Note: This is not a thread to debate on the existence of heaven, so don't start. :rolleyes:

In another thread JJbinks mentioned that, according to the Christianity that he knows, we lose all our earthly memory upon entering heaven. This IMO is almost a reincarnation process into heaven. I discussed memory and incentive a while ago concerning reincarnation, and the issue here is essentially the same:

It is as though you are not actually going to heaven. As though upon entrance you cease to exist while another being begins to exist. Without memory continuation, there is no real sense of continuity. It will be difficult to find motivation to alter one's life style (if entrance to heaven requires less comfortable life style for someone) when in essence they will be doing this for someone else who will have no idea about it. How would one be motivated, in this case?

A concurrent example in reincarnation would be like this: Assume reincarnation happens. We are currently humans, but we do not remember our past incarnations. We might have been a greater being who has sinned, or a lesser being who has done good. Therefore we do not know whether to be happy, angry, regretful, or sad...and at the same time our previous incarnation does not exist anymore, so it (which has now become a human) will not feel the pain of its sinning or the pleasure of its reward for good deeds.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
Note: This is not a thread to debate on the existence of heaven, so don't start. :rolleyes:

In another thread JJbinks mentioned that, according to the Christianity that he knows, we lose all our earthly memory upon entering heaven. This IMO is almost a reincarnation process into heaven. I discussed memory and incentive a while ago concerning reincarnation, and the issue here is essentially the same:

It is as though you are not actually going to heaven. As though upon entrance you cease to exist while another being begins to exist. Without memory continuation, there is no real sense of continuity. It will be difficult to find motivation to alter one's life style (if entrance to heaven requires less comfortable life style for someone) when in essence they will be doing this for someone else who will have no idea about it. How would one be motivated, in this case?

A concurrent example in reincarnation would be like this: Assume reincarnation happens. We are currently humans, but we do not remember our past incarnations. We might have been a greater being who has sinned, or a lesser being who has done good. Therefore we do not know whether to be happy, angry, regretful, or sad...and at the same time our previous incarnation does not exist anymore, so it (which has now become a human) will not feel the pain of its sinning or the pleasure of its reward for good deeds.

When I said this, I didn't mean that it was a belief or doctrine of any church, it was just something I personally believe.

Now in saying that, let me explain why I believe it. Ok, there is no sadness, no pain, no grief, etc etc in Heaven, so any memory of these things from Earth would be a flaw, which also is something we will lack in Heaven.

This is not to say I hope it is this way....I want to remember the fun I had here. The people I met, the girl I loved, the family that was my own. I want to hold onto those memories...however.....if you are in the eternal paradise thinking about your best friend of childhood who went to Hell, you would be sad and grief stricken...and in Heaven of course their are none of the two.

All this leads me to believe one of two things.

1. We have no memories of our life on Earth...

or:

2. We have our memories, but we can feel no sadness or grief.

Although, It seems I would chose the 2nd choice....it would almost seem unrealistic because we will have total outerly love for everything in Heaven and to know someone you love is burning in Hell would be a source of sadness.

I see. So this is something nobody knows for sure then. Is it okay then for everyone to have their version and vision of what heaven is like or should function, as long as through some interpretation of the bible they are able to explain how they got their picture of heaven even if all these versions differ greatly? Wouldn't it be confusing?

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
I see. So this is something nobody knows for sure then. Is it okay then for everyone to have their version and vision of what heaven is like or should function, as long as through some interpretation of the bible they are able to explain how they got their picture of heaven even if all these versions differ greatly? Wouldn't it be confusing?


It doesnt matter what we think, what we hope, what we wish, etc etc, that Heaven will be like.....what we know is that it will be eternal paradise and we will be there with God and Jesus, and our loved ones, and thats all we will ever need.

It doesnt matter......

But to a free thinker it does. To a free thinker it's most important to be pondering such questions instead of accepting unconditionally something given to them or claimed to be such and such by someone, as you phrased it: ...what we know is...and that's all we will ever need. :rolleyes: It strikes me as lazy or narrow-minded, which is fine if you like it. But I am not like that.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
It doesnt matter......

But to a free thinker it does. To a free thinker it's most important to be pondering such questions instead of accepting unconditionally something given to them or claimed to be such and such by someone, as you phrased it: ...what we know is...and that's all we will ever need. :rolleyes: It strikes me as lazy or narrow-minded, which is fine if you like it. But I am not like that.

I'm with you there Dio. It would be nice to believe the story about heaven and eternal paradise, but there's no reason to expect that there's any truth to it whatever. If there is an afterlife, it remains unknown to the living, and I rather hope that it's a good long while before I discover the truth of the matter. :D

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
It doesnt matter......

But to a free thinker it does. To a free thinker it's most important to be pondering such questions instead of accepting unconditionally something given to them or claimed to be such and such by someone, as you phrased it: ...what we know is...and that's all we will ever need. :rolleyes: It strikes me as lazy or narrow-minded, which is fine if you like it. But I am not like that.


You may think that having faith is being narrow-minded, however, I think unwilligness to have faith based on your "freethinking" is lazy, narrow-minded, and selfish.

But.....thats fine if you like it.

But, I'm not like that.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
I'm with you there Dio. It would be nice to believe the story about heaven and eternal paradise, but there's no reason to expect that there's any truth to it whatever. If there is an afterlife, it remains unknown to the living, and I rather hope that it's a good long while before I discover the truth of the matter. :D

Ah Pagan, I hope its a long while until you leave this world and have it proven to you, although, I hope somehow someway Christ will open you eyes before then.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Ah Pagan, I hope its a long while until you leave this world and have it proven to you, although, I hope somehow someway Christ will open you eyes before then.
Gods, will you please SHUT UP? We've all heard that before...and it's beginning to grate on my nerves...I don't pester you about your religion, why should you pester other people about theirs?

Binks:

You can think of me any way you like. However the fact is that the way you approach my topic or many other religion topics makes it difficult to have interesting, intelligent debate. When I ask questions or encourage people to participate in some pondering, you attempted a little bit which was very nice, but then u start repeat the same things over and over again (mostly preachy), and you do this on most topics here, just like Borg said. There is no problem in anyone having faith. It's just that you don't seem willing to cogitate about alternatives, question things. If you have all your religious beliefs figured out completely, what pleasure do you derive from participating in these topics?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
You may think that having faith is being narrow-minded, however, I think unwilligness to have faith based on your "freethinking" is lazy, narrow-minded, and selfish.

Having faith isn't narrow-minded at all. Being unwilling to question your faith is.

Although deeply insulted and hurt, I will tell why it is important to have faith.

Why must we believe God? Hebrews 11:6 says, "But without faith it is impossible to please God, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

"Whatever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23) and God hates sin. When we don't believe God, we treat Him like He is a liar. Remember that He is everywhere and sees all things. He is hurt when we act like He doesn't exist, or that He will not do what He promised to do. Only when we have confidence in God and His Word can we please Him.

Lack of faith leads to lack of obedience. God's commands can only really be fulfilled through faith. Without confidence in God's promises a man will never really do what God says. Lack of obedience in God's eyes is rebellion. Such lack of obedience dishonors God and surely deserves to be punished.

"The just shall live by faith" (Romans 1:17). We must live by faith in order to be considered by God "right" and "correct". Otherwise we stand condemned.

Those who don't believe God inevitably believe in something else. Either religious tradition, or their understanding of science, or what the women's magazine says, or what their next door neighbour tells them, the education system, the mass-media or a combination of all these things. God is not impressed. "Professing to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:22) In fact, those who don't fully believing God end up believing the devil somewhere along the track. It is very possible to believe what the devil says without even believing that he exists! Satan is speaking through so many philosophies and religions without openly declaring himself. Not too many actually know they are trusting the words of satan and his demons.

God is therefore righteous in expecting us to believe in Him and what He says. Who is better qualified to tell us the truth and help us to find answers for life and eternity?

The sad thing I see here is that the Christian religion must quote from ONE book to prove any point of their faith. It requires no free thinking, no experimentation, no open-mindedness. Just blind belief in words written centuries ago by men.

Dio, if I understand your original statements, you are raising questions of possible memory carry over if a soul exists.
Science would have us believe that certain organic lobes of the brain contain memory cells. Thus by this thinking the memory would die with the deteriation of the brain.

Another view could be that the soul has the memory and thru the sub-concious the concious mind searches its archives for necessary retreval of information. This drawing upon memory could be limited to ones learned methods of retreval. There could even be different levels of memory. The usual memory that most of us are familiar with and a yet even lower memory that can only be accessed thru certain learned methods. Even in the memory we are familiar with certain individuals have total recall which amazes the rest of us. It has been shown that thru certain practice techniques memory can be improved upon. This fact adds credibility that technique is the limitation.

Another thing to ponder is that if the soul continues and the spirit is free to roam the universe- would the soul really take the time to remember petty things when such wonder is now present?

Could be that we should take into consideration the theory of Collective Memory. Maybe this is what is passed on.
Collective memory can best be described as that which a species has learned. The guide that allows a bee to make honey. Or the bee that finds flowers then returns to the hive and does a dance that tells the other bees which direction to go in, and how far to find the flowers.
In other words the things that occur in nature for which there is no school.
Could humans have a collective memory that continues?

Could be that we should take into consideration the theory of Collective Memory. Maybe this is what is passed on.
Collective memory can best be described as that which a species has learned. The guide that allows a bee to make honey. Or the bee that finds flowers then returns to the hive and does a dance that tells the other bees which direction to go in, and how far to find the flowers.
In other words the things that occur in nature for which there is no school.
Could humans have a collective memory that continues?

Very intesting. I think about this all the time. I believe it is evident, although lots don't see it .
An idea I picked up from the "Clan Of The Cave Bear" series.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
The sad thing I see here is that the Christian religion must quote from ONE book to prove any point of their faith. It requires no free thinking, no experimentation, no open-mindedness. Just blind belief in words written centuries ago by men.


The bible is Gods all inspired infalliable word, nothing else is needed.

Jere, did not make that statement as an insult. Merely was thinking how easy faith would be if accompanied with overwhelming evidence. Rather than having to rely on centuries old writings.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The bible is Gods all inspired infalliable word, nothing else is needed.
How exactly do you know that?

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Jere, did not make that statement as an insult. Merely was thinking how easy faith would be if accompanied with overwhelming evidence. Rather than having to rely on centuries old writings.

I know you didnt mean anything bad by it Dan. If my response led you to think I was lashing back or something, I apologize.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
How exactly do you know that?

Borg,

We know this because God tells us, for example, through Isaiah below:

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" --Isaiah 55:11.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Borg,

We know this because God tells us, for example, through Isaiah below:

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" --Isaiah 55:11.
And so you believe the Bible is God's word because the Bible says so? Jere...that is SO fallacious...the fallacy in question is called "Begging the Question". Surely there must be a better reason than that? And don't give me some "you must have faith" cop-out...

Borg,

I can not make you believe Gods word.

I cant give you an endless amount of proof, that is true.

I guess in the end, I have my faith, and you have your reason. I cant elaborate any further without seeming preachy, so I'll just stop there.

But in regards to your question about do I believe the bible just because it says so, my answer is absolutely.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

But in regards to your question about do I believe the bible just because it says so, my answer is absolutely.

To put the question another way jere, what made you accept the Bible as the word of God?

Other than that it says so, of course. ;)

And i have a question JJB...

Are you suggesting that any non-bible scripture or belief is really the work of Satan?....

And perhaps that the reason people (like myself or Vlie or any non-christians) haven't had our "eyes opened by Jesus Christ", because the big bad scary devil is clouding our vision......

Please please explain to me why, then has god only succeeded in creating Christians out of %10 of the worlds population?

Is this to say that the Devil is winning?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
To put the question another way jere, what made you accept the Bible as the word of God?

There are many things that backs up that the bible is God's word. I will give you examples, and biblical verses that correspond.

Isaiah 46:9,10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"

In this passage God declared that fulfilled prophecy is an absolute proof that He alone is God, and that the Scriptures are given by inspiration of God .

No one but God can accurately predict detailed events in the future.

There are hundreds of Biblical prophecies concerning the life, death, and resurrection of the promised Messiah, Jesus Christ. Consider just a few here:

1. Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem

Old Testament prediction:

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel

New Testament fulfillment
Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king


2. Jesus would enter Jerusalem on a colt

OT prediction
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.


NT fulfillment

Luke 19:35-37 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon. And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way. And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen


3. Jesus would have his hands and feet pierced

OT prediction
Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
NT fulfillment
Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.


It is significant that not one of the hundreds of religious books outside of the Bible contain detailed predictions about future events. God is the only one who can predict the future with 100% accuracy

Another example of God's power through his word is that The Bible contains advanced scientific knowledge.
The Bible is not a scientific book; however, when it does make scientific statements, they are absolutely stunning in their accuracy.

Job 28:24-26 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;
To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.
When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder

In this statement the Bible reveals that the winds are governed by their weight, scientists have only figured this out in the last century.
How could Job have known that the air and the wind patterns are governed by their actual weight? Meteorologists have found that the relative weights of the wind and water greatly determine the weather patterns.
Also, this passage says there is a scientific connection between lightning, thunder, and the triggering of rainfall.


Ecclesiastes 1:7, "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again."

How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know the water cycle of condensation and evaporation? The sun evaporates water from the ocean, water vapor rises and becomes clouds. This water in the clouds falls back to the earth as rain, collects in rivers, and makes its way back to the ocean. This wasn't known until Galileo in 1630! How did the writer of Ecclesiastes know this in 1000 B.C.? 2500 YEARS AHEAD OF SCIENCE!



Isaiah 40:22, "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH."

How did Isaiah know in 700 B.C. the earth is round? The scientists of Isaiah's day thought the earth was flat. They didn't discover the earth is round until the early 1500s when Magellan sailed around the world. How did Isaiah know something over 2000 years ahead of science?


Yet another example? How about the fact that The Bible contains advanced medical knowledge.

The advanced information in the Bible, written over 3,000 years ago, in the first five books, (Genesis through Deuteronomy), is strong proof that God inspired the writers of the Scriptures.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood...

Doctors have discovered that our blood is essential to many of our body's life processes. When the blood supply is restricted to any part of the body, that part begins immediately to die.
For centuries doctors, in their ignorance, used to "bleed" their patients by draining large amounts of blood from their bodies in a vain attempt to get rid of disease. They didn't know that our blood is the key to our flesh. The Bible is accurate in saying, " the life of the flesh is in the blood."



Only the word and power of God could be so perfect, as is demonstrated in the prior examples.

The bible is God's word.

But JJB.......you didn't address my questions.

Jere, I have predicted certain events with 100% accuracy.
In front of witnesses, hours before they occured, in absolute detail. I cannot 100%control this, but it does happen from time to time and I am not nor do I claim to be God. Yet, you say only God can see the future according to the Biblel. Can the Bible be wrong sometimes? Or is this merely your mis-interpretation?

Years ago I asked a Minister about my seeing certain events before they transpired and what did he think of this.

His answer suprised me when he said it was the work of the Devil. Pray more.

Originally posted by Dan Fussell
Jere, I have predicted certain events with 100% accuracy.
In front of witnesses, hours before they occured, in absolute detail. I cannot 100%control this, but it does happen from time to time and I am not nor do I claim to be God. Yet, you say only God can see the future according to the Biblel. Can the Bible be wrong sometimes? Or is this merely your mis-interpretation?

Years ago I asked a Minister about my seeing certain events before they transpired and what did he think of this.

His answer suprised me when he said it was the work of the Devil. Pray more.

Dan,

While I respect you tramendously, I must ask you, have you been perfect on all of your "future seeings?"

You may have the gift to analyze facts and make an accurate prediction on things in the near hours or possibly even years...but do you have the power to look into the future hundreds and thousands of years ahead and be perfectly accurate over and over.

There are hundreds and hundreds of prophecies that for the ones that have occured have been exact in all perfectness.


You are right in saying you are not God. Because there is, and has always been one God.


I do not think your predictions are the work of the devil.....many people are born with the ability to make accurate predictions. We call them anaylists.

Originally posted by creetwins
And i have a question JJB...

Are you suggesting that any non-bible scripture or belief is really the work of Satan?....

I never suggested anything remotely similar, but for kicks, I will field the question....

If you are refering to "non-Bible scripture" as things such as The Book of Morman and new books of the bible, and stuff like that, than yes that is absolutely wrong. The bible condems taking away or adding to the word of God.

And perhaps that the reason people (like myself or Vlie or any non-christians) haven't had our "eyes opened by Jesus Christ", because the big bad scary devil is clouding our vision......

Absolutely.

It is the devils work that you can not get passed your mind and logic to have faith in God.

However, the devil could give a crap about you after that. It is enough to say he doesnt want you to be a christian....but you are at the bottom of his priority list. He is after the big game...those who serve christ. Those who are on fire for the lord.

The bible says that even the lukewarm christians will be spewed out of his mouth....so where does that leave you....at the bottom rung of the ladder.

I of course mean this in no disrespect, but you asked if the devil had anything to do with your non willingness to accept Christ, and I answered.

Please please explain to me why, then has god only succeeded in creating Christians out of %10 of the worlds population?

I have no idea where you get your numbers....but I did some research and the very lowest number I could find was 33% and that was done by a athiest group.

There are factors in why the number appears low to you.

One are athiests such as yourself.

Two are believers who do not feel they can live right and be a Christian.

Three are believers who are affraid of losing something in the process such as a partner or a friend.

The devil does his work in many ways, and sadly many people fall for his lies and tricks.

On the other hand, more and more people are accepting Christ as their personal savior every day through the work of missionaries, crusades, revivals, and just attending church with a loved one.



Is this to say that the Devil is winning?

Of course not.

We already know the outcome of this, and that is that the devil will be thrown into the bottomless pit, and into the lake of fire, for all eternity.

So the devil is not winning, nor will he ever be winning, anytime in eternity.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The bible says that even the lukewarm christians will be spewed out of his mouth....so where does that leave you....at the bottom rung of the ladder.

I'm not quite sure what a lukewarm Christian is, but from most of the evangelical Christians I've talked to, I qualify, since I'm not a member of their particular branch of Christianity. I'll be joining the rest of you in hell!

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
It is the devils work that you can not get passed your mind and logic to have faith in God.

However, the devil could give a crap about you after that. It is enough to say he doesnt want you to be a christian....but you are at the bottom of his priority list. He is after the big game...those who serve christ. Those who are on fire for the lord.
Bullshit. It's MY work. I used to be a Christian, and then logic and reason kicked in. Thus, I am not today, because I reasoned that it is illogical to believe in a god when no proof exists.
Originally posted by LionelHutz
I'm not quite sure what a lukewarm Christian is, but from most of the evangelical Christians I've talked to, I qualify, since I'm not a member of their particular branch of Christianity. I'll be joining the rest of you in hell!
Yay! It'll be more fun with you anyway. ;)

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I'm not quite sure what a lukewarm Christian is, but from most of the evangelical Christians I've talked to, I qualify, since I'm not a member of their particular branch of Christianity. I'll be joining the rest of you in hell!

A lukewarm christian is someone who accepts Christ as their savior...and then never does anything about it. Never tried to serve the lord.

Lionel, the only thing you have to do is accept Christ as your savior. Dont let people tell you that you dont qualify because you may believe different things than them.

The grace of our lord Jesus Christ is the only thing that can save you.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Bullshit. It's MY work. I used to be a Christian, and then logic and reason kicked in. Thus, I am not today, because I reasoned that it is illogical to believe in a god when no proof exists.



I disagree.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I disagree.
Disagree all you want, no mystical demons interfere in my life.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Disagree all you want, no mystical demons interfere in my life.

And you can deny it all you want, but they do.

Absolutely. It is the devils work that you can not get passed your mind and logic to have faith in God.

Ho ho hold the show.........who said anywhere that I have no faith in God? I said non cristian, not atheist. I can have all three. I may not believe there is a devil wooing me toward wrongdoing, and yet I know that evil exists. I am very aware of evils and in no way do I support evil. The devil is a metaphor for a side that exists in all of us, that of which makes us uncomfortable. Better blame it on the devil, than come to terms and take responsiblilty for acheiving and challenging and improving in ones spirit. The devil doesn't scare me, cause I seen evil in men, and it's a tough lesson but good will ALWAYS prevail. I didn't need Jesus to teach me that.

And by the way, I see the work of God's graceful hand everyday and I'm in constant wonder at the beauty and order and chaos of his beautiful creations.



I have no idea where you get your numbers....but I did some research and the very lowest number I could find was 33% and that was done by a athiest group. There are factors in why the number appears low to you. One are athiests such as yourself.

Does being a non-christian make me an atheist? Or weak and easily swayed by your Satan. Your Satan doesn't scare me, it's the capabilies of man that scares me.

Originally posted by creetwins
Ho ho hold the show.........who said anywhere that I have no faith in God? I said non cristian, not atheist. I can have all three. I may not believe there is a devil wooing me toward wrongdoing, and yet I know that evil exists. I am very aware of evils and in no way do I support evil. The devil is a metaphor for a side that exists in all of us, that of which makes us uncomfortable. Better blame it on the devil, than come to terms and take responsiblilty for acheiving and challenging and improving in ones spirit. The devil doesn't scare me, cause I seen evil in men, and it's a tough lesson but good will ALWAYS prevail. I didn't need Jesus to teach me that.

And by the way, I see the work of God's graceful hand everyday and I'm in constant wonder at the beauty and order and chaos of his beautiful creations.



One are athiests such as yourself.

Does being a non-christian make me an atheist? Or weak and easily swayed by your Satan. Your Satan doesn't scare me, it's the capabilies of man that scares me.

How can you say your a believer in God and then turn around and say you dont need Jesus to show you the way, and not believe the bible?

It doesnt matter how much you see God's work.....if you dont have the salvation of Christ in your heart.

How can you say your a believer in God and then turn around and say you dont need Jesus to show you the way, and not believe the bible? It doesnt matter how much you see God's work.....if you dont have the salvation of Christ in your heart.

Sigh, you so sure of yourself. This kind of attitude doesn't lend itself to be very tolerant of other cultures and their belief systems, and peoples right to believe what they want without being told they are going to hell if they don't believe exactly the way you do. It also has the tendancy for one group to believe they are more right and preferred by God. This won't lead us to harmony and peace, it only leads to divide. The ominous looming threat of a burning pit of firy eternal suffering serves as a perfect tool to keep Christians afraid. Why should fear dominate so much in a religion?

WHy not accept the possibilities that there may be many ways to serve your life in goodness? And admit that you do not know the secrets of the Universe?

Originally posted by creetwins
Sigh, you so sure of yourself. This kind of attitude doesn't lend itself to be very tolerant of other cultures and their belief systems, and peoples right to believe what they want without being told they are going to hell if they don't believe exactly the way you do. It also has the tendancy for one group to believe they are more right and preferred by God. This won't lead us to harmony and peace, it only leads to divide. The ominous looming threat of a burning pit of firy eternal suffering serves as a perfect tool to keep Christians afraid. Why should fear dominate so much in a religion?

WHy not accept the possibilities that there may be many ways to serve your life in goodness? And admit that you do not know the secrets of the Universe?

That did not answer any question I asked you, in no strecth of the most linent imagination.

You told me you believe in God....then you say you dont believe in his word or Christs power over you.

Seems to me like you only want to believe in the pretty things God made.....but living for him? spreading his Gospel? Accepting the son that he sent to die on the cross for your sins?

Nah, your logics too good for that, eh?



We are not talking about other religions right now. You SAID that YOU believed in GOD. THE GOD. And then you said you dont believe in Christ, Bible, etc etc.


Now....would you like to fill me in, with an actual answer to my question?

Seems to me like you only want to believe in the pretty things God made.....but living for him? spreading his Gospel? Accepting the son that he sent to die on the cross for your sins?

You can go around and say and say and say what other people should believe "speading the Gospel" but I don't believe in that. I chose to lead a good path, and to affect others by positive actions.

Yes you can believe in god Without accepting Jesus as more than a swell guy. It's not my job to tell people they are sinners for not going my way, or your way or the other way.

And as for God. The world is a bigger place than your corner of the cabbage patch. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Same goes for God. Who are you to tell me any different that if I don't see it through your colored glasses then I am doomed? I do my best to do his work, for the greater good. I am greatful and thankful all the time. I have doubt and moments of weakness, but there he is again, winking at me, yes through the simple and pretty creations., it is not my place to tell you I think you are wrong, but I don't threaten you with eternal damnation, for thinking what you do.

We are not talking about other religions right now. You SAID that YOU believed in GOD. THE GOD. And then you said you dont believe in Christ, Bible, etc etc.

BUt you see we are. You are there in your neck of the woods raised the way you were, taught the things you were, believeing the things you do. Here I am , raised the way I was, taught the things I was, believing the things I do, in the culture that I know.

The only difference between you and me is I do not threaten you with hell for not knowing MY beliefs. Go ahead and believe what you do in your way, and question my ways all you want as I do yours, just don't threaten me with pain and suffering for not being your way.

Many people believe in one God yet do not believe in Jesus or the christian Bible.

Originally posted by creetwins
You can go around and say and say and say what other people should believe "speading the Gospel" but I don't believe in that. I chose to lead a good path, and to affect others by positive actions.

Yes you can believe in god Without accepting Jesus as more than a swell guy. It's not my job to tell people they are sinners for not going my way, or your way or the other way.

And as for God. The world is a bigger place than your corner of the cabbage patch. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Same goes for God. Who are you to tell me any different that if I don't see it through your colored glasses then I am doomed? I do my best to do his work, for the greater good. I am greatful and thankful all the time. I have doubt and moments of weakness, but there he is again, winking at me, yes through the simple and pretty creations., it is not my place to tell you I think you are wrong, but I don't threaten you with eternal damnation, for thinking what you do.

Well its not MY place to tell you where youll end up, however God's word says different.


The only way to the Father is through Christ.

quoted by JJB
"Well its not MY place to tell you where youll end up, however God's word says different.


The only way to the Father is through Christ."

You are right, it's not your place yet you continue to feel comfortable in doing so.

Originally posted by creetwins
quoted by JJB
"Well its not MY place to tell you where youll end up, however God's word says different.


The only way to the Father is through Christ."

You are right, it's not your place yet you continue to feel comfortable in doing so.


I have never told you are going to Hell...however, the Bible teaches that you can not get into Heaven but by Christ.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I have never told you are going to Hell...however, the Bible teaches that you can not get into Heaven but by Christ.
According to Christian doctrine, if you are not going to Heaven, you are going to Hell (unless you subscribe to the Catholic belief in purgatory). Therefore, if you say she is not going to Heaven, then by default she is going to Hell.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
According to Christian doctrine, if you are not going to Heaven, you are going to Hell (unless you subscribe to the Catholic belief in purgatory). Therefore, if you say she is not going to Heaven, then by default she is going to Hell.

Fair Enough Borg.

But what I was getting at, was saying, that I have never said that she will go to hell.

In other words she still has time to accept Christ and go to Heaven.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

But what I was getting at, was saying, that I have never said that she will go to hell.

In other words she still has time to accept Christ and go to Heaven.

Creetwins didn't say that you said she was going to hell...she quoted you saying:

"Well its not MY place to tell you where youll end up,

And she said:

You are right, it's not your place yet you continue to feel comfortable in doing so.

Are you saying now that it's ok for you to tell people they are NOT going to heaven, which of course means they ARE going to hell, as long as you don't outright say they are going to hell?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Creetwins didn't say that you said she was going to hell...she quoted you saying:


And she said:


Are you saying now that it's ok for you to tell people they are NOT going to heaven, which of course means they ARE going to hell, as long as you don't outright say they are going to hell?

No Vile.

I am saying, the Bible says, that Christ is the only way to Heaven.

Take it however you want. I want everyone to go to Heaven, and I hope that you all do. (I mean this in no disrespect to anyone who is offended by me wanting that). But God's word says that he is the only way.