A thread specifically for Lionel and his posse of Evolutionist Christians to duke it out with Jere and his band of Creationist Christians. :)

I was not involved in the pre mentioned "duke out", but I believe they are compatable.

I have heard that gods days are more than 24 hours, they are thousands of years. Evolution took thousands of years.

Evolution/dna-mutations and the entire formation of life is a wonderfull and brilliant piece of science. Anyone that understands how cells divide and DNA mutates knows this. God is quite capable of producing such a brilliant and wonderfull way for life to multipy and evolve.

You religious people who deny that god created evolution are essentially denying him credit for his greatest creation. I wonder how that would make him feel?

Originally posted by Echo2
I was not involved in the pre mentioned "duke out", but I believe they are compatable.

I have heard that gods days are more than 24 hours, they are thousands of years. Evolution took thousands of years.

Evolution/dna-mutations and the entire formation of life is a wonderfull and brilliant piece of science. Anyone that understands how cells divide and DNA mutates knows this. God is quite capable of producing such a brilliant and wonderfull way for life to multipy and evolve.

You religious people who deny that god created evolution are essentially denying him credit for his greatest creation. I wonder how that would make him feel?

Save the waterworks Echo.

The Bible clearly states that Adam was made of the dust of the ground, and Eve with the addition of Adam's rib.

Nothing even remotely mentiones any progression of line that eventually makes man.

In fact, God says that we are made in his image. Is that to say that God is an Ape?

Of course not!

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
In fact, God says that we are made in his image. Is that to say that God is an Ape?

Are you saying God looks like a man (or woman)? Maybe God doesn't look like anything.

I totally agree Lionel.

In fact, I have heard many people say that they believe God is a spirit and that Christ will be the only physical form we will see in Heaven.

Although, the only problems minor problems I have with this is this.

The bible says he "walked with them in the garden." It does sound like he is physically walking with them, but as we speak, I am walking with the lord, so it may mean that.

And it says he sits on his throne, another physical attribute.

I believe that if there is a God, then he definitely "created" evolution. I also believe that the Biblical account of creation is a fairy tale.

I use the term "fairy tale" not to be derisive but as the best term to describe a story that includes Dragons, Giants, Unicorns, Satyrs, and Cockatrices among the creatures that God created.

I would like anyone who believes the Bible is completely true to tell me that these creatures actually existed, and explain why, if the world is only 6,000 years old, we have found no evidence whatsoever for the existence of these mythological beasts.

Vile, I believe that the storys of such beasts as unicorns, giants,etc. came from the finding of the bones of prehistoric creatures. Early man had no way of knowing what these bones were. They found a giant leg bone of a creature and assumed that at one time there were giants among us.
The fossilized skull of a creature with one bone exposed in front was assumed to be a unicorn. These stories were merely more examples of attempts by ignorant people to explain that which they could not understand.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Vile, I believe that the storys of such beasts as unicorns, giants,etc. came from the finding of the bones of prehistoric creatures. Early man had no way of knowing what these bones were. They found a giant leg bone of a creature and assumed that at one time there were giants among us.
The fossilized skull of a creature with one bone exposed in front was assumed to be a unicorn. These stories were merely more examples of attempts by ignorant people to explain that which they could not understand.

I'm sure you're absolutely correct about the origins of the stories about dragons and unicorns. A narwhal's horn could easily have been mistaken for a unicorns horn. I would still like to hear from someone who believes in the "infallibility" of the Bible as to how they would explain away these stories, but I suspect I'll receive no responses from them.

I think that evolution and christianism are antonyms.

I agree with Dan, it makes good sense.

I still have trouble understanding why Evolution is such an offensive idea to some. It makes perfent sense. Making a man out of dust seems a little far fetched to me.


Why is it so hard to understand evolution? I think the people that are afraid of the idea, haven't really read and explored it.

Why are Christians so threatened by it?

They are threatened by anything that contradicts the bible. They see the bible as the absolute truth.

A thousands of years old book, written by a managerie of different people at a time when science didn't exhist and man had few or no explanations for how the world worked. Translated hundreds of times by hundreds of different people of different languages and different agendas.

Is it any wonder they murdered people for saying the world was round or that the earth rotated around the sun? - These statements threatened them because they disagreed with the bible. It is no surprise that they are threatened by evolution.

Faith demands one subjugate logic.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Save the waterworks Echo.
LOL.

Anyway, I believe evolution and Christianity are incompatible.

Evolution is a religion. It is the worship of the minds of men. It was designed to try to prove that there is no God, by providing a mechanism by which we could be created by natural means. They've utterly failed in this attempt, but still blindly hold to the theory because they do not want to be held accountable to an almighty God. Whenever the evidence argues against their claims, as it often does, they appeal to the authority of "science" or "scientists" as if the field of science and it's "official" practitioners are infallible.

The true God, the God of the Bible demands that we have no other Gods before him. Someone believing in "theistic evolution" is trying to have it both ways. God does not allow that.

By the way, the King James Bible was written 400 years ago, and some of the common usage has changed. Unicorn=ram; Satyr=goat; cockatrice=snake; dragon=large sea animal; giant=Shaquille O'Neal.

Also: thou=you; art=are; gay=happy; ass=donkey, etc.

Uncool, I call bullshit. Why could God not have "created" the evolutionary process?

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
Evolution is a religion. It is the worship of the minds of men. It was designed to try to prove that there is no God, by providing a mechanism by which we could be created by natural means.

Are you for real? What fanatical religion thought this conspiracy theory crap up? Sad and desperate.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Uncool, I call bullshit. Why could God not have "created" the evolutionary process?

Borg,

Its not a matter of rather or not he could have created evolution. The fact is he didnt.

The Bible teaches that man was made from the dust of the ground, not an ape, a fish, or anything else.

Originally posted by Echo2
Are you for real? What fanatical religion thought this conspiracy theory crap up? Sad and desperate.

How can you say he is sad and desperate for not buying into a science that doesnt go along with the word of God?

You believe the opposite...does that make you sad and desperate or is it only christians that are?:rolleyes:

Evolution is a religion. It is the worship of the minds of men. It was designed to try to prove that there is no God, by providing a mechanism by which we could be created by natural means.
I also call bullshit. Science was not designed to disprove god. For your god did not exist in the minds of men until after much of the scientific process was created. We call them philosophers today because they had no methods to prove what they claimed, but often they were right, through observation. We have Archimidies, who's principle we still use. Euclid's geometry. Trying to figure the world out was not to disprove god, it was to find the truth. Not to mention the Greeks were mostly athiests anyways, only Greek philosopher I can think of that may have believed in the gods was Aristotle. That was hundreds of years before Christianity sprung up. And back then, Judism was just a small cult of crazy people.

As for the bible. Did you ever think that the bible was not literal! Same way Homer made his stories, what's more interesting, getting lost for years with a few storms and crashing on uninhabited islands, or a clash between men and the gods? More interesting, men jumping overboard because they snapped, or diving to their fates because they were tempted by evil beautiful woman? Getting lost on an island searching for food, or being kidnapped by a cyclops and having to outwit and fight your way out? What was the old testament really written for? Campside stories, or the literate truth? Personally, I think it was entertainment, stories to tell your children, a few nice, a few bad. Like the boogieman. Same with the new testament, real events, or a bunch of parables to tell you the best way to live your life? It's not that fun, or even very persuasive, to just say "Don't steal".

Originally posted by Blibblob
As for the bible. Did you ever think that the bible was not literal! Same way Homer made his stories, what's more interesting, getting lost for years with a few storms and crashing on uninhabited islands, or a clash between men and the gods? More interesting, men jumping overboard because they snapped, or diving to their fates because they were tempted by evil beautiful woman? Getting lost on an island searching for food, or being kidnapped by a cyclops and having to outwit and fight your way out?

Yeah, the only difference is a greek writer wrote his stories as fiction and entertainment, The Bible is God's word to people.

Quite a big difference.

What was the old testament really written for? Campside stories, or the literate truth? Personally, I think it was entertainment, stories to tell your children, a few nice, a few bad. Like the boogieman. Same with the new testament, real events, or a bunch of parables to tell you the best way to live your life? It's not that fun, or even very persuasive, to just say "Don't steal".

Gods commandments may not be fun, but they are his commandmends which we are to obey.

The old testament are full of stories and the new testament is full of parables....but this doesnt mean they are for entertainment.

The stories of the old testiment show us the world before Jesus saved us. The parables of the New, are stories told by Jesus to demonstrate a point or purpose, on how we should view a certian topic.

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck

By the way, the King James Bible was written 400 years ago, and some of the common usage has changed. Unicorn=ram; Satyr=goat; cockatrice=snake; dragon=large sea animal; giant=Shaquille O'Neal.

Also: thou=you; art=are; gay=happy; ass=donkey, etc.

Common usage? You have to be kidding me...Did people who owned goats 400 years ago call them satyrs? Did St. George slay a large sea creature?

You really need to do better than that Uncool.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Borg,

Its not a matter of rather or not he could have created evolution. The fact is he didnt.

The Bible teaches that man was made from the dust of the ground, not an ape, a fish, or anything else.
For the final time, the Bible does not supersede science! The Bible is a fucking book! It is no truer than Harry Potter! Whereas, science, including evolution is true and can be proven. Just because "the Bible says something" by no means makes it true. I do not understand how you twits can continue to dismiss factual evidence because some extremely old book says a mythical Superman came around and turned dust into people, and then got mad at the people and drowned them all, and then did some more stuff, and came down as a man, died, came back to life, etc. The PROOF for evolution is out there. And you admit that there is no PROOF for the Bible. Yet you, incredibly, continue to insist that the proof for the former doesn't exist, despite the fact that it's been posted ten trillion times on this forum.

Learn to think for YOURSELF, Jere, and stop basing your every last thought on a book that continually contradicts itself and most rational people don't consider LITERAL, but rather a SYMBOLIC kind of book.

Yeah, the only difference is a greek writer wrote his stories as fiction and entertainment, The Bible is God's word to people.
Are you sure? How can you be. You don't know what they were thinking back then. We do know the Hebrews could write by around 1500BC to 2000BC(We've found Hebrew stone writings dating back then). In your sense, that's 2000 years after the earth was created, and there was an entire book that happened before then. That was the book full of magic. Moses, bah, that may have been nature, in it's entirety(Around 2000BC is where we place Moses, a well learned man in Egypt, at that time a volcano erupted on an island, completely obliterating it, firey peices flew to Egypt, smoke covered the sky for hundreds of miles, and after a thing such as that, vast amounts of frogs and insects come out(as seen at Mount Hellen in America). And it was poweful enough to dry out a strip of water in the Sea of Reeds(that was a mistranslation, that Hebrew phrase does not mean Red Sea)). However, Genesis, gives us a bunch of magical things, that we are unable to explain with science. That was before it was written down, that was the time of telling it to your children. It is still quite possible that it was exagerated for entertainment. I mean, what else are you supposed to do for entertainment? Back then it was story telling.

The old testament are full of stories and the new testament is full of parables....but this doesnt mean they are for entertainment.
That makes no sense. People at that time were not interested in listening to history in such a boring sense that many of us do now. They were common folk, no education to speak of. Jesus spoke to entertain. Why else would he use parables? And in no other way would he of been able to gather such a group of people. They certainly weren't theologists or intellectuals.

Originally posted by creetwins
I still have trouble understanding why Evolution is such an offensive idea to some. It makes perfent sense. Making a man out of dust seems a little far fetched to me.


Why is it so hard to understand evolution? I think the people that are afraid of the idea, haven't really read and explored it.

Why are Christians so threatened by it? Im a Christian and i am no way threatened by the theory of evolution.

Im a Christian and i am no way threatened by the theory of evolution.

See? I have no problem with that. People like you I am cool with.

IMO God is a pretty creative guy, one who's essences I believe cannot be bound in a book.

You'd think he is also evolving, and times have changed since the bible was written, who's to say the bible has the capacity to explain what God is all about. Why would a god do that, full knowing humanity's ability to skew, and misunderstand things, and form opinions and thoughts on his own.

I think Go d would be a little more enigmatic than to spell everything out for eveyone.

And to blib. I agree about the mythical proportions of the bible. Every culture has it's example of teaching through lore, and it goes as far back to oral traditions, when these teachings were passed through tellings. In some places there are still examples of this. And the funny thing? The general messages are similar throughout, only played out by different characters.
Don't kill don't steal etc. etc. many many like lessons.

I would like to more thoroughly lay out my examples of this, but time is limited to me right now, so until i have more time to share some examples, you'll all have to trust me on this. We are all the same my brothers!!!

Originally posted by creetwins
See? I have no problem with that. People like you I am cool with.

IMO God is a pretty creative guy, one who's essences I believe cannot be bound in a book.

Youre absolutely right. God can not be bound in the bible alone. He is far greater, and far more powerful. He is so great and wonderous that we do not have the words in our vocabulary that can accurately describe him.


You'd think he is also evolving, and times have changed since the bible was written, who's to say the bible has the capacity to explain what God is all about. Why would a god do that, full knowing humanity's ability to skew, and misunderstand things, and form opinions and thoughts on his own.

I think Go d would be a little more enigmatic than to spell everything out for eveyone.

You are acting like God is one dimentional here. The boible was given to us as his word, but it does not complete him.

Like I said prior, he is far greater than the bible can even begin to explain.

And to blib. I agree about the mythical proportions of the bible. Every culture has it's example of teaching through lore, and it goes as far back to oral traditions, when these teachings were passed through tellings. In some places there are still examples of this. And the funny thing? The general messages are similar throughout, only played out by different characters.
Don't kill don't steal etc. etc. many many like lessons.

I would like to more thoroughly lay out my examples of this, but time is limited to me right now, so until i have more time to share some examples, you'll all have to trust me on this. We are all the same my brothers!!!

Yes we are the same, because we are all made and loved by God. Our sins have all been paid for by Jesus Christ.

Yes, CW, we are all the same.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

Yes we are the same, because we are all made and loved by God. Our sins have all been paid for by Jesus Christ.


Wow, and here I thought it was because we were all human ::slaps head:: I guess I should go learn more about this Jesus guy...he sounds cool...:slap:

Wow...surely not...another cheap joke?? Wait, it is.

We are all humans because God made each and everyone us.

JJ, you did it again. It never ceases to amaze me how you can turn everything into dogmatic propoganda. I will bow at your ability to drop logic, reason, and thought in every debate.

Blib,

How is the fact that God created us being in the least bit dogmatic? How does the fact that you disagree with me on religion make me dogmatic, and drop thought in every debate.

If you dont agree with me thats fine, but I will continue to speak what I know to be the truth.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
If you dont agree with me thats fine, but I will continue to speak what I know to be the truth.
THAT is dogmatic! You don't know a damned thing except what the Bible tells you...and when facts get in the way, you either ignore them or claim they're untrue when they're not...

You don't know jack. You can't. The Bible is not all-truthful and such like you make it out to be. Your only reason for thinking it is is "The Bible says". Circular logic, Jere. You need to grow some independent thought, seriously.

"Yes we are the same, because we are all made and loved by God. Our sins have all been paid for by Jesus Christ."
That is dogma. That is propoganda. That is nothing more than annoying emotional crap that get's spewed. There is no logic behind that, you are doing nothing but preaching. I'm not calling you dogmatic for disagreeing with me. I'm calling you dogmatic for the exact definition of that word. "Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles." That is what you do. You do many things, but one thing that you do not do is debate.

What exactly are these many things I do Blib?

I'm not quite sure. I was being optimistic. :D

I was trying to give you the opportunity to speak your mind, rather good or bad.

I would like to know.

I would call it regurgitation.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I was trying to give you the opportunity to speak your mind, rather good or bad.

I would like to know.

I can't speak for blib jere, but I was very put off by your "Jesus died for your sins" remark. You can believe that nonsense if you want, but when you presume to speak about MY sins, I'll jam it right back down your throat. :)

Jesus loves us all, Pagan. Even you.

See, things like that. Expect to be insulted, because much of it insults others, including myself.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Jesus loves us all, Pagan. Even you.
Satan loves us all, Jere. Even you.

When you say things like that Borg, I'm sure he does. ;)

Hey! Satan's my pal! I think I might kill you if it's really you who's been stealing my tea time with him. He told me he had to spend time raping Ghandi!

Believe it or not, that made me laugh.

I love jesus...:D

*Yawn*

Youre only hurting yourself, I'm not phased.

There you go, telling people their fate again.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
*Yawn*

Youre only hurting yourself, I'm not phased.
Thank you, oh omniscient Jere, for telling us the secrets of life! Only you know because you alone have been blessed with the knowledge of what is, and what will be! Please tell us more, oh mighty one!

My bad creetwins...its ok for people to say what they want...but when the other side says it, you have to jump with your finger pointed.

Go sit down.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
My bad creetwins...its ok for people to say what they want...but when the other side says it, you have to jump with your finger pointed.

Go sit down.
No one here has told you you're going to Hell. No one has said you are posessed by Satan. No one has insulted you by acting in a condescending manner with our religions. YOU have done all that. You sit down.

jere, sit down. Cree you just flap around on those pretty little wings of yours. :)

My bad creetwins...its ok for people to say what they want...but when the other side says it, you have to jump with your finger pointed. Go sit down.


Who's pointing fingers, I only state the obvious. We should be more like you and not joke about Jesus, cause we are only hurting ourselves.

Have you had a nap lately?


Do you hear me telling you to accept evolution or else scary bad unknown harm may befall you? Get real. Using fear as a motivation to follow a doctrine is weak.

Let me make this real simple for everyone.

If you have an opinion, thats cool. I do not think I was a second out of line for one second. He was trying to hurt me, I told him quite frankly the only person he was hurting was himself.

Thats my opinion, and I reserve the right to say it.

whatever, still doesn't explain why you feel I should "go sit down"

if anyone is jumping and pointing, Jere it's you, you seem to know how everything is going to turn out for us all.........

Really, he was? I think he was trying to poke fun at Christianity...and if that hurts you, that's your own damned problem...

Well then ditto to you borg.

You all harp about it hurting your feelings that Jesus loves you. :rolleyes: but its a problem if something bothers me.

Thats sounds very intelligent and fair.

The difference is you're being a pompous ass by telling us we're all going to Hell, and Vile is just having a bit of fun.

Jere, as I SAID earlier, I have no problem when you say jesus loves me. When you presume to speak about my SINS, you can stick that thought so far up your ass that no amount of prayer will ever reach it. :)

jere, sit down. Cree you just flap around on those pretty little wings of yours.



:) :) :)

I never told anyone that they are going to hell.

Nor do I want anyone go to hell.

All I said was that he was just hurting himself....it isnt bothering me.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Common usage? You have to be kidding me...Did people who owned goats 400 years ago call them satyrs? Did St. George slay a large sea creature.

All I know is that, in a Hebrew lexicon, the word satyr is taken from a Hebrew word for goat. The word dragon is taken from a Hebrew word for a sea serpent or other large marine animal. And the word Satyr is taken from a Hebrew word for goat.

Sorry, I did not live 400 years ago, and I have no idea what St. George slew, so I can't do any better than that.

However, I do know that there are several areas in the Bible that do not translate well into English, and that sometimes downright errors were made in translation. However, the Bible as originally given to man by God is without any error.

A more complete discussion of this is in the 'Logic vs. Bible' thread

OK, if we are all made in gods image, then is god tall, short, fat, skinny, female, male, blond, brunette, caucasion, black?

If you can stretch your "made in gods image" theary to include physical images of all people, why is it so hard to stretch it to mean a lifeforce that grows and develops and evolves.

Did your god give us the ability to grow? To learn? To change? Then why is it so hard to believe that he gave our bodies the same gifts he gave our minds?

Where in the bible does it explicitly say that god did not give our physical bodies the same abilities he gave our minds?

Originally posted by creetwins


IMO God is a pretty creative guy, one who's essences I believe cannot be bound in a book.

You'd think he is also evolving, and times have changed since the bible was written, who's to say the bible has the capacity to explain what God is all about. Why would a god do that, full knowing humanity's ability to skew, and misunderstand things, and form opinions and thoughts on his own.

I think Go d would be a little more enigmatic than to spell everything out for eveyone.

Bravo!

On a sidenote. Its seems to me that Blib, Borg, and Vile are all exceptionally sensitive to Jere's remarks about his faith. Are you three threatened that much that you have to attack the guy for simply saying his opinion that Jesus died for your sins?

Hell, Vile you never got that mad at me for telling you my opinion was that your lifestyle is a deviant behaivor. You never posted little nasty messages about my faith when i expressed my opinions. Why attack this guy for stating his opinion?

Im not taking Jere's side, as i've said before i believe him to be a religious elitist. But i dont think he deserves to be attacked every time he states an opinion.

Well, we've been getting a bit irritated at his, as you said, religious elitism. It may seem that we're attacking him for having faith...and we probably are...but it's really in defense of his willful ignorance on evolution and his, again, irritating religious elitism.

As for your faith, since I don't think you have ever said anything about my sins or my going to Hell, I'm cool with it. Religion can be a perfectly fine thing as long as you don't attack people with it. :)

Originally posted by HaVoK
Are you three threatened that much that you have to attack the guy for simply saying his opinion that Jesus died for your sins?

I'm not threatened...I'm offended that he thinks he knows the first thing about my "sins". If he wants to talk about sin, let him speak of his own.

Hell, Vile you never got that mad at me for telling you my opinion was that your lifestyle is a deviant behaivor. You never posted little nasty messages about my faith when i expressed my opinions. Why attack this guy for stating his opinion?

You didn't presume to tell me that my behavior was sinful, and when I did tell you I didn't appreciate being called a "deviant", you apologized. Jere hasn't.

But i dont think he deserves to be attacked every time he states an opinion.

I don't really think I've "attacked" jere, so much as expressed my displeasure with his presumption. If he can express his opinion that Jesus died for my sins, I can express my opinions as well. Perhaps the statement that he should "pray for intellect" could be regarded as an attack, but it's also a suggestion that I think has a lot of merit in his case.

Evolution,a gift from God dedecated to the development of humanity.

Originally posted by Perry5
Evolution,a gift from God dedecated to the development of humanity. Did you think that up Perry? I like it. :thumbs:

It sounds to me like the basic question here is if the Bible, in particular, Genesis, should be taken literally. Well, the answer seems obvious to me. Let's take a look at the very beginning of Genesis, where creation is explained.

Day 1: God creates light and dark.
Day 2: God creates Heaven.
Day 3: God created land and water.
Day 4: Sun, moon and stars created.
Day 5: Animals created.
Day 6: Man and woman created.

Okay, we already know for sure that this order is not correct. For instance, we know that Earth is not younger than many, many stars. We also are fairly certain that man and woman were not on earth 3 days after land appeared. Therefore, it is fairly reasonable to judge that this portion of Genesis is not literal.

With that in mind, I don't see anything wrong with believing that both the Bible and evolution are true.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Im not taking Jere's side, as i've said before i believe him to be a religious elitist. But i dont think he deserves to be attacked every time he states an opinion.

A religious elitist?

How in the world do you get that?

Spreading the good word of Christ, and wanting salvation and eternal happiness for all is being an elitist? I dont see how.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Well, we've been getting a bit irritated at his, as you said, religious elitism. It may seem that we're attacking him for having faith...and we probably are...but it's really in defense of his willful ignorance on evolution and his, again, irritating religious elitism.


Ah, now that makes sense.

They are irritated because I refuse to agree with their opinion.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I'm not threatened...I'm offended that he thinks he knows the first thing about my "sins". If he wants to talk about sin, let him speak of his own......you apologized. Jere hasn't.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Matt. 12:31

Blasphemy is not something I take lightly....however, if me pointing this out to you is offensive, I apologize for pointing it out.







I don't really think I've "attacked" jere, so much as expressed my displeasure with his presumption. If he can express his opinion that Jesus died for my sins, I can express my opinions as well. Perhaps the statement that he should "pray for intellect" could be regarded as an attack, but it's also a suggestion that I think has a lot of merit in his case.


I'm fine with whatever you say Pagan.

God's word backs me up.

And now they reject the truth when it reaches them: but soon shall they learn the reality of what they used to mock at.

See they not how many of those before them We did destroy?- generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations.

If We had sent unto thee a written (message) on parchment, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say: "This is nothing but obvious magic!"

Originally posted by Karankawa
Okay, we already know for sure that this order is not correct. For instance, we know that Earth is not younger than many, many stars. We also are fairly certain that man and woman were not on earth 3 days after land appeared. Therefore, it is fairly reasonable to judge that this portion of Genesis is not literal.

With that in mind, I don't see anything wrong with believing that both the Bible and evolution are true. I respect your theory, however, how do you now that the stars are older than Earth or that man was not here on the third day (which might even be the "third day" of Earth.

Where you here then? Have you travled to the stars and did a test on them?

Are you relying on the word of scientists against the word of God?


If you are, you're not relying on the right one.

A religious elitist? How in the world do you get that?
Spreading the good word of Christ, and wanting salvation and eternal happiness for all is being an elitist? I dont see how.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know that from where you are sitting it is difficult to see the way people percieve you. Just like I really have no idea how peo;e are going to take me. I don't know what it is about you that rubs people the wrong way, maybe it's your "i know better" attitude. There are lots of poeple here who disagree, and many of us have come to terms with each other and moved on, I know Havok and I didn't start off on the right foot months back, but hey, doesn't mean we can't be civil towards each other. If all my friends were exaclty like me, holding the same religious, political and social standings, then hell I might as well be my own friend.


Blasphemy is not something I take lightly....however, if me pointing this out to you is offensive, I apologize for pointing it out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Leave the judging to God Jere, it's not your job.

It doesnt matter to me how I am precieved. It doesnt matter to me if I am personally liked or not.

Jesus knew when he came to Earth that he would not be liked by everyone.

I know that this site is in the very large precentage of athiest and agnostic, and thats fine, I still love every person on here.

However, rather it is popular or not, I will not back down from telling the gosple and truth of Jesus Christ.


And I do apologize for judging.

If you want to spread the word of Jesus, you are in the wrong place. Go to a Christian forum, you'd be well-received there. We're here to debate, not to proselytize.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
If you want to spread the word of Jesus, you are in the wrong place. Go to a Christian forum, you'd be well-received there. We're here to debate, not to proselytize.

Why would it be useful to spread the word of Jesus to Christians...they done know who Christ is and what he is doing in their lives.

Now the interesting thing I see with your post is you say you are here to "debate" but then you tell me not to spread the word of Jesus. Do we only do things one way around here.

I dont see Republicans or Democrats told to go to their perspective forums because they disagree with one another.

If you want to debate thats fine. Debate all you want. I have no problem standing up for Jesus.

You aren't debating. You're mindlessly spewing "J3BUS LUVS U AND FORGAVE ALL YUR SINS!!!11one" at least half the time. If you drop that sort of thing, I'll lay off, OK?

Didn't I tell you that you don't debate? You spread propoganda, and have been unable to back up any facts without the bible. That's not debating. You're just preaching. And, frankly, that's not wanted. So, stand up for Jesus, but, dammit, give us reason, give us logic and, for bloody hell, facts. Otherwise, you're just being a dumbass.

Why would it be useful to spread the word of Jesus to Christians...they done know who Christ is and what he is doing in their lives.

Who are you doing it for jere? You or us?

I would be fine with your views if you were like" Worshipping Jesus works for me because______" or "i find peace and comfort in this religion Because______" But the message I am hearing is not a joyful brotherly one. It is more judgemental and condescending, with little jabs of sarcasm, and defensiveness. You should be sensitive to the fact that NO, the world isn't solely Christian, and many of us are happy and content in our lives without being told it is wrong because we might not worship the way you do. But you are so justified in your views, that you think you know what everyone needs. In most circles I know of, this is rude. Do not assume that what is right for you may be right for your neighbour, and if it is not, you will have to accept that person the way the are. How many non christian friends do you have Jere, and if you do, do they tolerate you opinions on how one should worship?

I myself would tire of this one-dimensional subject matter very quickly.

Doing it for God, Creetwins.

We are commanded to whitness the love of Christ to the world. Can I help it if you want accept him? No. But I will not back down from anyone because they disagree with the word of God.

I am blessed to live in an area of the world, where just about everyone is either Christian or atleast a believer. There are a few athiests but they are for the most part just confused or abused Goths. There are not a lot of normal people here who dont believe in Christ, and I thank God for that.

However, I wouldnt mind having friends that dont believe in Christ. In fact, I go to band competitions with an agnostic. But, I do and would do to anyone other ones, tell him what God can and will do in his life when he accepts him.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
We are commanded to whitness the love of Christ to the world.
You obviously weren't commanded to spell it correctly...
There are not a lot of normal people here who dont believe in Christ, and I thank God for that.
Why? What's wrong with quote-unquote "normal people" who don't believe in Christ? I'm normal enough, and I certainly don't believe Jesus was anything more than an insane religious zealot.
However, I wouldnt mind having friends that dont believe in Christ. In fact, I go to band competitions with an agnostic. But, I do and would do to anyone other ones, tell him what God can and will do in his life when he accepts him.
Ask that agnostic friend how it feels when pushy Christians proselytize. Because that's exactly what you're doing...and trust me, he doesn't like it.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
We are commanded to whitness the love of Christ to the world.

That's great Jere, but perhaps your interpretation of what that means is skewed. I was taught that we do that be being good people and showing others that God leads us to live a good life, not that we are required to tell everyone the many ways in which they have sinned and why they're going to spend their lives in hell (or as you say it, not in heaven).

Originally posted by BorgHunter
You obviously weren't commanded to spell it correctly...

Nope, sure wouldnt, however I was told that no man other than Christ was perfect.;)

Why? What's wrong with quote-unquote "normal people" who don't believe in Christ? I'm normal enough, and I certainly don't believe Jesus was anything more than an insane religious zealot.

I meant that there isnt a lot of non Goths here that are Athiest.


Ask that agnostic friend how it feels when pushy Christians proselytize. Because that's exactly what you're doing...and trust me, he doesn't like it.

So now you have a talent to know what people like and dont dislike.

Quite on the contrary, he enjoys our discussions, and has even admitted to me, that he knows deep in his heart, that there is something telling him he needs to get right with the lord. He has said prayers before, but then somehow, someway, the devil does something to derail his progress, and he goes back to his old ways.

Then, the lord starts to work again, and all and all, I think hes coming through.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
That's great Jere, but perhaps your interpretation of what that means is skewed. I was taught that we do that be being good people and showing others that God leads us to live a good life, not that we are required to tell everyone the many ways in which they have sinned and why they're going to spend their lives in hell (or as you say it, not in heaven).

I have apolgized for such comments, please, move on.

Furthermore, you are exactly right. Part of it is living a good life and being a good example, but thats only part of it.

If you just sit blankly all the time with no expression, and never told anyone why, theyd be like whats the point in being without expression, why would I want to do this? We should tell people what it is to be a Christian, and how it will change their life.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
We should tell people what it is to be a Christian, and how it will change their life.

This, of course, presumes that you know what it is to be a Christian.

Are there any religious groups represented on Sunday television
other than Christian?
I do not remember seeing any. Could this be because Christian followers are more likely to send in money than say Buddists?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Are there any religious groups represented on Sunday television
other than Christian?
I do not remember seeing any. Could this be because Christian followers are more likely to send in money than say Buddists?

Probably because it's the only group large enough to support/justify their own programs.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
This, of course, presumes that you know what it is to be a Christian. Exactly. That holier than thou "I know whats best for you" attitude pisses me off to no end. I dont tell you how to worship God, or even if you should. Give me the same respect.

Perhaps you should begin to consider adding "demi-troll" to your Unwelcomed List, Borg. There might just be one at hand right here that's been spewing much venomous goo at the rate of 10+ poodles per day. That Authentic Fan you banned recently might also fall into this category. Or that violet whatever person who kept starting long posts and doesn't reply.

Now this really is getting rediculous.

Because you disagree with me you think I should be banned? My God. I dont start pointless threads and then not answer. I answer every post that I can that is directed to me.

I cant help it if you disagree with the word of God, but I'm not going to conceal my views because they disagree with yours.

Thats a shame. A shame to even bring it up.

I have just as much right to speak the news of Christ as anyone else does theirs. If you dont agree with me, or dont want to read my posts, ignore them.

To adress the last few posts, I am not trying to be holier than thou. But when a topic is brought up in the religion forum, is it not my right to address the topic from the point of the view of what the bible and christ teaches about it?

I think its rediculous that people are even saying and thinking this stuff.

FYI, there are many denominations represented on television. Baptist, Catholic, Episticol, Pentacostal, all kinds.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Now this really is getting rediculous.

Because you disagree with me you think I should be banned? My God. I dont start pointless threads and then not answer. I answer every post that I can that is directed to me.

I cant help it if you disagree with the word of God, but I'm not going to conceal my views because they disagree with yours.

Thats a shame. A shame to even bring it up.

I have just as much right to speak the news of Christ as anyone else does theirs. If you dont agree with me, or dont want to read my posts, ignore them.

To adress the last few posts, I am not trying to be holier than thou. But when a topic is brought up in the religion forum, is it not my right to address the topic from the point of the view of what the bible and christ teaches about it?

I think its rediculous that people are even saying and thinking this stuff.

FYI, there are many denominations represented on television. Baptist, Catholic, Episticol, Pentacostal, all kinds. I have to agree with Jere here on this one. If indeed that is what dio meant. He hasnt been spewing hatred. If anything he is trying in his own way to spread love. Love of God. And i've even seen him tell a couple people he loved them. Just because he is a little agressive with his opinions on Christ shouldnt be cause to ban him.

Dio, please tell me Jere misinterpreted your last post. You're not really calling for Borg to ban him are you? I mean, this is a place where differing opinions are welcomed as long as you can be moderately civil.

For what its worth, I do apologize if I have been overly agressive with some of my comments.

I know somtimes I have been, and other times, through the means of typing, it seems like I did when I didnt mean to be. I am praying about this, and I will try my best to honor the golden rule from now further.

I will never have any problem whatsoever with people's differing opinions. Not to mention that JJBinks here eagerly participates in most of his arguments. What I see in common among the people I listed which I call "demi-trolls" is the way reasons are dropped, questions are ignored, opposing views are immediately and mindlessly disregarded, and logic misused, on a very constant basis. I feel in involved discussions this behavior will cause ill-tempered and unintelligible posts to pop up a lot more, similar to the result of trolling.

I am not asking Borg to ban him. I addressed this specifically to Borg partly to agree with him on several of his previous posts where he said:

...Yet you, incredibly, continue to insist that the proof for the former doesn't exist, despite the fact that it's been posted ten trillion times on this forum.

...and when facts get in the way, you either ignore them or claim they're untrue when they're not...

We're here to debate, not to proselytize.

You aren't debating. You're mindlessly spewing "J3BUS LUVS U AND FORGAVE ALL YUR SINS!!!11one" at least half the time.

Again, you see, it's not the difference of opinions but the general unconstructive, degenerating way of a person's debating (if you call it that) style that makes me think, hmm...they are not being trolls so obviously, but are in essense creating the same effect anyway.

Isnt it your opinion that I am not using logic?

It is your opinion that it is dumb for me to not believe in your logic, the same as it is me to do the opposite.

Rather or not, you find it genius, I will not buy into such things...but is that reason for me to be brought before the courts of allforums? lol.

Again, I'm sorry if you disagree with me....but my opinion on such things arent going to change.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
I will never have any problem whatsoever with people's differing opinions. Not to mention that JJBinks here eagerly participates in most of his arguments. What I see in common among the people I listed which I call "demi-trolls" is the way reasons are dropped, questions are ignored, opposing views are immediately and mindlessly disregarded, and logic misused, on a very constant basis. I feel in involved discussions this behavior will cause ill-tempered and unintelligible posts to pop up a lot more, similar to the result of trolling.

I am not asking Borg to ban him. I addressed this specifically to Borg partly to agree with him on several of his previous posts where he said:

...Yet you, incredibly, continue to insist that the proof for the former doesn't exist, despite the fact that it's been posted ten trillion times on this forum.

...and when facts get in the way, you either ignore them or claim they're untrue when they're not...

We're here to debate, not to proselytize.

You aren't debating. You're mindlessly spewing "J3BUS LUVS U AND FORGAVE ALL YUR SINS!!!11one" at least half the time.

Again, you see, it's not the difference of opinions but the general unconstructive, degenerating way of a person's debating (if you call it that) style that makes me think, hmm...they are not being trolls so obviously, but are in essense creating the same effect anyway. Just for future reference. If someone's "style" is not to your liking, there is a unique feature called the Ignore List. I have a few on my list and i have undoubtedly made my share of these as well with my abrasive "style".

Besides, if you only meant to point something out to Borg, maybe you should have sent a PM instead of saying so through the open forum. I think you were looking for a reaction, personally.

My opinion is that Jere should not be banned at this point.
We all have a choice as to who we reply to.
Often the forum is pretty dry due to the fact that just so much can be said about politics so many times. I hear the same basic-my candidate is better than yours-over and over.
Sometimes it is refreshing to argue a little bit with Jere.
It is not my choice, but I vote to keep him among us for now.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Just for future reference. If someone's "style" is not to your liking, there is a unique feature called the Ignore List. I have a few on my list and i have undoubtedly made my share of these as well with my abrasive "style".

Besides, if you only meant to point something out to Borg, maybe you should have sent a PM instead of saying so through the open forum. I think you were looking for a reaction, personally.

(Every forum should have at least one bafoon.)

Originally posted by Perry5
(Every forum should have at least one bafoon.)

Oh the ironee...:D

lol!

Come on... If Jere goes the only person left to argue with will be Trav! We'd have to get TAF back just for the entertainment value!

:eek:

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Oh the ironee...:D LMAO Vile! :lolhit:

What it boils down to is the attitude. Christians believe that they know with absolute certainty that god exists and that Jesus loves us and that he died for our sins and all the other proclomations that their religion makes.

What they fail to understand that their certainty is based on FAITH, not logic, not science, not evidence. Pure faith. And that is OK for them. But when they start to tell those of us who don't buy into believing these proclamations on faith alone, those of us who use science and logic and evidence to evaluate and make determinations about ourselfs and our environment, they are being dismissive of our "beliefs". It is disrespectful to dismiss our belief in logic and science.

When you say Jesus died for my sins, it is insulting to me. I don't believe in sin. I don't believe in jesus and I don't believe that someone who doesn't even know me has any right speaking about my so called "sins". It is a holier than thou attitude that is rude, impolite, offensive and disrespectfull.

Christians can believe anything they want, but they have no right to caste the veil of their beliefs onto those who do not want it. Their attitude that they are right and therefore are doing good when spewing their rhetoric is false. I know they do this partially because they feel a need to proselytize. However they would do much more for attracting people to their faith if they led by example and dropped the holier than thou attitude. Insulting us only pushes us farther away.

If you really feel a need to save us, just go pray quietly for our souls. Talk to your god about our supposed sins, don't talk to us. We don't believe in your version of the magical sky fairy or as you call it, god.

Originally posted by Perry5
(Every forum should have at least one bafoon.)

Sorry but I think I beat jerejere out on being the bafoon in this forum. Heck, trave also comes in ahead of him.