I wonder this because....

I have been following the story about that Aron fellow who was pinned by a rock in a canyon for 6 nights. He was short on water and food, and still mustered the gumption to break and cut off his arm to save himself. His will and spirit to live overcame any fear he had.

I have seen many other species of animal do this when snared on trapline. Mink, fox, weasel, even wolf.

Is this spirit and will to live a deeply primal animal instict?

I don't see much difference between what Aron did, and the animals. I don't think we can deny what we are.

Absolutely.

We are all beings made by God. God was with Aaron in that canyon, and he sheltered him, gave him strength even through days without water.

Another miracle performed by God.

that's funny, I don't think God was there to lift that boulder to save his arm? No , God mad him wait 6 days, still didn't do any thing so the poor kid had to save HIMSELF!!!!!

Aron should be thankful he had the balls to do it.......

He should be thankful, that his constant prayers were answered.

He should be thankful that God gave him the intelligence and will do what he did.

How do you know there might not have been a reason for what happened? How do you know that if it hadnt happened, he may have developed life threatening cancer in that arm? Or how do you know that if he had moved the rock, it wouldnt have fell on someone else and killed them instantly?

Who are we to question God? We know not compared to anything he does. He knows whats best, and his will provides whats best.

yah, if that were me that's what I'd be saying:rolleyes:

It was what's best.

seems more like god sending him a message, "here's what ya get for exploring alone, let's see ya get out of this one......."not you were gonna get cancer anyway......

Now I think that post was a poor excuse to make something good into something bad.

You must not have a very optimistic attitude.

Now I think that post was a poor excuse to make something good into something bad.

That post was only one of many ways you can look at it, a mere example.



You must not have a very optimistic attitude.

Wrong again. When i was watching this fellow's account of his experience on the 2 hr dateline special , I was so moved to the point of tears. By empathizing with him and projecting myself to that dark place he was in, I felt his desperation, his fright, his feeling of being completely alone, and trapped. His realization that he alone got himself in this mess, he alone would get himself out. THe moment he described his freedom from that place I felt his triumph and feeling of rebirth, and hope, and the power of life he had to keep him going. It was the truest sense of inspiration I have felt in A long time. THe power within ones self to take charge and make changes instead of waiting for divine intervention is being accountable and responsible for ones fate and destiny. Truly empowering to know the strength of the human animal spirit.

These are all feelings I have had in my life. I have felt cornered, trapped alone desperate, and scared. I took responsibiliy for the situations I had placed myself in to feel this way. I made the changes, and now my life is bright and full of hope. Seeing these things manifested to the extreme in this man's story reminded me that I am a resiliant resourseful animal.

So during this time, did it offend you, or did you find it offensive when he talked about praying to God?

When he told Tom Brokaw that he had never felt so close to Christ?

You said, that it was all him, and he wasnt waiting on any devine intervention, so why did he pray? Do you think that Aaron thought he would get himself out? Or do you think as he was praying he was putting his trust in God?

He prayed because when people are in a life or death situation and they see no way out they will fall back on anything, and I meen anything, to live. Magic, lies, religious doctrine, promises to the universe, you name it. What goes thru the mind is amazing. Remember he was trapped, without food or water and so no way out. His mind was hazy and he was in and out of consciousness.

When I was in a similar position, I did a lot more than pray to the christian god. I did a lot of promising to the universe and whatever entity runs things and anything else my mind could conjur up. One does not think logically when in that sort of situation. They cry, they beg, the pray, they barter with the devil - whatever it takes to survive.

Its a good thing Aaron has more faith than you Echo.

He knows that there is no way he could have lived out there without the protection of God. God blessed him, gave him the strenth, to live, even though he didnt have water for nearly a week.

God was with him in that canyon, and he saved his life.



You know whats funny, after losing an arm, he is still a happier person than you Echo.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Its a good thing Aaron has more faith than you Echo.

He knows that there is no way he could have lived out there without the protection of God. God blessed him, gave him the strenth, to live, even though he didnt have water for nearly a week.

God was with him in that canyon, and he saved his life.

You know whats funny, after losing an arm, he is still a happier person than you Echo.

You demean his heroics when you give god the credit for saving him. That man saved himself because he was a strong individual.

Jerejere - I am a very happy person with a wonderfull life. I am a bit depressed right now because I recently lost my husand but I am by no means an unhappy person. Your judgement of me (with no firsthand knowledge of me and my life and how I live) is so typical of christians. You assume that I must be unhappy because I don't recognize your religious beliefs as valid. Typical condescending christian attitude.

Originally posted by Echo2
You demean his heroics when you give god the credit for saving him. That man saved himself because he was a strong individual.

It takes nothing away from him. He did the right thing in trusting in God. He got out of there, because God showed mercry on him.

Jerejere - I am a very happy person with a wonderfull life. I am a bit depressed right now because I recently lost my husand but I am by no means an unhappy person. Your judgement of me (with no firsthand knowledge of me and my life and how I live) is so typical of christians. You assume that I must be unhappy because I don't recognize your religious beliefs as valid. Typical condescending christian attitude.

All I know, is that I have never read one, (ONE), post from you that had the smallest hint of happiness in it.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
All I know, is that I have never read one, (ONE), post from you that had the smallest hint of happiness in it. [/B]

I've only posted about political and religious issues (with the exception of when my husband died). I am amazed that you could evaluate my life and mental status from my posts. Where did you say you got your Psychology degree from?

OK, just for you jerejere because for some odd reason I like you.....

Today is a beautiful day.

I have a beautifull, intellegent 25 year old daughter that is healthy and successfull.
I am healthy.
My three brothers are healthy.
I have a very close and loving family and we do a lot of fun stuff together. (Going sailing this weekend).
I have a great job that I love doing and pays well.
I am learning to play the piano at 50 years of age - something I have always wanted to do.

Life is good. I am sad about my husband but he is out of pain now. I am moving on. Life is good for me. It has sometimes been better, it has sometimes been worse. It has ALWAYS been interesting.

Thanks, Echo.

For what its worth, I took AP Psychology last semester :D.

Just out of curiosity, did you ever believe? Did something happen to change it, or have you always been an unbeliever?

I was raised in a very Catholic family and went to Catholic school thru 8th grade.

Christianity never made sense to me. It contradicted itself, it was illogical and there was no evidence.

The most difficult thing I had a problem with was the idea of a higher power with an agenda. The concept of an all powerfull god having an agenda just doesn't add up.

And I realized at a very young age that I was being coerced by religion. If I did not act in a certain way I was going to go to hell and burn for eternity.

I also came to realize that few people who "believe" think for themselves. They believe they are, but every thought and action they have or do is influenced by their specific religions interpretation of scripture.

I tried as a young child to believe. I prayed and prayed and prayed. But I always felt coerced because I was taught that if I didn't pray and believe I would suffer eternal torment. (From the so called loving god).

I posted this a couple months ago. It might explain how I feel.....

I believe that religion disconnects people from their personal conscience and their humanity. Instead of looking within themselves and to their conscience for answers they turn to interpretation of scripture (either their own or someone else’s). I believe that people who are taught this practice loose their connection to their own personal conscience and their connection to the world and other living beings, they loose their humanity.

I give the example of how the priests who covered up for the child molesters (not the ones that did it, but the ones that covered it up) turned to their church for answers rather than their conscience. These men were probably very honorable, good and loving men. But rather than look to their personal conscience, they turned to their church. Some other examples would be people who kill for their religious convictions, and people who hate for their religious convictions. These are obvious extreme examples and not everyone carries it to that degree. Some just simply cripple themselves in life and ostracize others by their behavior. Like the poor soul who spouts religion at every ebb in a conversation. These people are quite obviously disconnected from their humanity. They couldn’t listen to their own personal conscience and come to a moral conclusion if their life depended on it. Everything in their life, every moral decision, every interaction with other people is a direct result of interpretation of scripture. Their answer for why they believe something is right or wrong is “because the bible says so in So-and-so 12:62”.

I believe that children need to be taught that doing good is its own reward; that we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. We do not do good because we want to save ourselves from everlasting torment after death or because we want to spend eternity with whatever entity we pray to.

Children need to be taught to look to themselves for answers to listen to their own personal conscience and not to some ancient book of scriptures. When we look to ourselves and our conscience for answers, we connect with our humanity and the world around us. We take a personal responsibility for our moral decisions and actions. We take a certain stand because we used sequential thought process and our conscience and we came to a conclusion. We are able to back that stand up with our own personal reasons for taking it, and because it is OUR decision, we are also able to re-evaluate that stand and alter it if we find we are wrong. People who turn to a religion for a decision on what stand to take, can seldom back it up with solid reasons and explain their thought process and how they came to that decision, instead they spout scripture. Sometimes not even understanding the words they are spouting. Also, people who turn to religion for a decision on what stand to take are seldom willing to re-evaluate that decision because religious doctrines almost always teaches not to question, just to go on faith. However, having faith demands that we sublimate logic.

Obviously because we are dealing with people there are differing levels of loss of humanity and personal conscience. Some people are on the other end of the spectrum from the extreme examples I gave above. They do not follow all of their churches teachings to the letter. They turn to it for some things, and not for others. Some of their moral conclusions are their own. And many have not completely lost the ability to connect to their conscience, take responsibility for their conclusions, support them without scripture and even re-evaluate them when they feel the need. Something their Church’s would not approve of.

So it isn’t the dogma that religions teach that I find evil. It is the insipient way they take away an individuals connection to their conscience, slowly taking over the person's life until they have little or no connection to their humanity and the world around them other than through that particular religious doctrine.

Originally posted by Echo2
You demean his heroics when you give god the credit for saving him. That man saved himself because he was a strong individual.

To God be all the glory and praise.

Echo,

It isnt as hard and illogical to believe as you lead yourself to think.

Is it any less illogical for you to believe yourself right, rather than believe in God? I mean if you are wrong, and God forbid, go to hell, than you will eternally pay for making the wrong decision. Would you feel comfortable saying that you wouldnt regret it?

Originally posted by Echo2
I also came to realize that few people who "believe" think for themselves. They believe they are, but every thought and action they have or do is influenced by their specific religions interpretation of scripture.

I can understand where you are coming from - this statement is absolutely correct because it is what one chooses to base ones life on. For me the life and teachings of Jesus Christ is what influences my whole being. By the way this in no way means I cannot think for myself - quite the contrary - it affirms to a greater extent that I have the capability (A God given one) through the grace of God to arrive after much thought to the conclusion that the moral values taught by Jesus Christ is indeed the greatest the world has ever seen - in my opinion. Where else can you find such great wisdom like that found in the Word of God.

What about you - what influences your life and your thinking. What great philosopher or teacher inspires and influences your thought paterns?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Echo,

It isnt as hard and illogical to believe as you lead yourself to think.

Is it any less illogical for you to believe yourself right, rather than believe in God? I mean if you are wrong, and God forbid, go to hell, than you will eternally pay for making the wrong decision. Would you feel comfortable saying that you wouldnt regret it?

LOL - jerejere, if I go to hell it will meen two things.
1) that I was right, your god isn't loving...and
2) That there will be more room for you.

Heres a question. If a person lives an honest, decent, law abiding life. Is charitable and loving to other humans. Is good to animals and the environment. Lives within the boundaries of the comandments but doesn't believe in god will they go to hell and suffer eternal damnation?

Originally posted by Echo2

Heres a question. If a person lives an honest, decent, law abiding life. Is charitable and loving to other humans. Is good to animals and the environment. Lives within the boundaries of the comandments but doesn't believe in god will they go to hell and suffer eternal damnation?

Moot. No person lives an honest, decent, law abiding life. If a person "doesn't believe in god" they have already lived life outside the "boundaries of the commandments" and are accountable to god for this crime against him.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
Moot. No person lives an honest, decent, law abiding life. If a person "doesn't believe in god" they have already lived life outside the "boundaries of the commandments" and are accountable to god for this crime against him.

Cool, then when I get to be 80 and have only a short time left here on earth I can murder and kill and cause mayhem because I am already doomed to an eternity in hell. I might as well take down the people who have done me wrong in this life since I will have no chance at redemtion. - sarcasm off.

You have been drinking too much kool-aid.

Originally posted by Echo2
I am a very happy person

Originally posted by Echo2
Cool, then when I get to be 80 and have only a short time left here on earth I can murder and kill and cause mayhem because I am already doomed to an eternity in hell. I might as well take down the people who have done me wrong in this life since I will have no chance at redemtion.

:confused:

Originally posted by the very happy person
You have been drinking too much kool-aid.

Lately I've been drinking this stuff called Crystal Clear. Does that count?:)

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
:Lately I've been drinking this stuff called Crystal Clear. Does that count?:)

Oly if you add some vodka to it. lol

Originally posted by Echo2
Since I will have no chance at redemtion. - sarcasm off.


That is very wrong Echo.

You will never be out of the arm of God's grace. God will save you rather you were brought up in his teachings from infancy or if you accept him on your death bed.

There was a man who lived beside our church who was the cussingest, fightingest, loud mouth youd ever meet. Well when the cancer struck him, he started to put things into perspective. And on Easter Sunday, 6 days before he died, he prayed one the prettiest prayers Ive ever heard.

He said,

"Father, come into my heart, so I can come into your home."

He was well into his 80's, and Christ still saved him. Its never too late.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

He was well into his 80's, and Christ still saved him. Its never too late.

Interesting how you "know" he was saved.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
"Father, come into my heart, so I can come into your home."


I said the same thing some 7 years ago - oh how wonderful the grace of God.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Interesting how you "know" he was saved.

More importantly is how "he" knew he was saved. Heres the assurance of his salvation:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13)

The truth is that no one KNOWS they are saved. They have FAITH that they are saved. Because thay have FAITH in their god.

One can have absolute FAITH in something that is unproven. But one cannot have absolute KNOWLEDGE of something that is unproven.

A BELIEF is not an absolute. However one can believe that their faith is absolute.

Originally posted by 4MAWEARS
More importantly is how "he" knew he was saved. Heres the assurance of his salvation:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13)

What about a child born in the deepest depths of Africa that dies before she has ever heard the word of God or told that God exists? Is this child doomed to an eternity in hell?

Originally posted by Echo2
The truth is that no one KNOWS they are saved. They have FAITH that they are saved. Because thay have FAITH in their god.


Your not wrong there.

"For by Grace you have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift og God". (Ephesians 1:8)

Originally posted by 4MAWEARS
Your not wrong there.

"For by Grace you have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift og God". (Ephesians 1:8)

But you are going on faith that the bible is true and that god exists.

One can have absolute FAITH in something that is unproven. But one cannot have absolute KNOWLEDGE of something that is unproven.

A BELIEF is not an absolute. However one can believe that their faith is absolute.

Semantics.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
What about a child born in the deepest depths of Africa that dies before she has ever heard the word of God or told that God exists? Is this child doomed to an eternity in hell?

No I do not believe so. Hell is reserved for those who have heard the truth and after hearing it have made a concious decision to reject it. Although there is nothing specific in the Bible that deals with salvation for children (not that I know of) I believe that there is a special grace that allows children into the Kingdom of God.

Deuteronomy chapter one is the clearest teaching on this issue. The children of Israel were forbidden to enter the promised land because of their unbelief. Yet, God says that the children not knowing good from evil shall enter in.

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it,"

It would therefore logically follow that children who have not reached what is commonly called the age of accountability, meaning the time that a child knows the difference between good and evil - would enter the Kingdom of God if they die.

Originally posted by Echo2
But you are going on faith that the bible is true and that god exists. One can have absolute FAITH in something that is unproven. But one cannot have absolute KNOWLEDGE of something that is unproven. A BELIEF is not an absolute. However one can believe that their faith is absolute. Semantics.

I have to disagree. I guess this is essentially what seperates us and that is why I am a believer and you are not. You seek evidence to prove the existence of God (of which it is all around you - but you credit evolution for it) and I seek God to prove my existence (if that makes any sense). All I can offer you is what scripture says about faith:

"Now FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)

"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible". (Hebrews 11:3)

I have to agree with Echo. I have faith that God exists, but I can't prove it. Which doesn't particularly bother me.

For 4mawears and echo regarding the issue of children salvation.

There is an issue of age of countability whereas if you are not old enough to know what you do is sin, you are not held accountable for it.

I think this goes for mentally ill people that dont understand what sins they commit as well.