It is interesting to me that the authors of the Christian Bible invented one that would come against Christianity so that followers would be ever vigilant for anyone that spoke against their religion.
The phrase Anti-Christ has come to mean someone that would destroy humanity not just the Christian faith.

My belief is that someone that could destroy mans-religions would not destroy humanity but would save it.
No longer would man be pitted against man solely on religious beliefs as has been, and still occurs to this day.

Consider the death and destruction of religious beliefs.
Would an anti-Christian faith really be bad or good?

Could be that mans expanding intellect and technology will be the real anti-Christ.

The Anti-Christ will be a person who will fulfill certian prophecies.

He will come from Europe. He will set up his temple in the middle East (I have seen scholars say Iraq), he will raise from the dead, he will assume worldly control, he will form a world religion, a world economic system, and so fourth.


The smallest hint that this will be good is rediculous. He will systematically kill off the worlds population that is left after the rapture. He will make it impossible to buy anything unless you take his mark, which in return gives you to the devil.

Nothing about the anti-christ will be good.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
He will come from Europe. He will set up his temple in the middle East (I have seen scholars say Iraq), he will raise from the dead, he will assume worldly control, he will form a world religion, a world economic system, and so fourth.


How do you know this exactly?

Very specific. Hey, can that thing pick lottery numbers?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Very specific. Hey, can that thing pick lottery numbers?

"And the Lord said, 'play the numbers corresponding to the birthdays of your progeny, excepting that the Powerball be the date of thy father's birth. Play not thou scratch off tickets, for they are evil in my sight and quite a rip-off too.'"

The Bible says, Lionel, not to add nor take away from its scriptures....that would include making them up like you just did.


Also, heres an answer to your question about how do I know the antichrist will be a man.

46 Prophecies the Antichrist will fulfill

1. The antichrist will be a man - Daniel 7:24-25
2. He will confirm a covenant for 7 years - Daniel 9:27
Now also, this does not mean that he creates this covenant. The word here for "confirm" is 1396 gabar (gaw-bar'); a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently: KJV-- exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant. The antichrist will strengthen a covenant for a 7 year time span. Now this could be an existing covenant (like the Jerusalem Covenant) or a new covenant drawn up at that time.
3. He will rise among 10 kings - Daniel 7:8
This 10 nation union will be a revived Holy Roman Empire - Daniel 2:44
4. He will uproot 3 kings from the original 10 kings to gain political power - Daniel 7:8
5. His 10 nation union will merge into a world government which he will dominate - Revelations 13:1-2
Now this also, could refer to several things. First, the 10 nations could merge into an EXISTING world government, such as the U.N. Or it could for a new world government, much like the U.N. Or, this 10 nation confederation could be something like the new 10 nation common stock market. A union like this would definitely rule the world, without having a "seat" of power. Whoever controls the money, controls the globe.
6. He will ascend to power on a platform of peace. By peace, he will destroy many - Daniel 8:25
7. He will be promoted and exalted by a miracle working religious partner (false prophet) - Revelations 13:11-12
8. He was, and is not, and yet is - Revelations 17:8
More than likely this is referring to political power. The antichrist will have ruled, but then be taken out of power. Only to rise back up again to power as the head of the One World Government.
9. The world government over which he rules will be a red (communistic or socialistic) government - Revelations 17:14
10. The antichrist will be preceded by 7 kings or rulers. He will be the 8th king. He will also be "of" the 7 - Revelations 17:11
Now this scripture has many different ways it can be viewed. The word "goeth" in the scripture is 5217 hupago (hoop-ag'-o); from 5259 and 71; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or figuratively: KJV-- depart, get hence, go (a-) way. So we see that he will withdraw or retire from sight. But will rise back up again to power. Now this could be taken as to mean 7 kings. Or this could be taken as 7 World Governments that have ruled. So far there have been 6. 1. Egypt. 2. Assyria. 3. Babylon. 4. Medo-Persia. 5. Greece. 6. Rome
11. He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8
12. His look will be more stout than his fellows - Daniel 7:20
The word "stout" means 7227 rab (rab); by contracted from 7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality): KJV-- (in) abound (-undance, -ant, -antly), captain, elder, enough, exceedingly, full, great (-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, [time]), (do, have) many (-ifold, things, a time), ([ship-]) master, mighty, more, (too, very) much, multiply (-tude), officer, often [-times], plenteous, populous, prince, process [of time], suffice (-lent). So this can have several meanings. It could mean one of the following: the antichrist will be larger in size than everybody else, will be older than everybody else, will have more of a "following" than anybody else, is a higher military or political rank than anybody else, or is more qualified than anybody else. What ever this verse is speaking about, it is obvious when you look at him.
13. He will have a fierce countenance - Daniel 8:23
14. He will understand puzzling things - Daniel 8:23
15. He will cause craft to prosper - Daniel 8:25
It is interesting to note the definition of the word "craft" here. It is 4820 mirmah (meer-maw'); from 7411 in the sense of deceiving; fraud: KJV-- craft, deceit (-ful, -fully), false, feigned, guile, subtilly, treachery. No wonder, for the Bible says that he is the father of lies. So his policy or his success will make it possible for his deception of the world to prosper. God said that if you do not believe the truth, that he would send strong delusion that you should believe a lie.
16. He apparently assumes world dominating power 3 1/2 years after he confirms the covenant. He then will continue to reign for 42 months - Revelations 13:5
17. The Abomination of Desolation is the event that signals the beginning of this final 42 months - Daniel 9:27
It is interesting to note, that many scholars believe that at the Abomination of Desolation is when Revelations 12:7-10 occurs. At which point the Antichrist becomes "possessed" by Satan himself and then forces the Mark or death upon everybody.
18. He opposes God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
19. He will speak marvelous things against the God of gods - Daniel 11:36
20. He will exalt himself above all that is called God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
21. He will sit in the temple of God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
22. He will claim to be God (or an incarnation of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:4
23. He will take away the daily sacrifices from the temple - Daniel 11:31
24. He will plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain - Daniel 11:45
It would seem here that the Antichrist will setup small "fortifications" in between the sea and Jerusalem, to help keep control over things in distant areas away from the main offices.
25. He will have power to make war with the saints and to overcome them - Revelations 13:7
26. He will continue this war with the saints for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:21, 25
27. This time of Great Tribulation is launched upon the Earth by the antichrist at the Abomination of Desolation. - Matthew 24:15,21.
Up until this time, it would seem that he is a man of peace and not war. But now he shows his true colors. Perhaps is possessed by Satan himself at this point as well. Which would account for the false front being dropped at this time.
28. During this time, the antichrist will scatter the power of the holy people - Daniel 12:7
29. He will rule a mighty and strong kingdom - Daniel 7:7
30. He was given power over all kindreds, tongues and nations - Revelations 13:7
31. His kingdom will devour the whole earth - Daniel 7:23
32. He will have great military power that will stand behind him, to enforce his laws - Daniel 11:31
33. He will try to change times and laws; and they will be given into his power for 3 1/2 years - Daniel 7:25
34. He will give great honor to the God of forces, with gold, silver, jewels, etc - Daniel 11:38
35. He will prosper in everything that he does - Daniel 8:24
36. He will not regard the God of his fathers - Daniel 11:37
37. He will not regard the desire of women - Daniel 11:37
It is interesting to note here that most people think that he will be a homosexual, which could be. But rather I think that he will place limitations upon children being born. Similar to what is being done in China now. Why? Because it is the natural desire of a woman, that God has given to them, to be a mother. By not regarding this natural desire, he would cause a "forced" limit on the amount of children a woman was "allowed" to have.
38. The mark of the beast will be the amount of his name - Revelations 14:11
39. All that dwell upon the Earth will worship him, except those who's names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life - Revelations 15:2
40. He will have an image made after him - Revelations 15:2
This could also be in reference to his kingdom's logo or insignia. Much like the U.N. has a logo that every soldier on a U.N. mission must wear, there might also be a logo or insignia that his armies would have to wear
His coming will be after the workings of Satan - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
41. He will fight against Jesus Christ at Armageddon (and loose I might add!) - Revelations 17:14
42. He will stand against the Prince of princes - Daniel 8:25
43. The Lord will consume him with the spirit of his mouth (which is the Word of God) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
44. The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming (which is his glory) - 2 Thessalonians 2:8
45. He will be cast alive into the lake of fire - Revelations 19:20
46. He will be tormented day and night for ever and ever - Revelations 20:10

Very fine example of mans-religions using fear to control their followers.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The Bible says, Lionel, not to add nor take away from its scriptures....that would include making them up like you just did.

I'm not adding to scriptures. If you think I'm trying to pass that off as a Bible verse I feel sorry for you. "Don't joke about the Lord, sayeth the Lord. It pisseth me off."

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Also, heres an answer to your question about how do I know the antichrist will be a man.

Interesting. So we can paste together a long string of quotes from wildly different places in the Bible and make it say whatever we want it to? Talk about "adding to the scripture!" You realize of course that this is what a lot of the fundamentalist muslims types that want to blow us up do. Wait, I can do it too!

"[W]orship . . ." Genesis 22:5
" . . . Satan . . ." 1 Chronicles 21:1
". . . said the Lord." Exodus 16:4

Now mind you, I'm illustrating a point here, not advocating devil worship.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The Bible says, Lionel, not to add nor take away from its scriptures....that would include making them up like you just did.


It's called humor Jere. Dont you think the God of love would also be an entity that could/would appreciate good natured humor? Or do you just worship the wrathful/vengeful God?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
My belief is that someone that could destroy mans-religions would not destroy humanity but would save it.
No longer would man be pitted against man solely on religious beliefs as has been, and still occurs to this day.

Why are you putting the blame into religion Dan? It's man who has bastardized the message that most religions were founded for. Most religions preach love of God and self and set aside everyday rules or laws for man to follow. WHats so bad about that?


Mankind argues over everything that has any difference at all. Skin color, nationality, religion, history, opinions. Why would you throw all the blame at religion solely?

And the answer is: Scapegoat! Or as it sayeth in the good book -

"A live goat over whose head Aaron confessed all the sins of the children of Israel on the Day of Atonement. The goat, symbolically bearing their sins, was then sent into the wilderness."

Actually that was dictionary.com, which was once upon a time a book. So maybe we should symbolically cast our religion into the wilderness. Or, more practical, stop talking about it. ;)

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
1. The antichrist will be a man - Daniel 7:24-25
46. He will be tormented day and night for ever and ever - Revelations 20:10

A lot of hardcore femisists would agree with #1 and isn't # 46 the definition of marraige? LOL

Hovak, I believe religion is man. You can not divide the two.
I agree with you that man is the problem. It seems that most every organization man creates eventually leaves its original structure. Look at our Constitution, it is not the original document. Man must constantly meddle with and (improve upon) to satisfy changing opinions and prejudices.
I am against what I call mans-religions because I believe they are just that. No Godly intervention. Yes, when I speak against mans-religions I speak against man. Those that would have everyone live according to their set of rules. A really devout person of a religion leaves no room for any considerations not with-in their religious teachings. It stiffles person expansion of thought.
Thank you for your question.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I am against what I call mans-religions because I believe they are just that. No Godly intervention. Yes, when I speak against mans-religions I speak against man. Those that would have everyone live according to their set of rules. A really devout person of a religion leaves no room for any considerations not with-in their religious teachings. It stiffles person expansion of thought.
Thank you for your question.

Well thought out post Dan.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
I am against what I call mans-religions because I believe they are just that. No Godly intervention. Yes, when I speak against mans-religions I speak against man. Those that would have everyone live according to their set of rules. A really devout person of a religion leaves no room for any considerations not with-in their religious teachings. It stiffles person expansion of thought.
Thank you for your question.

Well thought out post Dan. It isn't the belief in a god that causes the problems. It is the insistance that everyone else act and believe in the same god. And the idea that one cannot question their religion or change their beliefs.

Originally posted by HaVoK
It's called humor Jere. Dont you think the God of love would also be an entity that could/would appreciate good natured humor? Or do you just worship the wrathful/vengeful God?

I am sure that God enjoys humor...although the bible says God Hates Sin...and the bible forbids you to make up scripture....so no I do not think God would find this funny.


Although its funny, I cant agree with it.:p

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I am sure that God enjoys humor...although the bible says God Hates Sin...and the bible forbids you to make up scripture....so no I do not think God would find this funny.

Although its funny, I cant agree with it.:p

I don't recall him trying to pass anything off as scripture. He merely used the same type of language to lampoon scripture. There was no intent to defraud or harm.

Isn't that what your god was implying by his rule to not make it up? And isn't your god smart enough to understand lampoon?

I cannot speak for God, but I can not expect that God would find "lampooning" his word funny.

I personally do not, and it is only IMO, but like I said, I cant imagine he does either.

So God is vengeful, wrathful, AND uptight?

Echo,

Once again, you have demonstrated your uncanny ability to speak about topics on which you seem to have very little expertise.

People question their religion all the time. They see things they are doing wrong, better ways to serve and praise God, and other things all the time. I know many people who have changed their denominations because of things they didnt believe in or agree with, and thats fine.

I am a believer in that the only that that gets you to Heaven if your salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I am a believer in that the only that that gets you to Heaven if your salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ.

OK, here's a question - why isn't a belief in God the key part of getting into heaven? God is after all the "man in charge" so to speak. In other words, why would God make belief in Jesus the test for getting into heaven as opposed to a belief in him?

Its the belief in that Christ died for your sins first of all.

Secondly, Christ is God through Trinity. Although they are three different, they are still one in the same.

"Thou art God."

LionelHutz:OK, here's a question - why isn't a belief in God the key part of getting into heaven? God is after all the "man in charge" so to speak. In other words, why would God make belief in Jesus the test for getting into heaven as opposed to a belief in him
No, no, you are right. Look. If you accept God, then you accept His Son Jesus Christ. See? If you accept Christ, then you accept His Father. See? You need to accept the whole Trinity, otherwise it doesn't count.
Evil Homer:"Thou art God
I think you got that from the Bible, although a verse number would be nice. This, if I am not mistaken, refers to those who believe in Christ. We are, in a sense, gods, because God made us in His image. Although, you have to admit, we are pretty lousy gods.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
LionelHutz:
No, no, you are right. Look. If you accept God, then you accept His Son Jesus Christ. See? If you accept Christ, then you accept His Father. See? You need to accept the whole Trinity, otherwise it doesn't count.

Why? Jews and Muslims worship the same God, but they don't believe that Christ was the savior. So why should they burn in hell? They still believe in God.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
I think you got that from the Bible, although a verse number would be nice. This, if I am not mistaken, refers to those who believe in Christ. We are, in a sense, gods, because God made us in His image. Although, you have to admit, we are pretty lousy gods.


no, i didn't get it from the bible. i got it from another good book. Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein. Has some interesting thoughts on religion there. A very good read.

LionelHutz:Why? Jews and Muslims worship the same God, but they don't believe that Christ was the savior. So why should they burn in hell? They still believe in God.
The only way to be saved is to accept Christ. Ok? They are not accepting THE God, but a god. THE God has Jesus as His son, and send Him to save us. Their god didn't not. Their god is imaginary, an idol, therefore, they are idolaters.

Evil Homer: Are you sure he didn't get it from the Bible?

Originally posted by STOpandthink
The only way to be saved is to accept Christ. Ok? They are not accepting THE God, but a god. THE God has Jesus as His son, and send Him to save us. Their god didn't not. Their god is imaginary, an idol, therefore, they are idolaters.

Nope, it is in fact the same God. In fact, Jews use the Old Testament, so it would have to be the same God. Although I imagine that your answer makes it easier to avoid the difficult question.

It doesn't matter what they use. (plus the more i am finding about Jews the more I think their religion is screwed up) It matters in what the believe. If the believed in the God in OT, then they would have believed in Christ, because OT says that Jesus will come, God says that He will send Saviour. They don't accept that God--they are accepting an imaginary god--an idol.

im sure. That quote is reoccuring in Stranger in a Strange Land. It is an expression meaning that there is no mystical outside force controling your life. You are your own god. You have the power to give, the power to take, to be merciful or vengeful. Thou art God.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
It doesn't matter what they use. He will send Saviour.

They believe that too. They just don't believe that the savior is Jesus.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
(plus the more i am finding about Jews the more I think their religion is screwed up)

Yeah, I'm sure you have a real deep understanding of Judiaism. The more I listen to people like you, the more I think evangelical Christians are screwed up. Glad I was raised a Lutheran.

[i]Originally posted by STOpandthink

The only way to be saved is to accept Christ. Ok? They are not accepting THE God, but a god. THE God has Jesus as His son, and send Him to save us. Their god didn't not. Their god is imaginary, an idol, therefore, they are idolaters. [/B]

I don't think so.

They are still His chosen people so best be careful about how you label people, God may have His own thoughts on it.

Homer, but are you sure that? Check this out:

God has taken His place in the divine assembly;
He judges among the gods: 2_";How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3_Provide justice for the needy and the fatherless;
uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute. 4_Rescue the poor and needy;
save them from the hand of the wicked."; 5_They do not know or understand;
they wander in darkness.
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6_I said, ";You are gods;
you are all sons of the Most High. 7_However, you will die like men
and fall like any other ruler."; 8_Rise up, God, judge the earth,
for all the nations belong to You.

There are several more similar places. Interesting how so many things in the world draw their foundation from the Bible, isn't it?

They believe that too. They just don't believe that the savior is Jesus.
Well, then again, they are not believing in the true God.
Yeah, I'm sure you have a real deep understanding of Judiaism. The more I listen to people like you, the more I think evangelical Christians are screwed up. Glad I was raised a Lutheran.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said I have a deep understanding, I never said I have any good understanding at all. All I claimed that the things I hear and read about Jews make me feel sorry for them.
So what is Lutheran religion like?
Sal:
I don't think so.

They are still His chosen people so best be careful about how you label people, God may have His own thoughts on
God does have His thoughts, and they are written in the Bible. Jesus tells many times that the chosen people didn't accept His word, but the Gentiles did, so the latter are more blessed, where as, the former are accursed.

accursed? I think not.

Exactly where in the bible does God renounce and change his mind on his chosen people?

Well, the woes against scribes and Pharisees can be found here:
Matthew 23:1-36, and then the next two verses specifically talk about people in Jerusalem.
What about Jews? I am not good at finding quotes fast and it's getting late. I will get back on it tomorrow.

Ok, here are some:
Matthew 22:1-14
John 8:37-47
and there are several places in Paul's letters too.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Ok, here are some:
Matthew 22:1-14
John 8:37-47
and there are several places in Paul's letters too.

Well Stop Mathew isn't specific in saying that He has chosen a new people. This could be about anyone who has heard The Word and chosen to reject it.

John was a good choice though since it specifically refers to descendants of Abraham. I do not think however this implies that the Jews are accursed and rejected as His people.

In Ezekiel 11:16 he tells them he will bring them out of the land of the heathens where they have been scattered and He will give them Isreal. He has.

Also in Jeremiah 31:35 He says he will NEVER cast them aside.

Matthew is specific. Christ came to Jews first, they were the first one called. Many did reject His word and many will be held responsible for it.
I am not saying that ALL Jews are accursed, but many who rejected Christ and the Word.
The whole OT is a struggle for God to try and make Jews love Him. He does good to them, but they turn away. He punishes them, they repent, and are back on track. Then it's all over again. God is patient, and I think He will try to "recollect" Jews again, but those who, when they lived, didn't accept Christ are accursed, because they had more reasons to do so.

Originally posted by STOpandthink
Matthew is specific. Christ came to Jews first, they were the first one called. Many did reject His word and many will be held responsible for it.
I am not saying that ALL Jews are accursed, but many who rejected Christ and the Word.
The whole OT is a struggle for God to try and make Jews love Him. He does good to them, but they turn away. He punishes them, they repent, and are back on track. Then it's all over again. God is patient, and I think He will try to "recollect" Jews again, but those who, when they lived, didn't accept Christ are accursed, because they had more reasons to do so.

So then he lied to them in Jeremiah???????????????

See this is where I have huge problems with people's interpretation of the bible... not as much problem as with those who take it literally but still a HUGE problem.

In Mathew according to me he does not reject them... but according to you he does. Scholars debate over the interpretation of one word. Yet lay people think they understand and that they are right.

Therein lies my problem with the whole bible dilemma and the whole "saved thing".

I just think a whole lot of people are going to get one big surprise at the end of their life.

I am not referring to you specifically Stop... just in general. We only use a fraction of our God given brain power. What makes people think they understand the Word of God better than another?

Baffles me!

Oh well... at least debate is good for the soul...:D

Some people DO understand the word better than others and we should listen to those people (for example the saints)
Look at it this way, Sal. A Jew, who killed, raped, and otherwise sinned, dies and stands before Christ. Christ says: "Well, you have been a sinner and you didn't not repent. I guess it's hell for you. Oh...wait. You are a Jew right? Oh, never mind then, please enter the heaven."
Does that sound reasonable? No, I don't think so.
Also, I don't think you mean Jeremiah 31:35. I looked and there is nothing there about it. I think you mistyped.