot of Americans, British, Europeans living in Middle East, especially Dubai...I bet you will meet at least one of them someday. Take your chance and ask them what they think.

HaVoK
Our Islamic studies books have been changed, especially in the sections where self-defense and fighting against enemies is encouraged.
Leaders discourage the public by many means. I can't recall them all right now, the above is a small example.

UnCoolDuck
1) No, it's a sacred place and can't be visited unless you are properly cleansed. Since non-muslims don't know the rituals of cleansing, they are not allowed to visit mosque's nor are they allowed to touch Korans.

2) Yes, there are different translations. None fully explain the arabic one, though most try. Literal translation has to be accompanied with an explanation.

3) Yes, in schools Islamic Studies for muslims is an obligatory subject.

4) Under good deeds. If your good deeds are more than your bad deeds, you are accepted. If it's vice-versa, you are denied. In most cases, you go to hell for a period of time, then you can go to heaven (in the low levels).

5) I haven't, but my father has. You have to do it if you are able financially, spiritually and etc...
If you don't do it and are able, you go to hell. If you don't do it because you're not able, then it's fine.
It's very tiring and scary. Some people there are just nuts.




Sorry, I don't have time for the rest. I'll answer the rest of the posts when I can.

Locke

About what you said about the Koran, it's more or less right I suppose.
And about schools, yes they do teach Islamic Studies. To become a citizen you don't necessarily have to convert. Many people have this wrong notion about all arabs being Muslims. Many are Jews you know.

Unfortunately, I haven't taken my pilgrimage yet.
The black box is God's House. It is believed that He is above it. No one can enter it under any circumstances, only the slave of the house who, in these present times, is the ruler of Saudi Arabia. "Khadem".
That's why muslims have to face it when they pray!

old-reb

His description :) is very true. It's nice to see you interested.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember, you will encounter the occasional nut everywhere. Even during the yearly pilgrimage, many psycho's are seen there.
;) This is not in Islam, all the above descriptions are in Islam

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Locke

To become a citizen you don't necessarily have to convert. Many people have this wrong notion about all arabs being Muslims. Many are Jews you know.



From seeing the Palestine/Israel news I get the impression that if a Muslim can get his hands on any Jew, he will kill him.

I see you have some living there. Do they have to wear Muslim clothes?

old reb

Your country must be more liberal than most. In Iraq, it was the death penalty for visiting Israel.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Iraq had been one of Israel's arch enemies until the collapse of Saddam's regime. Iraq's interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi shook hands with Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom at the UN last month. However, he emphasized that Iraq is not going to violate the Arab consensus about recognizing Israel.

Under Iraqi law, which remains unrevised from the Saddam regime, it is illegal for the country's citizens to travel to Israel. Violation of the law could have meant execution during Saddam's rule, but it was not immediately clear what sentence could be imposed in Alusi's case.

Alusi said Israel is no more an enemy state than Iran, with which Iraq fought an eight-year war in the 1980s.

"Are Iraqis who are visiting Iran going to be arrested as well?" he asked.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1096870639043

Sweetie, are you originally from the U.S. or the West, or were you born and raised in the UAE?

Lionel,

That is the greatest avatar, I have ever seen.

I humbly bow at your feet.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I humbly bow at your feet.

I stole it! :D

Got to do, what you got to do I always say.

Id like to have one of Christopher Walken as the Continental, lol.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety


Now please let me conclude with a little poem that I'd like to share with you all:

The title is:

To A Non-Muslim Woman

When you look at me
All that you can see
is the scarf that covers my hair
My words you can't hear
because you're too full of fear,
mouth gaping, all you do is stare

You think it's not my choice
in your own "liberation" rejoice.
You think I'm uneducated,
trapped, oppressed and subjugated,
You're so thankful that you're free.

But non-Muslim woman you've got it wrong
You're the weak and I'm the strong.
For I've rejected the trap of man.
Fancy clothes - low neck, short skirt
those are devices for pain and hurt.
I'm not falling for that little plan.

I'm a person with ideas and thought.
I'm not for sale, I can't be bought.
I'm me - not a fancy toy,
I won't decorate anyone's arm,
nor be promoted for my charm.
There is more to be than playing coy.

Who thought up this modern "freedom"?
Where man can love'em and man can leave'em.
This is not free, but life in a cage.
Always jumping to a male agenda
competing on his terms.
No equal pay equal skill
your job they can always fill.
No promotion unless you're sterilised.
No promotion unless you're sexually terrorised.
And this is liberation?

Non-Muslim woman you can have your life.
Mine - it has less strife.
I cover and I get respected,
surely that's to be expected,
for I won't demean the feminine,
I won't live to male criterion,
I dance to my own tune
and I hope you see this very soon.
For your own sake - wake up and use your sight.
Are you so sure that you are right?

From a Muslim Woman





When you look at me
All that you can see
is the scarf that covers my hair

You think it's not my choice
in your own "liberation" rejoice.
You think I'm uneducated,
trapped, oppressed and subjugated,

You're so thankful that you're free.
I'm a person with ideas and thought.
I'm not for sale, I can't be bought.
I'm me - not a fancy toy,

I won't live to male criterion,
I dance to my own tune
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This Muslim, like most Muslims seeks to show that an obvious truth can be twisted to be something else.

She speaks of her freedom of choice: She choses to wear the same thing everyother muslim wears and the same thing they wore yesterday, the day before, the year before and a century before. That is freedom of choice?

She says she won't live by male criterion but she dresses according to Mohammonds laws, the last I heard, he was a male. She dances to her own tune, strange that all the Muslim women dance to the same tune, how could that be free choice?

When the white knight is talking backwards, when logic and proportion are gone, when one man on the Chess board gets up and you kind of naturally get up and follow, go ask mary.


old reb

old-reb

No one is obligated to wear any certain clothes, you may wear as you please. It is only frowned upon among the public if someone wears clothes that are too revealing. Jeans and shirts are fine.

About the death penalty, I'm not really sure about that.

About the freedom of choice :confused: you obviously have a wrong notion about our clothes. It doesn't matter what we wear, as long as it's not revealing. I wear anything I want, I prefer jeans most of the time.
About dancing to her tune, she can do whatever she wants as long as it's not a sin.

LionelHutz

I'm a native UAE citizen, and was born and raised here.
I've never set foot in America.

Hello Sweety,

You speak well for your religion and I am surprised that you have such religious freedoms so near Saudia Arabia.

A friend of mine dated a Christian woman from Iran and in Iran as a christian she had to wear all the Islamic cloths.

I read an article where some Pakistani men raped a Australian Christian woman and in court they said they would not have raped her if she had of worn proper cloths. Their father went on about the sins of the West but the boys went to jail for rape.


old reb

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
old-reb

No one is obligated to wear any certain clothes, you may wear as you please. It is only frowned upon among the public if someone wears clothes that are too revealing. Jeans and shirts are fine.



About the freedom of choice :confused: you obviously have a wrong notion about our clothes. It doesn't matter what we wear, as long as it's not revealing. I wear anything I want, I prefer jeans most of the time.
About dancing to her tune, she can do whatever she wants as long as it's not a sin.


Sweety,
I pictured you all wearing drap green or brown hoods.

As if the news media was answering me, I saw in todays paper about 15 Afghan Muslim girls aged about 7 to 11 and I was thinking how we are all programmed to love little girls. Then I noticed something else. They wore all different colors and patterns and they all had head scarves but the scarves were not notworthy enough to make them stand out on an American street.

Their cloths hung loose like home made rags but that could be from the poverty of a war torn country.

old reb

Sweety,
I pictured you all wearing drap green or brown hoods.

See, this is the point I wanted to get to. All this media has given you people a wrong idea about Islam. What you're seeing in the news is politics and not religion.
The aforementioned two are totally different matters.
In Islam, women must show nothing but their faces and hands, some women may like to cover their face for it is encouraged. Like I said in an earlier post, my face is not covered.

About that article you read, well, those Pakistani boys are perverted. The penalty for rape in Islam (but is not done in any country because it is thought that it is too harsh) is 80 whips.

Most of the news is in black and white so your robes and covers are drab colors. Yesterday they had a color photo and I saw that you had many colors and patterns to chose from.

You say rape is punished by the whip, do you live under sharia law or do you have a western style legal system?

old reb

lol, we don't wear those :p and to say the truth, I don't like them. No woman is obligated to wear a drape. She can wear a shirt and skirt if she likes, as long as all it's conservative and all that shows is her face and palms.

No we don't live under sharia law because it is thought that the punishments are too harsh (a sin, but nonetheless...). We have a sort of mix between the sharia law and the western system.

Hello Sweety,

Here is a woman who doesn't like the womans position in Islam. Want to comment on her.

Unveiled: One Woman's Nightmare in Iran - "Cherry Mosteshar" (St. Martin's Press)
ISBN 0-312-96288-6
Published: 1996
Category Nonfiction: Middle Eastern Culture

This book is the autobiography of an idealistic young Persian woman who was born to a rich family before the fall of the Shah. Raised and educated in England, Cherry Mosteshar longed to return to the Iranian homeland where she was born. When she did, she learned firsthand that women had no rights in post-revolution Iran.

Here you'll find an insider's look at one family of women living in Iran: Cherry, her mother, grandmother, aunts, and cousins, set against the backdrop of the revolution that overthrew the Shah, followed by the rise to power of the Islamic rulers.

At the same time, it exposes the oppression that women have suffered under the patriarchal Islamic rule that seized power after the fall of the Shah. The stories of several of Cherry's female friends and relatives reveal the state of virtual slavery that many women have suffered under the new regime. For example, a woman cannot leave the country without her husband's permission--even if she is divorced, and she can be beaten if even a wisp of hair slips out from under her head scarf. -



old reb

About Iran, this is not in Islam!
Islam believes that people are free to do as they wish as long as they don't cause you any problems. It is yourself that you have to look after, and teach others but with lovingness not with hate.

The use of the whip to force people to do what Islam says (and defying Islam where it says that people should be given advice and not forced, really, the irony) is a sin.

Thanks for sharing that :)

Sweety - I have a question. What is the difference between Islam and Muslim. I think most people here in the states think they are interchagneable words but you used the term Islam to describe how you live, and you are Muslim living in a mostly Muslim country. Whereas the woman from this book is Muslim and living in a mostly Muslim country also. It is confusing to those of us not familiar with middle eastern culture.

Good question Echo2!

Islam is the name of the religion, it is a noun. Muslim is an adjective used to describe a person belonging to this religion.

The woman is a Muslim who is living in a Muslim country that is not ruled by Islam but by politician's who use the religion as an excuse for their ways of ruling. They claim that some things are in Islam, such as whipping women to cover themselves while they aren't in Islam at all.

I hope you understand now.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Good question Echo2!

Islam is the name of the religion, it is a noun. Muslim is an adjective used to describe a person belonging to this religion.

The woman is a Muslim who is living in a Muslim country that is not ruled by Islam but by politician's who use the religion as an excuse for their ways of ruling. They claim that some things are in Islam, such as whipping women to cover themselves while they aren't in Islam at all.

I hope you understand now.

You say Muslim is an adjective then you use Muslim as a noun and an adjective.

The woman is a Muslim. --Noun
Who is living in a Muslim country.--- Adjective

It looks like it could be both.

old reb

Here in the U.S. we have Christianity with many different sects. They all believe the basic principles but put their own unique twist on the interpretation of scripture. Some are very staunch and have odd rules and strange practices, some are very easy and have few rules. We tend to call the staunch ones "thumpers". as in bible thumper. It is meant as a derogitory term to describe people who change basic christianity to fit their sects personal interpretation. These people try very hard to inject their beliefs into our political system and we are constantly at battle with them (politically) to keep church and state separate.

Do you mean that those Muslims that are not considered a part of Islam are the Islamic version of out thumpers? People who have taken the Islamic religion and put their own spin on it's scriptures and then inject it into their political system?

[i]
Do you mean that those Muslims that are not considered a part of Islam are the Islamic version of out thumpers? People who have taken the Islamic religion and put their own spin on it's scriptures and then inject it into their political system? [/B]

Echo,

When is the last time you heard about a bible thumber taking a whip to someone who didn't dress according to code.

We have radical Christians but they don't rule countries and they don't overthrow governments.

old reb

old-reb I've used the word Muslim as an adjective in both sentences. "The woman is a Muslim" << I'm describing the woman here.

Echo2
I guess you could say so, tho it's kind of different. But the meaning itself is more or less the same I guess.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
[color=firebrick][b]old-reb I've used the word Muslim as an adjective in both sentences. "The woman is a Muslim" << I'm describing the woman here.

xxxxxxxxxxx

I must say, I believe you are right. You know English better than I. I would say that Muslim is a predicate adjective in that sentence and not a noun as I had stated.

old reb

I guess so old-reb :)

I have a small question about Christianity...

Are non-Christian's allowed in the vatican?

Yes they are allowed in the vatican. They are also allowed in all churches. Christians beleive very firmly in proselytizing. They will do just about anything to get people to convert.

old reb-
Jim Jones did much worse than take a whip to someone. Something like 500 people poisened themselves and their children because of religious beliefs. Wacko - having sex with children was part of their religious beliefs, radical christians blow up buildings with healthcare workers in them for religious beliefs over abortion. It isn't any SPECIFIC act I was referring to, it is the idea that nut cases who drift to the fringes of any religion do horrible things. It is not exclusive to Islam. Christians want everyone to be taught their religion in public schools, they want to squelch the teaching of evolution, they want to tell us who we can marry, they want to tell us what we can watch on TV, they want to run our lives by their interpretation of scripture.

Wake up, we have radical chistian in the white house right now.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
I have a small question about Christianity...

Are non-Christian's allowed in the vatican?

Hello Sweety,

I see Echo has already answered you.

Would a Christian be allowed in a Mosque in Christian clothes? What about in Mecca? Would a bible thumper be allowed to stand on the corner and preach Christianity on any corner in the EAE?

old reb

Originally posted by Echo2


old reb-
Jim Jones did much worse than take a whip to someone. Something like 500 people poisened themselves and their children because of religious beliefs. Wacko - having sex with children was part of their religious beliefs, radical christians blow up buildings with healthcare workers in them for religious beliefs over abortion. It isn't any SPECIFIC act I was referring to, it is the idea that nut cases who drift to the fringes of any religion do horrible things. It is not exclusive to Islam. Christians want everyone to be taught their religion in public schools, they want to squelch the teaching of evolution, they want to tell us who we can marry, they want to tell us what we can watch on TV, they want to run our lives by their interpretation of scripture.

Wake up, we have radical chistian in the white house right now.


Jim Jones did not believe in Christianity but was instead a Marxist.[1]
This important distinction of Jones’ political views began a discussion that would continue in subsequent descriptions of him. According to the articles, Jones realized early “that in order to bring people out of their superstition, you have to give them a substitute.” Through the description of Jones’ radical political beliefs, the media found an alternative for why Jones was able to lead so many to their death. The religious beliefs of Jim Jones and his followers was termed “Marxist Christianity” to distinguish it clearly from mainstream Christianity.
xxxxxxxxx

Waco, Texas

David Koresh was indeed a nutcase, but it was Bill Clinton that sent in tanks that did the killing.
xxxxxxxx
Abortion,

Many People feel very strong about abortions. Many see it as killing millions of babies and believe they are protecting the babies when they kill abortion doctors. I take no sides but it is a hot subject. Islam would never allow abortion, nor would Christianity but we have seperation of church and state.
xxxxxxxx

Religion is a wonderful thing, it brings culture and moral standards. The problem comes when those religious leaders have the power of life and death over their subjects as in a religious government like that in Iran. Today, we have no governments ruled by the Christian Church.
xxxxxxxx
I like George Bush but strongly oppose him on stem cell research. He may be religious but he can't even allow prayers in our schools, so he has no power in that area.

old reb

Echo2 *claps* I know ur post was meant for old-reb and I really don't know about the John whatever thing, but I thought that you summed it up really well.
And thanx 4 the reply, by the way.



old-reb

A muslim who is not properly cleansed is not allowed to enter a mosque, for it is believed that is a place where you connect with God. Thus, it is kept clean, and the people who enter it are in turn clean.
There's a proper cleansing ritual that has to be done before entering a mosque. Mecca is a mosque as well and all the rules that apply to mosque's apply to it as well, Mecca is just the central mosque where all prayers are directed to (actually, it's the ka'ba - the big black box - that all prayers are directed to, but anyway).
About your question about the "EAE", erm, I think you meant the "UAE". Anyway, you don't see it much but yes it happens. And yes, it's allowed as long as it's not doing any harm.

Hello Sweety,

I just re read this whole thread and there is a lot of good info there from you. I need re-read it often.

old reb

I'm glad to see :) that people are benefiting from my thread.
Thanks 4 ur kind words

Originally posted by HaVoK
I have a few questions for you.

What, if anything, are muslim leaders doing to limit the influence that extremists seem to have over young people within your religion?


I feel that in order for terrorism to be brought to a halt, peace loving muslims are going to have to realize that these extemists are the ones who are causing them all this trouble. Cutting off people's heads and flying planes into buildings in the name of Allah certainly doesnt shine a very bright light on Muslim's in general, no matter how unfair that may be. How do you think terrorism can/will be defeated?


Do people within your religion hate the United States? Our politics? Specific politicians?

Will there ever be peace in the middle east as long as Isreal is a country?


Your opinions on my questions are appreciated. And welcome to Allforums.
:)

I think sweety replied to everybody but Havok.

old reb

Oh that, actually I did reply but very briefly. I didn't have time to go into detail. I'll do it now...
(sorry HaVoK)


HaVoK

I answered ur first question.
As for the rest:

I don't think terrorism can ever be defeated, it will stay as long as humans are on earth. But to try and stop it or lessen it, I think that details must be taken seriously. Even if they might not seem significant (e.g: threats).
I don't think that I can speak for the people of my religion, since each holds a different personal opinion. As for me, however, I don't hate the U.S people. I hate the media that shows us the way it does. I hate Bush for what he's doing to us. But I think your politics are good, though not good enough if a president is allowed to do such things.
And finally, no, there will be no peace as long as Israel is a country :) I can say that I'm sure of my last answer.

Sorry again, and thanks :) for the welcome

(old-reb, thanks 4 pointing that out to me)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety



I don't think that I can speak for the people of my religion, since each holds a different personal opinion. As for me, however, I don't hate the U.S people. I hate the media that shows us the way it does. I hate Bush for what he's doing to us. But I think your politics are good, though not good enough if a president is allowed to do such things.
And finally, no, there will be no peace as long as Israel is a country :) I can say that I'm sure of my last answer.

Sorry again, and thanks :) for the welcome

(old-reb, thanks 4 pointing that out to me)

Hello Sweety,

Thanks for your honesty. I see a central point of contention between our worlds. While I have no more love for the Jews than you, we have a policy of giving all religions and races equal opportonity and rights. There was a time that we stacked the deck against the blacks in the South but the laws have made that nearly impossible today.

I am sure that you have no reason to hate the Jews but you have been taught that there can be no peace as long as there is an Israel. I believe it is a type of racism that makes all of Islam call for the destruction of Israel. Saddam was a much greater enemy and threat to Islamic people but he was never given the "must destory" status of Israel.

We defend Israel, not out of love for Israel or hate of Islam but because they are humans like us and have the right to live in peace without threat of destruction. If Islam could come to terms with Israel and allow them to exist then a major cause of war would end. The other option would be for us to agree to allow Israel to be destoryed and all the misery that would result. I belive that would be criminal.

I realize you are just a Muslim and not Mohammand and don't set the rules. I have some choice here and I can vote for my president. Last time, I think Bush won by about 300 votes in Florida and that put him in office.

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Sweety,

Thanks for your honesty. I see a central point of contention between our worlds. While I have no more love for the Jews than you, we have a policy of giving all religions and races equal opportonity and rights. There was a time that we stacked the deck against the blacks in the South but the laws have made that nearly impossible today.

I am sure that you have no reason to hate the Jews but you have been taught that there can be no peace as long as there is an Israel. I believe it is a type of racism that makes all of Islam call for the destruction of Israel. Saddam was a much greater enemy and threat to Islamic people but he was never given the "must destory" status of Israel.

We defend Israel, not out of love for Israel or hate of Islam but because they are humans like us and have the right to live in peace without threat of destruction. If Islam could come to terms with Israel and allow them to exist then a major cause of war would end. The other option would be for us to agree to allow Israel to be destoryed and all the misery that would result. I belive that would be criminal.

I realize you are just a Muslim and not Mohammand and don't set the rules. I have some choice here and I can vote for my president. Last time, I think Bush won by about 300 votes in Florida and that put him in office.

old reb

Hi there old-reb,

I try to be honest :) I don't believe in explaining things the way I see it through my eyes but through facts.

About the policy you speak of, we have that too. We too believe in giving all religions and races equal opportunities and rights. There was a time too, in the UAE, when we had slaves shipped from Africa. When Islam came it stopped gradually, outlawing slavery.

You say that you believe it is a type of racism which calls Islam to the destruction of Israel. Your facts are incorrect, Islam does NOT call to the destruction of Israel. It does not call to the destruction of ANY nation or religion. See here, you're confusing politics with religion. Islam does not hate Israeli's, most Arabs do.
And really, can you blame them? Given the way Israeli's treat them? Let me share a few pictures with you:

http://www.falasteen.com/article.php3?id_article=2431
(It's in arabic, just look at the pictures - can you imagine that happening to someone you know? It happens on a daily basis there)

Watch BBC and Al Jazeera, stay away from Fox News.


I agree with you statement "they are humans like us and have the right to live in peace without threat of destruction."
Don't we have the same right?

"If Islam could come to terms with Israel and allow them to exist then a major cause of war would end."
Again, religion confused with politics. The arabs are trying to come to peace terms with Israel, but it's the Israeli's who aren't agreeing with our terms. Their terms consist of building a wall and owning all of Palestine, ours consist of owning the Gaza strip and such. Really, a small price to pay for the peace of a country so big and rich in natural resources, to give a small strip of land to the Palestinian's, don't you think?

"The other option would be for us to agree to allow Israel to be destoryed and all the misery that would result. I belive that would be criminal."
Don't you believe that it's criminal to allow the Palestinian's to be destroyed?
Remember, human rights go both ways.

:)

[COLOR=red]Sweety says:

And finally, no, there will be no peace as long as Israel is a country I can say that I'm sure of my last answer.[COLOR=indigo]

Old reb says:
You say no peace as long as Israel is a country? Then the USA can win your favor if we help get rid of Israel.[COLOR=red]


Sweety says:
Islam does not hate Israeli's, most Arabs do.
And really, can you blame them? Given the way Israeli's treat them? Let me share a few pictures with you:

http://www.falasteen.com/article.php3?id_article=2431
(It's in arabic, just look at the pictures - can you imagine that happening to someone you know? It happens on a daily basis there)

Watch BBC and Al Jazeera, stay away from Fox News.[COLOR=indigo]

Old Reb says:
On the link I see a lot of injured people. Saddam gassed and killed tens of thousands of Muslims but nobody but the USA called for the end of Saddam. Could it be that Saddam was forgiven because he was a Muslim country but Israel can't exist because it is not a Muslim country. If a person visits Israel then he will not be allowed to visit Saudia Arabia. Is that not racist? Saddam would execute anyone who visited Israel, is that not religious racism.

BBC and Al Jazeera are well known to be biased in favor of the Palestine cause. I can give you proof if you ask.[COLOR=red]

Sweety says:
The arabs are trying to come to peace terms with Israel, but it's the Israeli's who aren't agreeing with our terms. Their terms consist of building a wall and owning all of Palestine, ours consist of owning the Gaza strip and such. Really, a small price to pay for the peace of a country so big and rich in natural resources, to give a small strip of land to the Palestinian's, don't you think?
[COLOR=indigo]
Old reb says:
Have you looked at the roadmap for peace. It calls for Israel to shrink to the size of a football field and allow millions of Palestines into their borders. That is a road map for the destruction of Israel. The Palestines instead of building a country are spending their time and energy trying to kill Israelis. Their hate is so great that the will blow themselves up just to kill a couple of Jews. The fence has prevented many many suicide attacks.
Even tho the Roadmap to peace would mean the destruction of Israel the Israelis went along with it in the past but the Palestines never kept their side of the deal. Even today they have competiotion on who killed the most Israelis, Hamas has taken the title from the PA.


I hope you won't feel anger toward me if my opinions are different than yours, but the Israel thing seems to be the core of conflict between the US and the Middle East. It is good that we can talk about it here.

I'm not angry at all, on the contrary, I welcome rich debates...

"Sweety says:

And finally, no, there will be no peace as long as Israel is a country I can say that I'm sure of my last answer.[COLOR=indigo]

Old reb says:
You say no peace as long as Israel is a country? Then the USA can win your favor if we help get rid of Israel."

And the USA can win their favor if they help get rid of Palestine.

"Old Reb says:
On the link I see a lot of injured people. Saddam gassed and killed tens of thousands of Muslims but nobody but the USA called for the end of Saddam. Could it be that Saddam was forgiven because he was a Muslim country but Israel can't exist because it is not a Muslim country. If a person visits Israel then he will not be allowed to visit Saudia Arabia. Is that not racist? Saddam would execute anyone who visited Israel, is that not religious racism.

BBC and Al Jazeera are well known to be biased in favor of the Palestine cause. I can give you proof if you ask"

Saddam was not forgiven. All GCC countries stopped trading with Iraq after his invasion of Kuwait, it was illegal to ship anything other than aids there. No war happened between the GCC countries and Saddam because no one wanted a lot of troubles to occur. America, on the other hand, just stuck its nose in foreign politics (and we, as GCC countries did nothing about because it's Saddam's business) and kept ranting on about how evil he was. Then, they took all the natural resources and most of the oil is now being pumped in Bush's bank account.
Personally speaking, I hate Saddam so don't expect me to defend his actions. He is a disgusting, racist politician, yes. Don't judge Muslims on one person's actions.
Al Jazeera you might say is because its an arabic network and whatever...But why would BBC be biased in favor of the Palestine cause?
You know, I can say the same about Fox News, being biased in favor to the Israeli cause.

"Old Reb says:
Could it be that Saddam was forgiven because he was a Muslim country but Israel can't exist because it is not a Muslim country."

Saddam was not forgiven, like I said all trading from GCC countries stopped, if not all the Arab countries. He still lived from other countries that didn't stop trading with him, this was the best we could do. We don't believe in fighting on the expense of innocent people, the Iraqi's are innocent, Saddam is impossible to get to. The American's alone could not find Saddam for a number of months, killing hundreds of innocent civilians while doing so.
When did I say that Israel can't exist? I just said that there would be no peace as long as its a country on Palestinian soil.
Really, do u think that its fair that the Israeli's take the land that was rightly the Palestinians'? If you look back in history, you'll see that in all maps where now it says "Israel" before 1948 used to say Palestine. It was colonized. Is that fair?
I can just imagine a foreign country invading America, then taking the land and claiming it as theirs, and all the other countries agree to back them up in everything and in all maps there is no USA, it's ******* [foreign country name].

Old reb says:
Have you looked at the roadmap for peace. It calls for Israel to shrink to the size of a football field and allow millions of Palestines into their borders. That is a road map for the destruction of Israel. The Palestines instead of building a country are spending their time and energy trying to kill Israelis. Their hate is so great that the will blow themselves up just to kill a couple of Jews. The fence has prevented many many suicide attacks."

I ask you the same question, are you sure you saw it?

http://bbsnews.net/bbsnphotos/Israel-Palestine/gaza_strip_small.jpg

It's Palestine that's the size of a football field, Israel wants to own that strip for religious reasons. You should know, being a Christian, that Jerusalem is a holy place for Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Instead of building a country? Where's the country to build? It's being destroyed by both the Jews and Arabs living there!
First, peace should exist. THEN will they be able to spend their time and energy in building a country that won't get bombed once they start.

"Even tho the Roadmap to peace would mean the destruction of Israel the Israelis went along with it in the past but the Palestines never kept their side of the deal. Even today they have competiotion on who killed the most Israelis, Hamas has taken the title from the PA."

What started the Intifada? Tell me...
And prove your aforementioned statement.

:)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety

"Even tho the Roadmap to peace would mean the destruction of Israel the Israelis went along with it in the past but the Palestines never kept their side of the deal. Even today they have competiotion on who killed the most Israelis, Hamas has taken the title from the PA."

What started the Intifada? Tell me...
And prove your aforementioned statement.

:)[/color]


Peace was closer than ever before but in a few months violence was worse than ever before




What started the al-Aqsa intifada in September 2000?

In July of 2000, Yasser Arafat walked out of the Camp David peace talks and began plans for the armed struggle to resume. On September 27, 2000 Sgt. David Biri, 19, of Jerusalem, was fatally wounded near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip in the explosion of a roadside bomb. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart. Also on September 28, 2000, Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This visit became the pretext for instigating large scale demonstrations, the start of the al-Aqsa infifada.


From the beginning, in September 2000, the al-Aqsa intifada developed into the worst period of violence in Israel's history, excepting only the periods of all-out war with neighboring Arab countries.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_start.php

Hello sweety,

On the History channel I watched "The Kings: from Babylon to Baghdad", it turned out to be the history of Iraq and Islam.

It was a 2 hour program and the history of Islam was very brief but covered more than I had ever known. I would like to take a class on Islam but then I would be concerned about how truthful the class would be.

As you might know, in the US, the History of Islam is mostly ignored and I believe it to be because of the divisive nature of the subject.

Israel is another Issue. Maybe for a thread of its own.

old reb

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
UnCoolDuck

1) Yes, they do. It is in the Koran.

2) Well Islam has well over 80 groups. Some groups, like the Druz, are somewhat half-Jewish half-Islamic.
I'll give a breif overview in the difference between shi'a and sunni since they're the most common and since I know more about them.
The sunni people believe that Muhammad is the prophet of Allah. The shiia's believe that Ali, Muhammad's cousin, is the rightful prophet of Allah.
Even our Islamic calls to prayer are different.

The shiia's have this custom of hurting themselves once a year I think, because they believe that they were the ones who killed Ali's sons and thus, punished for it.
Personally, I am a sunni. Sunni means believing in God's word and his prophet. Sunni comes from the Arabic word "sunna" which means the prophet's doings and sayings. That is to be followed.
The shiia's follow God's book and not Muhammad, even though it clearly states in His book that you must bear witness that Muhammad is His prophet.

3) It depends on what you mean by that. It is believed that if you truly believe in Him and pray to be saved from something, then He will oblige.

4) There is no particular service, it is not like a church. A mosque is merely a place where you pray in. You don't wait in line or anything. There are seperate places for men and women. You enter through a door, and there's a place for you to cleanse yourself first if not already cleansed. You then enter the mosque and start praying.
If there were a group of people, then a "jama'a" prayer is done. Where one person, preferably the most knowladgeable in Islam (really, it could be anyone, I've done it many times) leads the group. The person, if a man, stands in front of the men. If a woman, then in the middle of the front row. Or if the men were in front of the women, then the women follow their lead. The lines are organized as follows:
Men
Young Men or Boys
Women
Children

It is better to have a jama'a prayer, because your rewards in heaven increase.

5) No, a muslim may not pray in the manner he/she desires. Prayers differ in Islamic groups, the shiia's have a different way but it's mostly the same.
First, one must be cleansed. That means that he/she must wash his/her palms, wrists, mouth, nose, full-face, hair, outer-ears, arms and finally, feet in that order.
Then, the person must be sure that he/she is properly covered. For men, at least from the start of their bellybuttons down to their knees (no one does that, but just in case, you know). For women, everything but her face and palms.
Then, the prayer starts. Muslims have to pray five times a day, and not bow five times a day. Each prayer differs in the number of bows. For the morning prayer, it's two bows. The afternoon prayers, four bows. The late afternoon prayers, four bows. The evening prayers, three bows. And finally, the night prayers are four bows.

In each bow one must being standing first, reciting the full first verse from the Koran, then any other verse. After that "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person goes into a half-bow, hands on knees. A line is said three times. "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person rises, speaks a line, then bows fully to the ground. A line is said three times "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person is in a sitting position where he/she says a small line of prayer "God, please have mercy on me and my parents". Then "Allahu Akabar" is exclaimed and another bow is done, with a line said three times while bowing. Then, "Allahu Akbar" is exclaimed and the person stands up again, to do it all over again.
In the final bow, after the final "Allahu Akbar" a person stays seated and recites two prayers. After that, the person turns his/her head right first, saying "Assalamo alaikom wa rahmato allah" (< it is a greeting, for the angels who rest on both your shoulders). Then the person turns the other way, says it again, and is done praying. :) It's simple, really.

I just wanted to say that this was your most imformative post.

old reb

Hello old-reb.

It's such a joy to see non-muslims take such an interest in Islam, your posts always bring a smile to my face, I find them pleasing.
I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed watching the two-hour documentary.

"I would like to take a class on Islam but then I would be concerned about how truthful the class would be."

I'll help you with that. First, make sure you take classes at a place with a good reputation. Then, research about the owner of this center, find out his/her religion, and background, see if he/she can make a difference in politics. (Many people open centers for Islam and teach others in their own way to give Islam a bad name, namely for political reasons.)
Until then, you are more than welcome to ask me any number of questions you wish and I will gladly answer them. Also, be sure to check out these sites:
http://english.islamway.com/
http://islamonline.net/english/index.shtml

I have to warn you, many sites were launched by people who define Islam in their own, personal view. If you do browse a site other than the aforementioned, it would be better to give me the URL and I'll inform you about the authenticity of the site.

"Israel is another Issue. Maybe for a thread of its own."

I agree, maybe if a thread were opened in the politics section we can have our debate there.

Originally posted by old-reb
I just wanted to say that this was your most imformative post.

old reb

Thank you :)

[SIZE=3]DEAR SWEETY

[SIZE=1] I'm glad you are enthusiastic about our religion.
If you like we can enter into logical & friendly discussions about thetwo huge branches of ISLAM.(If you are eager to do that)

THANKS,
SARAH

:)

I think it would also be helpful to the rest of us if you did that.:)

f-vaziri & UnCoolDuck
Of course I'm eager! I opened this thread to discuss anything related to Islam.
:)

So by saying the two branches of Islam, what exactly did you mean? Do you mean the sects or what?

f-vaziri
Oh my! :p I just read your location and found out that you obviously meant shi'a vs. sunna!

Well yes :) I'm willing to discuss the two sects with you, I have no problem.

innocent sweety

By having Sheikh Zayed as your avatar, it sends a mixed signal to me. I see the name innocent sweety and see a bearded old man. I would wonder about you except that I know why you are using him for your avatar.

old reb

Oh, well thanks for pointing that out.

I've been meaning to change it anyway.

Thank you for your agreement,I'll start to tell you my opinions as soon as I find time. because it is a bit time consuming.

SARAH

Okay :) can't wait

me either

old reb

I have a few tiny questions for you f-vaziri


1. Why is your Ramadhan after ours by a day?

2. Why is your Eid after ours by a day?

3. Why do you group prayers together?

4. Why do you bow on a rock?

5. Why do you hit yourself on your chest?



:) I hope you're up to answering these questions.

Sweety, I don't think you will be hearing much from f-vaziri



From Iran news:
"They want to find out how the Web sites are run, intimidate these young people and put an end to this medium," said Rajabali Mazroui, Hanif Mazroui's father.


http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=695

I assumed I would...seeing she was the one who suggested discussing the different sects. Either way, it's her choice...

It was a worth a shot I guess :) I didn't really expect an answer anyway

I believe the whole point was that it may not be her choice. The article old-reb referenced concerned shutting down access to websites that would have conversations such as this.

If Sarah is a victim of this type of persecution, she will not be able to respond no matter how much she wants to.

Sarah, if you are able to respond, I'd like to know about free-speech rights in Iran. How much of a risk is it for you to participate in forums such as this?

OH DEAR
I did not expect you jodge so soon.Maybe It was my fault that I did not tell you about myself. I'm a university student &I have to go there almost every day. I'm also too busy with my homeworkes at home. If I answer you late I'm studing my lessons.You know I am surprised how soon you give answers back!
Nobody interferes with my jobs and I'm free to do every thing I like;but I've learnt to respect the principles.The government has no obligation expect giving service & provide safety for people.
Your first answer ; I do not know about you but we get sure about seeing the moon &then we welcome the 1st day of holly month of Ramadhan & also the Eid;The duty of searching for moon is for experts who do it in our marja's offices.You know that marjas are the religios experts. So we do not mind the calender but we should make sure about seeing the moon.
The 3rd; We pray together to show our unity.Ofcourse it is not mandatory and whoever wants can do it alone.But everyone knows that praying together is much more precious and GOD likes that very much.
You see, it is a bit time-consuming, esp. for me as I'm not so fast at typing.
I'll come back as soon as I find som free time.

SARAH
;)

I put Sweety's questions and Sarah's answers together so I could understand better.



I have a few tiny questions for you f-vaziri


1. Why is your Ramadhan after ours by a day?

2. Why is your Eid after ours by a day?

3. Why do you group prayers together?

4. Why do you bow on a rock?

5. Why do you hit yourself on your chest?



I hope you're up to answering these questions.

__________________


OH DEAR
I did not expect you jodge so soon.


Your first answer ; I do not know about you but we get sure about seeing the moon &then we welcome the 1st day of holly month of Ramadhan & also the Eid;The duty of searching for moon is for experts who do it in our marja's offices.You know that marjas are the religios experts. So we do not mind the calender but we should make sure about seeing the moon.

The 2nd; We pray together to show our unity.Ofcourse it is not mandatory and whoever wants can do it alone.But everyone knows that praying together is much more precious and GOD likes that very much.
You see, it is a bit time-consuming, esp. for me as I'm not so fast at typing.
I'll come back as soon as I find som free time.

The 5th one
First of all I have to say in every culture people do sth different
to indicate their great sadness of someone's death;in our culture people hit their chest but not too firm as they get hurt;sometimes
some of them do so because of their extra sorrow as their chest get red but Islam did not ordered that.Islam's aime is to help us think of them.I've seen in other cultures people do sth like that;Have you ever said they are wrong?

NOW,what is this sadness?

When sb dies reletives cry for him (like us) I think everyone does.During the anniversary of IMAM HOSSEIN_ who was a man of GOD & he never commited seen (like the prophet & other 11 Imams), and because of that they are our leaders_ clergymen praise their obedience for God & mention the fact that cruel governors killed them. If you understand the fact you will cry for the great injustice towards them.

BUT,it's not the whole story,we do these all to remind ourself that we should obey God like them(respect other's rights,say the truth,pray,help the poor,respect elders esp. parents,do not waist time,enjoy the nature and think of the creator who is GOD,etc.).

So,if we do not think of them & their principles at least every year we might forget about them.

SARAH:)

Innocent sweety


I was shocked while reading your information about Shia!!!

How did you get that?

We do believe that Muhammad is the last prophet.Imam ali is not a prophet but a great follower of his aims.He was capable of being a proper deputy & follower for him.As you know prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him- declared that ALI will be his replacement.(you read that in Hadith-e-Qhadir)It is not wise to say prophet gathered all that prople in order to say he is my friend.The holly Quran is for people in all times.Imams are replacements for prophet & interpreters of Quran not prophets.
Also they were capable of being so because they did not commit any seen.If they had they would not be the leaders.they are the greatest followers of Quran.There is A HADITH(qoute)that leaders say if you find any qoute in spite of Quran be sure it is fake & we have not said that.
We do believe in God,The holly Quran,all the prophets and ofcourse Muhammad,The 12 Imams,Saint Zahra(prophet's daughter);We believe they are all in the same way.


Why do sunni's prohibit Shia's from bowing on rock or soil?

SARAH:)

Old Reb, Innocent sweety and sarah -thanks for this very intersting and peaceful thread ! it's the first time I read a discussion from people with so different views on religion (and most of all on the israeli conflict) that manages to stay friendly and very informative !

I would like to ask a question to Sweety and Sarah : how did people in your countries react after the 9-11 tragedy ? How do you think they feel anout Ben laden ?

Hello Sarah
and ;) Eid Mubarak

In my 3rd question:
3. Why do you group prayers together?

I didn't mean why do people group for a prayer, it's done in Sunna we too believe in Unity. By my question, I meant why do you group the afternoon prayer with the late-afternoon prayer. Two prayers at once?
We, in Sunna, believe that each prayer is to be done at its time. To group is wrong, you have to do everything in its time.

And in this question of yours:
"Why do sunni's prohibit Shia's from bowing on rock or soil?"
This is the first I hear of it, we as Muslims (and you should know this being a Muslim yourself) believe in the freedom of practicing religion as long as it doesn't cause anyone any harm.
And anyway, you didn't answer my 4th question you just skipped it:

4. Why do you bow on a rock?




Oh and btw, is it true that Shia's try to inflict harm on Sunna's and would do almost anything to get people to convert to their sect? I've heard many horror stories.

astrapol2

To each his own, each person reacted differently. I don't think I can speak for the people but I can tell you the different reactions I witnessed:
Most were appaled, shocked and horrified.
A very little amount, the rebellious kind, were happy about it.

About Ben Laden:
Most hate him and wish he were dead.
Some like him and applaud his "bravery" and encourage it.

:) Glad to see this thread was informative for you.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Hello Sarah
and ;) Eid Mubarak
And anyway, you didn't answer my 4th question you just skipped it:

4. Why do you bow on a rock?

Oh and btw, is it true that Shia's try to inflict harm on Sunna's and would do almost anything to get people to convert to their sect? I've heard many horror stories.

Hello sweety
Eid mobarak

You know that I won't skip them'

We all bow,right? What do you bow on? Every thing available?
Carpet,the floor,etc. It is obvious that we should bow on sth,but what is the most appropriate.What do you think of the most appropriate one?I'll tell you my whole answer but first I should know what you think of that.


About your 2nd statement I should say NO , NEVER There is no obligation to admit other's ideas.We never try to do so.(La ecraha feddin)
In my country which is a Shi'a one,there are also many Sunnis
esp. in Kordestan,Kermanshah,etc provinces.We all live happily together.We all celebrate prophet's birthday,Mab'ath,Islamic
revelution,etc. together.I've never heard anything against them from TV,radio,press & anywhere else;But I've heard many other things like: We are all Muslem,respect them,keep your unity with them,etc.If you had heard just one statement from" Ayatollah Khamenei " you would not have asked that.Finally I say:In spite of many contrasts, WE LOVE TOGETHER.

So is about Chrstains,there are many in Isfahan,Tehran,Shiraz,etc. but we love eachother as human brings & country fellows.I've seen lots of them contented with the new Islamic governors;even I'v seen lots of them who love our Islamic leaders such as "Imam Hossein".We never disciss with them, trying to convince them accept our religion,etc.

Anyway,I've heard of many propagandas against my country,none of them was true.

SARAH
;)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Hello Sarah
and ;) Eid Mubarak

In my 3rd question:
3. Why do you group prayers together?

I didn't mean why do people group for a prayer, it's done in Sunna we too believe in Unity. By my question, I meant why do you group the afternoon prayer with the late-afternoon prayer. Two prayers at once?
We, in Sunna, believe that each prayer is to be done at its time. To group is wrong, you have to do everything in its time.

And in this question of yours:
"Why do sunni's prohibit Shia's from bowing on rock or soil?"
This is the first I hear of it, we as Muslims (and you should know this being a Muslim yourself) believe in the freedom of practicing religion as long as it doesn't cause anyone any harm.
And anyway, you didn't answer my 4th question you just skipped it:

4. Why do you bow on a rock?




Oh and btw, is it true that Shia's try to inflict harm on Sunna's and would do almost anything to get people to convert to their sect? I've heard many horror stories.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck


Sarah, if you are able to respond, I'd like to know about free-speech rights in Iran. How much of a risk is it for you to participate in forums such as this?

Dear UnCoolDuck

You see I'm free.No one will stop me.Many friends of mine are members of other discussion sites.In Iran you have the right to speak freely;You can criticise authorities, newspapers,actors,direcors,etc.but not to insult others.If you criticise them enthusiastically,they will answer you warmly,trying to solve the problems.That's all I've seen here.

SARAH:)

Originally posted by astrapol2


I would like to ask a question to Sweety and Sarah : how did people in your countries react after the 9-11 tragedy ? How do you think they feel anout Ben laden ?


ASTRAPOL2

Ben Laden is a member of a pretty rich family from Saudia-
Arabia.They had great relationships with Bush family esp. in economic ones.

There is another thing they formed a new party in Afganestan under the name os Islam.Muslems were appaled to here some men named muslems had maid a rule that womwn must not get out of home,men must grow a long beard more than one span,etc.otherwise they will be killed.
These people maid this deadly party just to spoil Islam's face.
(I feel sorry about that)
So, it is obvious that we all hate him very much.


About the mysterious incidence of 9-11;

I believe it is still so foggy.I haven't got a clue about the reasons.
:confused: I don't think anyone got happy,some human beings were kiled.

SARAh:)

Thanks for that answer, Sarah. I'm glad things are going well and that you are able to participate here!

I'm glad to see :) that this thread has been informative to you.

Here, check this site it's very very informative:
http://www.jannah.com/video/

It has video clips.

Thanks for that link, IS. I took a quick look and bookmarked it. I'll look into it more in depth later.

IS - I am learning so much from your posts.

I have a question about Islam. In the Christian world there is a great debate about whether evolution is science or fiction. Evangelical christians don't want to accept the science because it goes against their teachings that God created man. While the majority of people believe that evolution was part of Gods plan. How do Muslims feel about evolution?

UnCoolDuck & Echo2

It's nice to see :) that my posts have been informative

Echo2

The Muslim's view :) is like the Christian's view. It goes against our teachings because we too believe that God created man.
Remember, we beleive in all the prophets and in God's creation and in Adam and Eve...etc... just like the Jews and Christians.
We believe that Judaism is one of God's religions where His Holy Book is followed, the Torah. After that, the Bible with Christianity. Then finally, Islam with the Koran. As each new religion comes, it has to be the one followed.

Personally speaking, I don't believe in evolution. Some say it's the only possibility, yet science has always assumed that theirs was the only possibility and most of the time it turns out to be wrong.

Sweety,

As a Sunni, do you only have five pillars of faith?

Sarah,

As a Shia, do you have 7 pillars of faith or are you a twelver?

old reb

Originally posted by old-reb

Sarah,

As a Shia, do you have 7 pillars of faith or are you a twelver?

old reb

We've got 5 pillars:

1:Monotheism:There is just one God.
2-Justice:God never commits oppression& cruelity towards his creatures.
3-Prphets:God has sent prophets in order to guid people throgh
his way.
4-Leaders:Muhammad was the last prophet with the most perfect
program of life.But,as you know the world changes day by day.
some new problems start to exist.Here should be a perfect person
who is the wisest & greatest follower of all.His duty is to guid people & make laws for new problems,thogh, exactly according to
the main principles.This job is of overriding importance because
they should help people keep their tendency towards religion
also this expertise can't be gained easily.There are 12 people who did this job.The 1st one started his job after the last prophet's death.The last one is still alive(just like crist).
5-Gudgement day:One day all the creatures from ADAM to the last one will become alive.Evwryone goes to the hell or heaven
according to his life in this world.

SARAH:)

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety
Hello Sarah
In my 3rd question:
By my question, I meant why do you group the afternoon prayer with the late-afternoon prayer. Two prayers at once?
We, in Sunna, believe that each prayer is to be done at its time. To group is wrong, you have to do everything in its time.

.

In both sunna's & Shia's FEQH(instructoins) the time of afternoon prayer starts exactly after the end of noon prayer.It is better -Mostahab- to say the afternoon prayer at the time you mentioned, but it's not mandatory.Sunnas group the prayers too.sometimes like the time they are travelling,In Zi-hajjah month -when pilgrims set off for Mecca-,etc.
In our mosques we group the prayers so as we can do our other jobs.It's difficult to find 5 times for prayer.

As you know in Islam there are 3 kinds of jobs,if you do them properly you are a good follower.

1st: Do the obligatory jobs, like saying your prayers,fasting,etc.

2nd:Avoid sins, like accusing other people while they are not guilty,backbiting,stealing other's properties,insulting parents,etc.

3rd:Have a happy life,work,provide a safe, covenient,happy life for your family,study,etc.

SARAH:)

old-reb
Yes :D

Sarah
We, the Sunni, only group our prayers if we have to and have no other choice. Otherwise, we pray normally, not grouping anything with the other.

Originally posted by Innocent Sweety

Sarah
We, the Sunni, only group our prayers if we have to and have no other choice. Otherwise, we pray normally, not grouping anything with the other.

I know that,because I've been to Mecca once.I've come across many of them.As you said you do it when you've got no choice.
So it's not mandatory.

SARAH:)

Originally posted by f-vaziri
We've got 5 pillars:

1:Monotheism:There is just one God.
2-Justice:God never commits oppression& cruelity towards his creatures.
3-Prphets:God has sent prophets in order to guid people throgh
his way.
4-Leaders:Muhammad was the last prophet with the most perfect
program of life.But,as you know the world changes day by day.
some new problems start to exist.Here should be a perfect person
who is the wisest & greatest follower of all.His duty is to guid people & make laws for new problems,thogh, exactly according to
the main principles.This job is of overriding importance because
they should help people keep their tendency towards religion
also this expertise can't be gained easily.There are 12 people who did this job.The 1st one started his job after the last prophet's death.The last one is still alive(just like crist).
5-Gudgement day:One day all the creatures from ADAM to the last one will become alive.Evwryone goes to the hell or heaven
according to his life in this world.

SARAH:)

Hello Sarah,

How can you account for the fact that most web sites claim Shia Muslims have 7 pillars while Sunnis have only 5?

Shi’a Muslim--95% (63,979,000).



Distinctive Shi’a practice includes: - Seven pillars of faith. In addition to the five pillars shared with all Muslims, most Shi'a practitioners add:

*

Jihad--the crusade to protect Islamic lands, beliefs and institutions
*

The requirement to do good works and avoid all evil thoughts, words and deeds.

The Five basic principles of faith (the first three being shared by most all Muslims) are:

*

(1) One God
*

(2) the Prophet Muhammad is the last of the line of prophets chosen by God
*

(3) the resurrection of the body and soul
*

(4) Divine justice will reward/punish believers according to their actions and will
*

(5) the Twelve Imams, successors to Muhammad, were sinless and free from error, chosen by God through Muhammad.

Imamate (ee-MAHM-uh). A spiritual and political leader combined.


http://wrc.lingnet.org/iran.htm



Conflicts

· Periodic flare-ups with the UAE arise over Abu Musa Island in the Persian Gulf.



· Non-Islamists: Presently, a deadly silence is imposed (by the ruling clerics) on all non-Islamists. This silence applies not only to secular Iranians but also to Islamic groups not sharing the regime’s Islamic vision as well.

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Sarah,

How can you account for the fact that most web sites claim Shia Muslims have 7 pillars while Sunnis have only 5?

ShiÂ’a Muslim--95% (63,979,000).

Distinctive ShiÂ’a practice includes: - Seven pillars of faith. In addition to the five pillars shared with all Muslims, most Shi'a practitioners add:

Jihad--the crusade to protect Islamic lands, beliefs and institutions
*

The requirement to do good works and avoid all evil thoughts, words and deeds.

The Five basic principles of faith (the first three being shared by most all Muslims) are:

*
(1) One God
*
(2) the Prophet Muhammad is the last of the line of prophets chosen by God
*
(3) the resurrection of the body and soul
*
(4) Divine justice will reward/punish believers according to their actions and will
*
(5) the Twelve Imams, successors to Muhammad, were sinless and free from error, chosen by God through Muhammad.

Imamate (ee-MAHM-uh). A spiritual and political leader combined.

Conflicts

· Periodic flare-ups with the UAE arise over Abu Musa Island in the Persian Gulf.

· Non-Islamists: Presently, a deadly silence is imposed (by the ruling clerics) on all non-Islamists. This silence applies not only to secular Iranians but also to Islamic groups not sharing the regime’s Islamic vision as well.

Hello old-reb

First of all I've to say Sarah-Q is the previous F-vaziri.
I had to change my username for some reasons which required
registering again. :D

I appriciate your curiosity.

I ensure you I've told what exactly in Islam is.(esp.Shia)

There are 5 pillars as I mentioned.We even tell them by the order I told.

The info. in that site about this topic was exactly right.

The 1st 3 are for all muslems in any sect.
The last 2 are believed atleast among Shias.

Jihad,etc are really important, but not mentioned in the pillars.(osul-e-din=pillars of religion)

Would you illuminate the conflict part,please?:rolleyes:

SARAH:)

INNOCENT SWEETY

I'm still waiting to know your thread about bowing on rock.
It seems you're too much busy mith "in the hot seat".

SARAH;)

Is it necessary to tell again I'm the previous f-vaziri?