Out of all the Universe, how can god have more than a nano-second to pay attention to Earth much less any individual on it? He's got a lot more things to worry about than if you missed your last confession, or that your car broke down. Why should we consider ourselves more important than anything else going on in the Universe?

Second, if he doesn't like the choices we make, why does he give them to us? Wouldn't that be like the robber giving the clerk the choice to either give him the money or be shot?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Out of all the Universe, how can god have more than a nano-second to pay attention to Earth much less any individual on it? He's got a lot more things to worry about than if you missed your last confession, or that your car broke down. Why should we consider ourselves more important than anything else going on in the Universe?

Im sorry. I missed the memo that said you were now keeping track of God's priorities. Its alwful funny to me the bible says that god knows everything that is going on in the universe. He knows everything about us, and everything outside our planet in the universe. He knows how many hairs we have in our head, and he knows each star by name.


Second, if he doesn't like the choices we make, why does he give them to us? Wouldn't that be like the robber giving the clerk the choice to either give him the money or be shot?

I think you mean why doesnt he like our sins.

And sin originated when Eve ate the apple. It was not God's plan originally for their to be sin, but that changed when she ate the apple, thats why we have it today.

You know one thing i find a lot on this site is people giving God human traits. What you must realize is God is IT, for lack of a better word. He knows all, sees all, etc. He has NO LIMITS. I would think that the same people who can "conprehend" how we could eventually be created from a primordial goo, something that makes NO sense to myself, could think that God is much more than any of us can comprehend and/or compare to. Thats why a man cannot answer an " If I were God" question rationally, because us humans really have no clue...

Absolutely James! Great Post.

God is IT.

He is so much greater than us, and more than we can ever hope for or imagine. He is perfect in all things. He is God.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
I would think that the same people who can "conprehend" how we could eventually be created from a primordial goo, something that makes NO sense to myself
Just because it makes no sense to you does not make it so...maybe educate yourself on the subject of evolution and it will make more sense to you.

I believe he was referring to the fact that people can believe in that and not in God, is something that he nor I can begin to explain.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I believe he was referring to the fact that people can believe in that and not in God, is something that he nor I can begin to explain.
I keep hearing "belief" in evolution...I don't believe in evolution. I don't have faith in evolution. The fact is: EVOLUTION IS SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Its not scientific fact.

There is no "Darwins Law of Evolution." Its a theory.


And besides.

We chose to believe the word of God...and you chose to believe the word of Charles Darwin.

*shrugs*

Originally posted by BorgHunter
The fact is: EVOLUTION IS SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Well no, it is a theory. Mind you it's a theory backed up with monumentally overwhelming piles of very convincing evidence. :D

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Well no, [evolution] is a theory. Mind you it's a theory backed up with monumentally overwhelming piles of very convincing evidence. :D

Then why can't anyone provide any?:confused:

Originally posted by UnCoolDuck
Then why can't anyone provide any?:confused:

Here is a nice article on the basic concept of Evolution:

The Short Proof of Evolution
by
Ian Johnston

[This document is in the public domain and may be used, in whole or in part, without charge and without permission, by anyone, provided the source is acknowledged. Last revised in July 2001]

We live, we are constantly told, in a scientific age. We look to science to help us achieve the good life, to solve our problems (especially our medical aches and pains), and to tell us about the world. A great deal of our education system, particularly the post-secondary curriculum, is organized as science or social science. And yet, curiously enough, there is one major scientific truth which vast numbers of people refuse to accept (by some news accounts a majority of people in North America)--the fact of evolution. Yet it is as plain as plain can be that the scientific truth of evolution is so overwhelmingly established, that it is virtually impossible to refute within the bounds of reason. No major scientific truth, in fact, is easier to present, explain, and defend.

Before demonstrating this claim, let me make it clear what I mean by evolution, since there often is some confusion about the term. By evolution I mean, very simply, the development of animal and plant species out of other species not at all like them, for example, the process by which, say, a species of fish gets transformed (or evolves) through various stages into a cow, a kangaroo, or an eagle. This definition, it should be noted, makes no claims about how the process might occur, and thus it certainly does not equate the concept of evolution with Darwinian Natural Selection, as so many people seem to do. It simply defines the term by its effects (not by how those effects are produced, which could well be the subject of another argument).

The first step in demonstrating the truth of evolution is to make the claim that all living creatures must have a living parent. This point has been overwhelmingly established in the past century and a half, ever since the French scientist Louis Pasteur demonstrated how fermentation took place and thus laid to rest centuries of stories about beetles arising spontaneously out of dung or gut worms being miraculously produced from non-living material. There is absolutely no evidence for this ancient belief. Living creatures must come from other living creatures. It does no damage to this point to claim that life must have had some origin way back in time, perhaps in a chemical reaction of inorganic materials (in some primordial soup) or in some invasion from outer space. That may well be true. But what is clear is that any such origin for living things or living material must result in a very simple organism. There is no evidence whatsoever (except in science fiction like Frankenstein) that inorganic chemical processes can produce complex, multi-cellular living creatures (the recent experiments cloning sheep, of course, are based on living tissue from other sheep).

The second important point in the case for evolution is that some living creatures are very different from some others. This, I take it, is self-evident. Let me cite a common example: many animals have what we call an internal skeletal structure featuring a backbone and skull. We call these animals vertebrates. Most animals do not have these features (we call them invertebrates). The distinction between vertebrates and invertebrates is something no one who cares to look at samples of both can reasonably deny, and, so far as I am aware, no one hostile to evolution has ever denied a fact so apparent to anyone who observes the world for a few moments.

The final point in the case for evolution is this: simple animals and plants existed on earth long before more complex ones (invertebrate animals, for example, were around for a very long time before there were any vertebrates). Here again, the evidence from fossils is overwhelming. In the deepest rock layers, there are no signs of life. The first fossil remains are of very simple living things. As the strata get more recent, the variety and complexity of life increase (although not at a uniform rate). In all the countless geological excavations and inspections (for example, of the Grand Canyon), no one has ever come up with a genuine fossil remnant which goes against this general principle (and it would only take one genuine find to overturn this principle).

Well, if we put these three points together, the case for evolution is air tight. If all living creatures must have a living parent, if living creatures are different, and if simpler forms were around before the more complex forms, then the more complex forms must have come from the simpler forms (e.g., vertebrates from invertebrates). There is simply no other way of dealing reasonably with the evidence we have. Of course, one might deny (as some do) that the layers of the earth represent a succession of very lengthy epochs and claim, for example, that the Grand Canyon was created in a matter of days, but this surely violates scientific observation as much as does the claim that, say, vertebrates just, well, appeared one day out of a spontaneous combination of chemicals.

To make the claim for the truth of evolution in this way is to assert nothing about how it might occur. Darwin provides one answer (through natural selection), but others have been suggested, too (including some which see a divine agency at work in the transforming process). The above argument is intended, however, to demonstrate that the general principle of evolution is, given the scientific evidence, logically unassailable and that, thus, the concept is a law of nature as truly established as is, say, gravitation. To deny evolution (as defined here) is on the same level of logic as to deny the fact that if someone jumps off the balcony of a high rise apartment and carries no special apparatus, she will fall towards the ground. That scientific certainty makes the widespread rejection of evolution in our modern age something of a puzzle (but that's a subject for another essay). In a modern liberal democracy, of course, one is perfectly free to reject that conclusion, but one is not legitimately able to claim that such a rejection is a reasonable scientific stance.

Wait. If God has no limits as you say, then why is he at war with Satan? Couldn't It just smite Satan? And if God didn't plan on there being sin, why did he have the forbidden fruit? Why put up something so tantalizing if it didn't think she would take it? And, if God has no bounderies, wouldn't he be able to deduce that Eve would take the apple?

Second, they are beginning to discover that primordial goo. I read somewhere that these scientists created a goo that wasn't alive but it did have all of the elements to create life: Carbon, amino acids, ect.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Wait. If God has no limits as you say, then why is he at war with Satan? Couldn't It just smite Satan? And if God didn't plan on there being sin, why did he have the forbidden fruit? Why put up something so tantalizing if it didn't think she would take it? And, if God has no bounderies, wouldn't he be able to deduce that Eve would take the apple?

You mention several paradoxes that are unexplainable by Christian doctrine.

If God were all powerful he could destroy Satan at any time, so either he isn't all powerful or he chooses to let Satan do whatever he wants. Or maybe he's just a figment of our collective imaginations.

If God were all knowing, he would have forseen that Eve would eat the apple and needn't have given her the choice, he could have just created man with the knowledge of good and evil. As a matter of fact he should have forseen the need to destroy the earth with the great flood and created Noah and his family first and saved himself a great deal of time and trouble.

Then again he would be able to forsee the end of the world when everyone will die, and he would know who was going to be judged righteous and be invited to heaven so he could just skip the whole exercise, proceed right to the apocalypse, and put those in heaven he deems worthy and saved himself even more time and trouble. Or maybe he's just a figment of our collective imaginations.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
. He knows all, sees all, etc. He has NO LIMITS.

Not according to the Bible...

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

If he is all-powerful why did he need to
rest?


18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

If God is all-knowing why did he not forsee that it wouldn't be good for man to be alone, and create woman at the same time as he created man, instead of creating woman as an afterthought?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Well no, it is a theory. Mind you it's a theory backed up with monumentally overwhelming piles of very convincing evidence. :D
Well, my general thrust was that scientists tend to consider it fact...but yes, you are correct.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Not according to the Bible...


If he is all-powerful why did he need to
rest?

God was powerful enough to create each and everything on this plant. Each and everything in the skies, and in the deepest, darkest parts of our galaxy.

He by no means HAD TO REST. The bible doesnt teach this, nor do I believe it. He simply rested because he wanted to.



If God is all-knowing why did he not forsee that it wouldn't be good for man to be alone, and create woman at the same time as he created man, instead of creating woman as an afterthought?

I am sure he did forsee it.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Wait. If God has no limits as you say, then why is he at war with Satan? Couldn't It just smite Satan? And if God didn't plan on there being sin, why did he have the forbidden fruit? Why put up something so tantalizing if it didn't think she would take it? And, if God has no bounderies, wouldn't he be able to deduce that Eve would take the apple?



OK, Here we go. God gave us all free choice, right? That includes not only us but the angels. Satan was an angel before he became what he is. Having free will, he could decide what he wanted. Now you will make the argument that God should have destroyed Satan before he became, er...Satan. He could have destroyed Satan, but that wasnt justice. Destroying mankind wouldnt have been just. What satan raised there in the Garden of Eden was perhaps the perfect question. He said that mankind could rule without God. So God gave them a chance to prove it. He could have destroyed them, but the question was still there, for all the angels, etc to hear. What would they think if God wiped out his creation before it had a chance to prove itself? Is that not just? Seeing that God is the only One who can see into the future, he knew it wouldnt work but to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it would fail the only way to show was to let the world continue, albeit with sin and death instead of everlasting life. Adam and Eve chose to side with Satan when they ate of the fruit. And how dare you impute bad motives to God? Is it not fair that he give them some rules? Can he not see if they would obey him or not? ONE rule is all they had to follow. Don't you dare tell me that was injust. And yes, if he chose to, he could have deduced that Eve might take it. But not allowing her that chance would have been the same as taking away her free will, which would not have been justice. Cant you see that?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


God was powerful enough to create each and everything on this plant. Each and everything in the skies, and in the deepest, darkest parts of our galaxy.

He by no means HAD TO REST. The bible doesnt teach this, nor do I believe it. He simply rested because he wanted to.
[/B]


I agree. Can he not rest now? He just created everything. Does he not deserve to sit back and enjoy his work. After you build a...miniature train set, can u not sit back and enjoy watching it work? C'mon people.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
You mention several paradoxes that are unexplainable by Christian doctrine.

If God were all powerful he could destroy Satan at any time, so either he isn't all powerful or he chooses to let Satan do whatever he wants. Or maybe he's just a figment of our collective imaginations.


If God were all knowing, he would have forseen that Eve would eat the apple and needn't have given her the choice, he could have just created man with the knowledge of good and evil. As a matter of fact he should have forseen the need to destroy the earth with the great flood and created Noah and his family first and saved himself a great deal of time and trouble.

Then again he would be able to forsee the end of the world when everyone will die, and he would know who was going to be judged righteous and be invited to heaven so he could just skip the whole exercise, proceed right to the apocalypse, and put those in heaven he deems worthy and saved himself even more time and trouble. Or maybe he's just a figment of our collective imaginations.

i answered your first "paradox"

In fact i answered all of them. Since God gave us all free will he must allow us to choose our respective paths or he is not being fair and just. He must prove to all creation that what he said is right and what he said is wrong is really true. He must show all creation that without his rule, humans cannot make the right decisions and rule themselves. If he gives mankind no chance to prove His point or our point that we can rule ourselves only raises a question in creation, namely, the angels and his firstborn son, as to whether it could have worked? Now u will make the argument that god can wipe their memories clean, etc but at the end of the day, HE would have known, and his perfect sense of right and wrong would not allow that. So I really hope this answered your question.

Now i never said anything about justice or right and wrong. Personally, i don't believe in right and wrong. No one has the right to judge anything. Not even God. But, if he did create right and wrong, he could choose what is right and what is wrong. And why would God have to prove himself to his creations?

Second. By your statements God is very cruel. He doesn't really want us to have free will, he just wants to prove that we shouldn't. And if God knows the outcome, he cannot really give anyone a chance to prove themselves. AND what do you mean prove beyond a reasonable doubt? God is perfect. It cannot be wrong.

Third. I would think that God would be above laziness. More importantly i think he would be above want. I think God would see things as pure logic and not be muddled up by emotion.

Evil Homer your post was ridiculous. God doesnt have the RIGHT to judge HIS creation? WHAT!? God DOESN'T have to prove himself to his creation. I do believe I said something to that effect. Its the fact that he thinks it right to do so that is incredible. And who said God wants to prove that we shouldnt have free will? Can man not freely choose to serve him? Its obvious you completely missed the point and the points within my post. Read it again and think before you post. LAZINESS!!!! BAH!
I can't even believe someone would post such nonsense. And just because something is perfect doesnt mean that questions cant be raised about it. People do it every day. Is God not perfect? Do people not question him?

Very good arguments.

Now, with just as much proof to back up all statements above, lets consider the possibility that it is just a bunch of made up stuff
written by a bunch of smart arabs thousands of years ago.
All proof that the Bible is correct comes from quotes from the Bible itself.

All the prophesys of upcoming events could easily have been written in at any later date after they came about. Who would know the difference?

Interesting that all the religions that came from the middle east have so many similarities. Which was first? Which later Copied the first?

Most religions have a theory of creation, most entirely different. How can you say one is right over another? Most ideas of creation are far-fetched. Shows early mans great imagination.

Everyone argues that his is the only true religion! Hundreds of different ones are available.

God doesnt have the RIGHT to judge HIS creation?
Ahem, free will. He, of all things, should know the consequences of that. Obviously he decided to live with them. Therefore he should not be able to judge us about that, he gave it to us.

God DOESN'T have to prove himself to his creation.
Why not? Again, free will. We make the choice to believe in reason. He is not reasonable. If he gave a half a shit, he'd tell us personally.

And who said God wants to prove that we shouldnt have free will?
You. "He must prove to all creation that what he said is right and what he said is wrong is really true. He must show all creation that without his rule, humans cannot make the right decisions and rule themselves."

Can man not freely choose to serve him?
"Worship me, OR HAVE ETERNAL TORTURE IN HELL!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" - God. Sounds like a choiceless choice. Not really a choice there.

And just because something is perfect doesnt mean that questions cant be raised about it. People do it every day. Is God not perfect? Do people not question him?
If something is perfect there is no reason to raise questions about it. Maybe your god isn't perfect. I still like the child alien science fair joke.

Interesting that all the religions that came from the middle east have so many similarities. Which was first? Which later Copied the first?
Judism was the first "monotheist" religion. That was thousands of years before Islam, Christianity was also before Islam. As for copying... Judism took many of it's stories from local religions. Babylonians had a flood story very very similar to the Jews. Then again, they had a flood story in Central America. But in that one, all they did was stood on the top of their piramid temple things. I think most religions in the world have flood story. They basically all have an identical creation story. Only modern Christians interpret it differently than the other religion ones played out. For the most part, religions are merely the same thing, but with different names and looks to the gods. And a few special gods for certain areas, the greeks didn't have a turkey god or something like that since they didn't have turkeys...

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Destroying mankind wouldnt have been just.

Then why did he have the big flood?

Now there is no need to get all riled up. Im just trying to figure things out here. Im testing all sides of the issue, and I am only responding to the things you stated in your posts.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Now i never said anything about justice or right and wrong. Personally, i don't believe in right and wrong. No one has the right to judge anything. Not even God. But, if he did create right and wrong, he could choose what is right and what is wrong. And why would God have to prove himself to his creations?

God did chose right and wrong. Through his commandments, through the depictions of sin and wickedness demonstrated throughout the bible.

The bible says that all shall be judged according to their works. In other words if you sin, you need to ask God to forgive you of that sin, or you will be held accountable for it.

And God doesnt have to prove anything to anyone. He already has. He gave us his word in the form of the Holy Bible.


Second. By your statements God is very cruel. He doesn't really want us to have free will, he just wants to prove that we shouldn't. And if God knows the outcome, he cannot really give anyone a chance to prove themselves. AND what do you mean prove beyond a reasonable doubt? God is perfect. It cannot be wrong.

There you go thinking you know what God is all about like you are his secretary or something.

There is something you are obviously totally missing and that is the fact that God is not human.

Third. I would think that God would be above laziness. More importantly i think he would be above want. I think God would see things as pure logic and not be muddled up by emotion.

And again...you know what God thinks of things how???

God is not a lazy God. Prayers are answered and miracles happen every day.

Sicknesses are cured every day.

Research breakthroughs happen all the time.

God's work is happening everyday. I for one stand amazed at the power of God, and I am so thankful I serve a God as great as he.

Originally posted by Blibblob

Judism was the first "monotheist" religion.

That may not be true...Zoroastrianism may hold that claim...

Zoroastrianism is a small religion with about 140,000 members. Yet its importance to humanity is much greater than its current numbers might suggest, because:

1. Their theology has had a great impact on Judaism, Christianity and other later religions, in the beliefs surrounding God and Satan, the soul, heaven and hell, savior, resurrection, final judgment, etc.

2. It is one of the oldest religions still in existence

3. It may have been the first monotheistic religion.

The religion was founded by Zarathushtra (Zoroaster in Greek; Zarthosht in India and Persia). Conservative Zoroastrians assign a date of 6000 BCE to the founding of the religion; other followers estimate 600 BCE. Historians and religious scholars generally date his life sometime between 1500 and 1000 BCE on the basis of his style of writing.

He lived in Persia, modern day Iran. Legends say that his birth was predicted and that attempts were made by the forces of evil to kill him as a child. He preached a monotheism in a land which followed an aboriginal polytheistic religion. He was attacked for his teaching, but finally won the support of the king. Zoroastrianism became the state religion of various Persian empires, until the 7th Century CE.

When Arabs, followers of Islam, invaded Persia in 650 CE, a small number of Zoroastrians fled to India where most are concentrated today. Those who remained behind have survived centuries of persecution, systematic slaughter, forced conversion, heavy taxes, etc. They now number only about 18,000 and reside chiefly in Yazd, Kernan and Tehran in what is now Iran. The 1991 census counted 3,190 Zoroastrians in Canada. The actual number is believed to be much higher.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks


God did chose right and wrong. Through his commandments, through the depictions of sin and wickedness demonstrated throughout the bible.

The bible says that all shall be judged according to their works. In other words if you sin, you need to ask God to forgive you of that sin, or you will be held accountable for it.

And God doesnt have to prove anything to anyone. He already has. He gave us his word in the form of the Holy Bible.

There you go thinking you know what God is all about like you are his secretary or something.

There is something you are obviously totally missing and that is the fact that God is not human.



And again...you know what God thinks of things how???

God is not a lazy God. Prayers are answered and miracles happen every day.

Sicknesses are cured every day.

Research breakthroughs happen all the time.

God's work is happening everyday. I for one stand amazed at the power of God, and I am so thankful I serve a God as great as he.

Im not saying he does. I was replying to james' post.

I do not know what god is all about. But neither do you. I am merely on an endevor to find out.

Look, a lot of the stuff you are hittin me for aren't my words and are not my points. I don't think that God would be lazy, I was questioning why god would need to rest on the 7th day.

A God?

We have already answered this.

God, did not need to rest. He did not have to rest. I take it like James said. It was the day when God sat back and just admired his work.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

There you go thinking you know what God is all about like you are his secretary or something.

And again...you know what God thinks of things how???

Jere, you make all sorts of statements about how god thinks and what God wants...what makes you the expert?

Prayers are answered and miracles happen every day.

Give one provable example.

Sicknesses are cured every day.

By God?

Here is God's cure for leprosy, right out of the Bible.

Leviticus 14
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
3 And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper;
4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
8 And he that is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean: and after that he shall come into the camp, and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days.
9 But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.
10 And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, and three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil.
11 And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
12 And the priest shall take one he lamb, and offer him for a trespass offering, and the log of oil, and wave them for a wave offering before the LORD:
13 And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:
14 And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand:
16 And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:
17 And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering:
18 And the remnant of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall pour upon the head of him that is to be cleansed: and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD.
19 And the priest shall offer the sin offering, and make an atonement for him that is to be cleansed from his uncleanness; and afterward he shall kill the burnt offering:
20 And the priest shall offer the burnt offering and the meat offering upon the altar: and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and he shall be clean.
21 And if he be poor, and cannot get so much; then he shall take one lamb for a trespass offering to be waved, to make an atonement for him, and one tenth deal of fine flour mingled with oil for a meat offering, and a log of oil;
22 And two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, such as he is able to get; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.
23 And he shall bring them on the eighth day for his cleansing unto the priest, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, before the LORD.
24 And the priest shall take the lamb of the trespass offering, and the log of oil, and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD:
25 And he shall kill the lamb of the trespass offering, and the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
26 And the priest shall pour of the oil into the palm of his own left hand:
27 And the priest shall sprinkle with his right finger some of the oil that is in his left hand seven times before the LORD:
28 And the priest shall put of the oil that is in his hand upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the place of the blood of the trespass offering:
29 And the rest of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall put upon the head of him that is to be cleansed, to make an atonement for him before the LORD.
30 And he shall offer the one of the turtledoves, or of the young pigeons, such as he can get;
31 Even such as he is able to get, the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, with the meat offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for him that is to be cleansed before the LORD.
32 This is the law of him in whom is the plague of leprosy, whose hand is not able to get that which pertaineth to his cleansing.

If men had believed this and not actually researched a real cure for leprosy, we'd still be afflicted with this terrible disease. God didn't and doesn't cure this disease, men do.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Jere, you make all sorts of statements about how god thinks and what God wants...what makes you the expert?

Pagan,

I'm glad that Ive said something that makes you think, I find myself to be an expert.

But the simple answer is I do not.

Another thing is, I do not make ANY statements about what I THINK god wants or thinks. I have only said what God has laid out in his word.

I do not make assumptions about the lords motives and characteristics based on what a normal man would be like.


Give one provable example.

You want me to try to prove a miracle...to you?

Why should I even waste my time trying to prove something to you....so you can just post in a minute and say..."how is that provable Jere?" like the same ol crap you ALWAYS say.

Miracles do happen every day.

For example. After our church burnt down in January, we bought some pews from a place in New York. A decon, his son, and son and law travled in two suburbans....and on the way there one of them tore up. Eventually the other one began to malfunction and rode at like 30 mphs for several hundred miles.

When they get to the place where they getting the pews...they find out there is no truck to deliver the pews back to Kentucky...so they have to stay there for several days with no ride home.

But then out of nowhere, they get a telephone call that says they just got a truck that didnt get picked up that they could use...but the only problem was it didnt have a clip to pull the suburbans.....then not an hour later, they call back and say the same thing happened again, and they now have a second truck, with a clip they they can also use.

So on the ride home....one of the trucks headlight goes out...and they have to travel a very long way on the interstate with no light....never once getting pulled over.


You see the devil was trying to stop them from picking up those pews...because he didnt want to see our church grow. He knew he were down, but he wanted to take us out. Well the lord didnt have any of that, and miracles happened one after another...and you know what, they got home with the pews safe and sound.

I know just for the sake of your argument youre going to say this isnt a miracle...so go ahead. *yawn*



By God?

Here is God's cure for leprosy, right out of the Bible.


If men had believed this and not actually researched a real cure for leprosy, we'd still be afflicted with this terrible disease. God didn't and doesn't cure this disease, men do.

WRONG.

The only thing doctors and such can do is do what God allows.

Doctors cure people through the knowledges and skills delivered to them from God. Surgerys are performed under the safty of God. Doctors can not tell you when you are going to die. They can not tell you that you have 6 months or anything else to live...only God can. The bible says that even before we are born God knows when our last day will be.

So Doctors know nothing when they tell you when you will live and when you will die.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

Another thing is, I do not make ANY statements about what I THINK god wants or thinks. I have only said what God has laid out in his word.


What about this statement?

Well the lord didnt have any of that, and miracles happened one after another...

Aren't you assuming you know what God was thinking here?


Why should I even waste my time trying to prove something to you....so you can just post in a minute and say..."how is that provable Jere?" like the same ol crap you ALWAYS say.

I thought it was your duty to God to convert the heathens...

For example. After our church burnt down in January, we bought some pews ...(edited for length)...and you know what, they got home with the pews safe and sound.

I know just for the sake of your argument youre going to say this isnt a miracle...so go ahead. *yawn*

Doesn't a "miracle" have to have some element to it that is well...miraculous? You know, burning bushes, parting seas, that sort of thing...

WRONG.

The only thing doctors and such can do is do what God allows.

Doctors cure people through the knowledges and skills delivered to them from God. Surgerys are performed under the safty of God. Doctors can not tell you when you are going to die. They can not tell you that you have 6 months or anything else to live...only God can. The bible says that even before we are born God knows when our last day will be.

So Doctors know nothing when they tell you when you will live and when you will die.

I notice you didn't comment on the Bible's cure for leprosy. Do you think that it will work to cure leprosy?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
What about this statement?


Aren't you assuming you know what God was thinking here?

Absolutely not. I am just saying what happened. I am not relying on my opinion of what happened or what he thought.



I thought it was your duty to God to convert the heathens...

First of all, I dont consider any of you a heathen.


Doesn't a "miracle" have to have some element to it that is well...miraculous? You know, burning bushes, parting seas, that sort of thing...


I notice you didn't comment on the Bible's cure for leprosy. Do you think that it will work to cure leprosy?

Miracles in any form are miraculous.

I think thats the problems with a lot of Athiests. They spend their days waiting for some miraculous event to change their minds about God...when miracles are happening all around them.

Its like on that Jim Carey movie....A kid that says no to drugs and yes to an education thats a miracle, a woman who works three jobs to support her family, and still makes it to her sons soccer game, thats a miracle.

God works through all things.

Absolutely not. I am just saying what happened. I am not relying on my opinion of what happened or what he thought.
Yes you are. That is soley interpretation, opinion. There are lots of things that the bible never said, yet you still believe, through your interpretation of it. You interpret passages differently than they may have meant, the bible is ancient, their way of thinking may never be understood. We have to interpret, and that is opinion, it is not fact.

Its like on that Jim Carey movie....A kid that says no to drugs and yes to an education thats a miracle, a woman who works three jobs to support her family, and still makes it to her sons soccer game, thats a miracle.
I agree those are miracles, but they aren't god's miracles. Those are based off of human free will. God didn't make you do it. They chose it.

Here is a story told by a woman, demonstrating an amazing miracle.

I apologize for the length, especially, in that I am usually weary of long posts, but if you are interested in this whole idea of miracles, you may want to read this.

This began when my mother passed away. She had been suffering from dementia at a young age, then developed some complications and became gravely ill. She had a stroke, and was largely paralyzed. She hadn't known us for the past year, but near the end, her mind cleared up to know us. She could not talk, barely could move, but she REACHED for us, and her eyes connected fully with us, showing us her love, and showing us she followed us. She could understand us more than in the past three years. This was a blessing for all of us, and I know it was by God's grace that she was allowed to think more clearly. And, someone at the nursing home had brought a radio into her room on the evening of her death, and had placed a Christian station on. I thank that person.

After she was gone, we had to make funeral plans, and we needed to find passages and hymns. We weren't totally sure which hymns she would like, but we chose "A Mighty Fortress is Our God", since it is the "theme song", if you will, of Lutherans. We knew she KNEW that hymn, so it made sense to use it. My daughter chose "Jesus, Remember Me, When You Come Into Your Kingdom". That had meaning and was sweet – for my little 5 year old to choose for her Grandmother. Then we didn't know which other hymn. My father remembered a hymn in Finnish that she liked, but he had no idea of its English words or tune. He said some of the words in Finnish, did a rough translation, and my sister (who does not go to church, is absolutely not familiar with a Lutheran Book of Worship, and probably has never opened one up) picked up the Lutheran Book of Worship, flipped straight to a page, and began reading the words of a hymn, "For the Beauty of the Earth." She showed the book to my father, and asked if that was the song. He read it and said it was the English words of the hymn. How she flipped right to it with no clue is a testimonial of God's direction. The song was a very appropriate song. The service was beautiful.

In the meantime, we decided to cremate her, to set her free and not locked in a box. She had been locked up in that body, trapped in the dementia for too long. We wanted her to finally be free. The dilemma we had is where to place to her ashes. My sisters and I thought of places she loved. In Colorado Springs, in the mountains near our old cabin, in Finland (her birthplace). They felt perhaps in the mountains, near our cabin we grew up at. On the way to the funeral, while driving, very, very strong images were put into my mind. They showed the place in the mountains, on a cold winter day, snow melting, cloudy, gray, and very, very lonely. It told me she was not to be placed there. Then I saw images of her friends, us, sunny days, her homes over the years, and Pikes Peak. It was very strong. It told me she was to be on Pikes Peak, overlooking her homes and her friends, and her family (one sister still living there). She would be remembered, not forgotten. We can visit the spot, but more importantly we can look at that majestic mountain and identify it with her. I can see it nearly every day in the distance on my drive. My other sister, who is out of state, has so many photos of Pikes Peak that she can look at those and think of Mom. Plus, there are quite a few photos in different places of Pikes Peak and that will allow us all to think of Mom as we see them. Her friends will remember her when they look at the mountain. So I told my sisters, before the funeral, that Mom needed to be on Pikes Peak, and why. One sister said she was pushed to think about Pikes Peak that morning, as well, but didn't connect it. So it was unanimous – her ashes would be placed on Pikes Peak, in a good place to overlook her familiar areas. It felt right. It felt like she would be at peace.

Then, our church had its annual Thanksgiving pie social on the eve of Thanksgiving Day, one year later. It was one year on the night that Mom died. I decided church would be a place of comfort that evening, so we went. What happened that night gave me amazing peace. During the service, the bell choir played a song on the bells, "For the Beauty of the Earth". I was moved, and looked at my watch – the time was THE time they Mom's estimated death. I knew it was a message, to tell me she was at peace. It was too peaceful and too much to be any coincidence. It was a message. When I told my sisters, one of them reminded me that Mom used to collect bells (and she had a passion for bells), so how appropriate the song was, to be played by the bell choir (not to mention sparing me having to sing the words on such an emotional evening). I know there were messages from above – there is no question in my mind. It is NOT "coincidence" – not this many times, all those specific things.

Shortly ago, on Mother's Day, at church, the first song of the day was "For the Beauty of the Earth" - a strong reminder of my mother and her peace. Then also "Jesus, Remember Me" was played and sung in the service. I think it was another message to make me think of her, and to let me know she is at peace, and may be watching over us.

On the service just prior to her birthday, the readings, the gospel lesson, and Sunday school class, were all in some way relating to the story of Lydia (which was my mother's middle name, Lyydia). I don't think there has been that much concentration on a single person in one service plus Sunday school, other than Jesus, of course - so I thought it might be another push of a message for me, to think of her, and to know her birthday is coming. To let me know she is in some way with us.

This year, Thanksgiving fell on the day my mother passed away - and we went to the Thanksgiving Eve service on the evening prior. In that service, the choir sang "For the Beauty of the Earth" and it was done differently but the words were the same, so I received comfort once more. Then it occured to me - the "push" we got to use that song in the funeral - what was the reason? Is it a custom that our church presents that song in some way every year? Was that why there was a "push" for it, so I will be reminded and comforted each year? Or is it that the choir director gets a "push" each of the last two years to include it in the service? I don't even think I will ask her if it's a yearly tradition - I know it's a miracle either way, and still a sign of comfort.

I am convinced there are many more messages for us, if we listen and notice. We discount so many messages, but they are there. You might have to try to be more aware, and get that "coincidence" thinking out of your head. Once you accept, I think you'll notice more. It's there, if you accept and notice and listen (sometimes using other senses, as well). There is no way anyone will convince me this wasn't a message.

Uh, Jere? That's no miracle...that's a church playing a song...if the woman came back to life two years after her death, that would be a miracle...

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Uh, Jere? That's no miracle...that's a church playing a song...if the woman came back to life two years after her death, that would be a miracle...

LOL....Good one borg...

I imagined the only response I would get would be a cheap pun.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I imagined the only response I would get would be a cheap pun.
Uh...pun? That wasn't a pun...perhaps you should look up the definition of pun? While you're at it, look up the definition of miracle...one would think someone in AP English would know the meanings of these words...but oh well, you have Jesus, you don't need no newfangled learndin', right?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

God works through all things.

Was this supposed to be an answer to the cure for leprosy question?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Uh...pun? That wasn't a pun...perhaps you should look up the definition of pun? While you're at it, look up the definition of miracle...one would think someone in AP English would know the meanings of these words...but oh well, you have Jesus, you don't need no newfangled learndin', right?

Ok, while I go grab my dictionary...:rolleyes:.....

Heres another testimonial of a miracle.

I would like to share with you a true story about what the Lord recently did for me. This was definately a miracle of God and nothing short of it.

I am a 22 year old single mother of 2 children, I am also a student and a part-time office assistant. Last summer my car insurance went way up and I found that I could not afford to make the monthly payments at that time, but I also could not imagine my life as a single parent without a vehicle. At that time I was not walking with the Lord and decided to break the Law and continue driving without insurance until I could afford it. Well, in September the Lord called me back to him and I started to get to know him again. Things seemed to be going really well because I had just gotten hired as an office assistant so I could have a little more spending money. In the back of my mind I thought about what I was doing and thought about getting caught but I ignored my conscience and kept on driving.

Well on October 30, 2002, I was turning left into a parking lot when a car slammed into mine and it was automatically my fault because I was turning left. Neither myself or the other girl who was involved were hurt, thank goodness, but I was in deep trouble. I gave the girl my phone number and she was going to the nearest police station to report it and I said I would go as soon as possible. My car was wrecked and I was devastated because I knew the minimum penalty for driving while uninsured was $2800.00. A week later my dad drove me to the nearest police station to report the accident. I balled as the Sargent gave me the ticket and informed me that I had to appear in court on December 17, where they would decide my punishment.

The next month and a half were very challenging because I had to take cabs and rely on my parents to help me get groceries and take my kids to the doctors and I lived pretty far from my family members to, so everything was a major hassle. On top of that my dad would come once a week to take me to get groceries and would be drunk so it was very scary taking the risk and going with him, put I just prayed the Lords protection over us. I was also starting to feel really helpless and down because I did not have the money to fix my car or could not afford insurance because it would go way up because of the ticket that I got. But also at that time I started learning about how to praise God for everything in our lives and I started to do it and the Lord started to work in my life.

December 17, rolled around very soon and the night before court I said to the Lord, "Thank you that my life is in your hands, that everything that happens is your will and for your Glory, Father I praise you for this ticket of mine and I ask that you would provide me with the strength that I need to face this, even if it means not being able to drive for 3 years, I praise you that you take care of me and provide all my needs, I thank you for the Judge and for the court tomorrow, In your name amen."

On the bus the next morning all the way to court I praised the Lord and praised him walking into that court building too!! When it was my turn I walked up to the window where the Justice of the Peace was and gave her my ticket. Then she asked me, "Brandi, what would you like to do with this?" and I replied, " Well I'm guilty." Then she responded, "Okay hold on a moment while I go retrieve your file." A few minutes later she returned and called me over, " Hey, Mrs. Morin, this ticket is quashed." And I said, "Excuse me? What does that mean?" Annoyingly she answered, " It means your free to go, this ticket is invalid because whoever wrote it up made a error so it is quashed." I was absolutely stunned walking out of that court room and filled with joy and praise as I whole heartedly awknowledged and thank the Lord. Things like this do not happen everyday and I truly believe it was the Lords will and that we cannot understand exactly how he works. Now I know that in his time the Lord will provide a way for me to continue driving again, and I have learned to give thanks and praise him no matter what as long as I trust in him.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Was this supposed to be an answer to the cure for leprosy question?

No...but as far as your question goes, if the bible says it will cure it, sure, I believe it.

So a woman got a ticket for driving without insurance...and the officer writing the ticket made an error. Please tell me...what the hell happened to free will? God just all of a sudden suspended it in order to give this woman a break when she did not deserve one? Huh? Sounds more to me like you're reading WAY too much into that...plenty of similar incidents happen all the time, complete with zealous Christians being accused...except the officer doesn't make a mistake and the zealous Christian pays the consequences.

On that note, braise the Lord! 450 degrees for 45 minutes, season to taste.

NOTE TO JERE: That was a pun.

and like most of your jokes...it wasnt funny :D

On the contrary, I found it quite hilarious...and you didn't answer me about the free will...

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
No...but as far as your question goes, if the bible says it will cure it, sure, I believe it.

Ok...if you were to get leprosy, heaven forbid, would you have someone do the bird and blood ritual or would you go to a hospital and get some antibiotics?

I would pray about it, and do what the lord led me to do.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I would pray about it, and do what the lord led me to do.
Faith healing? Good God man, do you still live in the 16th century?!

Again.....I would pray about it, and do what the lord led me to do.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Again.....I would pray about it, and do what the lord led me to do.
For your sake, I sure hope "the lord would lead you" to a doctor...

Whatever the lord would lead me to, I know it would be the best possible choice.

"Ah, the cliff, such a wonderful view."

:rolleyes:

For your sake, I sure hope "the lord would lead you" to a doctor...

:woohoo:

L M A O

Yay. Healthy debate on unhealthy subjects!

Reminds me of a joke everyone's probably heard:

There's a huge flood, and this guy finds that he has to sit on his roof, because the rest of his house is underwater. He prays to God to rescue him. Soon a man in a boat shows up and offers to take him to safety. "No, go on, God will save me." Soon, another man with a boat comes by, but his answer is the same - God will save me. Finally, as the water is about to completely cover the roof, a third boat comes by, but the man's answer is the same. The man is swept away by the rising water to his death. When he reaches heaven, the man asks God why he didn't save him. God says "I sent you three boats!"

Yeah...see that kinda joke isnt bad.

I can laugh at that. Theres nothing blasphemous about it. Its simplistic and funny.

... I have no words to express what my mind is thinking...Vile can u help me find a word or twenty?

Originally posted by Jwjames111
... I have no words to express what my mind is thinking...Vile can u help me find a word or twenty?


Gee james...I'd really like to help...

lol i was just kidding. Jere, your views are quite interesting...

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Whatever the lord would lead me to, I know it would be the best possible choice.

haha! beautiful.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I can laugh at that. Theres nothing blasphemous about it. Its simplistic and funny.

OK, but did you notice a moral of the story in there anywhere?