How does everyone feel about pluralism? I was taken aback by someone in the local paper that stated that whatever God we believed in didnt matter because the one we call Christ is also Allah,Buddah, Confusious, Mother Nature, and it is all the same. Does anyone see anything wrong with this.

I think this is a bunch of bull myself, I believe that we are to serve one God and that is the triune God of Christianity. I cannot say that the current doctorine of pluralism is useless and contradictory as well as paganistic.


Anyone elses thoughts?

I think in this country we are allowed to have whatever beliefs we want to. I happen to agree with this idea that we (organized religion) worship the same God. Whatever name we put to him/her. I think that people put too much emphasis on how they define their faith (i.e. baptist, amish, jewish, muslim) and not enough emphasis on where it should be. Worshipping the creator and honoring him/her.

I call myself a christian, but as you can see i have my own ideas about how a christian should carry himself. I do not think adhereing strictly to everything that is written in the bible was God's intention because it was written by man. And man is fallable. Try telling your best friend a story sometime then asking this friend to retell it to your mom or dad. I guarantee that story will be different than the one you told your best friend.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I think in this country we are allowed to have whatever beliefs we want to. I happen to agree with this idea that we (organized religion) worship the same God. Whatever name we put to him/her. I think that people put too much emphasis on how they define their faith (i.e. baptist, amish, jewish, muslim) and not enough emphasis on where it should be. Worshipping the creator and honoring him/her.

I agree that emphasis should be put on SERVING God....but only God. There IS only one God.

I call myself a christian, but as you can see i have my own ideas about how a christian should carry himself. I do not think adhereing strictly to everything that is written in the bible was God's intention because it was written by man. And man is fallable. Try telling your best friend a story sometime then asking this friend to retell it to your mom or dad. I guarantee that story will be different than the one you told your best friend.


Well Its a tad bit different in this case.

This isnt just some kid telling their buddy a secret. This is the unfallable word of God given to men who he selected out of everyone to record.

God would not allow something as important as his word to be messed up by the men writing it.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Well Its a tad bit different in this case.

This isnt just some kid telling their buddy a secret. This is the unfallable word of God given to men who he selected out of everyone to record.

God would not allow something as important as his word to be messed up by the men writing it.
Then explain all the inconsistencies in the Bible...

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Then explain all the inconsistencies in the Bible... There is no plausible explaination if it is indeed the word of God verbatim. Too many inconsistancies. Man is fallable, God is not. Therefore any inconsistancies has to be in the INTERPRETATION of God's word.

Too many people who consider themselves "believers", whatever their faith may be, bastardize the word of God through their interpretation of what He is saying. Thats why so many people are commiting atrocities that they believe to be in His name.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Well Its a tad bit different in this case.

This isnt just some kid telling their buddy a secret. This is the unfallable word of God given to men who he selected out of everyone to record.

God would not allow something as important as his word to be messed up by the men writing it. There was only one man created perfect in the history of the world. And last I heard, he didnt have a chapter of the bible. Men make mistakes. Even supposedly great men of God make mistakes. I dont see how anyone could just blindly follow a book that was written so long ago. The very definition of a lot of the words are not even close to being the same in todays world.

How is that you think you know God's will? How do you know what He would or would not allow? Too many people think they know what God wants, and the simple fact is that unless He has spoken to you from a burning bush, or whatever form of communication He uses in todays world, you can only assume what He wants. So if you are only living on an assumption of what is truly God's word, why are you trying to tell someone what He truly means? Your time would be better spent praising the glory of God IMO.

Originally posted by HaVoK
There was only one man created perfect in the history of the world. And last I heard, he didnt have a chapter of the bible. Men make mistakes. Even supposedly great men of God make mistakes. I dont see how anyone could just blindly follow a book that was written so long ago. The very definition of a lot of the words are not even close to being the same in todays world.

How is that you think you know God's will? How do you know what He would or would not allow? Too many people think they know what God wants, and the simple fact is that unless He has spoken to you from a burning bush, or whatever form of communication He uses in todays world, you can only assume what He wants. So if you are only living on an assumption of what is truly God's word, why are you trying to tell someone what He truly means? Your time would be better spent praising the glory of God IMO.

Why would God allow there to be mistakes in the Bible? It may have been written by men, but it is still HIS word. And God's word is infalliable.

I give you that I know not what God's will is, but I know it is perfect. If it werent God's will for us to have the bible as it is, we wouldnt have it.

There are defantely people out there who take things in the bible as to tell them they can do very stupid things, but we as believers have to trust God that our minds and ignorance dont let us make the same mistakes.

Put your trust in God, and everything else falls into place.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Why would God allow there to be mistakes in the Bible? It may have been written by men, but it is still HIS word. And God's word is infalliable.

Because he didn't write it. It's a recording, by man, of the events and happenings of the time. To me it's more like a newspaper than an autobiography.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Because he didn't write it. It's a recording, by man, of the events and happenings of the time. To me it's more like a newspaper than an autobiography.

Like I said,

Its still GOD'S WORD!!!

God's word is infalliable. Man may be, but God isn't. Our God is perfect in all things...and just because he designated the actual labor of writing the bible to human men, it is still his word.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Like I said,

Its still GOD'S WORD!!!

God's word is infalliable. Man may be, but God isn't. Our God is perfect in all things...and just because he designated the actual labor of writing the bible to human men, it is still his word.
God may be perfect...but he did not write the Bible. Men did. People make mistakes. For example, in the reply that is forthcoming to me, how many typos did you make that you had to Backspace to to fix? I had some in this. No person is perfect. And it is PEOPLE who wrote the Bible.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
God may be perfect...but he did not write the Bible. Men did. People make mistakes. For example, in the reply that is forthcoming to me, how many typos did you make that you had to Backspace to to fix? I had some in this. No person is perfect. And it is PEOPLE who wrote the Bible.


Correction, one (had my first backspace right there:D) person was perfect and that was Jesus Christ.

However in saying that, how do we know, that the men writing this were not given the ability while writing their respective books to not make a mistake.

God can do anything. There is no proof that he couldnt have just not allowed them to make mistakes. He can do as he pleases, all things are possible through him.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
However in saying that, how do we know, that the men writing this were not given the ability while writing their respective books to not make a mistake.
By noticing all the inconsistencies in the Bible we can reasonably ascertain that the people writing the Bible were not granted supernatural powers.

All the inconsistencies in the Bible? All of them? You mean every single inconsistency in the whole Bible?
I'm feeling a touch of panic, someone...hold me!!

What if someone actually gives an example of a Biblical inconsistency? Christians may have to learn to research and study and discover for themselves that the inconsistencies offered are not actually inconsistencies.

Why, if that happens, the Christians may start demonstrating the accuracy and power of the Word of God, which may shake the great blind faith of the atheists. That's just not right.

What if people start finding out that Jesus Christ really did die on the cross for our sin, and that he really did rise from the dead, what if they started finding peace, joy, fulfillment and salvation?

Oh, wait, come to think of it, that would actually be great...

Let's just forget about the whole someone hold me thing... K?

Originally posted by stark
All the inconsistencies in the Bible? All of them? You mean every single inconsistency in the whole Bible?
I'm feeling a touch of panic, someone...hold me!!

What if someone actually gives an example of a Biblical inconsistency? Christians may have to learn to research and study and discover for themselves that the inconsistencies offered are not actually inconsistencies.

Why, if that happens, the Christians may start demonstrating the accuracy and power of the Word of God, which may shake the great blind faith of the atheists. That's just not right.

What if people start finding out that Jesus Christ really did die on the cross for our sin, and that he really did rise from the dead, what if they started finding peace, joy, fulfillment and salvation?

Oh, wait, come to think of it, that would actually be great...

Let's just forget about the whole someone hold me thing... K?

wow, ur good.

lol.

Have a website full of them: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Look through that, you can even get the Koran and the Book of Mormon.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Have a website full of them: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Look through that, you can even get the Koran and the Book of Mormon.


I cant get explorer to open any of the books, but I am sure its a load of horse crap anyway, lol.

That's because you're using Internet Explorer. HAIL FIREFOX!

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
Directly to the contradictions page.

Those are pitiful examples....

The chief priests bought the potter's field. Judas bought the potter's field.
Mt.27:6
"And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field." Acts 1:18
"Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity."


Heres a random one...and ill just explain it.

The first verse is saying that they priets used it to buy Potters field as they did, the 2nd is just saying that through Judas's inquity the field was bought.

His betrayl(which gained the money) led to the eventual buying of potters field.

Blibblob, pick your very favorite "inconsistency" and bring it on in, let's see if it sinks or swims...
I've brought my snorkel.

Jere,
B-I-N-G-O bingo, on that post about potters field.

You had said earlier:
"wow, ur good."

Actually, God is good, I'm just hanging on and learning more with every challange to the Christian faith.

Thanks Stark,

And I'll 2nd the challenge you posed to Blib.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Like I said,

Its still GOD'S WORD!!!

How do you know? And if your answer is "because they bible says so" then you get 40 lashes for circular logic.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
How do you know? And if your answer is "because they bible says so" then you get 40 lashes for circular logic.

Oh, Lionel, dont come to me with lashes based on your logical ignorance. Logic is just doubt transformed into false evidence. And you can quote me:D


Also, are you a Reds or Bengals fan...I try to get up to Cincy as much as possible.

In order to find glaring inconsistencies in the Bible, you needn't look past the first two chapters...

From Genesis 1

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


And...


From Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(break)
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


There seems to be two different stories here. In chapter one God created man and woman together, in his image, and tells them to go forth and multiply...in chapter two God creates Adam, then the animals, and then he creates woman because Adam is lonely.

Note also that according to the first chapter, fowls were created on day 5, and man on day six, but in the second chapter, man is created before the fowls, and they are brought before Adam to be named. Big discrepancy.

That being said, this debate really belongs in the "Biblical Accuracy" thread...

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Also, are you a Reds or Bengals fan...I try to get up to Cincy as much as possible.

Neither! I'm a Packer fan and I don't care much for baseball, although I usually go to about one Reds game each year.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Neither! I'm a Packer fan ...

:flowers:

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Neither! I'm a Packer fan and I don't care much for baseball, although I usually go to about one Reds game each year.

OIC

I always come up (or atleast try) when the Cubs are in town. Its a good thing their not a hostile crowd because I'd probably be killed.

Hmmm...the "challenge" you seconded was taken up jere...no response?

Originally posted by Vilepagan
:flowers:

Right back at ya, big guy! :drinktoth

Vile, I can explain almost all of the Genesis inconsistancies really quickly. I'll piss off every Christian in the process.

"Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..."

As you can see, it's plural, more than one god. The bible pretranslated said Elohim. Which is plural Eloah, which means "One worthy of praise", a god. Elohim is the plural version, and roughly translated could easily mean Pantheon, the Greek group of gods. Now then, before finishing explaining this I will call upon more verses:

"Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"
Which means that the Earth and the Heavens were premade before "LORD God" touched it.

"Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed."
AND, "LORD God" created new man from dust. And placed that man, Adam in Eden.

What is with the new usage of "LORD God" instead of just "God", even the translated version? Why, it's a different name used, Yahueh. Why the sudden change of name? From one that is plural title or description, to a personalish name? It's a different god. A group of gods made the Universe, and populated earth with animals and humans. And this one god, Yahueh, created a paradise on this Earth for the man he created. That also explains where Cain got his wife. Where all of those wives came from, as Adam had basically all boys.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
In order to find glaring inconsistencies in the Bible, you needn't look past the first two chapters...


And...



There seems to be two different stories here. In chapter one God created man and woman together, in his image, and tells them to go forth and multiply...in chapter two God creates Adam, then the animals, and then he creates woman because Adam is lonely.

Note also that according to the first chapter, fowls were created on day 5, and man on day six, but in the second chapter, man is created before the fowls, and they are brought before Adam to be named. Big discrepancy.

That being said, this debate really belongs in the "Biblical Accuracy" thread...


No, your looking too deep again.

The animals were brought to Adam to name and to attempt to find a helper. Just because it says out of the ground formed...doesnt mean he was doing it right then. He had already made these animals which he brought to Adam to name.


Also, the story in chapter one doesnt mean they were created together. It is simply giving you a day by day synopsis of the events that occured during the making of the world.

Oh, right challenge. It's funny how you pick one minor "contradiction" out of a list of 300 contradictions.

My biggest question is how did the jealous, cruel, arrogant, hateful, wicked god of the Old Testament go? Jesus speaks of a good god. I want a Christian perspective, I have a guess of my own.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Oh, right challenge. It's funny how you pick one minor "contradiction" out of a list of 300 contradictions.

My biggest question is how did the jealous, cruel, arrogant, hateful, wicked god of the Old Testament go? Jesus speaks of a good god. I want a Christian perspective, I have a guess of my own.

God has never been a hatefull or wicked God.

He is all loving, all powerful, all knowing, and all everything. You speak blasphemy in saying that.

Their list is 678 items long in cruelty (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html), we also have a 263 long list of intolerance.
God has probably killed more people than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and all of the African kings combined. He also condems countless more to death from a few sins. AND he sends every human to hell except for the select few Christians.

I like my Genesis post that was lost on the last page. *Whistles, and really doesn't like ignored posts due to page changes... in fact, hates page changes*

Originally posted by Blibblob
Their list is 678 items long in cruelty (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html), we also have a 263 long list of intolerance.
God has probably killed more people than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and all of the African kings combined. He also condems countless more to death from a few sins. AND he sends every human to hell except for the select few Christians.

I like my Genesis post that was lost on the last page. *Whistles, and really doesn't like ignored posts due to page changes... in fact, hates page changes*

God has not killed anyone. Ignorance has killed people.

He does not condem the world for sins. Christ said I do not come to condem the world, but through me the world might be saved.

In other words all you have to do is accept Christ as your savior to come to Heaven...and you blame the ignorance of those who dont accept and go to Hell on God.

Do you think in your nonbelief of Christ you deserve to go to Heaven?

God has not killed anyone.
Flood? Taking every first born child in Egypt? Or does that not count because they were "bad people", I don't see how an innocent first born of a family living in an area where a king wont give in counts as a bad person. Or is it just because they are nonbelievers? Oh, what a friendly god that is...

You have to accept Christ? What a wonderful requirement. Let's all give up our entire logical department to get into heaven. Hell doesn't make any sense period. Why would a loving god create a place so horrible? Let alone why would an angel who rebelled against him, because he didn't like slavery, want to help that god, that he's not on good terms with, hold the "bad people"? That makes no sense. My aunt and uncle don't even believe in hell. They are the most religious people I have ever met, yet they don't believe in a hell because they don't believe in a god that would subject people to an eternity of torture.

Let alone the fact that you can get into heaven for believing in Christ, but you may have just ruined the lives of countless people through you actions, while Ghandi rots in Hell. What kind of a god is that?! That's a loving god? Yeah fucking right.

You crack me up BlibBlob. You are scared of believing in God, and you look for anything you can to make him look bad.

How pathetic.:rolleyes:

A)The blob is not capitalised :D
B)How can I be afraid of something I don't believe exists?
C)Do you really think I would fall for that? I mean, if I backed you into a corner where you can't refute a damn thing I said, say that. Don't try to get witty, you're not good at it.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
You crack me up BlibBlob. You are scared of believing in God, and you look for anything you can to make him look bad.

How pathetic.:rolleyes:
Hard to admit you can't refute his argument, isn't it? Therefore you have to bring up irrelevant topics in an attempt to not only make him look bad, but to shift focus away from the topic at hand.

Not happening.

Originally posted by Blibblob
A)The blob is not capitalised :D
B)How can I be afraid of something I don't believe exists?
C)Do you really think I would fall for that? I mean, if I backed you into a corner where you can't refute a damn thing I said, say that. Don't try to get witty, you're not good at it.

A) I could care less if it is or not. ;)

B) So the only reason you have to not believe is because you dont think it makes sense...get real.

C) Aye, and the same to you. There is nothing in your argument to refute...in the end it doesnt matter what your opinion of hell and God's way is anyway. Gods will is greater than ours, no matter what you o so supreme "logic" tells you. Once again, logic is doubt turned into false evidence.

Ok...youre going to say your evidence was the flood and the taking of first born. In both instances this happened because they people refused to obey God. God gives and takes away. Life the same. Its different than saying God killed them.



I do not try to be witty, and I could care less what your opinion of me is, BlibBlob. I have only tried to help you understand that what you believe in (which is nothing) is going to lead you into Hell....but I guess your "logic" will get you out of it. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Hard to admit you can't refute his argument, isn't it? Therefore you have to bring up irrelevant topics in an attempt to not only make him look bad, but to shift focus away from the topic at hand.

Not happening.

Ah Borg....

I'm glad to see you felt like dropping in for a post.

Your opinion has been noted.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
There is nothing in your argument to refute...in the end it doesnt matter what your opinion of hell and God's way is anyway.
If you don't want to debate it, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE RELIGION FORUM!!!
Always a hot topic, discuss religious viewpoints here.
Ok...youre going to say your evidence was the flood and the taking of first born. In both instances this happened because they people refused to obey God. God gives and takes away. Life the same. Its different than saying God killed them.
No it isn't. It's EXACTLY the same. God took away their lives, thus God killed them.

in the end it doesnt matter what your opinion of hell and God's way is anyway. Gods will is greater than ours
Ha, nice cop out. I understand, be the voice of god. You could at least explain to me how all of those logical fallacies actually make sense.

Ok...youre going to say your evidence was the flood and the taking of first born. In both instances this happened because they people refused to obey God. God gives and takes away. Life the same. Its different than saying God killed them.
So it's perfectly fine to kill innocent children because a king doesn't want to listen? It's perfectly fine to kill every innocent animal on the planet except for two of each because the humans were bad? Tell me how this is a good god. Tell me how this is a smart god.

I have only tried to help you understand that what you believe in (which is nothing) is going to lead you into Hell....but I guess your "logic" will get you out of it.
The devil is a good friend of mine, we'll have tea every day at high time. Discuss Descartes, and plan the downfall of God's empire built on slavery.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Ha, nice cop out. I understand, be the voice of god. You could at least explain to me how all of those logical fallacies actually make sense. Ah, you dont get the point about this logical stuff do you??? It is fine and dandy for you to debate everything within your head and determine things on your own, but God's will is more than ours, and I admit things happen that we do not, and probably should not understand....its all part of faith. God is still a loving god, we just got to put our faith in him to get through it.

So it's perfectly fine to kill innocent children because a king doesn't want to listen? It's perfectly fine to kill every innocent animal on the planet except for two of each because the humans were bad? Tell me how this is a good god. Tell me how this is a smart god.

I have to admit, God's reason for these things are not known to me, but what I do know, is it is for the best. To you, and to an extent me, this may seem strange but God is all knowing. He knew before these things happnened that it was what had to happen.

Everything that happens, happens for a reason, and in the end it turns out for the better. Gods will is supreme.


The devil is a good friend of mine, we'll have tea every day at high time. Discuss Descartes, and plan the downfall of God's empire built on slavery.

lol, however funny, thats not what I meant. I do not want to see you go to Hell. I do not want to see you live life without Christ....but eventually youre going to have to make a decision between your logic and faith. Logic gets you to a dead end.....faith gets you to an eternal paradise....even if you have doubts why take that risk just to satisfy your logic??

Explain that to me. Open another thread if you have to, but I am interested in knowing why its worth the risk to deny God based on your logic.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
No, your looking too deep again.

To deep?...you mean two chapters into the bible is too deep?

He had already made these animals which he brought to Adam to name.


No jere it quite specifically says they were formed...as in created from earth...

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Jere, you're the one that says the Bible is God's word...how can you just disregard what it plainly says just to win a point in a debate...isn't that "pride"?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
If you don't want to debate it, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE RELIGION FORUM!!!


No it isn't. It's EXACTLY the same. God took away their lives, thus God killed them.

Ok, noted again.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Explain that to me. Open another thread if you have to, but I am interested in knowing why its worth the risk to deny God based on your logic.
Ah, but wait! Christianity is not the only religion on the planet. My question is...why are YOU risking the wrath of Allah by denying him? What about Zeus, he's probably pretty pissed off as well. And don't forget Ra...or Loki...for that matter, I believe that my cat is God, you'd better worship her, too!

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Ah, but wait! Christianity is not the only religion on the planet. My question is...why are YOU risking the wrath of Allah by denying him? What about Zeus, he's probably pretty pissed off as well. And don't forget Ra...or Loki...for that matter, I believe that my cat is God, you'd better worship her, too!


LMAO...

Like I said if you had as much faith as you do wit, youd be in good shape.

Perhaps. :p

Yet, I still want to know why risking the Christian God's wrath is riskier than risking Allah's wrath, say, or Zeus's. Scientifically, there's as much evidence for Allah as there is for Christian-God (i.e. zero).

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Perhaps. :p

Yet, I still want to know why risking the Christian God's wrath is riskier than risking Allah's wrath, say, or Zeus's. Scientifically, there's as much evidence for Allah as there is for Christian-God (i.e. zero).


I guess in a way you have a point.....but even so, wouldnt it be even more risky not to have any religion at all...

Lol, atleast I got a shot....:p

Vilepagan, this is not a discrepancy at all, let’s take a look. I‘m going to use the NIV version of the Bible, I‘m not into the King James, if you can‘t stand the NIV let me know and I‘ll talk over the King James anyway, on with the explanation.
First do you find it note worthy that the writer or teller of this account of creation missed this obvious “contradiction” and thus failed to fix it? How many times was this story written down or told by the carriers of this creation account, and was never corrected? There are only a few verses between them, you’d think someone would have noticed the problem. Is it possible that this account was written and kept as intended? I think it is.
Okay read chapter one of Genesis, here we have an orderly description of creation, day one light, / day two sky, / day three seas and vegetation, / day four sun moon and stars, / day five sea creatures and winged creatures, / day six land animals and man, / day seven rested.

Now read chapter 2. Here we go from the creation account as a whole to a focus of a more detailed creation of man. First look at chapter 2 verse 5 it says: “and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,” Okay, KEY POINT, the plants and shrubs had not sprung up. why? Because God had not sent rain on the earth, no rain means no water for the plants. Another KEY POINT, man was not yet created.

So what happens next? Verse six, “but streams (or mist in the KJV) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground--” We see that water has now arrived and has watered the ground which allows for the plants to spring up. Spring to verse 7, “the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

Question, how much time passed between verses 6 and 7?

Let’s go to chapter 1 verse 12 it says here that the land produced vegetation, (day 3) and in verse 26 it says man was created, (day 6)so we can go back to chapter 2 knowing how many days passed between verses 6 and 7. Three days.

Now verse 8 of chapter 2 we find the ground has been watered, the plants are growing, and man is living, what next? Next we find the focus going to a garden God had planted: “Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.” Remember, here the writer, or storyteller, of creation directs the attention of the reader to the Garden of Eden itself, and that at this point the rest of the world already has plants and animals, so in verses 9-25 we now see in detail how the garden was made. So real quick let’s look at two verses that are accused of being contradictory.

First let’s look at verse 9 of chapter 2: “And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-- trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
Where did God make all kinds of trees grow out of the ground? In the garden He had planted in the east, the Garden of Eden. Is this a contradiction? NO.

Look at another offending “contradiction” verse 19 of chapter 2:

Some suggest that this is a contradiction, saying that earlier in chapter 1 man was created after the animals, and now man is created before the animals, let’s look at this.

“Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.”
Do you notice that the verse doesn’t say: “and at this point God creates all the animals on the earth.” It instead says “Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts…and all the birds of the air.” Those two words “had formed” indicates that before this point of the story the animals where already in existence. Is this contrary to Genesis one? NO.

The question I have is this; after my explanation do you think this is a discrepancy?

You said:
“this debate really belongs in the "Biblical Accuracy" thread…”

I suppose you're right, but hey you and I can debate anywhere.

Originally posted by stark
Vilepagan, this is not a discrepancy at all, let’s take a look. I‘m going to use the NIV version of the Bible, I‘m not into the King James, if you can‘t stand the NIV let me know and I‘ll talk over the King James anyway, on with the explanation.
First do you find it note worthy that the writer or teller of this account of creation missed this obvious “contradiction” and thus failed to fix it? How many times was this story written down or told by the carriers of this creation account, and was never corrected? There are only a few verses between them, you’d think someone would have noticed the problem. Is it possible that this account was written and kept as intended? I think it is.
Okay read chapter one of Genesis, here we have an orderly description of creation, day one light, / day two sky, / day three seas and vegetation, / day four sun moon and stars, / day five sea creatures and winged creatures, / day six land animals and man, / day seven rested.

Now read chapter 2. Here we go from the creation account as a whole to a focus of a more detailed creation of man. First look at chapter 2 verse 5 it says: “and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,” Okay, KEY POINT, the plants and shrubs had not sprung up. why? Because God had not sent rain on the earth, no rain means no water for the plants. Another KEY POINT, man was not yet created.

So what happens next? Verse six, “but streams (or mist in the KJV) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground--” We see that water has now arrived and has watered the ground which allows for the plants to spring up. Spring to verse 7, “the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

Question, how much time passed between verses 6 and 7?

Let’s go to chapter 1 verse 12 it says here that the land produced vegetation, (day 3) and in verse 26 it says man was created, (day 6)so we can go back to chapter 2 knowing how many days passed between verses 6 and 7. Three days.

Now verse 8 of chapter 2 we find the ground has been watered, the plants are growing, and man is living, what next? Next we find the focus going to a garden God had planted: “Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.” Remember, here the writer, or storyteller, of creation directs the attention of the reader to the Garden of Eden itself, and that at this point the rest of the world already has plants and animals, so in verses 9-25 we now see in detail how the garden was made. So real quick let’s look at two verses that are accused of being contradictory.

First let’s look at verse 9 of chapter 2: “And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-- trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
Where did God make all kinds of trees grow out of the ground? In the garden He had planted in the east, the Garden of Eden. Is this a contradiction? NO.

Look at another offending “contradiction” verse 19 of chapter 2:

Some suggest that this is a contradiction, saying that earlier in chapter 1 man was created after the animals, and now man is created before the animals, let’s look at this.

“Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.”
Do you notice that the verse doesn’t say: “and at this point God creates all the animals on the earth.” It instead says “Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts…and all the birds of the air.” Those two words “had formed” indicates that before this point of the story the animals where already in existence. Is this contrary to Genesis one? NO.

The question I have is this; after my explanation do you think this is a discrepancy?

You said:
“this debate really belongs in the "Biblical Accuracy" thread…”

I suppose your right, but hey you and I can debate anywhere.

Stark, youre my hero. lol.:D

Boy there sure are alot of posts I'd like to "chat" about.
Blibblob I'm looking forward to answering yours. I've got to know...is your question about God killing people your favorite discrepancy? You remember I asked you to show us your favorite one? I mean we can talk about all six million or what ever the list is, but it's simpler to talk about one at a time.

I think Pluralism as a belief is as "valid" as any actual, organized religion. This is objectively speaking. However, many followers of organized religion, because of their belief, must limit their objectiveness some very little some quite a lot, and are not being ignorant if insisting their religion is the "true" or "better" religion and that Pluralism is "bullcrap". All religions are based on faith. So how could one religion be objectively "truer" than another unless you do actually believe in it already?

Originally posted by stark
Those two words “had formed” indicates that before this point of the story the animals where already in existence. Is this contrary to Genesis one? NO.

The question I have is this; after my explanation do you think this is a discrepancy?


Yes, of course it's a discrepancy that the writers of the NIV of the Bible recognized and "corrected" by adding the word "had"
to the verse. Obviously you can change the meaning of any verse you like by adding or deleting even simple words.

KJV

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

NIV

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Now if you don't think that the addition of the word "had" doesn't change the meaning from something that happened in the present tense to something that happened in the past tense, I'm not sure what to say...

Just out of curiosity Stark, if it's NOT a discrepancy, why did the writers of the NIV feel the need to change this verse?

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
I think Pluralism as a belief is as "valid" as any actual, organized religion. This is objectively speaking. However, many followers of organized religion, because of their belief, must limit their objectiveness some very little some quite a lot, and are not being ignorant if insisting their religion is the "true" or "better" religion and that Pluralism is "bullcrap". All religions are based on faith. So how could one religion be objectively "truer" than another unless you do actually believe in it already?

Excellent point Dio.

I think pluralism is also valid simply because it makes the most sense from the perspective of knowledge, and its limitations.

If there is a god, this "creature" must be so far above us in terms of complexity that it would severely limit our ability to comprehend it's true nature. In other words, there is no reason to suspect that the Christian version of "God" is any more accurate than the Hindu description of the "Gods". It's as if an amoeba were to attempt to describe a human being...how accurate would that description be?

Ah, you dont get the point about this logical stuff do you??? It is fine and dandy for you to debate everything within your head and determine things on your own, but God's will is more than ours, and I admit things happen that we do not, and probably should not understand....its all part of faith. God is still a loving god, we just got to put our faith in him to get through it.
Right... Maybe you don't get it. This is a forum, a place to debate. The argument you are using is soley based off of god's ethos(Hehe, AP english is fun. It means him as a person, made valid by him as a being). Now then, within debate(not speech) that argument never ever flies. It has no standing if someone does not care about that person. And in debate, somebody isn't going to fall to your side to give you a point. Logic is important in debate, it can never be disregarded. This is a forum, we debate here, we don't post propaganda. It is entirely your fault if you can't think of a rebuttal, don't just give us propaganda and unfounded arguments. What was that Christian value? God helps those who help themselves? Or does that not apply because we're also told to give into god and let him do things for us? Would you look at that, another contradiction! Give me logic, not stupidity. If that sounds like it's condescending and mean, it is. Your fault for coming onto a forum and not expecting to be laughed at when you post propaganda, stupidity, illogical and unfounded arguments, and complain when we tell you to give us something of value.

Stark, on the Genesis debate. Why was it printed twice if it means exactly the same thing? And why was Yawheh(LORD God) used instead of Elohim(God) now?

Blibblob I'm looking forward to answering yours. I've got to know...is your question about God killing people your favorite discrepancy? You remember I asked you to show us your favorite one? I mean we can talk about all six million or what ever the list is, but it's simpler to talk about one at a time.
Yes, it is my favorite discrepancy. It is not a direct contradiction in terms of verses, but it is a direct contradiction in god's alleged character. Why must an all knowing, all powerful, all loving, merciful god kill? If he is all knowing he should know how to persuade the people to come to his side, if he is all powerful he can create proof for them, if he is all loving then he wishes not to kill and should follow other methods. He is also merciful, and if the reasons why they were killed was because they were bad, then why didn't he give them a real chance, instead of just having a few prophets tell them to, without reason. In Egypt he killed the first born, some were older, some were tiny children. Did they not have a chance to convert when they were older? Why did he send them to eternal pain in hell(non believers) for something a king did? I thought god was merciful and loving.


As for pluarlism, wasn't there a Catholic Bishop or something who advocated it? I don't know what happened to him, but I don't think there was actually that much argument against him.

Vilepagan, I suspected that the NIV might be a problem for you, which is fine, some Christians don’t care for the NIV. Okay, let’s move onto this “had” problem. First to answer your first question:
“…if it's NOT a discrepancy, why did the writers of the NIV feel the need to change this verse?”

You got me, even without the word “had” it’s not a discrepancy. Maybe the word is added to help clarify the passage for the casual reader. Or maybe not.

Moving on I’m going to quote Genesis 2:19 translated right from the Hebrew as it appears in the Hendrickson Interlinear Bible. It’s actually read from right to left, but I’ll write it as we would normally read it:
Okay Genesis 2:19 “And formed Jehovah God from the ground every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens, and brought to the man to see what he would call it; and all which might call it the man soul living, that its name.”

Now in the side column where you can read it in normal English it reads:
Genesis 2:19 “And Jehovah God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the heavens out of the ground. And he brought them to the man, to see what he would call it. And all which the man might call it, each living soul, that was its name.”

Now to make everyone happy here’s the KJV:
Genesis 2:19 “And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof”

Let’s talk about the first part of the verse, it says “And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird fowl of the air;…” Well so far that corresponds to Genesis chapter 1, but the question is when did He form them, before he created man or after? Genesis 1 lists man being formed after; Genesis 2 doesn’t say, so there is no contradiction.
Another question one could ask is how much time passed between when God formed the beasts and fowls and when God presented them to Adam. I myself don’t know. I only know that God created the animals on the 5th day and man on the 6th. How many days passed before God started bringing the animals to man…I don’t know the text doesn’t say.
I know you want a contradiction to be there, but you’ll have to look else where for your it.
Now, if Genesis 2 had said “And, at that moment, out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field…”
Or if Genesis 2 had said “And out of the ground the LORD God formed man first, and then formed every beast of the field…” Then you’d have a good point and Christianity would have a problem. But of course the text doesn’t say it this way.

Now I ask again, is there a contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2?
If so explain the contradiction.
No fair merely saying “yes it’s still a contradiction.” You need to demonstrate the problem.

Let’s see if I can answer a few posts. Lionel you’re first. Jere had said the Bible is God’s Word you answered:
“How do you know? And if your answer is "because they bible says so" then you get 40 lashes for circular logic.”

Lionel you are right, when Christians say that “the Bible is God’s Word simply because the Bible says it’s God’s Word” they are not using reason. Just because someone or some book makes a truth statement it doesn’t make it so. They may be right, but their proclamation doesn’t make it reality. Just as when someone says that the Bible is not the Word of God, because they don’t believe in it doesn’t make their statement true.
I find very few Christians saying the Bible is the Word of God merely, because it says it’s the Word of God. Though I have had an atheist tell me, after I asked him how he knew God didn’t exist, he said because he didn’t believe in Him. Not every atheist thinks like this, but many do step outside logic to deny God.

Blibblob your post is next and let me start by asking; where did you get your information for your post on the bottom of page 2. I’ve just got to see what else they offer for biblical “knowledge.”

Okay first you said:
“Vile, I can explain almost all of the Genesis inconsistancies really quickly. I'll piss off every Christian in the process.”

Funny, I don’t feel upset, amused yes, upset…let me see…nope, I’m fine with your answer.

Next you said:
“"Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..."
As you can see, it's plural, more than one god.”

You’d have a pretty good biblical scandal if the Trinity wasn’t part of Christian doctrine. Matter of fact there would be many biblical contradictions without the concept of the Trinity. The Trinity describes one God who has revealed Himself in three persons, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, unity in diversity if you will. So when you see God saying “Let us” or “in our” He’s speaking as the Trinity. Simply put, one God, three persons.

Next you said:
“"One worthy of praise", a god. Elohim is the plural version, and roughly translated could easily mean Pantheon, the Greek group of gods. Now then, before finishing explaining this I will call upon more verses”

Nowhere in the Bible is there a sense of a Pantheon of Greek gods. In a few parts of the Bible God ridicules the fact that men make up their own god and then worships it. The Bible does say:
Isaiah 44:8 “Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
And
Isaiah 43:10-11 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.”

Next you wrote:
“"Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"
Which means that the Earth and the Heavens were premade before "LORD God" touched it.”

Okay, let me get this straight, after reading Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” and then reading a detailed account of the event of creation with the stars being formed and the earth being formed, you come to the conclusion that Genesis 2:4 actually means “the Earth and the Heavens were premade before "LORD God" touched it.”
Wait, I must be jumping to conclusions, you must mean something other then what I got from your explanation. Explain what you really meant and then I’ll comment on it, after all it would be unfair for me to comment on something you didn’t mean.

So on to your next point, you write:
“What is with the new usage of "LORD God" instead of just "God", even the translated version? Why, it's a different name used, Yahueh. Why the sudden change of name? From one that is plural title or description, to a personalish name? It's a different god. A group of gods made the Universe, and populated earth with animals and humans. And this one god, Yahueh, created a paradise on this Earth for the man he created."

So, you’re saying that because there is a different name used for God it can only mean a different God is referred to. If that’s the case then all of the Bible has problems, it’s filled with different names for God, each one describing an aspect of God. You have Elohim the mighty one, and in Genesis 2:4 you have Yahweh self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, the Jewish national name of God, other names are Adonai (Lord-Master), El Shaddai (God Almighty- The all sufficient one), El Elyon (Most High- possessor of heaven and earth), El Olam (Everlasting God- God over eternal things), Yahweh Jireh (The LORD will provide), Yahweh Rapha (The LORD who heals), Yahwah Nissi (The Lord is my banner the Lord is my victory), and not to forget He’s also called Jesus. There are many more names if you want I’ll continue on. These are different names describing some of the aspects of God, but still the One and Only God.

Finally you said:
“That also explains where Cain got his wife. Where all of those wives came from, as Adam had basically all boys.”

Really? “Adam had basically all boys.” Now where did you get the scripture that tells us this?

Well that’s it for me for tonight. I’ll see you when I can hit the next post.

Okay I’m not quite gone yet, Blibblob I do have a question for you, it’s a simple question:
Do you believe that a late term abortion is morally wrong or morally right?

Blibblob I’m now on the post with the question that you said was your “biggest question.” So let’s jump right into it. First you said:
“It's funny how you pick one minor "contradiction" out of a list of 300 contradictions.”

We have to start somewhere, why not a minor one.

Next you said:
“My biggest question is how did the jealous, cruel, arrogant, hateful, wicked god of the Old Testament go?”

You wrote “how” did the jealous… I can imagine you meant “where,” so I’ll just answer it as if you had written where, if you did mean “how” let me know.

Okay, you’ve made some pretty harsh accusations against God, and I’d like to answer them one by one, after that I’ll tell you where He went. The first accusation is that God is jealous, oh and by the way, the Bible agrees with you on this one. There are a number of passages in the Old Testament where God Himself is claiming to be jealous. In Exodus 20:5 God says “I am a jealous God.” In Exodus 34:14 God says “Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” There are actually a few more, but I think you get the point. So the question isn’t “is God a Jealous God” it’s what kind of “jealous” is God? You have the bad jealous that covets what does not belong to you. A Jealousy where you see a friend, neighbor, or anyone with something you want and it just eats you up inside that they have it and you don’t. Not a good jealousy it wastes your time, eats away at the social fabric, and isn’t very good for your health (mental or physical). This isn’t the jealousy God would have because He can have whatever He wants. Now there is the good or godly jealousy, Paul speaks of it in 2Corinthians 11:2. This is a protective jealousy, protecting what does belong to. When God speaks of being a jealous God, it’s always in context of Israel leaving Him for other gods or worthless idols. The nation of Israel was set up by God to represent Him to all the other nations, to carry His Word, and to carry the seed of the future Messiah. God warned them over and over that they are His people, the sheep of His pasture, and that for them to turn to a god that would only bring them harm, (the gods of the nearby nations) would not be allowed.
When we see something we can’t have and turn jealous it’s wrong, when God is jealous for His people that He protected, provided for, and loved it’s a godly jealousy.

I’m going to post this and start on the next accusation which is “cruel.”

Blibblob, you’ve leveled a cruelty charge against God. That is quite a charge, by making it you’re implying an incredible amount of knowledge. In the Bible we see God protecting His people from the wicked thinking and practices of the nearby nations. You find God warning His people to stay true to Him or He will punish them, inevitably the Israelites start worshiping other Gods and God does as He says and punish them. He claims to love, to protect, and to provide for those who follow Him, yet you imply,with this special knowledge of yours, that Gods motives are indeed empty, that He does what he does for laughs or just the sheer thrill of it.
I guess I’ve got to ask; in all those times you’ve read the Bible, what do you find is the cruelest thing God has done?
I’ll just wait for your answer on that and move on to “arrogant.”

Blibblob, have you ever looked in a dictionary at the word “arrogant”? I looked it up in Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, it says:
“1. Full of or due to unwarranted pride and self-importance; giving oneself an undue degree of importance; haughty; conceited: applied to persons; as, an arrogant churchman.”

God is giving himself an undue degree of importance?
This is the being who called into existence the universe and all that is in it. He ordered the universe to support life on earth. He programmed our DNA. He provides us with all that we need to live. He also provides us eternal salvation through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Without him all existence would vanish.
This is an undue degree of importance?
Who, would you say, is the most important being in the universe?

Let’s see what’s next…oh, “hateful” this could be a tough one. Let me just say that God is so hateful that He took on the nature of a person (Jesus), came to earth, lived on earth, and went through everything we go through. He allowed the flesh to be peeled from His body in a Roman flogging, He suffered on the cross, and experienced something He’d never experienced throughout all eternity; total separation from God the Father. The righteous God became sin. He did all this so that every person on earth can have a close relationship with the Father, if they want. He did this to pay the penalty for the sins we committed, and purchase a place for us in heaven. He did this so that anyone, even the person who hates God, can turn from their sinful ways, turn to Him, and find peace, joy, love, contentment, fulfillment, and salvation. He promises a new life, a life that starts when we accept Jesus as Lord of our life. Give it a shot Blibblob you may find a joy you didn’t know you could have.

No, God is not hateful.

Finally you claim that God is “wicked.”
God can’t be wicked. Wickedness is anything outside of Gods will. God is the ultimate measure for good, He can’t be wicked.

So to answer your question which was:
“My biggest question is how did the jealous, cruel, arrogant, hateful, wicked god of the Old Testament go?”

The god you speak of didn’t go anywhere, he never was, he only exists in the minds of those who need a reason to hate or disbelieve in the real God.

Well...

I'll begin with the Genesis contradiction. That is not the only time multiple gods are mentioned, or such. But first I shall mention the trinity you speak of. Yes, it does say the lord god is "one lord"(Deuteronomy 6:4), however, that same Hebrew word is used in another location, when speaking about man and woman(Genesis 2:24). Does this mean man and woman are mutated into one being? No. Such does it mean that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Lord god are one being, just that they are your one lord. Allegiance maybe, just like equal marriage. This does not deny the existance of other gods, as mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis, and multiple other places. Such as "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."(Exodus 34:14) and "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods."(Psalm 82:1). Also, when Jesus claimed to be one with god, then he mentioned Psalm 82:6 to explain himself. "Ye are gods".

All of your names for Lord god, are singular. Elohim is plural, the only plural one. Elohim means "gods" and the rest of those are an aspect of Lord god.

Why did Adam have only boys? Not a single female is mentioned. Every time where we are told that Adam and Eve have a child, it is male.
Here's the list:
"And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD."(Genesis 4:1)
"And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground."(Genesis 4:2)
"And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew."(Genesis 4:25)
There, the mentionings of Adam's first children. But wait! When do the woman come in? But two chapters later: "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,"(Genesis 6:1)

Now then, where did Cain's wife come from? Cain left and went to the land of "Nod", and then the very next line he had sex with his wife and had a son. Now where the hell did that wife come from?


Do you believe that a late term abortion is morally wrong or morally right?
Who on this planet thinks late term abortion is okay? I personally don't think any abortion, except for day after, is okay.


God is jealous, he said it himself, and in the context of the existance of other gods. Obviously god is afraid that his "chosen people" will leave him for his fellow gods. I thought god was all powerful? I thought there was only one, what does he have to be jealous about? He is so jealous that those other religions are to be hated, and killed. Then again, maybe the jealous god went nowhere, for he exists in the New Testament also.


How can god not be cruel? He flooded the entire planet, killed everything, humans and animals alike. The survivors were one family, and two of each species. What did they do? Was every single human such a wicked, evil, disgusting creature that they deserved to be utterly destroyed? What did the animals do? Where they such horrid evil beings that they deserved to be destroyed? Every man sentenced to hell for all eternity is an example of cruelity by god. "Yes, let me punish this man who for 60 years was maybe not so perfect, we shall have him tortured for all eternity!" Ghandi is sitting in hell for not believing in your god and Jesus. How is that nice, how is that good, how is that not cruel! How is that not wicked! God is the ultimate measure for good? Then where is evil? How do we know what is evil? Because god created it. Because god acted upon it. Because god is it. God is good to some, god is evil to others. You see it from your high horse, he's supposidly protecting you because you believe in him. Other religions have their gods, which have been in existance longer sometimes, but no, they are wrong and you are right. You are protected by this ultimate god of good, and we are all evil. You believe in something unprovable, something horrid. But us, we are too smart to.

Blibblob, I’m going to skip the other posts and go right to your recent post. Now let me start where you discuss the Trinity, Elohim, and marriage.
You are convinced that the Bible doesn’t deny the existance of other gods, yet I showed you a verse in Isaiah 44:8 “Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." You may have missed that one.
You are right on about Elohim, but you forgot to mention the whole definition, this is from Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary: “el-o-heem; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used of the supreme God;” Elohim is a great name for God seeing as God is three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who have always existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God, three persons. You mention psalms 82:1 which says “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the "gods" and I gave you Isaiah 44:8 which says“…Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." These two verses are either contradictory or psalms means something other then there are other true Gods. You yourself gave the answer when you brought up Psalms 82:6-7 which says “"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." See where God says “You will fall like every other ruler.”? God isn’t speaking to real Gods, he’s speaking to the “rulers” of men, Judges, Kings, people who have been given power over everyone else. These rulers have god like power, they can change lives for the worse or for the better, they have the authority to end life or to save life. God warns these people in Psalms 82:7 that they will die just like everyone else. Yes there are other gods, but they are mere made up beings. Jeremiah 10:1-5 would be a good one to read to see what God thinks of these other gods.
In my next post I’ll answer your “where did Cain get his wife” question.

Okay Blibblob You asked: “Why did Adam have only boys?” And you asked: “Now then, where did Cain's wife come from?” Followed up with a rather amusing “Now where the hell did that wife come from?”

I’ll answer your questions, but before I do I’d like to ask you a few questions. I’ll number them:
1. How long did Adam and Eve live in the Garden of Eden? I don’t know was it a hundred years? The Bible doesn’t say.
2. How many children did Adam and Eve have before being kicked out of the Garden? I myself don’t know, God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, did they before they were kicked out of the Garden? The Bible doesn’t say, it does however say in Genesis 3:16 that because of the fall Eve will have a great increase in pain during childbearing. Does that imply Eve had given birth to children without pain before the fall? I don’t know it doesn’t imply that she didn’t. Could she have had one, or two, we don’t know how long Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden, maybe they had ten or more children, or none at all, the Bible has remained silent about it.
3. Did Adam and Eve have any children before Cain? I don’t know the Bible mentions in Genesis chapter four that “Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain.” It doesn’t say that this was the first time he did or that this was her first pregnancy.
4. How old was Eve when she first started having babies, how old was she when Cain was born? I don’t know the Bible doesn’t say.
5. How many Children did Adam and Eve have between Cain and Abel? I don’t know the Bible merely states that “later she gave birth to his brother Abel.” Was there one child, or ten? Ya, got me.
6. If Adam and Eve did have children before Cain, how many children did they have, and did those children have children? I don’t know, the Bible doesn’t say.
7. Come to think of it how Old was Adam and Eve when they died? The Bible says Adam was 930 years old, Eve’s age isn’t mentioned.
8. What if the last three children Adam and Eve had were Cain, Abel, and Seth and then at age 875 retired to Florida, how many children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren, and so on, were there kicking around?

Now to answer your question: Cain’s wife was either a sister, a niece, the daughter of the niece or maybe the granddaughter of the niece, or maybe even the great great granddaughter...never mind you get the point.

I'll answer the other part of your post later.

Okay, Blibblob on to the rest of your post you said:
“Obviously god is afraid that his "chosen people" will leave him for his fellow gods.”

Afraid? Hmm, it’s not that obvious to me. Could you show me a verse that highlights God’s “fear.”

Next you said:
“I thought god was all powerful? I thought there was only one, what does he have to be jealous about?”

The Bible speaks of many gods, but it also mentions that these gods are made by man. If God’s people turn from Him and worship other false gods He becomes jealous. Of course you read what I wrote about God’s jealousy.

Next you wrote:
“How can god not be cruel? He flooded the entire planet, killed everything, humans and animals alike.”

Again, here you are implying that you know that God flooded the earth just for the joy of watching pain and anguish. You are making a moral judgement with information you don’t really have.

Next you said:
“ Every man sentenced to hell for all eternity is an example of cruelity by god. "Yes, let me punish this man who for 60 years was maybe not so perfect, we shall have him tortured for all eternity!" Ghandi is sitting in hell for not believing in your god and Jesus.”

God doesn’t say “Yes, let me punish this man who for 60 years was “maybe not so perfect…” God says “this man who has lived for 60 years is not perfect, matter of fact no one is perfect, so I will send my One and only Son to earth to live a perfect life, He will be tortured and will take on Himself all the sins of every person who will ever live. He (Jesus) will pay for everyone’s sin, therefore satisfying My (God) requirement for sin (death) and showing all who want to love me and be with me the way to salvation.”

Blibblob, the only people who go to hell are those who don’t want Jesus to pay for their sins, those are the people who reject Jesus Christ. Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” I’m no judge, and I don’t know where he is now, but I know that the Ghandi you speak of had a chance to receive Jesus, if he died without making Jesus Lord of his life, he will be paying for his own sins. If Billy Graham dies without making Jesus Lord of his life it’s the same thing.

Next you said:
“How do we know what is evil?”

What ever is against God’s will is evil? You say God created evil, well that isn’t exactly correct. Evil occurs this way; if God declares something right its opposite is evil. Evil came about when God created beings that can choose to disobey Him. God didn’t create evil, he created the capacity to do evil.

Next you said:
“You see it from your high horse…”

My high horse? What do you mean by “high horse”? If you mean by “high horse” that I sit up high (metaphorically speaking) looking down on those inferior to me, then you must not have a very good grasp of Christianity. Here’s my mind set; I’m a sinner, I’m not good enough, on my own, to stand before God. Left to my own will, I’ll make a disaster of my life. Every day I ask that God’s will is done in my life, no matter where that takes me. Every day I ask God to provide for me and my family, and to protect me and my family. It may sound weak to you, but in truth; I’ve never felt better, I’ve never felt as fulfilled, and I’ve never felt as happy. Am I better then anyone else because I’m “saved”? God doesn’t see it that way and neither do I.

Next you said:
“Other religions have their gods, which have been in existance longer sometimes,…”

Yes, other religions have their gods, but have they been in existence longer? No. God created everything that exists. Before Buddha God already was. Before Hinduism God already was.

Next you said:
“…they are wrong and you are right.”

No, actually they are wrong God is right, I just happen to believe God.

Next you said:
“You are protected by this ultimate god of good, and we are all evil.”

Yes, God protects me, what ever form that protection takes, and yes “we are all evil,” and that includes me. The Bible says “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

Finally you said:
“You believe in something unprovable, something horrid. But us, we are too smart to.”

Wow, you’re to smart to be a Christian? That suggests you are smarter then anyone who has ever been a Christian. Of course I can’t make that judgment, I’ve never met you. I can guess you are much smarter then I am, you should have seen my ASVAB scores, pretty darn weak.
Now there is Stephen C. Meyer, PHD he has degrees in physics and geology, and master’s in history and philosophy of science at Cambridge University in England. He also got his doctorate from Cambridge. You probably never heard of him but, he’s a Christian, a strong Bible believing Christian, and to think you’re also smarter then him. Well, that’s a nice high horse your on but, hey, if you’ve got it…you’ve got it.

Originally posted by stark
Okay, Blibblob on to the rest of your post you said:
“Obviously god is afraid that his "chosen people" will leave him for his fellow gods.”

Afraid? Hmm, it’s not that obvious to me. Could you show me a verse that highlights God’s “fear.”

Next you said:
“I thought god was all powerful? I thought there was only one, what does he have to be jealous about?”

The Bible speaks of many gods, but it also mentions that these gods are made by man. If God’s people turn from Him and worship other false gods He becomes jealous. Of course you read what I wrote about God’s jealousy.

Next you wrote:
“How can god not be cruel? He flooded the entire planet, killed everything, humans and animals alike.”







Again, here you are implying that you know that God flooded the earth just for the joy of watching pain and anguish. You are making a moral judgement with information you don’t really have.

Next you said:
“ Every man sentenced to hell for all eternity is an example of cruelity by god. "Yes, let me punish this man who for 60 years was maybe not so perfect, we shall have him tortured for all eternity!" Ghandi is sitting in hell for not believing in your god and Jesus.”

God doesn’t say “Yes, let me punish this man who for 60 years was “maybe not so perfect…” God says “this man who has lived for 60 years is not perfect, matter of fact no one is perfect, so I will send my One and only Son to earth to live a perfect life, He will be tortured and will take on Himself all the sins of every person who will ever live. He (Jesus) will pay for everyone’s sin, therefore satisfying My (God) requirement for sin (death) and showing all who want to love me and be with me the way to salvation.”

Blibblob, the only people who go to hell are those who don’t want Jesus to pay for their sins, those are the people who reject Jesus Christ. Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me.” I’m no judge, and I don’t know where he is now, but I know that the Ghandi you speak of had a chance to receive Jesus, if he died without making Jesus Lord of his life, he will be paying for his own sins. If Billy Graham dies without making Jesus Lord of his life it’s the same thing.

Next you said:
“How do we know what is evil?”

What ever is against God’s will is evil? You say God created evil, well that isn’t exactly correct. Evil occurs this way; if God declares something right its opposite is evil. Evil came about when God created beings that can choose to disobey Him. God didn’t create evil, he created the capacity to do evil.

Next you said:
“You see it from your high horse…”

My high horse? What do you mean by “high horse”? If you mean by “high horse” that I sit up high (metaphorically speaking) looking down on those inferior to me, then you must not have a very good grasp of Christianity. Here’s my mind set; I’m a sinner, I’m not good enough, on my own, to stand before God. Left to my own will, I’ll make a disaster of my life. Every day I ask that God’s will is done in my life, no matter where that takes me. Every day I ask God to provide for me and my family, and to protect me and my family. It may sound weak to you, but in truth; I’ve never felt better, I’ve never felt as fulfilled, and I’ve never felt as happy. Am I better then anyone else because I’m “saved”? God doesn’t see it that way and neither do I.

Next you said:
“Other religions have their gods, which have been in existance longer sometimes,…”

Yes, other religions have their gods, but have they been in existence longer? No. God created everything that exists. Before Buddha God already was. Before Hinduism God already was.

Next you said:
“…they are wrong and you are right.”

No, actually they are wrong God is right, I just happen to believe God.

Next you said:
“You are protected by this ultimate god of good, and we are all evil.”

Yes, God protects me, what ever form that protection takes, and yes “we are all evil,” and that includes me. The Bible says “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

Finally you said:
“You believe in something unprovable, something horrid. But us, we are too smart to.”

Wow, you’re to smart to be a Christian? That suggests you are smarter then anyone who has ever been a Christian. Of course I can’t make that judgment, I’ve never met you. I can guess you are much smarter then I am, you should have seen my ASVAB scores, pretty darn weak.
Now there is Stephen C. Meyer, PHD he has degrees in physics and geology, and master’s in history and philosophy of science at Cambridge University in England. He also got his doctorate from Cambridge. You probably never heard of him but, he’s a Christian, a strong Bible believing Christian, and to think you’re also smarter then him. Well, that’s a nice high horse your on but, hey, if you’ve got it…you’ve got it.


I agree with every point you made.:)