Will the French government choke here?

Now what? (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/08/30/france.hostages.villepin/index.html)

They were saying on NPR today that whereas the country was pretty well split on the headscarf issue, this thing is bringing people together behind the idea of banning headscarves. There were also a lot of people expressing dismay, along the lines of "hey, I thought we were pals!"

Hard to understand how these kidnappers don't see what these tactics are doing to their cause.

The govt won't withdraw the law. In fact I think it is not even possible, given the constitution.
This is a rather strange event - I can't rememvber any other hostage being bargained against a law in a foreign country.

Anyway, the terrorists have managed to gather against them a lot of muslim people :

"The Union of French Islamic Organisations, which had previously urged schoolgirls to flout the ban, said it was vital to avoid exacerbating hostility towards France's 5 million strong Muslim population.

"This episode must not lead to a further radicalisation of the situation in France," Fouad Alaoui, the group's secretary general, said.

Arab leaders stressed that the kidnapping was damaging "the image of Arabs in the west". Yasser Arafat, who was due to make a radio appeal on the journalists' behalf last night, called for the "immediate release" of the men, saying France was a friend of the Palestinian cause.
(...)

Iraqi Sunni and Shia groups hostile to the US-led presence in their country also called for the hostages' release yesterday, stressing that journalists should not be treated as combatants
"

I have no way of knowing who is holding these hostages. I assume it is terrorists.

But, for a moment, lets look at the situation with a different point of view. If I wanted to make an impression upon France and the world that the terrorists could not be trusted no matter what you conform to. I would hold French citizens and claim to be a terrorist cell, barter their lives, then either release them or kill them depending upon the point I wished to make.

I am not saying I believe this example but you can see how easy it is to control the political emotions of a lot of people. We have seen some rough covert actions in the past. Could this be another?

Hardly. To set up such a credible hoax in Iraq would not be so easy. Plus, who needs to "make the world believe that terrorists cannot be trusted ?"

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Hard to understand how these kidnappers don't see what these tactics are doing to their cause.

I wonder if they just kidnap white guys and them make up a reason later, once they figure out where they're from. "You're from Switzerland? Um, we demand that your government provide free folding knives to Islamic freedom fighters everywhere!"

Sounds about right, Lionel.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I wonder if they just kidnap white guys and them make up a reason later, once they figure out where they're from. "You're from Switzerland? Um, we demand that your government provide free folding knives to Islamic freedom fighters everywhere!" You mean radical Muslims may be commiting racial HATE crimes? God forbid!!

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I wonder if they just kidnap white guys and them make up a reason later, once they figure out where they're from. "You're from Switzerland? Um, we demand that your government provide free folding knives to Islamic freedom fighters everywhere!"

You're probably right. But I guess Switzerland could provide a lot of bank service to the terrorist rather than folding knives…

A couple observations here:

first, the muslims are in the proccess of taking over europe as we speak. not with force, but with population and intimidation, both physical and political. the europeans are losing their continent to the muslims, who are mainly arab and north african. in 50 years there will be more arabs and north africans in europe then europeans, which is sad, as the tolerant, advanced civilzation will be replaced by something more along the lines of morrocco or Iran. Our own western culture will be to blame for this, specifically liberal ideals like abortion and the idea women should first succeed professionally and compete with men instead of raising families first. THese lead to a massive drop in the birth rate for white europeans. islam has the opposite of these values, and will take europe over in 50 years. The europeans, being firmly liberla in ideology, cant see their own end on the horizon for fear of offending who it is that will be their ultimate demise. I think france is doing the right thing, and doing something that HAS to be done to try and stem, at least a little, this tide of islam that threatens to tear down westrn civilization in europe. If france crumbles on this, it will be the end of europe for sure.

another observation is that the ban was more then just muslim head scarves, it was also jewish skull caps and christian ornamentation as well, yet who is the only one out there taking hostages and threatening to cut their heads off if they dont get their way? you got it, the muslims, the religion of peace :rolleyes:

just my 2 cents

Originally posted by Travh20
A couple observations here:

The europeans are losing their continent to the muslims, who are mainly arab and north african. in 50 years there will be more arabs and north africans in europe then europeans


The birth rate of second generation immigrants is exactly the same than the birth rate from people from french origin.
Get your information on immigration in Europe elsewhere than from the Front National (fascist party) propaganda.
Foreign immigration is an asset for France, not a threat, exactly in the same way it has been in the USA for decades.

Originally posted by astrapol2

Foreign immigration is an asset for France, not a threat, exactly in the same way it has been in the USA for decades.

I rest my case. complete refusal to even consider that immigration is anything but the greatest thing ever for a country. throw the facts out the window, what really matters is everyone feel good.

OK, Travh; just give us a few facts to support your point of view if you really want to debate this.

Originally posted by Travh20
throw the facts out the window, what really matters is everyone feel good.

I agree with Astropol Trav, you provided no "facts" to throw out the window, only your opinion, which is a tad xenophobic to say the least, blatantly racist at worst.

Just out of curiosity do you think white Europeans are 'better" than Muslim Arabs and North Africans?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Just out of curiosity do you think white Europeans are 'better" than Muslim Arabs and North Africans? "Better" at what?

Is xenophobia always a bad thing?

I think I know what trav is trying to say.
Years ago a guy from India called Mahareeshe something was in Antelope, Oregon. He had a commune up there. A Baptist church in Antelope had millions of dollars assets and land. This Mahareeshe guy signed up enough of his supporters as voting members. They voted out everyone and put Mahareeshe in charge and he took all the assets of the Church. Some of the older members might remember this takeover. The guy had a Rolls for everyday of the week. Finally was deported for IRS violations.
This is a factual, simplified, example of how you can be taken over by planned invasion.
At first the Baptist in Antelope were glad to get the new members. That is until they were kicked out and sold out.

I guess the next example would be the American Indian that at first welcomed the new immigrants into North America. We know the rest of that story.

May I remind you what Travh wrote ?

Originally posted by Travh20
The europeans are losing their continent to the muslims, who are mainly arab and north african. in 50 years there will be more arabs and north africans in europe then europeans, which is sad, as the tolerant, advanced civilzation will be replaced by something more along the lines of morrocco or Iran.

Well I'm sorry but this is absolutely paranoid xenophobic bullshit. There is absolutely nothing to support such an assertion.
And to read about tolerant civilization in this post seems quite ironical.

Originally posted by ES347fan
Is xenophobia always a bad thing?

I hope this is really only a question, and not a way of stating your point of view, since I have a much better opinion of you than this !

Of course it is always a bad thing.

Crticizing a country for its actions, its regime or even some aspects of its lifestyle is sometimes OK, but I don't see anything positive in being xenophobic - labelling people because of their nationality.

OK, forget the labels. Country A is not producing enough people to replace its own population. Country B is, and country B is imigrating into country A at a steady rate, and will soon be the majority in country A. Country B is of religion Z and country A is of little or no religion. Country B's religion is known to be highly intolerant of the lifestyle of country A, and once country B is the majority expect great changes in country A.

Frances Wake-up Call....

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/printable.asp?ID=11445

Dan, you prove my point by quoting an article from a far right and anti-muslim site. Find an article from a refular media if you want to be convincing.

Tavh : I don't know which are tese country A and B you refer to but they sure are not France and north Africa.

"Country A is not producing enough people to replace its own population. "
France is.

"country B is imigrating into country A at a steady rate"
No muslim country is; Immigration in France is very restricted.

"And will soon be the majority in country A."
no way.

"Once country B is the majority expect great changes in country A."
Maybe except that
1- this is not going to happen.
2- second genartion immigrants from muslim country usually tend to adopt western lifestyle, and 3rd generation are not different from other frnech citizen.

Originally posted by es347fan
Is xenophobia always a bad thing?

I think so. A "phobia" is usually defined as an "unreasonable" fear of something.

xen·o·phobe n.

A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

I think the salient words in the preceding definition are "unduly" and "contemptuous".

Originally posted by Travh20
OK, forget the labels. Country A is not producing enough people to replace its own population. Country B is, and country B is imigrating into country A at a steady rate, and will soon be the majority in country A. Country B is of religion Z and country A is of little or no religion. Country B's religion is known to be highly intolerant of the lifestyle of country A, and once country B is the majority expect great changes in country A.

Too add to Astrapol's points. If, as you contend, the Muslim's are intolerant of France's lifestyle, why are they emigrating there in large numbers? Could it be that they wish to participate in the lifestlye more than they wish to change it?

When the members of any society emigrate to another society, they usually are assimilated into the culture of their new home rather than change their new home to accomodate their old lifestyle. Their are historical examples where the reverse was true, but this only happens when the immigrants come as conquerors and not as peaceful immigrants.

I think there is an unfortunate tendency to think of all Muslims as fundamentalists, when this is not true, and in any case it is not the fundamentalists that are emigrating to places like France.

Ummm... this news have me thinking. I have my doubts about the kidnappers. In the first place, what they are doing is completely illogical and all muslims are against it. In the second place, all it can bring is hate. I have no proofs to say this, but, personally, I doubt very much about the real identity of the kidnappers.

Originally posted by HaVoK
"Better" at what?

Not better at something, just "better" as in, superior, or preferable in some way.

Trav had made this statement:

The europeans are losing their continent to the muslims, who are mainly arab and north african. in 50 years there will be more arabs and north africans in europe then europeans, which is sad, as the tolerant, advanced civilzation will be replaced by something more along the lines of morrocco or Iran.

This statement implies that the civilization in France 50 years from now will be "worse" than the one they have now.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Too add to Astrapol's points. If, as you contend, the Muslim's are intolerant of France's lifestyle, why are they emigrating there in large numbers? Could it be that they wish to participate in the lifestlye more than they wish to change it?

When the members of any society emigrate to another society, they usually are assimilated into the culture of their new home rather than change their new home to accomodate their old lifestyle. Their are historical examples where the reverse was true, but this only happens when the immigrants come as conquerors and not as peaceful immigrants.

I think there is an unfortunate tendency to think of all Muslims as fundamentalists, when this is not true, and in any case it is not the fundamentalists that are emigrating to places like France.

you cant be serious pagan. how much assimilation do you see in this country from the immigrants? all I see is volluntary segragation. I gues the word diversity slipped your mind. how can you have diversity and assimilation at the same time. it cant happen. you can try to say it can, but in reality diversity is lack of assimilation.

Originally posted by Travh20
you cant be serious pagan. how much assimilation do you see in this country from the immigrants?

Plenty. The vast majority of immigrants learn our language. They send their children to our schools and vote in our elections. They participate in all levels of our economy, and engage in typical "American" behaviors. In short, most immigrants are just as "American" as you or I, except they speak more languages.

all I see is volluntary segragation.

Then you are seeing only what you want to see.

I gues the word diversity slipped your mind. how can you have diversity and assimilation at the same time. it cant happen. you can try to say it can, but in reality diversity is lack of assimilation.

Assimilation doesn't have to be total or complete Trav. I don't expect immigrants from other countries to forget their native languages or never eat ethnic foods from their native lands. It's only natural for people to be more comfortable with people that are like themselves.

Let me ask you...for all the immigration to this country, what laws have we passed that fundamentally have changed this country due to immigration from another country? How has life in the U.S. been made worse for you by immigration?