After all......at one time (before the present oil-wars), Republicans thought it was pretty cool to arm & train fundamentalist-Islamists against Russians!! (http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/anatomy.htm)

"Casey's visit was a prelude to a secret Reagan administration decision in March 1985, reflected in National Security Decision Directive 166, to sharply escalate U.S. covert action in Afghanistan, according to Western officials. Abandoning a policy of simple harassment of Soviet occupiers, the Reagan team decided secretly to let loose on the Afghan battlefield an array of U.S. high technology and military expertise in an effort to hit and demoralize Soviet commanders and soldiers. Casey saw it as a prime opportunity to strike at an overextended, potentially vulnerable Soviet empire."

It's lookin' like the Islamists are ready to rock with ANY overextended, potentially vulnerable empires."

It's no wonder Lil' Dumbya had so little to say about the strike in Beslan! The terrorists were implementing our expertise!!!!

Great job, NeoCons!!!!!!!!!:@@:

Wow....you're still here?

Originally posted by silverbulletkc
Wow....you're still here?
Wow....you're still oblivious??

Good to see you again Shaman.

Sure the american administration has a responsibility in training and supporting muslim fundamentalists in Afghnanistan, but I have never been aware of a similar thing with Chechnya. There may be some links between chechnyan resistants and other muslim groups of course, but it seems to me that this is mostly Putin's propaganda in order to link them with Ben Laden and "International terrorism" and to get support for his dirty war.

Originally posted by Mr. Shaman
Wow....you're still oblivious??
To the fact that you're the same parrot you've always been? no.
To anything else...doubtful.

.....Oblivious to what anyway?

Originally posted by astrapol2
Good to see you again Shaman.

You can't be serious. :@@:

Jesus, you read my mind Lionel...

shaman has a very narrow focus. everything bad that happens in this universe is because of the reagan republicans. and by god he always has a link to prove it!!

Originally posted by astrapol2
Good to see you again Shaman.

Sure the american administration has a responsibility in training and supporting muslim fundamentalists in Afghnanistan, but I have never been aware of a similar thing with Chechnya. There may be some links between chechnyan resistants and other muslim groups of course, but it seems to me that this is mostly Putin's propaganda in order to link them with Ben Laden and "International terrorism" and to get support for his dirty war.
Hey.......in the NeoCon-world........bu$ine$$ is bu$ine$$....... (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp#TheSpoilsofOils)

"A major oil pipeline carries oil from fields in Baku on the Caspian Sea and Chechnya toward the Ukraine. Grozny has a major oil refinery along this pipeline. For Russia it is important that the oil pipelines and routes they take so oil can be sold to the western markets also meet their needs. However, there are various pipelines in discussion that does not involve Russia.

Major Western oil companies and the American government managed to keep out Iran from the picture. In addition, by also getting oil pipelines routed through Georgia, Russian influence was reduced. As a result, Russia want to do what they can to control the spoils, while the West do the same, leaving Chechnya in the middle being fought for by the two."

ya, this elaborate pipeline conspiracy has been floating around for a long time, it would almost sound good if it wasnt so full of shit

Originally posted by silverbulletkc
To the fact that you're the same parrot you've always been? no.
To anything else...doubtful.

.....Oblivious to what anyway?
You mean oblivious IN what way???

How 'bout........oblivious to the world around you.........with no political-input I've ever heard!

Originally posted by Travh20
shaman has a very narrow focus. everything bad that happens in this universe is because of the reagan republicans. and by god he always has a link to prove it!!
It's a gift!!! :D

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, this elaborate pipeline conspiracy has been floating around for a long time, it would almost sound good if it wasnt so full of shit
Those of you, who have as much curiosity as the Idiot Bush-son, will never know.

Believe it, or not, this business (http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_bloodandoil.html) has been going-on MUCH longer than your war-stories.........but, you have to be literate to stay on top of things.

Have you considered a GED???? :rolleyes:

Shaman posts a topic --

~ 12 replies by wingers, all of which are no more than name-calling and none of them on topic. Not one iota of serious debate.

OK, I understand, Rush didn't tell you what to say yet. The least you could do is parctice your ABC's -- Always Blame It on Clinton.

ROTF

Dop

You can't be serious, Dop. Do you want us "wingers" to post inane rants of Uber conservatives to have them debated? I seriously doubt it, and if we did, it would have roughly the same impact this stooge's articles do.

Just a couple of things:

A) We (western civilization) built the goddamned refineries in the first place. Oil just so happened to be their birthright by virtue of the fact that they inhabited the land before we developed a use for the product they had readily flowing beneath their feet. Consequently, we made their respective, dictatorial governments extremely wealthy by purchasing their surpluses. As a matter of fact, it’s the only real industry those collective countries have, so having moral qualms over the fact that we're there because we have a vested interest, is useless.

B) The money garnered from the needent invasion of Iraq was to supply and provide, not only oil, but also a presence there, which was of paramount importance to securing our financial and social interest. In other words, we've looked to ultimately procure order in a primitive region that's been at war with itself since the dawn of recorded time. These heathens need to be moderated if the developed world is to survive on a commodity that just so happens to runs the planet and occupies the same territory they do.

C) Thwart the potential spread of terrorism by nipping the issue in the bud because our intelligence administration let us down by providing erroneous data that made us look bad on a world-wide front. This was most likely due to the fact that we had NO PRESENCE there, and couldn't accurately assess just how rampant the actual threat of impending terrorism was.

These reasons have been brought up by us "wingers" before, and are dismissed by you people, because, collectively, you all have a major social agenda with a side of moral guilt. Get real. There's your f**king ABC's...

serious debate and Shaman in the same sentance deserves one of these: :rolleyes:

And that's precisely what Dop was bitching at us "wingers" for not doing.

I'm starting to believe that rational debate with some of the libs here is totally futile anyway. From now on, I'm referring to a select few of them as cut-and-paste monkeys. ROTFLMAO :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Travh20
serious debate and Shaman in the same sentance deserves one of these: :rolleyes:

Coming from you this is almost hilarious.

I have a lot more serious debates then shaman. but from a guy who is glad to see shaman again what can we expect?

No kidding...

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Shaman posts a topic --

~ 12 replies by wingers, all of which are no more than name-calling and none of them on topic. Not one iota of serious debate.

OK, I understand, Rush didn't tell you what to say yet. The least you could do is parctice your ABC's -- Always Blame It on Clinton.

ROTF

Dop
Check their campaign-hardware.

They're fairly easy to identify.

http://www.democracymeansyou.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/but-clinton-300.gif

Originally posted by The Praetorian
You can't be serious, Dop. Do you want us "wingers" to post inane rants of Uber conservatives to have them debated? I seriously doubt it, and if we did, it would have roughly the same impact this stooge's articles do.

Just a couple of things:

A) We (western civilization) built the goddamned refineries in the first place. Oil just so happened to be their birthright by virtue of the fact that they inhabited the land before we developed a use for the product they had readily flowing beneath their feet. Consequently, we made their respective, dictatorial governments extremely wealthy by purchasing their surpluses. As a matter of fact, it’s the only real industry those collective countries have, so having moral qualms over the fact that we're there because we have a vested interest, is useless.


BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lemme guess.......you're NO HISTORY-MAJOR!!!!!! (http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_bloodandoil.html)

"At the war’s end, private interests hopeful of exploiting the region’s oil urged their governments to ignore war-time promises to Arab leaders. A variety of small, divided Arab states would be much easier to maneuver into oil deals than a large, independent Arab republic. The European powers agreed. France assumed control of Syria and Lebanon. Britain took Palestine and Mesopotamia. London granted local control to kings and sheiks favorable to British interests. These arrangements were ratified by the League of Nations; Britain’s Palestinian colony was officially a League "Mandate."

Britain backed up its plans for the new oil-rich nations with military might. A nationalist revolt demanding the promised independence quickly spread throughout Iraq. The British army mustard-gassed Shia rebels while the Royal Air Force bombed the Kurds. (Winston Churchill, then Secretary of State for War, recommended dropping mustard gas on the Kurds, too.)

The opening up of Palestine to Jewish settlements, meanwhile, served imperial strategy by furthering division in the region and by establishing a beachhead for British interests.

In January 1952, democratic elections produced a majority for a grassroots political party, the National Front. The Shah had little choice but to appoint Dr. Mohammad Mossadeq, a National Front leader, as prime minister.

A reformer with years of public service, Mossadeq was European-educated and pro-American. (He led a post-war fight to deny the Soviet Union oil concessions in northern Iran.) Mossadeq considered foreign control of his country’s oil riches as a barrier democracy and independence. His government nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Co., to the joy of the Iranian people and horror of corporate executives and policy-makers in Britain and the U.S.

Britain took its grievance to the UN, but got no satisfaction. So Britain imposed an embargo on Iranian oil and other economic sanctions. After two years of economic hardship, Mossadeq considered selling oil to the Soviet Union. This, and his government’s cooperation with the left-wing Tudeh ("Masses") Party, gave the new Eisenhower Administration an excuse for action. The Central Intelligence Agency received authorization to jointly organize a coup with British secret service to destroy the democracy movement and restore the power of the Shah."

All together, now........."WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA....WHY DO THEY HATE US???? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!"

eisenhower administration??? WTF?

Originally posted by The Praetorian
And that's precisely what Dop was bitching at us "wingers" for not doing.

I'm starting to believe that rational debate with some of the libs here is totally futile anyway. From now on, I'm referring to a select few of them as cut-and-paste monkeys. ROTFLMAO :rolleyes:
I'll take that designation over ignorant, ill-educated, white-trash NeoCon-cretins, any day.

You people (who feel your opinions are worthwhile, merely because you still draw breath) are a joke.

Much like Porky Limbaugh & Annie "Bones" Coulter, you make-up shit (with no basis in truth or documentation), and try to sell it as facts.

Ya' got nothin'!!!!!!!!!!! :hitout:

Originally posted by Travh20
I have a lot more serious debates then shaman.
Oh, please.........endlessly talkin' about yourself is considered debate (in your little world)!!!!!!!! ;)

LOL, yes, I talk about myself non stop shaman. seems your the one obsessed with my service, or lack there of in your opinion

Originally posted by Travh20
eisenhower administration??? WTF?
WHOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I keep forgetting there are people (here) who HAVE no recollection of history, prior to the Reagan-debacle. (http://www.usa-presidents.info/eisenhower.htm)

Yeah........how 'BOUT that??!!!! We've been fuckin' with the folks, in the Middle East, for DECADES!!!!!!!!!!!!

You really should try crackin' a book, from-time-to-time. Your ignorance is showing........:rolleyes:

ya, i know who eisenhower is, I am just suprised you deviated from the "its all BUshs fault" line of thought you cant seem to escape

Lemme guess.......you're NO HISTORY-MAJOR!!!!!!

In your brief diatribe of my assessment, you didn't even come close to refuting my original point, which helps confirm my belief that you're undoubtedly a partisan pansy who wouldn't know how to digest fact unless it was spoon fed to you by totally whacked out, extremeists. Thanks for the 'heads-up' on the ignore feature, bone head. (Not that I needed much warning...but I digress anyway.)

ignorant, ill-educated, white-trash NeoCon-cretins
Hey, brainiac...

Just so that you're aware, it's uneducated, not ill-educated, but because you had to be somewhat original with that little barb, I'm guessing you couldn't reference one of your whack-job sites to help you sound like you knew what the fuck you were talking about. BTW, was that faux pas ironic, or is it just me?

Originally posted by The Praetorian

Consequently, we made their respective, dictatorial governments extremely wealthy by purchasing their surpluses.

Except that these "dictatorials governments" have usually been put in place by our western democracies precisely to make sure they would keep on providing us with cheap oil.

Mr Shaman pereclty addressed your post with his reply about Iran and Mossadegh.
A similar story took place in Iraq with Saddam Hussein, who was put there with the help of the CIA.

"TPAJAX. This was the code name of the operation, run by the CIA and British intelligence, that in 1953 overthrew the elected Mossadeqh Government in Iran. A recently declassified review of the operation written by senior CIA personnel candidly discusses the reasons behind the coup: the Iranian Government's supposed support for communism and desire to gain control of the oil industry._


What is so important about this document is that the CIA helped stage two coups in Iraq, in 1963 and 1968, for almost identical reasons as the 1953 Iran operation; both times it helped the Ba'ath party secure power in its wake. In the first coup, the CIA literally broadcast the names of suspected communists from a clandestine radio station in Kuwait, thousands of whom were summarily murdered by the new regime. The second coup brought to the center of power a young but equally ruthless Saddam Hussein.


The history of US support of the Ba'ath party is crucial to help us understand why we did such good business with Saddam while he routinely gassed Kurds and invaded Iran, and why it was only when he overplayed his hand vis-à-vis older and more valuable clients we went to warnot to oust him, but rather to restore the "status quo ante" in which the surrounding regimes would be in fact more dependent on us for their survival._


Indeed, the TPAJAX history should be required reading for all high school students and teachers precisely because it teaches us how the most enlightened democracies repeatedly violate their professed ideals."


(http://www.tikkun.org/index.cfm/action/current/article/154.html)

I could name half a dozen dictators in Africa similarly put in power by France.

You can always unearth historical facts to show their relative injustices, but in the practical light of current happenings, we have to rely common sense. Everyone’s so quick to point out the malfeasance of our country and our officials, but the truth be known, we’ve made life for all industrialized nations better because we’ve helped develop the industry so crucial for technological advancement and economic prosperity. In short if it weren’t the US or Great Britain who exploited weaker people, someone else would’ve done it, and that’s historically guaranteed. If you like to use history as a barometer, then there’s a lesson that wasn’t left out of the books.