This is proof that the old saying "Fate is a patient mistress but she forgets no one" is very very true

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/082804_ap_ns_nazi.html

"the Nazi Waffen SS was a movement hostile to the United States"

LOL, You think?

Hotsie, totsie another Nazi. Toss 'em in the gator pit.

maybe we could pit these nazis against the al qeada at GITMO in a sort of terrorist deathmatch

It's a shame they're indicting this man now. He's an 84 year-old senior citizen, who's abided by our laws since 1950. Most of those who served in the Germany military didn't really have a choice in the matter. Given the circumstances, can you blame him if he served in the SS given the inevitable alternative of being put to death if he didn't? Besides, if we can't prove that he actually killed another person, then we have no right bothering him with hearsay. It's 2004 for Christ’s sake! I don't need tax dollars wasted to pay for this kind of shit...nobody does. The kicker is, it’s in Chicago. I heard the story aired on channel 7 when it hit the news yesterday. I, truthfully, feel badly for him.

this guy isnt john kerry, he doesnt get a pass on old war crimes. Seriously though, you didnt just get assigned to the deaths head SS units, you ahd to try out for them and pass all kinds of tests. I could see feeling sorry for the guy if he was just some poor Landser kicked out of the country for fighting agaisnt us a German, but this dude was a guard at a death camp, he knew what was going on there and made no attempt to stop it. he may not have dropped the Zyklon-B in the tank, but he may as well have

Trav, I understand, but seriously, given the fact that if he were to protest in even the slightest manner, they'd have killed him faster than you could say SS. There was no room for compassion of dissention when you were a Nazi. He was essentially a prisoner as well, however his imprisonment was of a distinctly different fate. If you were stuck in a room by a sadist who had a thousand soldiers backing him, and he placed a gun in your hand and said to kill the man standing right in front of you, you'd most likely do it. Given the possibility of your own death, most wouldn't hesitate doing whatever it takes to survive. This man was no exception, and his past is something we shouldn't be spending the public’s money on when, at 84, he's no longer a threat to anybody.

I wholeheartedly agree with praetorian on this one...

Originally posted by DarkFantasy96
I wholeheartedly agree with praetorian on this one...
Oddly enough, so do I...

Well this guy was supposed to be a really terrible guard. Although he probably deserves to have his citizenship revoked, he's really really old. Who does it hurt to let him die in peace, he can't hurt anybody now.

I wholeheartedly agree with praetorian on this one...

Why thank you, sweetie!

Oddly enough, so do I...

ODDLY ENOUGH, Borg???

Am I that hard to agree with!?!

Originally posted by The Praetorian
ODDLY ENOUGH, Borg???

Am I that hard to agree with!?!
Yes. ;)

Sweetie? ::blush:: ;)

Praetorian, I dont hink you understand. No one was forced into a Nazi SS Deaths Head unit. you had to WANT to be there, you had to ask for it, and go through all sorts of crap to actually be accepted. They were the cream of the crop of the nazi party. He could have gone to a regular Army unit, or even a regular Waffen SS military unit, but he chose deaths head. I am not sure about how he got assigned to a camp, that may no thave been his choice, but he had to know it was an option. I dont think any known Nazi should be given a pass. As much pain and suffering as the world went through becasue of those bastards we should not be leiniant even now. he is lucky he is only getting deported, although as soon as he leaves the US the Israelis will snag him and hang his ass next weekend.

I agree with trav on this one. I highly doubt he felt sorry for the people in the camp he was guarding. Yeah, he's 84 years old. He wasn't living here for 50 years, he was hiding. Keeping down his past, I'm not sure if he murdered anybody himself, but he sure as hell was an accomplice. He enable them to do their jobs, to enslave and torture completely innocent people. He does not deserve an out just because he was successfully able to hide from us.

Ok...

Admittedly, I don't know how exactly the varying levels of the Nazi militia was structured, but I was always told that they had little choice in what they did. You could totally be right, and in recognition of that fact, I want to let you know that I don't have enough factually based info to pose an accurate argument either way.

At least you admit when you could be wrong... unlike SOME people... not gonna name any names. :rolleyes:

stop with the overdose bashing already!

I wasn't talking about him.... or not him specifically anyways... trav... How do you know I wasn't talking about YOU, eh? ;)

becasue you never named names

Well you don't know either way then, do you?

I was pretty sure you were referencing OD as well... ;)

Yep I was, and trav, but those are only the most prevalent members of the "I'm Always Right" group.

I am not always right, more often then not, but not always

Oh and just so everyone knows, I'm not excluding my bitchy, hypocritical self from that group. :D

I agree with travh. The guy was responsible for his acts. In fact, soldiers assigned to death camps were not the elite, rather the guys not good enough to fight. But they could perfectly refuse the assignment and were absolutely not threaten to do their job.

There are several stories about german people resisting inhuman orders during WWII. Sometimes it is possible to say "no" and it works - something we should all remember in situations when it seems we have no choice.

Originally posted by Travh20
Praetorian, I dont hink you understand. No one was forced into a Nazi SS Deaths Head unit. you had to WANT to be there, you had to ask for it, and go through all sorts of crap to actually be accepted. They were the cream of the crop of the nazi party. He could have gone to a regular Army unit, or even a regular Waffen SS military unit, but he chose deaths head. I am not sure about how he got assigned to a camp, that may no thave been his choice, but he had to know it was an option. I dont think any known Nazi should be given a pass. As much pain and suffering as the world went through becasue of those bastards we should not be leiniant even now. he is lucky he is only getting deported, although as soon as he leaves the US the Israelis will snag him and hang his ass next weekend.

That my friend is the truth if I've ever heard it :woohoo:

I find it fairly ironic that Trav, brings me up in numerous threads…even though I’ve never posted in them.

Oh, and I’m always right. It’s the way we liberals think (sarcasm intended)…

Originally posted by Overdose
I find it fairly ironic that Trav, brings me up in numerous threads…even though I’ve never posted in them.


He's obsessed with you. Did he ever mention his "secret cupboard" crammed with pictures and documents about you ?
Spooky, no ?



http://www.mikhalenko.ru/photos/Crimea-2002/vano-reporter.jpg

Originally posted by astrapol2
There are several stories about german people resisting inhuman orders during WWII. Sometimes it is possible to say "no" and it works - something we should all remember in situations when it seems we have no choice.

DOnt tell that to John Kerry or Overdose, according to them the government made them commit war crimes and they had no say in it whatsoever

As odd as it may seem I agree with Trav, and Blib, and Astrapol here.

The Waffen-SS was an elite military organization that was originally created to overthrow the SA and bring Hitler to power in the Nazi party. They went from a 200 man organization in the 1920's, that acted as Hitler's personal guard, to a military organization comprised of 38 divisions by the end of the war. SS troops were considered elite fanatical troops who swore the following oath to Adolf Hitler:

"We swear to you, Adolf Hitler, loyalty and bravery as leader and chancellor of the German Reich. We vow to you and to the principles laid down by you obedience to the point of death. So help us God!"

The leader of the SS was Heinrich Himmler, who was also the person who ran the Gestapo, and oversaw the concentration camps and the extermination program. Guards at concentration camps were SS men, and were used to intimidate the non-SS workers at these camps, as well as the prisoners. The non-SS workers at these camps were not told before their arrival at the camps what was going on there, but after their arrival were given an oath to take themselves.

Operation Reinhard German camp workers were not told of the program
goals and their precise duties until they reached the centers. Upon
their arrival the SS officers oriented them by comparing center goals
with the euthanasia program, which was very familiar to the workers.
Then the SS swore them to absolute secrecy. Each worker signed a pledge
that contained the following commitments:

1. I have been instructed that under no circumstances will I
discuss with anyone outside of OR co-workers anything dealing
with the operation.
2. I understand the top secrecy of "any of the occurences of
the so-called Jewish Relocation"
3. I may not take any pictures.
4. "I promise to keep my word to the best of my ability."
5. I understand that after completion of my service, this oath
of secrecy will still apply.

During the Battle of the Bulge, some fifty American prisoners were machine-gunned by SS soldiers, and it is said that after that became known to the American troops, very few SS soldiers were taken prisoner.

One way to sum up the SS would be this quote:

Their importance in the history of World War Two can not be overlooked and their effectiveness as fighting units coupled with the atrocities that were committed by some of its members make the Waffen SS one of the most infamous military organizations in history.

In short, this guy was not just a German soldier, any more than a member of the Gestapo was just a policeman.

Background of the SS

http://www.dasreich.ca/background.html

A short but interesting statement about the SS by Heinrich Himmler:

http://www.historyguide.org/europe/himmler.html

Oath of non-SS workers at the camps:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp.py?camps/aktion.reinhard/reinhard-ss-oath

actually I dont think the Deaths heads SS units were Waffen SS. they were more regualr SS. the waffen SS was the straight military branch of the SS that fought conventional war alonside the regular german army. as the war drug on the strict criteria to enter the waffen SS got les and les strict, but the regular SS and the Deaths Head units stayed the same to the end.

Originally posted by Travh20
actually I dont think the Deaths heads SS units were Waffen SS. they were more regualr SS. the waffen SS was the straight military branch of the SS that fought conventional war alonside the regular german army. as the war drug on the strict criteria to enter the waffen SS got les and les strict, but the regular SS and the Deaths Head units stayed the same to the end.

Yes Trav, there was a big difference between the SS and the Waffen-SS, but I didn't want to get into that, since not everyone is as interested in military history as you and I. Strictly speaking, the "Totenkopf" (Deathshead) Division was just one SS division and there were several others that were were SS divisions.

Originally the SS was designed as Hitler's personal guard, but in 1935 Hitler ordered them formed into regular military units.

from one of the pages I linked to:

In addition to contolling the German police force, the SS comprised a group of armed men that were used for security and ceremonial puroposes. This organization was called the SS Verfügungstruppe. Included in this group was Hitler's protection squad, known as the Stabwache. This protection squad had been created in March 1933 and would be the foundation for the 1st SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler". Leibstandarte was different from other SS formations in that they had sworn an oath directly to Hitler and thus effectively removed them from control of Himmler.

When Hitler reintroduced conscription in 1935, he also mandated that the SS Verfügungstruppen would be fully formed as a military unit. SS Verfügungstruppen would be the cornerstone of future Waffen SS divisions. Special schools at Bad Tölz and Braunschweig were created to train future SS men. Himmler selected former Lieut. General Paul Hausser to oversee the training and schooling of the SS. Hausser also created two new SS regiments. "Deutschland" and "Germania" were formed from various battalions of the Verfügungstruppe and would be the foundation for 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" and 5th SS Panzer Division "Wiking". After the annexation of Austria another regiment composed of Austrian Nazis named "Der Führer" was created. Thus at the outbreak of hostilities there were four SS armed regiments (although "Der Führer" was not ready for combat).

After the conclusion of the campaign against Poland, the three regiments of the Verfügungstruppe were joined to form the Verfügungsdivision and Leibstandarte was transformed into a motorized regiment. Also two other divisions were created, the SS Totenkopfdivision and Polizeidivision. In March 1940, after an agreement between the Army and the SS, the title of Waffen SS was officially given. The Waffen SS took part in almost every major battle and were shifted from front to front, depending on the severity of the situation. In the end the Waffen SS would total 38 divisions (although some of these formations were divisions in name only).

Any time you'd like to discuss WWII history Trav, I'd enjoy that very much. :)

Originally posted by Vilepagan

Any time you'd like to discuss WWII history Trav, I'd enjoy that very much. :)

Me too!

Add me to that list.

lets do it, bring up a topic here or in the history section, I am game

I checked yesterday in a very good book, "People in Auschwitz" by H. Langbein, a survivor from the death camp. He confirms that no guard was forced to commit murder againts his will and that those who wanted another assignment could get it easily.

exactly, thanks astropol