I feel that there is something fundementally wrong with monotheism. It is too absolute, to definite. There is no room for change. Monotheistic religions reject other religions because their God is absolute. On the other side, polytheistic religions tend to not have problems with other religions, because hey, whats one more god to the pantheon? It is to my knowlege that there wasn't even the concept of holy war until monotheistic religions came along.

Some logic in what you say. The attitude of my God is the one and only probably created new problems.
I think the self imposed rules and regulations of religions were the root problem that led to disagreements.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

ooo. very nice quote.

I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with monothiesm, polythiesm, or views like Taoism and Shinto (not too sure about this one) where there is no god but a cosmo force. I think monothiesm has potential for more control over followers--it's a lot more authoritative.

I believe that even before any organized religion is founded, people in the area of its origin would have likely already shared a general expectation or agreement on one of those belief systems.

Well its good thing the one and only God is a loving one, or it would suck wouldnt it?

What would suck? Life? Life already sucks.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Well its good thing the one and only God is a loving one, or it would suck wouldnt it?

Now this statement throws me. That is to say that I was taught in Catholic school that god is good and loving but the bible shows us a cmpletely different picture. If the bible is truthfull, he is vengefull and hatefull.

When I look at the world today and the history of humanity and I think to myself, if some entity had complete and total control over everything that happens here on earth, and that entity allowed all this pain and suffering to continue as long as it has - would I call that entity loving?

Being a Taoist, I just can't wrap my mind around a god with an agenda. Something as all powerfull as a god would have no need for an agenda. And having an agenda that required the absolute devotion of a lower being upon threat of eternal damnation is manipulative and narcisistic.

Originally posted by Echo2


Being a Taoist, I just can't wrap my mind around a god with an agenda. Something as all powerfull as a god would have no need for an agenda. And having an agenda that required the absolute devotion of a lower being upon threat of eternal damnation is manipulative and narcisistic.

Some lower beings have absolute devotion as their agenda.
Like Ole Shep my dog I was raised with. He probably thought I was some kind of God. In reality I was just his friend.
Some books about obedience expected more of my dog. But, I just wanted him to be happy. Funny thing about having a relationship out of a book. I would have had to base my relationship with my dog on another persons experience. He might have even feared me. Glad I stuck with my personal experiences. We were such good friends for 17 years, and I always saw that he had what he needed.

Originally posted by Echo2
Now this statement throws me. That is to say that I was taught in Catholic school that god is good and loving but the bible shows us a cmpletely different picture. If the bible is truthfull, he is vengefull and hatefull.

When I look at the world today and the history of humanity and I think to myself, if some entity had complete and total control over everything that happens here on earth, and that entity allowed all this pain and suffering to continue as long as it has - would I call that entity loving?

Being a Taoist, I just can't wrap my mind around a god with an agenda. Something as all powerfull as a god would have no need for an agenda. And having an agenda that required the absolute devotion of a lower being upon threat of eternal damnation is manipulative and narcisistic.

Funny that you leave out the fact that God still gives us the grace of Eternal paradise, answers our prayers, and leads us always.

He loved us enough to send his son to die on a cross for our sins.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Funny that you leave out the fact that God still gives us the grace of Eternal paradise
Unproven.
answers our prayers
One of the reasons I left Christianity a few years ago was the fact that praying never seemed to do a damned bit of good.
and leads us always
Pretty crappy leader to have allowed me to make "the wrong choice", eh?
He loved us enough to send his son to die on a cross for our sins.
We all are sons of daughters of God, right? Therefore, he killed indeed many of his children out of pure spite, not just Jesus, according to the Bible. Many times, in fact. Sodom and Gomorrah, killing all the firstborn in Egypt, and ordering Levi's sons to kill a bunch of people*. And that's just in the first two books!

* God is also telling Levi's sons to ignore the Ten Commandments as well. INCONSISTENCY!

He loved us enough to send his son to die on a cross for our sins.

I still cannot get over this idea. I think it is sick. Who would do that? Wasn't there another way? A brutal tortuous end to his son's life, and you are THANKFUL for that? What a thing to base a religion around.

Sure :rolleyes:

Originally posted by creetwins
I still cannot get over this idea. I think it is sick. Who would do that? Wasn't there another way? A brutal tortuous end to his son's life, and you are THANKFUL for that? What a thing to base a religion around.

Sure :rolleyes:

Thankfully, we do not know and sometimes understand the will of God.

I know we have used this comparison before, but its the same principle as someone being tortures in war for your safty. You honor him...but when it is somone dying for your sins...you just say its sick and twisted and blah blah blah.

Apparantly he didn't love his son very much.

Its kinda like Saddam saying "I would gladly sacrifice all of my sons in order to defeat US opression!"

I know we have used this comparison before, but its the same principle as someone being tortures in war for your safty. You honor him...but when it is somone dying for your sins...you just say its sick and twisted and blah blah blah.

Nah, I think that is pretty sick too.

So I guess you refuse to honor them too, because of a weak stomach?

Get real. :rolleyes:

So I guess you refuse to honor them too, because of a weak stomach?

Now you are just being stupid. Not a weak stomach, but a belief that war is wrong, especially for religious reasons.

I pity them and the pain their families go through. And what ever gets solved. Soldiers are a renewable resourse in the eyes of the govmnt.

Please get off your soapbox and come back to reality.

We are talking about someone dying so that you dont have to. So you refuse to honor them because they undergo pain and sadness?

What a great way to stand up. On 2nd thought....maybe you do need a soapbox.

Please get off your soapbox and come back to reality.
We are talking about someone dying so that you dont have to. So you refuse to honor them because they undergo pain and sadness?

What a great way to stand up. On 2nd thought....maybe you do need a soapbox.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What the hell is wrong with you. What soapbox. What do you mean refuse to honor them. I do not support war. I think the idea of a heavenly father scarificing his own son, sends a message of horror and fear. I can do this to my own son, imagine what is in store for you if you do not worship me. Sorry just my beliefs. What am I supposed to do, run around all excited that young men and women are being sacrified by your country? NOt for my safety, maybe yours. and i condemn the government that put them in that position.

If anyone needs a reality check, maybe you should look outside your own narrow field of vision, and educate yourself. Not everyone is Christian, and until there is proof beyond a doubt that your beliefs are the rights ones, you have no right to tell anyone theirs are wrong.

cree, :)

Originally posted by creetwins
I pity them and the pain their families go through. And what ever gets solved. Soldiers are a renewable resourse in the eyes of the govmnt.

Unfortunately this is all too true.

Thou shalt not kill. Yet he purposely sent his son to die. And not a quick, easy death, but a horible, torturous death that did not have to happen. Understand, god is supposed to be all powerfull. He didn't need to make us sinfull. He didn't need to send his son down to be tortured to save us. He shouldn't need to be revered and honored. He shouldn't need to make humans and the earth so he can play with them like tiny little soldiers on a big game board. "I'm bored today, I think I'll throw a series of hurricasnes at Florida". "Boy a few religious wars would be fun to watch". "Let's see how these sinfull little creatures handle an all out jihad." chuckling as he moves the pieces around on the board.

Sick and twisted. Beware who you worship.

Yes Echo, bad things happen, but remember that the Devil was invented to show that God does not do these things. An easy out for logic.

Even though God could destry the Devil at any moment.

Originally posted by creetwins
you have no right to tell anyone theirs (beliefs)
are wrong.
Apparently you think only you have that right.:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Echo2
Beware who you worship

Excellent point. We need to make sure that we worship the one true God. We need to make sure we worship the God whose son voluntarily sacrificed himself to atone for our extreme wickedness.

We need to make sure we are not setting up science, logic, or our own vain imaginations as false gods to worship.

Originally posted by Dan Fassell
Yes Echo, bad things happen, but remember that the Devil was invented to show that God does not do these things.
Wrong as usual, Dan. I've already told you that God is in total control and that these bad things are a natural result of the sin cursed world we live in. What is truly amazing is that so few bad things happen to us, since we all are so incredibly wicked that we deserve God's immediate wrath.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
Excellent point. We need to make sure that we worship the one true God. We need to make sure we worship the God whose son voluntarily sacrificed himself to atone for our extreme wickedness.

How do you intend to make sure of all this?
I've already told you that God is in total control and that these bad things are a natural result of the sin cursed world we live in.

How did we end up in a sin-cursed world?

What is truly amazing is that so few bad things happen to us, since we all are so incredibly wicked that we deserve God's immediate wrath.

You might be "incredibly wicked" Uncool, but plaese don't tell me I am...it really makes you sound like a total nut case.

Wrong as usual, Dan. I've already told you that God is in total control and that these bad things are a natural result of the sin cursed world we live in. What is truly amazing is that so few bad things happen to us, since we all are so incredibly wicked that we deserve God's immediate wrath.
If God is in total control, then he tainted this world, not us. HE caused us to be sinful, HE created evil, HE causes evil, HE is responsible. Therefore he cannot be loving if he is going to create evil in us, and then punish us for what HE put in us. No matter your definition of love, that is not it, no matter your definition of justice, that is not it.

Apparently you think only you have that right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I never said anyone's beliefs were wrong. I may question, I may not understand, I may not agree, but you or I or anyone has no right to tell someone they are wrong.

What is right for me is not for all.
What is right for you is not for all.
I can accept this.
Can you?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
How do you intend to make sure of all this?
I intend to make sure that I am worshiping the God of the Bible by reading the Bible and following, to the best of my ability, the prescription for worship described there.


How did we end up in a sin-cursed world?
God gave the first humans free will to obey him or not. They chose not to obey him. Since then, the world has been cursed by God because of their sin.


You might be "incredibly wicked" Uncool, but plaese don't tell me I am...it really makes you sound like a total nut case.
I don't recall any instance where I told you specifically that you were incredibly wicked. God says that all of humankind is, and that's what I was talking about.

In that instance I was just telling the truth that is in God's word. (See Psalm 14 and Romans 3) If that makes me seem like a nut case to you, then so be it. God's truth is more important to me than your opinion.

Originally posted by creetwins
I never said anyone's beliefs were wrong. I may question, I may not understand, I may not agree, but you or I or anyone has no right to tell someone they are wrong.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. When you called me ignorant, or when you told Jere that Satan only exists in the minds of men who believe him, or when you likened a belief in God to a belief in Santa Claus, I took that as you saying that our beliefs are wrong.

I take the exact opposite tack that you do. If you think my beliefs are wrong, you have the right to say so. However, when you do that, you also have to realize someone may come along and criticize your beliefs as well.

Originally posted by Blibblob
If God is in total control, then he tainted this world, not us. HE caused us to be sinful, HE created evil, HE causes evil, HE is responsible. Therefore he cannot be loving if he is going to create evil in us, and then punish us for what HE put in us. No matter your definition of love, that is not it, no matter your definition of justice, that is not it.

God is in control, however, he gives us free will to make our own decisions. He does not cause us to be sinful, but if we choose to be, he allows us to do that.

When the first humans decided, of their own free will, to disobey God, they subjected the earth to the state that it is in. We are all tainted by that disobedience. However, we cannot complain because we also, of our own free will, choose to disobey God, thus making ourselves eligible to receive His wrath.

Therefore, we cannot say he is unloving, or unjust, because from our very first sin, which we choose to commit of our own free will, we deserve to be punished by Him.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. When you called me ignorant, or when you told Jere that Satan only exists in the minds of men who believe him, or when you likened a belief in God to a belief in Santa Claus, I took that as you saying that our beliefs are wrong.

Am I a wretch or what......:p

Please let me take a few steps back to sort this out. Maybe the intent of my involvement in this discussion is misrepresented. Noones fault but my own. I am not engaging in chats of this sort to prove or disprove anything. I want to know what the draw is for people who hold Cristian beliefs. SO far what I have gotten is that it is in preparation for the afterlife. I hear a lot of "sitting beside jesus in the heavenly kindom", "having a name in the book at the gates" and "eternal paradise" kinds of things. Now what I want to understand is what are you getting out of it now. Why do you like attending church, what kind of feeling does it give you.

So far I have not seen any evidence or examples of Christian people having it any better off than anyone else. You still suffer the same calamaties, illness, accidents, pain, loss and suffering. I don't see any preferred treatment over and above any of the the rest of us. There is no proven reason, that "hey these guys are getting it good, meybe they are on to somehting.

So what is the draw. What is it that you see that gives you the utmost confidence that you are preparing in the correct way for an afterlife.

The only proof and reason anyone has given me reamains speculative to say the least. Which is why i am still trying to understand what it is that gives you an assured result.

Me, I am not sure. That is what maybe makes us different.

I am also under the understading that the idea of an afterlife with loved ones is a comforting thought for preparing one's self of the unsurity and anxiety of death.

Wow, Cree, thanks for your last post. :) I was totally misreading you. Let me try to explain a little about what draws me to Christ, and what makes me think the Bible is true.

First of all, the Bible says that God created this universe and everything in it. This makes sense to me, because as I look around me, it seems absurd that all the intricacies of our universe and world would have happened by a cosmic accident. Someone or something, must've caused it.

The Bible says that God is perfect, loving and just. This appeals to my sense of fairness.

It says that I have obligations to this God. This makes sense to me as well. I would suppose God would've created me for a purpose.

The Bible describes these obligations. When I read them, I realize I've failed to meet these obligations. The ten commandments? I've broken every single one. "You shall not murder" does not simply mean plunging a knife into someone's chest, it also means wishing any ill will toward another. "You shall not commit adultery" also includes looking lustfully at anyone who is not my wife. "You will have no other Gods besides me" also includes putting my family, my job, my money, or my entertainment before God.

Elsewhere in the Bible it says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I wonder if this describes me, and after an honest self-examination, I realize that it does.

Common sense would tell me that a just God would be displeased with my disobedience. He would require some kind of punishment, and as I read the Bible, I see that He does.

I see the punishment and I realize how much trouble I'm in. I realize that there is no way I can please God. I've already blown it. How can I reconcile myself to Him? Is there any way?

Thankfully the answer is "yes". Jesus Christ saw my condition and had pity on me. He went to His Father and said, "I see UnCoolDuck. I know you are perfect and just, and demand that UnCoolDuck offer a perfect sacrifice to atone for his wickedness. I also know that since UnCoolDuck is already tainted by his own disobedience, that he will never be able to offer a perfect sacrifice and will, therefore, have to suffer your wrath forever, never being able to fully atone for his sin."

The Father agreed that all this was true.

Then, Jesus, being perfect Himself, offered to empty himself of his glory, come to earth, live a sinless life among us, and then to offer Himself up as a perfect sacrifice to atone for my wickedness in my place so that I would not have to.

And that's exactly what He did.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're all trying to make ourselves right with God.

Atheists do it by just denying He exists, thus eliminating the need. This doesn't work for me, because there's just too much evidence that shows that at least some kind of God exists.

Most people I know do it by trying to be a good person. They figure, if they are good enough, God will see how good they've been and let them slide. This doesn't make sense to me either. God is so far above us that it makes sense to me that his standards would be unattainably high, and that I'd never be good enough to be acceptable to Him.

Christians do it by relying on Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for them. That works for me. I can't make myself acceptable to God, but His own Son can and offers to do so. So, I rely on Him.

So, for me, that's the draw, and I thank you for asking.:)

God is in control, however, he gives us free will to make our own decisions. He does not cause us to be sinful, but if we choose to be, he allows us to do that.
Yes, god gave us free will. He knew what was going to happen. He knew Adam and Eve were going to eat it. He said specifically to not eat that one and only one plant. Why put it there in the first place? He knew they were going to eat it, and what was going to happen. He chose to have it that way. There cannot be free will with omniprecience. God knows what's going to happen, he is entirely responsible for setting it up that way, way back in the begining.

I see the punishment and I realize how much trouble I'm in. I realize that there is no way I can please God. I've already blown it. How can I reconcile myself to Him? Is there any way?

I want to ask you if there was any one defining moment when you saw this. Did you ever experience any spiritual epiphany, feel a vibe, or the spirit that led you to follow this particular path? Do you ever feel God guiding you?

Thankfully the answer is "yes". Jesus Christ saw my condition and had pity on me. He went to His Father and said, "I see UnCoolDuck. I know you are perfect and just, and demand that UnCoolDuck offer a perfect sacrifice to atone for his wickedness. I also know that since UnCoolDuck is already tainted by his own disobedience, that he will never be able to offer a perfect sacrifice and will, therefore, have to suffer your wrath forever, never being able to fully atone for his sin."

Even though Jesus has done this for you, as you say here, do you still feel accountability and responsibilty to seek atonement during your lifetime? Does it count for anything in God's eyes? I just wonder that if only Jesus is good enough to heal your sins, is there still a motivation to search and listen to god's messages and learn what lessons are offered to you, and strive and aim towards betterment of the soul?

Does God only speak to people through the bible?

Does he speak to non Christians too, maybe in different ways? Ways perhaps there are no words or language to write down, contain and bind in a Book alone? Maybe God speaks a language that can be known to all, in a rhythm familiar to anyone, that transcends language and culture. Maybe the answers are simpler than everyone would like to make it, and more common to everyone than most might accept.





I take the exact opposite tack that you do. If you think my beliefs are wrong, you have the right to say so. However, when you do that, you also have to realize someone may come along and criticize your beliefs as well.

I don't know if I've ever been asked to disclose my beliefs, or describe the relationship I experience with the Creator. Most assume that I am "science all the way" and in parts I am, but I can know God too. And for reasons, I am hesitant becauese I don't think it is nice for other people to tell me that my efforts to know GOd are futile, because I don't follow certain ceremonies or rituals or prayers.

THere have been assumptions made about me, that I am an atheist, or agnostic, and in some places I have been called worse, so when I hear refernces made to non christians going to hell, it hurts my feelings, and I second guess showing my viewpoint, cause it is different than what is known by most i feel I'm not taken seriously. Sooooooo I am just asking questions to see if the things you experience when practicing your religion have any similarities to those practiced by ohther cultures?

Originally posted by Blibblob
Yes, god gave us free will. He knew what was going to happen. He knew Adam and Eve were going to eat it. He said specifically to not eat that one and only one plant. Why put it there in the first place? He knew they were going to eat it, and what was going to happen. He chose to have it that way. There cannot be free will with omniprecience. God knows what's going to happen, he is entirely responsible for setting it up that way, way back in the begining.
I don't have too much of a problem with this, except your assertion that free will and omniprescience are mutually exclusive. Just because God knows we will sin does not absolve us of the responsibility of sinning. I sin because I want to and only I am to blame.

Your post brings up the question: "Why did God set it up this way? Why didn't He just make us all perfect and be done with it?"

I don't really know the answer to this. I suspect that God set up the universe in the way He has to demonstrate His various attributes. He is merciful, loving, and kind, yet he can also demonstrate anger, and is perfectly just and punishes wrongdoing. I know a God who punishes sin is a bitter pill for some to swallow. However, God is the creator. He set up the program. He has provided an escape from His wrath, and I'd much rather take that escape than criticize God for allowing me to sin.

Originally posted by creetwins
I want to ask you if there was any one defining moment when you saw this. Did you ever experience any spiritual epiphany, feel a vibe, or the spirit that led you to follow this particular path? Do you ever feel God guiding you?
I never had an epiphany. I came to the conclusion that the Bible was true over many years of study and self-examination. There was a point, however, when I made the decision that I was going to follow it for the rest of my life, but this was only after many years of struggling with it. I can't say I actually feel God guiding me at any particular moment. Usually I can look back on certain events and see that He has.

Even though Jesus has done this for you, as you say here, do you still feel accountability and responsibilty to seek atonement during your lifetime? Does it count for anything in God's eyes? I just wonder that if only Jesus is good enough to heal your sins, is there still a motivation to search and listen to god's messages and learn what lessons are offered to you, and strive and aim towards betterment of the soul?
The Bible tells us to constantly examine ourselves to make sure we are of the faith. I cannot merit God's favor by any work that I do, however, if I truly love Jesus and am truly following Him as my King and savior, I should be able to see evidence in my life that I am becoming more obedient to Him. If this is not the case, I must ask myself if I really love Jesus, or if I'm just faking it. So, yes, there is a life long process by which we continually strive to become more obedient to God, but this is out of a desire to be more obedient, not out of a method to try to gain God's favor.

Does God only speak to people through the bible?
Does he speak to non Christians too, maybe in different ways? Ways perhaps there are no words or language to write down, contain and bind in a Book alone? Maybe God speaks a language that can be known to all, in a rhythm familiar to anyone, that transcends language and culture. Maybe the answers are simpler than everyone would like to make it, and more common to everyone than most might accept.
God also manifests Himself through the various workings in nature that we can all see. Wiccans, in particular, understand this very well. But they are only getting a part of the story. To fully understand everything God wants us to know about Him, and His plan for us, we must go to the Bible.

With regards to your last comment: When I said that "I take the exact opposite tack that you do" I was referring to free speech rights. Many times in these forums, I've seen people talk about how they wish politicians wouldn't talk about their faith, or Christians should keep their faith private, or that no one should be able to tell someone else they're wrong.

I disagree with all of this. I believe that everyone should be able to talk about their beliefs: Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever. If an atheist thinks I'm wrong, he should be able to say it. If a politician is a Hindu, and wants to make that an issue in his campaign, he should be able to do it. Then the voters can decide if they like that or not. That's what I was talking about.