It seems our old enemies, the islamic terrorists,a re back at it, this time in Russia. A wave of violence has spread across russia in the past week, blowing up 2 planes, a subway station and holding hostage 300 kids. All of this perpetrated by islamo-fascists. I know many americans dont really care, as they see it as some fight for independence agaisnt our old enemies, but that is incorrect. these guy are with bin laden and al qeada, and are ied into the whole militant islamic movement who want to impose shia law on the world and place our mothers and daughters in burkas. Al qeada sends fighters into Chechneya and Chechneya sends fighters to Iraq. This is more then just some random terrorist acts or just some misguided attempt to gain independence, it is part of a concerted effort to spread radical islam throuhout the world, brought to you by the same expansionist islamic groups who brought you 9-11 and the embassy bombings and a list of death and destruction in the name of allah as long as your arm. this is not due to american foreign policy, or russian foreign policy, it is a result of these crazys who would use radical islam as thier foreign policy, either die or convert.

Originally posted by Travh20
islamo-fascists.... who want to impose shia law on the world and place our mothers and daughters in burkas.....to spread radical islam throuhout the world,..... crazys who would use radical islam as thier foreign policy, either die or convert.

You have missed your calling Trav...you should get a job writing radical christian propaganda.

thi sis no joke pagan. you seem to think its just a passing phase, its serious shit

Originally posted by Travh20
this is no joke pagan. you seem to think its just a passing phase, its serious shit

You are absolutely correct, Trav.:thumbs:

Originally posted by Vilepagan
You have missed your calling Trav...you should get a job writing radical christian propaganda. Travh wasnt calling on followers of God to respond. He made a comment and explained why he felt that way. You are the one who is trying to turn it into "radical christian propaganda".

I don't believe there has ever been a request for us all to 'convert.' It's more of a 'leave us alone' thing.

And Havok, Trav wasn't asking any questions in his post, so it's pretty much an invite for us all to comment on his... comment. ;)

box 19, they are not going to "request" you to convert. and how does flying planes into buildings and cutting off peoples heads and holding children hostage convey a "just leave me alone" attitude? you have been liberlaized and will only realize how wrong you are when some islamo fascist is hlding a knife to your throat screaming "allah akbar, allah akbar!!!"

I believe the events you just listed were in response to the problems in Israel/Palestine, Iraq and Chechnya, respectively. Again, there has never been a call for anyone to convert.

ya, the radical islamics have never wanted anyone to convert :rolleyes: go read a book box

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, the radical islamics have never wanted anyone to convert :rolleyes: go read a book box


Rather than insult my intelligence, why don't you take the time to back up what you just said, Trav. I'm not endorsing the behaviour of these psychos, I just think you're wrong about their aims.

Don't forget that while the world looks away Russia is exterminating Chechens, what do you expect them to do? To say "thank you very much, Mr Putin"? :rolleyes:

there is always someone gullible enough to believe there are valid reasons to kidnap and murder children

Originally posted by Travh20
there is always someone gullible enough to believe there are valid reasons to kidnap and murder children

Yes, that's true: Bush, Sharon, Blair and Putin are good examples.
I do not mean that I agree with what happened in Russia, even more, I am 100% against of it. The thing is that I blame Putin for that, not the Chechens, the Chechens' children have been being exterminated for years and nobody does anything about it. Russians are victims too. Shame on Putin and the rest of the government.

oh so putin ordered those terroirists to storm that school and start shooting children? got any proof of that?

Next time you answer, read what I said before you do it. I didn't say that Putin ordered them to do that, I said that the goverment of Russia has been murdering Chechens for years, that's why they attack this way now. What they did was horrible, no doubt of that, but we have to think "who started it all". If Chechens did it it's because they have to bury their children everyday too.

I am really tired of everyone giving the terrorists a pass for their actions. its never thier fault, they are mearly responding to wrong doings put upon them. whatever.

I am tired of people who just feel sorry about the deaths of innocents that they see on the news, and ignore what the mainstream media doesn't want to mention:

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/chechnya/
http://www.beyond-the-pale.co.uk/chechenya.htm
http://www.gfbv.de/gfbv_e/docus/russ_e.htm
http://www.idee.org/genocideappeal.htm

I think I have seen enough of islamic violence and anarchy to be able to comment on what it is we are talking about. You vcan post al the links to wweb sites you want. I know how these people play ball, and there are no links involved, only death. I have battled muslim militia and al qeada backed terrorists in street fighting on the horn of africa, these guys mean buisness. (hey, if john kerry can bring it, why cant I, right?)

Believe it or not, these people think they have a cause. Unless that cause is addressed, there's no way of stopping them. People generally don't kill for no reason; Green's links prove exactly that. What the Chechen terrorists are doing is unforgivable, but what's been done to them is equally disgusting.

Clearly your time in Africa has given you a very different perspective, and I do respect that, but you can't deny that there are other factors to consider so far as Chechnya is concerned.

Travh, if you want to ignore the fact that Chechnya is being exterminated, do it. But it's a fact.
Now, if you are so concerned about human life be fair and try to understand both sides. You can't blame the Chechens for the deaths of those children and ignore that their children are being massacrated too. Anway, it's up to you :)

you two are hopeless. only when the knife is at your throat will you truly understand. these guys holding these hostages dont give a shit about anyone life, chechens or russians, only allah, and spreading the word. if you want to believe all their thin exucses designed to get weak people like you to attempt to pacify those who would fight them thats your problem.

Originally posted by Travh20
you two are hopeless. only when the knife is at your throat will you truly understand. these guys holding these hostages dont give a shit about anyone life, chechens or russians, only allah, and spreading the word.

Bullshit Trav...you know absolutely nothing about what motivates these people, and you don't want to know, because it might upset your belief that they are just evil.

if you want to believe all their thin exucses designed to get weak people like you to attempt to pacify those who would fight them thats your problem.

You're the one who is weak Trav. You want to take the easy way out, and just proclaim these people evil and kill them, rather than face the hard truth that maybe they do have a legitimate grievance. Making peace is usually harder than making war. Thinking is harder than hating. You accuse others of being weak, when it is you who are succumbing to your fears and lashing out in anger.

fine pagan, they have grievances. that doesnt change the fact that they are murdering children in cold blood. It seems you are lecturing the wrong people pagan.

Originally posted by Travh20
fine pagan, they have grievances. that doesnt change the fact that they are murdering children in cold blood. It seems you are lecturing the wrong people pagan.

Of course what they did was reprehensible, and cold-blooded murder. There is no excuse for what they did, but unless the root cause is adressed it will just continue.

there wil always be grievences and excuses for them to kill infidels pagan. do you think if the palestinians got all they wanted the terrorism wopuld just stop? no, it wouldnt. there will always be excuses, and there will always be people who believe the lies told by terrorists.

Originally posted by Travh20
you two are hopeless. only when the knife is at your throat will you truly understand. these guys holding these hostages dont give a shit about anyone life, chechens or russians, only allah, and spreading the word. if you want to believe all their thin exucses designed to get weak people like you to attempt to pacify those who would fight them thats your problem.

Travh I was talking politely to you, making my point and backing it up. Now you say I'm hopeless and use rude words in your post. I get the type of person you are, when you don't have arguments you insult. If you prefer to ignore reality, do; if you want to ignore that Chechens are being murdered too, do; if you want to ignore the fact that terrorism started because something caused it, do. It's up to you dear.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
Travh I was talking politely to you, making my point and backing it up. Now you say I'm hopeless and use rude words in your post. I get the type of person you are, when you don't have arguments you insult. If you prefer to ignore reality, do; if you want to ignore that Chechens are being murdered too, do; if you want to ignore the fact that terrorism started because something caused it, do. It's up to you dear.


Don't take it personally green-eyed, Trav is like that to everybody...he's really harmless and quite a sweetheart underneath that gruff exterior ::blows Trav a kiss::

BTW...Welacome to Allforums Green-Eyed...:flowers:

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Don't take it personally green-eyed, Trav is like that to everybody...he's really harmless and quite a sweetheart underneath that gruff exterior ::blows Trav a kiss::

BTW...Welacome to Allforums Green-Eyed...:flowers:

I don't doubt that he's a sweetheart, but I think he sounds a bit aggressive in his posts and that's not good. I am sure we can learn more if we keep our cool. And I say it because before I was more aggressive and I've learnt to change that, and it helps.

Thank you Vilepagan :)

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
If Chechens did it it's because they have to bury their children everyday too.
So what is the answer, cave in to terrorists demands? Let them know all they have to do is use soft targets like children, then they'll get through with their demands?
That will open one nasty can of worms!:(

Originally posted by Harald
So what is the answer, cave in to terrorists demands? Let them know all they have to do is use soft targets like children, then they'll get through with their demands?
That will open one nasty can of worms!:(

If you see it from the other point of view... what is the answer that the Chechens should give Russia? My answer is stop the massacre against Chechnya. That's the root of the problem. Leave them alone. That's my opinion.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
My answer is stop the massacre against Chechnya. That's the root of the problem. Leave them alone. That's my opinion.
If this was a perfect world you would be 100% right. But it's not.
The events there have gone too far. Putin can't back down, he's put too much of his credibility into his hard line on Chechnya. Also, and especially now after the events at Breslan, he can't be seen as being soft on terroism.
Right now all we have to look forward to, is a case of lose if you do and lose if you dont!
Life is a b**** at times.

Originally posted by Harald
If this was a perfect world you would be 100% right. But it's not.
The events there have gone too far. Putin can't back down, he's put too much of his credibility into his hard line on Chechnya. Also, and especially now after the events at Breslan, he can't be seen as being soft on terroism.
Right now all we have to look forward to, is a case of lose if you do and lose if you dont!
Life is a b**** at times.

Then what do you suggest? I don't get it. I mean, Chechnya attacked because they have been being attacked for ages. Hate just breeds hate. There are two options: 1. giving independence to Chechnya and leaving them alone and 2. keep killing them, which is what has been happening, and this will make them attack Russia again and again.

By the way, where in Denmark do you live? I was in Copenhagen a few years ago, it was nice there :), I spent there a week and went to Sweden for a day, to Malmö.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
Then what do you suggest? I don't get it. I mean, Chechnya attacked because they have been being attacked for ages.
If I had an aswer to that I'd apply to the position of Sec, Gen. of the UN. I don't! The killing wil go on and on an...!
Like the Isreali/Palestenian conflict it will go on, until both sides are tired of the killing and willing to make serious compromises.
Live in Kastrup, just outside Copenhagen.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Harald
[B]If I had an aswer to that I'd apply to the position of Sec, Gen. of the UN. I don't! The killing wil go on and on an...!
And don't you think that it would be easier (and more decent) to stop killing Chechens?

You can't kill them and expect it to stop. You'll kill a small percentage of them, and then they'll come back with more than they had the first time. It's like ants, you can't kill half of the colony and expect it all to be dead. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Ghandi. Kill one of them, they kill two of you, kill two of them, they kill three of you, and so on. You can't put out a fire with a flamethrower. The sole long term solution is diplomacy and education. Unless you like running in circles.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
And don't you think that it would be easier (and more decent) to stop killing Chechens? [/B]
Yes and yes!!!
But being a diehard pessimist and pragmatist, I know it won't.
Especially with the terrorist climate existing in the world today.
All we can do is hope that it will stay away from our door. A forlorn hope I know, and you know better then most. What with the Metro bombings in Madrid.
Like I said pessimist and pragmatist!!!

Originally posted by Blibblob The sole long term solution is diplomacy and education. Unless you like running in circles. [/B]
The operative word here is long term.
A lot of blood is going to be spilt before that Utopia arrives.
I still beleive it's going to just as much a question of utter exhaustion on both sides as it will be of diplomacy.

Uh, the world really isn't as pessimistic on this as you. You eliminate the reason for the cause, the cause goes away. Even Machiavelli wrote about it. Then again, he also advocated commiting genocide if it continued to get out of hand... good thing we don't live in a monarchy. Regardless, people tend to stop caring if you get rid of the key reasons why it personally affects them. Religion can only take people so far, you also need to have something personal in there. "They're killing your brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, and children." Is one of them. Also what Machiavelli said, "A son can bear with equanimity the loss of his father, but the loss of his inheritance may drive him to despair." So guess what makes them more angry, the fact that we took their land. To solve everything, we have to comply with their demands. In hostage situations here, the police ask the criminal what he wants, then they give it to him, catching him later. The rescuing of innocents is far more important then the loss of ego. We have to stop giving them causes, we have to comply with them at times, and we have to speak to them. We also have to educate their children, not kill them. The key phrase is long term. We cannot work towards short term goals. We did that in the cold war, what did that give us? Our current crisis, that's what it did. We gave our current enemies weapons to fight the enemies we had then. We're going to do it again unless we shape up. I don't want to be going through this again in 30 years.

Originally posted by Blibblob
You eliminate the reason for the cause, the cause goes away.
Did you read the bin Laden letter? As to his aim (cause)? The total elimination of our western democratic way of life and its replacement by an Islamic one. That is his cause and also the cause of the radicals and fundamentalist who follow him, and their numbers are growing daily.

This is where my natural pessimism and pragmatism comes back.

We live in the real world. In the real world there will always be an ample supply of poor and disenfranchised! Who, when they can’t find solace or hope in politics, will look elsewhere. Yesterday it was Marxist dogma; today it’s Islamic dogma, tomorrow???
Grist to the mill of the terrorist makers!
We also have to educate their children, not kill them.
How on earth do you propose to do that? It’s like hearing a Marxist ideologue; sounding off about educating the masses.
When the young are taught in their religious schools and Mosques, to distrust and despise Western influences and lifestyles. Do you envision some sort of fifth-column activity inside the madras’s (religious schools)?
The key phrase is long term. We cannot work towards short term goals Modern society can set long term goals, but rarely keep them. It’s inevitable; unfortunate, but inevitable. It’s part of the price we have to pay for living in a society constantly in flux.
We're going to do it again unless we shape up. I don't want to be going through this again in 30 years. You will!
Being new to this forum, I’ve noticed that everyone is fond of quotations, I’ll paraphrase one that I recall: Unless we study history, we will inevitably repeat the mistakes of the past.

The total elimination of our western democratic way of life and its replacement by an Islamic one.
That is Bin Laden's cause. That in and of itself is not strong enough to hold together an organization of thousands of people. They need a closer reason than that. It has to be personal. The cause of the people is revenge for their home's and their lives being destroyed. Bin Laden merely organized them with that reasoning to further his goals. Eliminate their cause, and his crumbles.

We live in the real world. In the real world there will always be an ample supply of poor and disenfranchised! Who, when they can’t find solace or hope in politics, will look elsewhere.
We created Marxist dogma. The USSR(Not Marxist anyways, Marxism is not very friendly to totaltarians) was founded due to the shitacular place they were living in. Russia was a horrible horrible country, they made it better. MUCH better, it went from a Dark Age country during the Industrial age, to Space age before the Space age. And in our blind fighting against that(Since we created a country not much better than theirs on the personal freedom front, damn McCarthy), we created our dilema now. We gave the weapons and money to Ossama to fight the Soviets. We put Hussein in power and gave him weapons. We put in power most of the Islamic dictators. We disregarded the future to make progress in the now.
The poor and disinfrancised we are currently fighting against, are Islamic. They have religion, and that can be used against them. The USSR was unique out of all previous revolutions because it was an Athiest one, and we had no idea how to combat them on the emotional and informational front. We can combat the Islamics on the religious front, they have disregared their religion. It has been twisted and destroyed. Eventually they will figure that out.

When the young are taught in their religious schools and Mosques, to distrust and despise Western influences and lifestyles. Do you envision some sort of fifth-column activity inside the madras’s (religious schools)?
I envision using rebelious teenagers against them. Everybody questions in their lifetime, for some it is short because others can't get through them before they become indoctrinated again. But with the assistance of alliances within the Islamic front, many of them can be told the truth. We don't have to kill them.

Modern society can set long term goals, but rarely keep them. It’s inevitable; unfortunate, but inevitable. It’s part of the price we have to pay for living in a society constantly in flux.
No, it's not inevitable. Who set long term goals that survived? The people who set up the United States. Athens lasted for centuries under a republic, long term planning. Rome lasted for millenia. We can plan for even longer, it's just people like you, who decide that it's impossible based off of soley cynism, that set us back.

You will!
I don't want to be holding a gun in my hand and shooting children when I'm 30 because my "wise" elders fucked up.

Originally posted by Blibblob
The cause of the people is revenge for their home's and their lives being destroyed. Bin Laden merely organized them with that reasoning to further his goals. Eliminate their cause, and his crumbles.The cause of the people is revenge for their home's and their lives being destroyed. Bin Laden merely organized them with that reasoning to further his goals. Eliminate their cause, and his crumbles.
Let me get this straight. You’re counselling appeasement?
You’re proposing that his radical supporters should be given what they demand?
That his Palestinian supporters should be given their land returned, both the Occupied territories and in Israel itself, which would mean the obliteration of the State of Israel?
That the Chechen Muslims should be allowed to establish a Islamic Republic? What about the ethnic Christian Russians living there? Expel them?
That his Afghan Taleban supporters should be returned to power?
That the Sunni minority should be returned to power in Iraq?
hese are just some of his supporters. Are you really advocating this?
That’s utterly insane
Let’s just say that this came to pass, do you really think that once you had gone down the road to appeasement that the demands would cease. You can’t be that naive?

The USSR(Not Marxist anyways, Marxism is not very friendly to totaltarians) was founded due to the shitacular place they were living in. Russia was a horrible horrible country, they made it better
At a high price!
10 to 15 million dead due to starvation and liquidations and deportations to the Gulags.
70 years with and dictatorship and all that entailed, like secret police political indoctrinations, no free speech. Neighbour spying on neighbour etc., etc…
A very high price.

And in our blind fighting against that(Since we created a country not much better than theirs on the personal freedom front, damn McCarthy).
Get real will you!
In no nation on Earth do people have or demand and are given greater freedom then in the USA.
Yes Joe McCarthy and his HUAC was a blemish. But remember he only tried to circumvent the Constitution. Remember also he was brought to grief by the very system you attempt to denigrate with that vile comment

We gave the weapons and money to Ossama to fight the Soviets
Expediency!
The enemy of my enemy is my friend!

We put Hussein in power and gave him weapons. We put in power most of the Islamic dictators.
See above!

We disregarded the future to make progress in the now.

That is one of the weaknesses of democracies.
They are forced to react instead of acting When they do act like in Iraq, they are also faulted for that. Just as they would have been faulted if they had taken pre-emptive action against Nazi Germany in the 30’s.

We can combat the Islamics on the religious front, they have disregarded their religion. It has been twisted and destroyed. Eventually they will figure that out.
In the meantime we must live with the Beslan, Madrid, WTC?
No thanks!
Root out the terrorists - Eliminate them – Salt the earth so they may not rise again!
Hard-line yes!
Better that then the pictures of blood soaked children fleeing from merciless killers trying to shoot them down in cold blood.

I envision using rebellious teenagers against them. Everybody questions in his or her lifetime, for some it is short because others can't get through them before they become indoctrinated again. But with the assistance of alliances within the Islamic front, many of them can be told the truth.
That might be the only point on which we are in some agreement.
That moderate forces in the Islamic world community will join in the fight against the radical extremists.


No, it's not inevitable. Who set long term goals that survived? The people who set up the United States. Athens lasted for centuries under a republic, long term planning. Rome lasted for millenia. We can plan for even longer…
Again get real will you!
Do you really think that when Jefferson was penning the Declaration of Independence, the document that laid the foundation of your country, he was planning for 50 states? Quite the opposite, he wanted to keep the country small, it was only in later life when he became a federalist he went in for expansion.
Or that the inhabitants of a small village in Greece, actually planned for the city to grow into Athens?
Or when Romulus killed his brother Remus and founded the city of Rome, he had any idea it would one day be the centre of the greatest Empire the world has ever seen?
Long range planning, No!
Plans can be made, but once they are implemented they tend to take on a life of their own.

… it's just people like you, who decide that it's impossible based off of soley cynism, that set us back.
Yes I’m a pessimist, a cynic and pragmatist.
But events have a way of happening that shows that these traits are usually well founded.

I don't want to be holding a gun in my hand and shooting children when I'm 30 because my "wise" elders fucked up.
Who would?
Except homicidal fundamentalistic terrorists.

I have a question: Who do they think will be on their side?These people go in and slaughter alot of children. CHILDREN!! Do they think that Iran or any other nation is going to go "Oh yes, we love those child killers."?

BTW, the reason Russia didn't let the Chechians have their own country back when the Soviet Union fell is because Chechnia has oil. Until every last drop have been sucked out of Chechnia, Russia will still try to hold on to it. So the way to stop the fighting is to give Chechnia what it wants, independance. But they won't do that until every last drop of oil has been sucked out of there and stamped with mark of the Mother Country.

one last thing, Harold, you said
Yes I’m a pessimist, a cynic and pragmatist.
But if you are, how can you ever see a better tomarrow? How can you have hope that people might one day work this out? If that is your vision, then why do anything at all? If you are such a pessimist, then shouldn't anything you do turn out badly? It's a good view so that you can cover any and all circumstances, but one has to be an optimist if he/she hope to make the world better, so that their actions have reason. How could a pessimist do this?

Originally posted by Locke

one last thing, Harold, you said
But if you are, how can you ever see a better tomarrow? How can you have hope that people might one day work this out? If that is your vision, then why do anything at all? If you are such a pessimist, then shouldn't anything you do turn out badly? It's a good view so that you can cover any and all circumstances, but one has to be an optimist if he/she hope to make the world better, so that their actions have reason. How could a pessimist do this? In view of the present state of the world, I think that I'm entitled to be all three. Then when something occures that goes agains those three attitudes, I can be pleasently surprised.
Case in point!
When Muslim girls in France, instead of demonstrating againsT the recently passed legislation, that banned the wearing headscarves in public schools, accepted the ban and went to school sans scarves. Why? Because Islamic fundamentalist in Iraq had taken two French journalists hostage and threatend to execute them if the French government did'nt repeal the law. The Muslim girls in solidarity with the rest of the people of France shed their scarves.
A small victory for moderation.
As well as a pleasent surprise to my cynicism! :)

Originally posted by Locke
didn't let the Chechians have their own country back when the Soviet Union fell is because Chechnia has oil. Until every last drop have been sucked out of Chechnia,


Exactly.

Glad I have one ally in this forum. :p Thank you Green.

Harald, what about Carter helping build homes for people? What about Europe putting their quarrals aside to fight Hitler? What about all of America, democrats and republicans alike, rallying together after 9-11? What about the firefighters and police that have saved numerous lives? What about the soldiers risking their lives to give other's freedom? Are these not signs of the goodness and rightousness of the human heart?

Originally posted by Locke
Glad I have one ally in this forum.
Not quite Locke!
When the USSR imploded in the early 90’s, I for one saw with great delight the former subjugated countries breaking of from this misfostre of an empire. Former client states like the Baltic Republics and yes like Chechnya wanting to attain freedom.
In ’96 when Chechnya achieved almost complete independence it seemed a likely outcome. But then came the Moscow bombings, again yes there are some questions regarding these bombing, but the outcome was that they, and the ensuing war enabled the radical Islamic fundamentalist in and around Chechnya to co-opt the struggle.
These radicals have their own agenda, and it’s not always Chechen independence. When the non-radical nationalists who are fighting a conventional military guerrilla war, are set in the background it leaves the field open for these animals to perpetrate atrocities like Moscow theatre siege and Beslan.
Events that will only increase the influence of the hardliners on both sides of the conflict at the, leaving civilians on both side the losers.
In my opinion peace will only come when both sides become tired of the bloodshed and are both willing to make some hard compromises. But the immediate prospects for that are bleak indeed!

Harald, what about Carter helping build homes for people? What about Europe putting their quarrals aside to fight Hitler? What about all of America, democrats and republicans alike, rallying together after 9-11? What about the firefighters and police that have saved numerous lives? What about the soldiers risking their lives to give other's freedom? Are these not signs of the goodness and rightousness of the human heart?
When I said that I’m a pessimist, I guess that I should have qualified that with that I’m also a realist.
Yes I’ve heard of Carters Heritage project. I can pass on to you a little story about it that should confirm you belief in the goodness of man. On a trip over to the States, I was having dinner with some friends of my family. In the course of the dinner conversation my host casually mention that he was putting in a couple of week-ends each month helping to build houses for low income black families. In itself while kind and laudable endeavour, it non the less came as a surprise to me.
Why? Because while he is a kind and generous person I know for a fact that he has very upper-middle-class WASP racial-prejudice. You know the kind – “I don’t mind them, but I wouldn’t want my son or daughter to marry one!”But getting back to the story, when I asked him about his change of attitude, he replied that he was too old to change, but his Heritage work was a good and Christian thing to do. A man who knew his ingrained attitudes was wrong, but who tried to overcome them!
As your allusion to WW 2, being a European I know that had as much to do with self-preservation as it did moral superiority. But yes, WW 2 was one of the most justifiable wars ever fought. But it would have had a greater moral foundation if it had been pre-emptive. I mean if The European powers had removed Hitler and his henchmen before 1940!
When you bring up soldiers, police and fire-rescue workers, I for one can wholly agree with you on that point. They have my greatest esteem. People, whom at the risk of life and body serve to protect the society wherein they live, can’t be praised high enough

But all of this has nothing to do with the real line of this thread.
I’m at this time part of another forum, where we are discussing this same problem. The consensus there from both right and left wings seem to be that the only hope for any long-term solution is that moderate Muslim must somehow be brought into play. Note the key words – somehow and long-term!
We here in the West are in the position of re-acting to the attacks of Muslim terrorists. We are playing catch-up, a position that does not leave much room for long-term and somehow.
Now that the animals have discovered that we are vulnerable to attacks on our children, they will certainly go for that target again. Further increasing public outcry for hard-line reprisals.
As I said I’m also a realist!

Originally posted by Harald
Did you read the bin Laden letter? As to his aim (cause)? The total elimination of our western democratic way of life and its replacement by an Islamic one. That is his cause and also the cause of the radicals and fundamentalist who follow him, and their numbers are growing daily.

yet he runs free.....:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Locke
I
BTW, the reason Russia didn't let the Chechians have their own country back when the Soviet Union fell is because Chechnia has oil. Until every last drop have been sucked out of Chechnia, Russia will still try to hold on to it. So the way to stop the fighting is to give Chechnia what it wants, independance. But they won't do that until every last drop of oil has been sucked out of there and stamped with mark of the Mother Country.

sounds familiar !

Let me get this straight. You’re counselling appeasement?
Yes. However, not to appease the leaders, but the people. The people would welcome an end to murder. In some places, their land back. Isreal is a completely seperate thing, two highly dangerous terrorist groups going at it in a very small location. I'm sure that if the Isreali government would actually allow a compromise the Palestanians would agree.

At a high price!
10 to 15 million dead due to starvation and liquidations and deportations to the Gulags.
70 years with and dictatorship and all that entailed, like secret police political indoctrinations, no free speech. Neighbour spying on neighbour etc., etc…
A very high price.
You mean the exact same thing that happened when under Tzar rule? However they had to withstand hundreds of years, and with outrageously rich people spitting at them in the streets. At least in the USSR they all died together. Then again "When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not
much happier if it is called `the People's Stick'.". -M. Bakunin

Get real will you!
In no nation on Earth do people have or demand and are given greater freedom then in the USA.
Yes Joe McCarthy and his HUAC was a blemish. But remember he only tried to circumvent the Constitution. Remember also he was brought to grief by the very system you attempt to denigrate with that vile comment
That was a very specific comment, and I worded it exactly how I meant it. We fought against the Russians and their hate of freedom and such, and for a time we created a country that destroyed freedom in an attempt to fight against them. And frankly, we're doing it again. We are destroying our freedoms in return for a false sense of safety. We're becoming what we mean to destroy. And I could have stuck two quotes in there, but I think you can guess at them.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend!
I thought you were a cynic. I consider it, the enemy of my enemy is the backstabber. You may be allies, but not friends. If there is no reason to trust them other than to fight off another enemy, don't trust them. That is an outrageously dangerous thing to do. And we did it.

That is one of the weaknesses of democracies.
They are forced to react instead of acting When they do act like in Iraq, they are also faulted for that. Just as they would have been faulted if they had taken pre-emptive action against Nazi Germany in the 30’s.
If it's pre-emptive, that means there is plenty of time for deplomacy! War is a reactive thing, deplomacy is proactive. You can never justify a pre-emptive war, it's pre-emptive, no reason except for "There, uh, might be a problem later? So, let's obliterate it!" Besides, Iraq really wasn't pre-emptive. Or that's what they told us, we were told there were WMD in there, right then, not plans, but the actual things, we were told he was a direct threat. Those aren't pre-emptive reasons. And with Nazi Germany? That's hindsight, at the time they had no idea. The only ones with the idea were the socialists in Germany, but they were already dead by then.

In the meantime we must live with the Beslan, Madrid, WTC?
No, they can be hunted down. For those are crimes. That's reactive. However, to invade their country, or scrounge the earth for anybody related to them, even if they hadn't done anything yet, that's pre-emptive. To kill their children so they don't have a chance to kill us, that's pre-emptive. That's wrong. In that case deplomacy and education are the answers. Killing them will just incite them more.

Again get real will you!
Do you really think that when Jefferson was penning the Declaration of Independence, the document that laid the foundation of your country, he was planning for 50 states? Quite the opposite, he wanted to keep the country small, it was only in later life when he became a federalist he went in for expansion.
Or that the inhabitants of a small village in Greece, actually planned for the city to grow into Athens?
Or when Romulus killed his brother Remus and founded the city of Rome, he had any idea it would one day be the centre of the greatest Empire the world has ever seen?
Long range planning, No!
Plans can be made, but once they are implemented they tend to take on a life of their own.
When Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independance? No they didn't really expect to win the war just yet, when the Constitution was written up, yes. They had it lined out what new states would do. That was a very long term project.
I was explicit on Athens, the republic lasted for quite some time, it was designed to. But the monarchy they had from small village to then? No. I wasn't specific about Rome though. But from the time they became an Empire to the colapse hundreds of years later, that was long term planning. Even from when the Romans overthrew the Etruscans and instituted a Republic that lasted for Milenia, that was planned. Of course minute details weren't planned, but the way they fought, the way Rome was expanded, that was quite deliberate. Befriending instead of murdering.

Who would?
Except homicidal fundamentalistic terrorists.
Obviously, it seems, you. For you are taking a stand just as radical as them. They want to kill all of us, you want to kill all of them. And as you said, you can't argue with radicals, so everything I say will go in one ear and out the other, eh?

Originally posted by Blibblob

Yes. However, not to appease the leaders, but the people. The people would welcome an end to murder. In some places, their land back.
I still maintain that you can’t make deals with terrorists, that once you bend or otherwise give in that they’ll be back for further concessions.
Case in point, take the recent hostage taking in Iraq of 2 French journalists. The hostage takers at first demanded that the French government repeal a law regarding the wearing of openly religious symbols in public schools, including Muslim girls headscarves. They thought that it would lead to further polarization of Christian and Muslims in France, instead the Muslim community rallied behind the French government, and the girls shed the scarves. So now the hostage takers have upped their demands to include 5 million dollars, plus French government assurances that they’ll stay out of Iraq. France, one of the most vehement opponents of the American involvement in Iraq! So you see appeasement doesn’t always work.
Also how would you appease Saudi, Yemenites, Afgans and all of the other Jihadists; whose demands are not financial or based on claims for land, that we here in the west give up or democratic way of life and follow the Koran. Does your call for appeasement extend to that?
You can never justify a pre-emptive war, it's pre-emptive, no reason except for "There, uh, might be a problem later? So, let's obliterate it!"… And with Nazi Germany? That's hindsight, at the time they had no idea
Again I still maintain that pre-emption can save lives! In the case of WW2 it might have saved millions, at least most of the Jews of Europe might have been saved.
Call it hindsight if you wish but there were voices crying in the wilderness, Winston Churchill among them! But pacifists and appeasers drowned them out, with people like Chamberlain waving the agreement he made with Hr., Hitler and proclaiming Peace in Our Time. 6 Years of war and over 50 million dead proved him and his fellow appeasers wrong.
Republic that lasted for Millennia, that was planned. Of course minute details weren't planned, but the way they fought, the way Rome was expanded, that was quite deliberate. Befriending instead of murdering.
Read your history, the republic lasted less then 500 years before Augustus replaced it with an Empire, where the Senate was a rubber stamp assembly without an power at all.
Another thing, Rome expanded and grew strong by use of force. In the context of the time they were very good at killing, very very good, better then any of their contemporaries. Ask the Gauls, Dacians, Spanish, North Africans, Greeks and all of the other people the befriended and enslaved.
Case in point ask the Carthaginians…oh no you can’t, the Romans befriended them so much that the whole people died of the friendship.
They want to kill all of us, you want to kill all of them.
They want us (Western Democracies) to bow to their demands, and they will continue to kill us until we do.
Do I want killed, animals who go into a school and slaughter more then 500 people more that half of them children?
Do I want killed animals, who hijack airplanes and crash them into buildings killing thousands or plant bombs in crowded subway killing innocent commuters or animals who execute in cold blood 15 poverty stricken Nepalese whose only crime was that they were so desperate for work so they could feed their families that they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Do I want these animals killed?
Dammed right I do! Not only that but I want their leaders dead, and the earth salted over, so that they don’t come again.
Do I want them all (Islamic Radical Fundamentalists) dead?
I must answer no. No I don’t, but the killing will go on until they stop sending their deluded followers out to commit atrocities. Until some form of moderation gains the upper hand in their society. Moderation both among their leaders as well as among the rank and file.

Originally posted by Harald
[
Do I want these animals killed?
Dammed right I do! Not only that but I want their leaders dead, and the earth salted over, so that they don’t come again.
Do I want them all (Islamic Radical Fundamentalists) dead?
I must answer no. No I don’t, but the killing will go on until they stop sending their deluded followers out to commit atrocities. Until some form of moderation gains the upper hand in their society. Moderation both among their leaders as well as among the rank and file. [/COLOR]

First : don't call them "animals". Whatever they do, whatever they deserve, they are human beings, not animals.

Second :
"Until some form of moderation gains the upper hand in their society. Moderation both among their leaders as well as among the rank and file. "
How do you expect a certain form of moderation to gain the upper hand in their society as long as these society are crippled by violence ? Look at palestine. Look at Chechnya. Do you really expect people to dress in pink and say : "OK, let's be peaceniks" when their houses are being blown off and their kids raped ?
Once again I am not supporting terrorists. But as long as injustice and atrocities are perpetuated, I can't see how we can avoid people turning to terrorism and fundamentalism.

I just wanted to point out something. When you refer to the terrorists as "islamic fundamentalists" or "islamic terrorists" (like on the title of this thread) I don't think there is a relation between these two things.
For example, the fact that the Chechen terrorists are muslims has no relation. They don't kill because of the Quran says (it doesn't talk about killing anyone, by the way). They have other reasons, with which you may agree or disagree.
Just wanted to say that, because I start to feel that the world has something against Islam and I don't see why. I have muslim friends and they are absolutely normal like you and me.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
They don't kill because of the Quran says (it doesn't talk about killing anyone, by the way
...So, you should not take friends from their ranks unless they immigrate in the way of Allah; and if they do not, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and do not take them as protectors or helpers (friends)." That's from Surah 4: 88,89 in the Quran
Read the book my friend. If yu did you would find many equally direct encouragements to kill the unbelievers and infidels.
Remember a devout Fundamentlistic must follow implictly the the word not the interpetation of the Quran.

That is taken out of context.

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, “…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (Al-An`am: 151) and Allah says in the Qur’an, “Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)” (Al-Isra’: 33). According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah: 32)

However, your question is valid, then how come the Qur’an says, “kill them wherever you find them…” as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah: 191 and Surah An-Nisa’: 89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:

“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.” (Al-Baqarah: 190-194)


Taken from:
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=51761

Your'r perfecly right G-E-G.
TheQur'an is filled with such inconsistincies, which is why it's such a dangerous book.
As the Fundamentalistisc terrorist who read only what they want to read, use it as an excuse to commit the most terrible crimes immaginable. Thus justifying themselves by pointing to their Holiest of the Holiest, and thereby thing themselves absolved, as they are carring out the will of Allah The Benign and Munificent.
A problem to say the least!

Harald, it's the same with the Bible then. Everything in this world can be dangerous, even a piece of glass.

I still maintain that you can’t make deals with terrorists, that once you bend or otherwise give in that they’ll be back for further concessions.
There are people in Palestine who are not terrorists. There are people in Chechnya who are not terrorists. People in all of these places of high terrorism. They are not all terrorists. I said "not to appease the leaders, but the people".

Again I still maintain that pre-emption can save lives! In the case of WW2 it might have saved millions, at least most of the Jews of Europe might have been saved.
What pre-emptive? Nobody knew until the war started. Then they ignored it. As for his imperialism. They had just finished a damn war. They did not have the resources, nor the support of the people to start yet another war in two decades time. Not to mention Hitler was taking land that supported him. Old German lands, there was no bloodshed, they were merely anexed. Hindsight is 20/20. We've learned, hopefully. AND, we've also hopefully learned that violence will only cause violence a few decades later. Which we've seen from the Cold War examples I gave.

Read your history, the republic lasted less then 500 years before Augustus replaced it with an Empire, where the Senate was a rubber stamp assembly without an power at all.
Yeah, I had dates messed up. That I apologise for. But, the Republic was planned, lasted for half a century and in quarrel over Ceasar, an empire was put in place which lasted for another half a century.

Another thing, Rome expanded and grew strong by use of force. In the context of the time they were very good at killing, very very good, better then any of their contemporaries. Ask the Gauls, Dacians, Spanish, North Africans, Greeks and all of the other people the befriended and enslaved.
Yes yes, the first attack was of very short and quick bloodshed. After that the soldiers had no use and were used to build roads, aqueducts, buildings, et cetera. The lands remained under Roman rule due to the way they governed. They kept their governers, most of the time. Everything stayed the same except for better infrastructure, water, education. The only changes were chosen by the people there. It was a very benevolent rule. There were very few civilian uprisings, if there were it was local, only real uprisings were of the gladiators. The people were not treated with extreme force, there was no need.

They want us (Western Democracies) to bow to their demands, and they will continue to kill us until we do.
The leaders, yes. The people, no. People want peace, they always do. Nobody wants war, except for a select few. But people can be deluded into fighting for religious, patriotic "reasons".
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief


TheQur'an is filled with such inconsistincies, which is why it's such a dangerous book.
Bah, it has just as many inconsistancies as any religious text. And those are no where near as bad as most. Frankly because in context, it's not that bad. Did you read all of it? It said to not fight unless attacked, and if they stop, so do you. Yeah, that can be twisted, as all religions can, for all they are are interpretations. But some will catch it for as it is.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
Harald, it's the same with the Bible then. Everything in this world can be dangerous, even a piece of glass.
G.EG. Yes, and even a piece of paper can be considered a dangerous weapon.
It’s not just some catchy cliché when someone says that:
the pen is mightier then the sword. .
So many people have been killed by what was written on a piece of paper that it must surely rank as one of the leading causes of non-natural causes of death in the world.
That is what the current War on Terror is basically about.
Many of the rank and file members of the various Jihadist groups around the world, whether they be Chechens, Iraqi, Saudi, Indonesians or Brits etc., etc., may or may not have quite legitimate grievances or agendas, but the common denominator, the thing that ties them all together is their belief of what is written in their Holiest of Holiest, the Qua’ran!
It does not matter that they are being used or rather misused by a cadre of secular and non-secular power-hungry leaders. It does not even matter that the majority of Muslims around the world adhere to the peaceful teachings of their faith. What does matter is that these Jihadists’s are the ones that have declared war on all who do not share their faith.
That they will continue to commit atrocities like Beslan , Madrid, Bali and WTC, until they are stopped. And reining them in and stopping them will require the active participation of moderate elements in the Muslim community.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Bah, it has just as many inconsistancies as any religious text. And those are no where near as bad as most. Frankly because in context, it's not that bad. Did you read all of it? It said to not fight unless attacked, and if they stop, so do you. Yeah, that can be twisted, as all religions can, for all they are are interpretations. But some will catch it for as it is.
...So, you should not take friends from their ranks unless they immigrate in the way of Allah; and if they do not, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and do not take them as protectors or helpers (friends)." That's from Surah 4: 88,89 in the Quran
This is but one Surah there are others as vehement and direct, and then see G.E.G.’s answer above for three others that are at odds with this one.
My point is that the fanatics who are committing the atrocities today can point to this and say that they are acting after the will of their God. Therefore an inconsistent and dangerous book
There are people in Palestine who are not terrorists. There are people in Chechnya who are not terrorists. See my answer to G.E.G,
Yes yes, the first attack was of very short and quick bloodshed. After that the soldiers had no use and were used to build roads, aqueducts, buildings, et cetera. The lands remained under Roman rule due to the way they governed. They kept their governers, most of the time. Everything stayed the same except for better infrastructure, water, education. The only changes were chosen by the people there. It was a very benevolent rule. There were very few civilian uprisings, if there were it was local, only real uprisings were of the gladiators. The people were not treated with extreme force, there was no need.
You seem to have an inordinate affection for the Roman Empire. In the context of the times, which was the Dark Ages, they were very good at what they did which was: Conquer and Rule.
Very good!
As for benign, oh please!
Tell that to Boadicia in Britain who when foully mistreated by a Roman governor lead a rebellion that cost the lives of a hundred thousand Britons and the enslavement of many more.
Or the Jewish insurrection in Judea/Israel that cost close to a million lives, the enslavement of hundreds of thousands, and for the remainder, the Diaspora; the expulsion from their native land and generations of exile.
These are just two examples of the treatment meted out by your benign Romans. Try reading Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and other similar works, and you’ll find out that while advanced and enlightened, the Romans used their provinces as a source of slaves and taxes.

Harald as I said before, there is a reason behind all those terrorist attacks you mentioned. The Quran was written many centuries ago, and these terrorist attacks are something quite new.
Some people prefer to believe that they attack because they're crazy and that's all. There's more behind that, though. And I repeat just in case someone misunderstands me, I am not justifying the death of innocents in these attacks.

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl

Some people prefer to believe that they attack because they're crazy and that's all. There's more behind that, though.
I know that the reasons are multilayered. But right now it doesn't realy matter. because the Jihardists extremists have an agenda, to which they are willing to us any means to acheive. Forcing the victims of those attacks to react in ways that at times are equally destructive.
The only answer lies in the Muslim moderates helping rein in the lunatic fringe, and to do that they (the moderates) must be given some form of concession that will not have the apperance of appeasing the lunatic fringe.
I for one can't see how that might be done.
A Catch 22 conundrum!

Originally posted by Green_Eyed_Girl
Harald as I said before, there is a reason behind all those terrorist attacks you mentioned. The Quran was written many centuries ago, and these terrorist attacks are something quite new.
Some people prefer to believe that they attack because they're crazy and that's all. There's more behind that, though. And I repeat just in case someone misunderstands me, I am not justifying the death of innocents in these attacks. g.e.g you are absolutely right. its like, when i was young, my father moved us to an all white neighborhood. when we got there, everyone had their opinions, just like we do as people. but there was a guy, 19 years of age, and everytime my brother , 13 years of age, would deliver the paper, (he was the paper boy), that guy would torment my brother. spit on him, slam the door in his face and call him all of the choice names. in the winter time, the guy would get on his snowmobile and play chicken with my brother, throughout his whole paper route.....everyday. my brother went to the guys parents and tried to tell them what this guy was doing. the parents would always reply " oh, my son wouldnt do that !"...this went on for at least a year. well, one day, my 13 year old brother, (who was now 14, and the guy was 20), went to collect paper money. the guy opened the door, and spit on my brother. my brother had enough, picked up a brick, and gave that guy a new orafice on his head. the mother runs out and screams " oh yyou little animal, look what you did to my son, how dare you " get off of my property, and cancel my paper !"....who was wrong ? people who are pushed to the edge, can only retaliate the way they think is effective, especially when no one wanted to hear the initial cry, but when ever they do, they are the animal, not the one that started it...although, i do not condone violence from anyone, i also dont condone violence against anyone. thats the point we must get to. if the neighbor five houses down from me, does something to me, i dont start with the guy next door and work my way down, i get the guy that did it !