OK, we know that russia has suffered a rash of ilamic terror violence in the past week, an dcurrently there are 300 children being held hostage by islamic terrorists who threaten to kill 50 of them for every one of them killed, and kill 25 for every one of them wounded. These terrorists obviously know they are going to die, and obviously dont care. So what would you doas the russian government? you have been attacked 3 times in the past week, and now 300 kids are on the verge of being executed by these terrorists, who have nothing to lose.

I think the time has come for the russians to play hardball. doing nothing obviously hasnt worked, negotiations wont work. they need to get planes in the air loaded down with bombs and circle chechyn cities, tell the terrorists for every child they kill a chechyn city will be leveled. It is sad but that is what is has come to. these irrational terrorists with nothing to lose have brought it on themselves and their country.

trav, I don't believe the terrorists care what happens to their home country, fellow citizens, or themselves. Remember that to them all that die in the cause is going to be rewarded by their God. That is a tough belief to contend with.

Education is the answer. Will be slow. But, is the only hope.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell

Education is the answer. Will be slow. But, is the only hope.

I agree...not only education for them, but for us as well.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I agree...not only education for them, but for us as well.

Pagan, if nothing else, you get points in my book for your liberal consistency :D

Originally posted by Travh20
Pagan, if nothing else, you get points in my book for your liberal consistency :D

Trav, there is no doubt that there are Muslim fundamentalists who are bent on destroying what they perceive as the "christian west", but do you really think that the best solution is to agree with them and declare holy war?

You propose the following:

I think the time has come for the russians to play hardball. doing nothing obviously hasnt worked, negotiations wont work. they need to get planes in the air loaded down with bombs and circle chechyn cities, tell the terrorists for every child they kill a chechyn city will be leveled. It is sad but that is what is has come to. these irrational terrorists with nothing to lose have brought it on themselves and their country.

I find it amazing that you accuse the Muslim terrorists of being "irrational" and at the same time propose killing thousands of innocent people in retaliation for the killing of one child.

Doesn't that make you more irrational than them?

BTW, you made the blanket statement that "negotiation won't work"...why?

its not irrational to resort to svage force when all of your other options are exhausted. I assume you know the russians didnt ask for this. these terrorists are holding hundreds of little kids hostage NOW. they demand the release of yet even more terrorists. what the hell is russia supposed to do? you cant reason with theses people, they are already good as dead, and dont care. Russia has been hit 3 times in the last week. the fact they havent bombed and the attacks keep happening shows the terrorists are not retaliating. anyway, you never answered, what would you do pagan? educate them?

Oh yeah, the answer to everything. Education. The only thing radical muslims want to learn is how to build a bomb or fly a plane into a building, killing as many civilians as they can. And people like Pagan consistently defend these pieces of garbage, trying to put the blame on our country because we are not "educated" enough to understand their plight.

Originally posted by HaVoK
And people like Pagan consistently defend these pieces of garbage, trying to put the blame on our country because we are not "educated" enough to understand their plight.

And people like you and Trav, think that the only answer is more violence, which is precisely why we are in the position we are in now.

Violence begets more violence. Always.

Btw HaVok, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't say I defended these people, unless you can back that up with a quote.

To answer your question Trav, the current situation involving the terrorists holding the school in Chechnya, is probably well past the point where negotiation is possible. There is little doubt that this particular situation will end violently.

Once this situation has resolved itself however, something must be done to try and bring the two parties to the negotiating table or further incidents like this are inevitable. Military retaliation will do nothing to solve the problem regardless of how emotionally satisfying it may be.

Education comes into play for them as well as us so we may learn to live together. I know that HaVok and perhaps even you Trav, don't want to hear even one suggestion that the US may hold some of the blame for the attitudes towards the US that some of these Muslim extremists have, but it is true nonetheless. We have consistently dealt with Muslim nations, and other "third world" countries, as though we were dealing with "inferiors". We have propped up corrupt regimes that were "friendly" to us regardless of the consequences to the citizens of these countries, all the while preaching about "freedom" and "democracy". From the Spanish-American War to the present we have consistently allowed corporate interests to influence our foreign policy, so that when we invaded foreign countries, ostensibly to free the oppressed people, we merely replaced one oppressor with another. Look at Cuba, the Phillipines, Haiti, and many other countries that we have invaded over the last 100+ years, and you will see that we haven't been about the business of freeing oppressed peoples, we have been about the business of business, specifically, and exclusively, "American" business.

Our current President says "they're evil", "they hate us for our freedom", or "they hate our lifestyle". Wrong. They hate us because we've taught them to hate us. We've taught them that we will not treat them fairly, as equals, we will exploit them for their labor, and their resources. We will enrich our country with little or no regard for the people we supposedly support. But you don't have to take my word for it, just pick up a history book.

The bottom line is...either we all learn to live together in peace, or we all die together in war.

how does US foreign policy come into play in countrys such as russia and kashmir and the philipines and dozens of other small conflicts where islamo-fascists are trying to destroy their neighbors? while it is not correct to totally discount any effect our foreign policy may have, it is also wrong to discount the fact that some of these islamic groups have no intention of ever negotiating or do it for any other reason then they feel they are doing gods work

Originally posted by Travh20
how does US foreign policy come into play in countrys such as russia and kashmir and the philipines and dozens of other small conflicts where islamo-fascists are trying to destroy their neighbors?

US foreign policy doesn't come into play in all cases, but we can learn from the examples that we see in other countries. The Chechens have traditionally been treated rather shabbily by the ethnic russians and this goes pretty far back in their history. This has given the islamic fundamentalists a ready made group of disenfranchised people who are easy to recruit into extremist groups. The same can be said for islamic groups in the Phillipines who have been treated as second class citizens by the predominantly Catholic majority.

while it is not correct to totally discount any effect our foreign policy may have, it is also wrong to discount the fact that some of these islamic groups have no intention of ever negotiating or do it for any other reason then they feel they are doing gods work

No doubt some of these groups do feel that they wish to die for Allah, and in the most extreme cases all you will be able to do is oblige them. In the majority of cases however, the people who join these groups do so out of desperation in an attempt to redress legitimate grievances.

There is some validity in saying that the roots of this conflict are religious, but often the religion is the excuse that masks an underlying reason.

Originally posted by Vilepagan

Btw HaVok, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't say I defended these people, unless you can back that up with a quote.

Education comes into play for them as well as us so we may learn to live together. I know that HaVok and perhaps even you Trav, don't want to hear even one suggestion that the US may hold some of the blame for the attitudes towards the US that some of these Muslim extremists have, but it is true nonetheless.


The bottom line is...either we all learn to live together in peace, or we all die together in war. Your own quote points to exactly what i spoke of. Here you are within ten sentences saying exactly what i was talking about. For some reason, some people in our country dont want to accept the fact that no one but OURSELVES are responsible for our actions. If i were to go out tommorow and commit some atrocity against another human being, it is my responsibility, I am the one who should be punished and held accountable for my actions.

See, I am talking about actions, not attitudes. I really dont care about attitiudes. A bad attitude never broke a bone. Actions do.

I know im being politically incorrect with this statement, but i feel it is true. There will NEVER be peace on earth among all of humanity. Never has been, never will be. Doesnt mean we have to condone the violence, or even accept it when it happens. Im just acknowdedging that it is going to happen.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Your own quote points to exactly what i spoke of. Here you are within ten sentences saying exactly what i was talking about. For some reason, some people in our country dont want to accept the fact that no one but OURSELVES are responsible for our actions. If i were to go out tommorow and commit some atrocity against another human being, it is my responsibility, I am the one who should be punished and held accountable for my actions.

Well I'm not one of those people. I believe that anyone who engages in terrorism should be held accountable, but I also believe our government should be held accountable for how it deals with foreign governments.

See, I am talking about actions, not attitudes. I really dont care about attitiudes. A bad attitude never broke a bone. Actions do.

Attitudes lead to actions.

I know im being politically incorrect with this statement, but i feel it is true. There will NEVER be peace on earth among all of humanity. Never has been, never will be. Doesnt mean we have to condone the violence, or even accept it when it happens. Im just acknowdedging that it is going to happen.

You may be right, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the consequences of our treatment of other countries.

It would seem to me that education is a long term solution to a crisis that is right now in front of us. Terrorism cannot be tolerated, negotiated with or bargained with. One doesn't attempt to reason with a rattlesnake. The terrorists are international criminals needing to be eliminated.

Right, we must deal with the extremist that now confront us in whatever manner it takes.
At the same time we must put in every effort to educate the people these extremist are drawing into their hate. If we can deal with the terrorists and at the same time weaken their supply of recruits we can defeat them.
We are far outnumbered by their potential recruits. We cannot kill all of them if we wanted to. If the hate continues to excalate we can have a situation on our hands that we can not win.

Turns out they did decide to play pretty hard ball. What does everyone think about that?

Originally posted by Vilepagan





Attitudes lead to actions.


[/B] Fine. Sometimes my boss does things that really piss me off. Does that mean that he is partially responsible if i go out and blow someones head off with a shotgun?

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
Turns out they did decide to play pretty hard ball. What does everyone think about that? Sadly, that seems to be the only way to deal with these fanatics.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Fine. Sometimes my boss does things that really piss me off. Does that mean that he is partially responsible if i go out and blow someones head off with a shotgun?

Really bad analogy HaVok.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Really bad analogy HaVok. Why?

Originally posted by HaVoK
Why?

Because I don't think terrorists do what they do because they're a little ticked off... if your boss had invaded your country, armed a police force to keep you in line, oppresssed your religion, set up an economy that kept you in poverty and eliminated any chance to work your way out from under his thumb...if you had then taken your shotgun and kidnapped some hostages in an attempt to force your boss to listen to reason, and make some reforms...that might be a better analogy...

turns out there were arab mercinaries mixed in with the chechyns.

Originally posted by Travh20
turns out there were arab mercinaries mixed in with the chechyns.

Yep, like I said, anywhere people are desperate and angry, you'll find Muslim extremists preaching their sermons of terrorism, and finding people ready to listen.

Seeing those blood covered children, panic stricken and fleeing for their lives was, and is an utterly revolting experience. At the same time hearing commentators fill in with descriptions of how the captives had been kept in a single gymnasium without food or drink, without any chance to use the bathroom. How the captors had segrated them according to sex and age, and had constantly been beating and maltreating the men and older boys. That gymnasium must have been like a level in Dantes Inferno!
Nothing can justify or excuse neither such treatment nor the resulting bloodbath. Nothing!
Here in Denmark we had a resident Chechen political refugee; said to be an unofficial spokesman of the Chechen resistance, on television almost crying crocodile tears as he condemned the hostage taking of innocent children. Then in the next breath laying the blame on Putin and the Russian aggression in Chechnya, and also reminding us; by-the-way, that the pupils in the school were mainly ethnic Russians and the children of ranking members of the Russian community. As if that was any excuse! It must be said in all fairness that his comments were made just prior to the events at the school. But he was back again for comments as the events unfolded…and again the crocodile tears were evident, together with comments that the Russian forces were somehow responsible for the debacle because they started shooting into the compound.
My God, what were the soldiers on the ground to do? Just stand by and permit the terrorists to shoot down the escaping children? That is one political refugee I’d like to see handed over to the tender mercies of the Russian FBS.
So what’s next?
Well let’s see!
The perpetrators both during and at the end of the siege, acted like savage beasts without the slightest sense of morality or pity. Like savage beast they went for the weak and the helpless. Like cunning savage beasts, once they have discovered a new easy prey, they tend to return to it.
So it doesn’t take a Cassandra to figure out we’ll se more of the same brand of attacks in the future.
How will we respond? Turn our schools, playgrounds and entertainment centres into armed camps? What an appalling legacy for our kids and grandkids!

It seems the Russians have always been heavy handed when confronted with a rebellious situation. They take not negotiating with terrorists not only in letter but in spirit of response as well. Sends a fairly clear message to anyone wanting to play that game: believe strongly enough in your cause to die for it. A bit savage perhaps, but it works for them.

the russians are a lot tougher then we are. 250 people to them is nothing, look what they endured in WW2

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Because I don't think terrorists do what they do because they're a little ticked off... if your boss had invaded your country, armed a police force to keep you in line, oppresssed your religion, set up an economy that kept you in poverty and eliminated any chance to work your way out from under his thumb...if you had then taken your shotgun and kidnapped some hostages in an attempt to force your boss to listen to reason, and make some reforms...that might be a better analogy... Obviously you and i will not see eye to eye on this. I find very little difference between the two. I guess thats because i focus on the results while you want to phsycho analyze the terrorists to find out who made them do it.

Who cares? The reasons why these terrorists took hostages became a moot point with the first hostage death. After that, the best you can hope is to attempt to save as many innocent hostages as possible and kill every last terrorist involved in this horrid act.

What Russia needs to do is to stop the genocide that is taking place in Chechnya and started back with Stalin.
Ah, Mr Putin should also limit the budget of the Department of Defense. While he buys the best war equipment Russians are starving. He's the terrorist.

ya, the people cutting off heads and kiling children are not the terrorists. no wonder spain folded after the terrorists hit

Originally posted by HaVoK

Who cares? The reasons why these terrorists took hostages became a moot point with the first hostage death. After that, the best you can hope is to attempt to save as many innocent hostages as possible and kill every last terrorist involved in this horrid act.

I agree that what these terrorists did was horrid, and once the hostages were taken you must concentrate on ending the crisis and the terrorists as well, but if you continue to ignore the cause of the terrorism it will never end.

so if you were dictator of the world and had absolute say over everything there would be no terrorism pagan?

Originally posted by Travh20
so if you were dictator of the world and had absolute say over everything there would be no terrorism pagan?

Doubtful. There would always be someone who didn't agree with me. Perhaps when I outlaw the Republican party and force you to vote "liberal" you'll take a few ACLU lawyers hostage and try to stop me. :D

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, the people cutting off heads and kiling children are not the terrorists.
In case you didn't know, Russian soldiers cut Chechens' ears and heads. Do some research on that.


no wonder spain folded after the terrorists hit [/B]
Spain didn't fold. When the war started 91% of Spaniards were against war, according to polls. I went to all the demonstrations against war and I can assure you there were lots of people there.
The terrorist attack was on March 11 and we had elections on March 14. PSOE, which had always been against war won. The former government made many mistakes and people were tired of it. Spain didn't fold, all we did was kicking out the party who took us to a war when 91% of us were against it.
Now, if you think that even though 91% of us were against war the government of Spain did a right thing (against democracy) I guess you are not so in favour of democracy.

yes, I am agasint democracy and the russians are the real terrorists. you are really in touch with reality :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Travh20
yes, I am agasint democracy and the russians are the real terrorists. you are really in touch with reality :rolleyes:

I make my points but it doesn't look like you have any to reply to what I said.

yes, I am agasint democracy and the russians are the real terrorists. you are really in touch with reality
The russians are terrorists. The arabs are terrorists. The Americans are terrorists. Every invader has been a terrorist, every rebel has been a terrorist, every rebellion has been an act of terrorism. American Revolution, overthrow of British rule by terrorists(Brittan didn't consider our congress to be an actual lawful governing party, thus, not a war). French Revolution, overthrow of French rule by terrorists. Russian Revolution, overthrow of Tzar rule by terrorists. Cuban revolution, overthrow of dictatorship rule by terrorists. War of pigs, direct act of terrorism. Vietnam, terrorist action. Some people claim those to be wars, they were not declared as such. Some claim them to be wonderful breakings of chains of slavery. Vietnam was a police action, what did the Vietnamese think of it? Such acts of cruelity and violence are terrorists actions. The muslims were not the first terrorists. What else did you notice about all of those terrorist actions? They were fighting against something. In their minds it was something good, in the minds of their opponents, unlawful. History is written by the victors.

Originally posted by Blibblob
The muslims were not the first terrorists.
No they were'nt!
But they are the present enemies. The radicals and fundamentalists at least.
Their view of society are totally at odds with Western democratic values.
That is one sure fire foundation for inevitable conflics.

You missed my entire point, didn't you?

Originally posted by Travh20
yes, I am agasint democracy and the russians are the real terrorists. you are really in touch with reality :rolleyes:

She makes a lot better points than you do Trav...all you do is make sarcastic remarks...:hitout:

its no coincidence that you think that she makes better points then me and agree with her though :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Travh20
its no coincidence that you think that she makes better points then me and agree with her though :rolleyes:
It's no coincedence he thinks she makes better points than you when you oftentimes make none, rather you choose to indulge in ad hominem attacks.

you can no more talk sense into someone who thinks terrorism is justified then you can into the terrorists themselves. its only good that people like this are not running the war on terror.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
She makes a lot better points than you do Trav...all you do is make sarcastic remarks...:hitout:

And use the rolleyes emoticon. :rolleyes:

okk wahat good points has she made pagan? she is just saying its the russians fault they are gettign terrorized. whats so good about that? her reasons are the russians terrorize the checens, so they get terrorized back. no deatails how, except that they cut off heads and ears. saeriuosly, what is so good about those points besides the fact that you agree with them?

No trav, she said that was one of the reasons why the Russians are being targetted. No details how? So cutting off peoples ears and heads is not graphic enough? Okay trav, how would you like having your child and wife's head cut off in front of you? That's what's going on. That's what goes on all over the place and to many people, not just a few American soldiers in other countries, but to whole families.

give me a break, you know what I meant. some 15 year old on a forum saying russians are cutting off checen kids head doesnt make it so. the fact is, you all think she makes better points then me because you agree with them. I am sure people who agree with me will say I make better points then her.

Originally posted by Travh20
okk wahat good points has she made pagan?

1. What Russia needs to do is to stop the genocide that is taking place in Chechnya and started back with Stalin.

2. In case you didn't know, Russian soldiers cut Chechens' ears and heads.

3. Spain didn't fold. When the war started 91% of Spaniards were against war, according to polls. Spain didn't fold, all we did was kick out the party who took us to war when 91% of us were against it.

4. I make my points but it doesn't look like you have any to reply to what I said.

That's 4 good points she made...

she is just saying its the russians fault they are gettign terrorized. whats so good about that? her reasons are the russians terrorize the checens, so they get terrorized back. no deatails how, except that they cut off heads and ears. saeriuosly, what is so good about those points besides the fact that you agree with them?

The points are good because she is presenting an argument and facts to support it. You, on the other hand, have resorted to the tired tactic of criticizing the debater instead of the debate, by making sarcastic remarks, and as Lionel pointed out, using the "roll eyes" emoticon ad nauseum.

She is quite correct when she says that the russians have terrorized the chechens since Stalin's time. Another example:

As Human Rights Watch further reported, in April 2001, “the U.N. Commission on Human Rights adopted a resolution on Chechnya that condemned serious human rights violations by Russia's forces, and raised concern about forced disappearances, torture, and summary executions. Sponsored by the E.U., and with strong U.S. backing, the resolution called for U.N. special rapporteurs to investigate these abuses in the war-torn republic and for credible criminal investigations by domestic agencies into all human rights and humanitarian law violations. Russia rejected a similar resolution adopted by the commission last year, and refused to comply with its requirements. It has vowed to do the same this year.”

In May 2001, they also reported that Russian authorities covered up evidence of extra-judicial executions.

Here is a link to an excellent site with information about chechnya. Very up-to-date it mentions all the latest terrorist attacks.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp

I just pop in this thread and widh to say :
This dreadful terrorist attack and its bloody conclusion put me in a state of SORROW and ANGER.
Sorrow for the hostages, their family and relatives and even the whole russian people.
Anger towards Putin and the russian military who obviously DON'T GIVE A DAMN about people's lives.
Yes, I know - the terrorists are the first and main responsibles for this tragedy. I am not discussing that.

But how can a responsible govt deal with such incompetence, arrogance, deception and cynism with the life of its citizen ? In the USA or western Europe, in Japan, Israel, Australia or Thailand, the main purpose of the authority would have been : avoid a bloodbath. Negociate, and have a proper action plan if things turn bad. Use a small team of men who have the proper training for situation whith civilians hostages.

Here, everything shows that the soldiers and special forces lacked the proper training, coordination, and most of all a plan, to get the hostages from this hell.
I hope Putin and its corrupt mafia govt will meet the terrorists in hell for this.

fine, so are you saying these terrorists have legitamate politcal goals and taht they are somehow justified in their actions? you see, all of these points do not really mean anything unless you are trying to say something.

Thanks Vilepagan :), by the way... nice web page about Chechnya. I'm going to have a look now.

Originally posted by Travh20
fine, so are you saying these terrorists have legitamate politcal goals and taht they are somehow justified in their actions? you see, all of these points do not really mean anything unless you are trying to say something.

Trav, these people do have legitimate political goals, but no, nothing justifies the murder of innocents.

The point I'm trying to make is that while the Chechen terrorists are not justified in taking such actions, the Russian government is not an innocent victim here. The only innocent victims are the civilians caught in the middle of a brutal war. Civilians are routinely murdered by both sides in this gruesome conflict, and if it seems like I'm on the side of the terrorists, I'm not, I just don't like to see anyone blame the terrorists for all the carnage. If in fact the US is committed to fighting all terrorism, then we should be condemning the Russian government, as well as the Chechen terrorists.

I highly recommend you check out the page I linked to, it is not that long, and contains a lot of good information about the roots of this conflict, and how it is likely to effect the future.

What currently happens in Chechnya is gruesome. I really wish western countries had the guts to make pressure on Russia to end theses atrocities.

I cant believe what i am hearing here.

Trav, what you're hearing is that genocide is wrong, should be stopped, and produces equally violent reactions in the people it effects. why are you so dumbfounded by this?

it seems there is token revulsion to the act commited by the terrorists, and that the major effort in this thread is to accuse the russians of bringing this on themselves. I should not be suprised though. Ever hear the song Sympathy for the Devil? you should listen to it sometime

Originally posted by Travh20
it seems there is token revulsion to the act commited by the terrorists, and that the major effort in this thread is to accuse the russians of bringing this on themselves. I should not be suprised though. Ever hear the song Sympathy for the Devil? you should listen to it sometime

Trav, you are convinced that people support the terrorists even after they emphatically state they don't. Try reading what people post without your preconceived notions interfering with your judgement. What part of the following statement do you disagree with?

The point I'm trying to make is that while the Chechen terrorists are not justified in taking such actions, the Russian government is not an innocent victim here. The only innocent victims are the civilians caught in the middle of a brutal war. Civilians are routinely murdered by both sides in this gruesome conflict, and if it seems like I'm on the side of the terrorists, I'm not, I just don't like to see anyone blame the terrorists for all the carnage.

I really wish western countries had the guts to make pressure on Russia to end theses atrocities.

Isn't it ironic how the Europeans demonstrate against the US when we "stick our noses where we have no business" and then they call for intercession in whatever other matters suit them?

I would like to ask a question to the Spanish girl that is posting:

Is it not true that Spain was going to keep the same party in power until the terrorist bombing occurred? And if so, do you really think it's correct for you to portray yourself and the rest of Spain as changing leadership because of the war? I think you need to retract those statements!

Before Thursday, the Popular Party had been favored to win by a comfortable margin.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/14/spain.blasts.election/index.html

The true fact of the matter is that Spanish voters were heavily influenced by terrorists. Apparently, Spain can be easily controlled by blowing up a couple of hundred people. Do so, and you change their entire foreign policy. No regard will be given to what is right or what is wrong, they will simply comply.

Originally posted by Karankawa
[B]
I would like to ask a question to the Spanish girl that is posting:

That's me ;)

Is it not true that Spain was going to keep the same party in power until the terrorist bombing occurred? And if so, do you really think it's correct for you to portray yourself and the rest of Spain as changing leadership because of the war? I think you need to retract those statements!
That's hard to tell. According to CSIC's polls yes, however those polls are proven wrong most of the time. Polls also said that 91% of Spaniards were against war, and I believe that one because I can just remember one or two people for war of all my friends and acquaintances.
What would have happened if the terrorist attack hadn't happened? I don't know. Anyway, I voted PSOE and I had decided that before the attack.


The true fact of the matter is that Spanish voters were heavily influenced by terrorists. Apparently, Spain can be easily controlled by blowing up a couple of hundred people. Do so, and you change their entire foreign policy. No regard will be given to what is right or what is wrong, they will simply comply.
That is what you say. I don't believe so. As I said most Spaniards were against war. I know that the polls said that PP was going to win, but polls are just polls. I don't know, I can't speak for 40,000,000 people, but I have lived in Spain for 8 years and I have seen PP do a lot of mistakes.

Originally posted by Travh20
it seems there is token revulsion to the act commited by the terrorists, and that the major effort in this thread is to accuse the russians of bringing this on themselves. I should not be suprised though. Ever hear the song Sympathy for the Devil? you should listen to it sometime


Here's what's being said: the terrorisst acts are disgusting, but the genocide of the chechens is equally disgusting. the fact that their people are being senslessly murdered causes these people to react as violently as they do. when people are treated inhumanly, that is how they treat others. the terroirsm isn't unprovoked, but it certainly is inexcusable and horrible. here's a good comparison: vixctims of child abuse are more likely to abuse their own children thna other people. that does not make what they do ok in any way, but it explains their behaviour, what casued it, and a way to deal with the problem. the solution to both situations is to stop the cycle of violence. if the russians stop murdering chechens, there will be no desperate, angry young men for the terrorists to recruite. if everyone is educated, the hatred will stop, and there will be no motivation for people to participate in the efforts of the terrorists.
Trav, what;s being said hear is that the way to solve this is to look at it rationally. violence will only perputuate further violence.

Originally posted by WhammyBar

Trav, what;s being said hear is that the way to solve this is to look at it rationally. violence will only perputuate further violence.

So you're saying that you want to marry a terrorist? I can't believe it!

j/k - hopefully that was obvious.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
if the russians stop murdering chechens, there will be no desperate, angry young men for the terrorists to recruite. if everyone is educated, the hatred will stop, and there will be no motivation for people to participate in the efforts of the terrorists.
Trav, what;s being said hear is that the way to solve this is to look at it rationally. violence will only perputuate further violence.

so this is rational? more like unrealistic.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
violence will only perputuate further violence.
Easier said than done...These Chechens seem pretty hell-bent on fighting for what they want...seems the only peaceful way to end this hostile situation is to make Chechnya a free state...but that too is easier said than done.

Travh, I have a question for you, if you don't agree with us, what do you want then? To punish (keep killing) the Chechens?

Could you explain to me the difference between Russia's Department of Defense and Chechen terrorists? For me, there is no difference between being killed by a soldier who is wearing a uniform and being killed by someone who isn't. Both acts are equally horrible.

well, a suggestion for the terrorists would be this: try killing the people that are killing you instead of making a trip up to russia to kill their kids. if there are russian soldiers executing your family, start with them. then go after the government. starting with civilians and school kids as your prefered target isnt going to win you any sympathy from the russian government or people or the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Travh20
well, a suggestion for the terrorists would be this: try killing the people that are killing you instead of making a trip up to russia to kill their kids. if there are russian soldiers executing your family, start with them. then go after the government. starting with civilians and school kids as your prefered target isnt going to win you any sympathy from the russian government or people or the rest of the world.

Not a bad point Trav, and let me say that I totally agree that the attack on the school is going to backfire badly for the Chechens. That being said, I can understand why they set off bombs and such in Moscow rather than attacking the Russian troops in Chechnya. First of all it discredits the Russian government by showing that they can't protect their own people. Second, it shows the Russians that if they are going to kill Chechen civilians, that the Chechens will return the favor. Third, it doesn't involve a direct confrontation with the Russian military, which the Chechens would probably lose.

pagan, I think if the genocide of chechens by russians was so bad they would not be going to russia to get back at them, they would stay home to protect their families. I know if some army was invading california from nevada I would be at or around my house, not in nevada.

Originally posted by Travh20
pagan, I think if the genocide of chechens by russians was so bad they would not be going to russia to get back at them, they would stay home to protect their families. I know if some army was invading california from nevada I would be at or around my house, not in nevada.

And if your family was dead, or if you weren't the only one available to protect them? Can you see no circumstance under which you might not wish to strike back at the ones who had killed or deported your family, friends and neighbors?

I would strike back, but at the people at my house, and I would strike back at the people who murdered my family, not their kids. why dont they fught them in checenya? did the afghans strike russia or did they defeat them in afghanistan? How many russian schools did the afghans blow up in their fight to defeat the russians?

Originally posted by Travh20
well, a suggestion for the terrorists would be this: try killing the people that are killing you instead of making a trip up to russia to kill their kids. if there are russian soldiers executing your family, start with them. then go after the government. starting with civilians and school kids as your prefered target isnt going to win you any sympathy from the russian government or people or the rest of the world.

I know that sounds much better. Of course, I would love it if they did that. What they did to the kids was horrible. However, I'm sure that if Chechens did that it's because they couldn't do anything else. I mean, if it was so easy to kill the soldiers and get rid of them they would have done that and they would have saved many Russian and Chechen lives. I very much doubt that Chechens are heartless people.

Just find them and rub them out one by one.

I think they should vote for a government that will pull their troops out of Iraq. That way the terrorists will be more likely to target the countries that are working against the terrorists than your own. Screw their people and citizens, just protect your own! Go Spain!

Originally posted by Karankawa
I think they should vote for a government that will pull their troops out of Iraq. That way the terrorists will be more likely to target the countries that are working against the terrorists than your own. Screw their people and citizens, just protect your own! Go Spain!

What do you mean? The ones who screw people are those who went to Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism, oh well, now it does because of the war, not before.

Russia don't want peace in Chechnya.this are why they kill Umar khanbiev because he try to bring UN in Chechnya. the UN are only way for peace because Germany,franceand China will vote for it in assemblée and sécurité conseil.

the UN is always the answer yet they never seem to actually do anything. what the hell good are they besides a nice thing to bring up in a debate?

why are al the leftists so certain that there was no al qeada presence in iraq at all? they are here, in europe, they are everywhere, but they were not in iraq, nope, Saddam would never allow such a thing, WTF? how do the people who insist there were no al qeada terrorists working in iraq or with saddam think saddam was so successful at keeping them out of his country? maybe we should ask him and implement that stategy here in the US.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
However, I'm sure that if Chechens did that it's because they couldn't do anything else. I mean, if it was so easy to kill the soldiers and get rid of them they would have done that and they would have saved many Russian and Chechen lives. I very much doubt that Chechens are heartless people. WHy are some people so quick to give these terrorist pieces of garbage the benefit of the doubt?

I have a question we should all ask ourselves. Could any of you on this forum ever forsee a circumstance where you would intentionally murder children to make a political statement? If you answer no to this question, how could you ever believe you could understand where these terrorists are coming from?

Originally posted by HaVoK
WHy are some people so quick to give these terrorist pieces of garbage the benefit of the doubt?
I will tell you why. Because there is a difference between the way you and me see terrorists. You see them as "pieces of garbage" and I see them as people who fight against something. And I am against that something too. I don't go killing people, probably because I do not live in their extreme situation. I want terrorism to stop, and since I know they have certain reasons to do what they do, I know that the only way to stop it is stopping their reason.

I have a question we should all ask ourselves. Could any of you on this forum ever forsee a circumstance where you would intentionally murder children to make a political statement? If you answer no to this question, how could you ever believe you could understand where these terrorists are coming from?
You're right. My answer to that question is "NO". But it's easy to say what you would do if you were in another situation, however when you are in THAT situation everything changes. My children (I don't have any, anyway) haven't been cruelly murdered by soldiers who are supported by millions of people while the rest of the world looks away, I do not live in an occupied land, I have never starved, I have enough money to buy new clothes every now and then, I have enough money to study at university, my parents are alive, I have two legs and two arms, I've never stepped on a mine, I've never seen anyone die in front of my eyes, I've never seen tanks on the streets...

I am hoping my eyes fool me here.

Are you actually trying to justify the motives for terrorism?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I am hoping my eyes fool me here.

Are you actually trying to justify the motives for terrorism?

Nothing justifies an innocent death, NOTHING. However, there is a reason behind terrorism, that's what I'm trying to explain. In this case, if you want terrorism to stop you have to stop the genocide in Chechnya. So the victims from both sides will stop.

OK,

Well sense these terrorists are cuttings heads off over there and they say their reason is because such and such wont meet certian requirements.

Do you support negotiating with terrorists to save lives?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
OK,

Well sense these terrorists are cuttings heads off over there and they say their reason is because such and such wont meet certian requirements.

Do you support negotiating with terrorists to save lives?

It is not that I support negotiating with them. I am completely against the system in which we live. It is hypocrital, how is it possible that someone cares so much about the death of 200 Russians when some of them support the war in Iraq which has killed many more innocents. Or do you need to wear a military uniform to kill an innocent?

I dont agree with anyone killing anything innocent, nor I do support, even the smallest attempt to justify anything of the support.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I dont agree with anyone killing anything innocent, nor I do support, even the smallest attempt to justify anything of the support.

If you don't mind me asking this question... were/are you in favor of the war on Iraq?

Dont mind at all.

I am dead against the war. I think its been a total unsuccess, and have led to, way too many deaths.

Okay then, good to know. At least we agree on something :D

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
Okay then, good to know. At least we agree on something :D

I think deep down everyone knows thats true, even Bush. Either they do admit it, theyre political subconscience wont allow them to admit it, or they are in denial.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I dont agree with anyone killing anything innocent, nor I do support, even the smallest attempt to justify anything of the support.

I agree with your first statement. And that's prfecisely why you should be as opposed to what the Russian do in Chechnya as you are to terrorists.

Green eyes made a lot of good points. The idea is not to agree or to support terrorists, but to try and understand their motivations.

When Truman decided to drop the atomic bomb on hiroshima and Nagasaki, he knew thousand of innocents people would die as a result of his decision. Hr did it because he thought it would end a bloody war and save many lives from his country. I don't see much difference with terrorism, except that it worked and that much more people were killed !

Originally posted by astrapol2
I agree with your first statement. And that's prfecisely why you should be as opposed to what the Russian do in Chechnya as you are to terrorists.

Green eyes made a lot of good points. The idea is not to agree or to support terrorists, but to try and understand their motivations.

When Truman decided to drop the atomic bomb on hiroshima and Nagasaki, he knew thousand of innocents people would die as a result of his decision. Hr did it because he thought it would end a bloody war and save many lives from his country. I don't see much difference with terrorism, except that it worked and that much more people were killed !

Thanks Astrapol.
And I agree with your last paragraph. Nowadays people tend to see governments as the good side and terrorists as the bad side even though the difference between them is that the first ones have power to do whatever they want (including manipulate mainstream media, and therefore, change people's minds).
I believe that all humans are equal and for that reason we should be together and never justify the death of an innocent. I don't see why people who defend so much the victims of terrorist attacks can be in favour of a war, really:confused:

so do you beleive the terrorists who took over taht school were just mild mannered men driven to violence like in some vigalante movie?

trav, the people that die killing others for terrorist organizations are not organizers, they are recruits. in some cases, families are literally paid to send their children off to become suicide bombers. others are angry and are manipulated by the terrorists to funnel their anger towards their goals. just like governemrnt leaders, terrorist leaders don't like to die for the sake of their causes, and they send other people to do it.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
trav, the people that die killing others for terrorist organizations are not organizers, they are recruits. in some cases, families are literally paid to send their children off to become suicide bombers. others are angry and are manipulated by the terrorists to funnel their anger towards their goals. just like governemrnt leaders, terrorist leaders don't like to die for the sake of their causes, and they send other people to do it. I dont care who they are, what their cause is, how old they are. If you kill innocent men, women, and children, you are nothing but a piece of garbage who deserves nothing more or less than a summary execution.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl

[COLOR=blue]You're right. My answer to that question is "NO". But it's easy to say what you would do if you were in another situation, however when you are in THAT situation everything changes. My children (I don't have any, anyway) haven't been cruelly murdered by soldiers who are supported by millions of people while the rest of the world looks away, I do not live in an occupied land, I have never starved, I have enough money to buy new clothes every now and then, I have enough money to study at university, my parents are alive, I have two legs and two arms, I've never stepped on a mine, I've never seen anyone die in front of my eyes, I've never seen tanks on the streets... You say no, and then you go on to list all these things that havent happened to you that could affect your outlook.

I know i would kill for vengeance. I also know you would condemn someone like me for doing so. Why are you not also condemning these terrorists?

ya, its like, the terroirsts are sort of justified in taking the kids hostage, since russia is commiting genocide and all, but America cant attack iraq since it had nothing to do with 9-11, what did those kids have to do with the fgenocide in chechenya?

ya, its like, the terroirsts are sort of justified in taking the kids hostage, since russia is commiting genocide and all, but America cant attack iraq since it had nothing to do with 9-11, what did those kids have to do with the fgenocide in chechenya?
Dumbass, READ!:
"Nothing justifies an innocent death, NOTHING. However, there is a reason behind terrorism, that's what I'm trying to explain. In this case, if you want terrorism to stop you have to stop the genocide in Chechnya. So the victims from both sides will stop." - Green Eyed Girl

I believe that has been stated for the umpteenth time.

I'm going to have to concur with bliblobb.

let me explain this to you one more time. we're explaining the phsychology, motivation, and oprganization behind the terrorists. if we know why they commit such atrocities, maybe we can make them stop. nobody is excusing their behaviour, we're explaining it, and therefore looking for ways to solve it. by interrupting such a dialouge you are only adding to the cycle of violence and hatred. got it?

that sounds fine in flower land, but the real world is a bit harsher and less forgiving. I really wish we could jsut negotiate our way to world peace, unfortunatly, it will never happen.

Originally posted by Travh20
that sounds fine in flower land, but the real world is a bit harsher and less forgiving. I really wish we could jsut negotiate our way to world peace, unfortunatly, it will never happen.

It's not that the world is less forgiving, the problem is that the world is full of greedy people. That is what starts wars, invasions, occupations, etc. People fight for land and resources, that's what starts it all. Whatever comes next is a consequence.
As long as there are people who think that the world can't change because it's not "Lala Land" it won't change. If people were willing to give up some priviledges and cared more about human life things would change.

Originally posted by HaVoK
You say no, and then you go on to list all these things that havent happened to you that could affect your outlook.

I know i would kill for vengeance. I also know you would condemn someone like me for doing so. Why are you not also condemning these terrorists?

I condemn the terrorists for killing innocents. But I condemn the Russian Government too. I've seen presidents criticizing Chechens, but I'm still waiting to see them protesting against the genocide in Chechnya.

it's not lalaland because too many people don't get off their lazy asses and try to change it. if the people of our country stopped concentrating entirely on obtaining material wealth for themselves and their family, and wokred on making the world a better place, imagine how much better the world would be. but instead, we beelive the lie that we're incapable of doing anything, and live useless lives in which we help noone but ourselves. it's every signle person's responsibility to get out there and change the world, or atleast try, and yet so few people do it.

I agree.

Nothing will happen, unless its made to happen.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
it's not lalaland because too many people don't get off their lazy asses and try to change it. if the people of our country stopped concentrating entirely on obtaining material wealth for themselves and their family, and wokred on making the world a better place, imagine how much better the world would be. but instead, we beelive the lie that we're incapable of doing anything, and live useless lives in which we help noone but ourselves. it's every signle person's responsibility to get out there and change the world, or atleast try, and yet so few people do it.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
It's not that the world is less forgiving, the problem is that the world is full of greedy people. That is what starts wars, invasions, occupations, etc. People fight for land and resources, that's what starts it all. Whatever comes next is a consequence.
As long as there are people who think that the world can't change because it's not "Lala Land" it won't change. If people were willing to give up some priviledges and cared more about human life things would change.

Like I said, in flower land its all fine and dandy. sing along evertbody "imagine all the people...."