what we have in Iraq is a contest of wills. The al qeada terrorists running the insurgency in Iraq know that americans have no stomach for loss, a lesson they learned quite well on Oct 3, 1993 during the black hawk down incident in Mogadishu. they killed some of us (yes, al qeada was behind he 0ct 3 incident) and our lilly livered CIC decided to pull out, wouldnt want those poll numbers to drop would we? well that sent teh wrong message to al qeada, and since then the attacks have intensified with little or no reprecussions on them. Now that we are fighting these guys again in Iraq, and our resolve is strong, they are a little uneasy. we should ahve cut and run by now. we havent. The liberals lost their will to fight a long time ago, but bush hasnt. kerry cant make p his mind. the enemy has a very stong will, and we must too if we ever wnat to live in security again. WE all seem to forget the stakes involved here. if we pull out now, or show weakness at all, its over for us as a nation.

can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs...thats for sure. Dems want to have their cake and eat it too.

Yes trav, but since we are in this thing, seems to me that we should hit it 100 % and get it over and our guys home.

I agree dan, we need to stop playing softball with these clowns, we need one decisive stroke and end it. I hear that thre is a big offensive planned for after the election. It is sad and pathetic tha Bush is putting his politics before victory over these scumbag terrorists, but it appears that what he is doing. we need to hit them NOW, not after some arbitrary date. I think it is wrong and dangerous to be playing politics ina ny war, especially this one.

you cant hit what you cant see !!! these guys dont have a particular way of dressing, they look like the civilians ! so....from that, are you suggesting that we just bomb the whole country and call it a day ! its either that or do what they are doing. why dont you tell your boy bush that he needs to step it up......i9'll tell you why, he dont know what to do either !@!! you see, he thought he'd get the white flags like his father did........look , there is no answer to this, we will be there for life, whether you wanna believe it or not .

so you are saying wea re beaten?

Originally posted by Travh20
so you are saying wea re beaten? never that ! but this will be a war of attrition. we will lose a lot of people, by this wars standards ( meaning we are gonna lose a lot more than we should have lost for this war ) but they will also. we will not quit, they will not quit. and because alquaida is not a country, but a movement, we can expect more and more people to join in, because the more we kill, the more we're gonna kill someone who's family wasnt against us until we killed their family member. this cycle will never end. even over there, we stand the risk of turning what few friends we may have had, into enemies

Originally posted by Travh20
so you are saying wea re beaten?

We were beaten before we went in. We can subjugate these people with force, we can even occupy and control their country for decades. We can bomb the hell out of them or hand the entire mess to them and leave right now. It really doesn't matter what we do because untill we win the hearts and minds of the insurgents they will keep fighting, and their sons will keep fighting, and their sons will keep fighting, and their sons will keep fighting. Look at history.

This is not a war of territory. It is a war of ideaology. We can no sooner change their outlook on the world as they could change ours. These are religious zealots. Anyone who has argued religion on this board can attest that their is no reasoning with religious zealots. They believe what they believe, support their beliefs with interprtations of their scriptures and don't want to be bothered with logic or common sense.

You cannot argue with someones faith. You cannot force someone to give up their faith. You cannot make them alter or change their faith. Untill our leaders accept this we will be in this quagmire.

Unfortunately the same thing is true about Al Quida. dubbyas war on terrorism sounds great and makes us feel that we are strong and defending ourselfs. But the bottom line is that it is a war on idealogy. Idealogical wars are not won with tanks and guns. The best we can do is to keep them on the run in the world and away from our boarders. We will never entirely defeat them.

gr8 post echo.....sounds about right

no one is trying to stop them from being muslim. let me ask you this echo, do you have faith in anything at all?

Originally posted by Travh20
no one is trying to stop them from being muslim. let me ask you this echo, do you have faith in anything at all? Good luck getting the answer to that question Travh. I've asked the same thing twice and Echo chose not to respond.

They can be muslim all they want......but if they do bad things then the police will come after them. Unfortunately the U.S. is the nation that has to police the world the most

Originally posted by Travh20
no one is trying to stop them from being muslim. let me ask you this echo, do you have faith in anything at all?

Trav, I don't think you understand. Not all muslims are insurgents or terrorists, but the insurgents and terrorists actions are based on their personal interpretation of muslim scripture.

Here is an example. Not all Christians are nut cases that commit mass suicide and kill their children, but all the people in Jim Jones little group that killed themselves and their children in South America were christian and they based their actions on their specific interpretation of christian scripture.

It isn't the muslim religion that makes these people kill. Just as it wasn't the christian religion that made Jim Jones followers kill. It is their specific interpretaion of scripture.

If you are asking if I have theological beliefs - yes, I do. I am a Taoist. Taoism has no god. So if you are asking if I believe in an almighty being - the answer is no. However I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school so I am well versed in the christian doctrine and scriptures.