Several times I have seen the claim that the Bible that we read today is the exact same Bible that was written 2000 years ago, and that it is the "unchanging" word of God, despite having been translated and re-translated into multiple languages.

Most recently this sentiment was expressed by a new member to this board thusly:

Copies of the Old Testament have been found dating back hundreds and even thousands of years and compared to current copies...there was not even a letter's difference. Why? Because God preserves his word. In J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings preface, he talks about how many mistakes were made every time a new version was introduced, however the Bible in the thousands of years it has existed has NEVER CHANGED. Why? Because, like I said, God preserves his word.[/B]

Since this was mentioned in a thread on a different subject, I started this thread in the hope that the discussion would continue here.

Serophis, I posted two versions of the 23rd Psalm from two different editions of the Bible and showed that there are differences in the various translations.

You responded:

No, these are two different translations of the original scripture. It is the exact same as if you went to someone who spoke Hebrew and asked him to explain to you what the words meant. He would not say it word-for-word since in hebrew certain grammatical orders are mixed up ("my savior" in English would translate to words meaning "savior of me" in Hebrew), but he would put it in a form that you can understand using the same words and using the same meaning.

Ok...so the meaning hasn't changed but the words may have...

Let's look at one line from each of the passages I quoted:{Note: I subsituted the King James Version for the Amplified Bible here because I wanted to avoid the brackets, which seemed to distress you}

NIV:

6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

KJV:

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Note how one version uses the word "love" and the other uses the word "mercy".

Two different words, with two different meanings.

love n.

1. A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
2. A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.
3.
1. Sexual passion.
2. Sexual intercourse.
3. A love affair.
4. An intense emotional attachment, as for a pet or treasured object.
5. A person who is the object of deep or intense affection or attraction; beloved. Often used as a term of endearment.
6. An expression of one's affection: Send him my love.
7.
1. A strong predilection or enthusiasm: a love of language.
2. The object of such an enthusiasm: The outdoors is her greatest love.
8. Love Mythology. Eros or Cupid.
9. often Love Christianity. Charity.
10. Sports. A zero score in tennis.

mer·cy n. pl. mer·cies

1. Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
2. A disposition to be kind and forgiving: a heart full of mercy.
3. Something for which to be thankful; a blessing: It was a mercy that no one was hurt.
4. Alleviation of distress; relief: Taking in the refugees was an act of mercy.

Which word did God use?

Why do some versions of the Bible use one word and some the other if the Bible never changes?

Now, to avoid having you assume I'm stupid, I think I know the answer to these questions...I'm just curious to see what you think the answer is.

The Bible has been changed sense it's begaining. There have also been things taken out, added, lost, burned, etc.. from the original meanings. It would really be hard to know exactly what was in the original version, seeing none of us where around then.

Isn't it true that in the original Christianity,, Jesus was viewed as a man and not a deity? Wasn't it Constantine the great who changed and rewrote for political reasons? To please both the old sun wrshippers and the new christians?

Also if the word is so direct and unchanging then why are there so many ways to interpret the bible, you can make it mean almost anything you want it too. "god said take up serpents, so lets take up serpents every Sunday and sing to them" There are a gazillion different denominations that use the bible, all use it in different ways.

When I was a kid, I make believed that a stick was a gun, a tennis racquet, Pinochio's nose...but in reality is was still just a stick.

It is human nature to twist something into the shape we want it. As human beings we are used to picking our political leaders, having our shoes mold to fit our feet, and using God's word as a way to back up practices and beliefs.

With that said, I now say this. The bible is and will continue to be God's unfaliable word. The bible teaches that God shows us love in the form of his mercy. When the world turned wicked, God spared Noah and his family, so that we could go on living in the world, with a fresh start. He sent his son to die on the cross, so that through him we might be saved.

The bible has not changed. Words may have, to make more sense to an ever canging people, but God's word has not. Throughout the Bible, God shows how great he is. The very first verse of the bible "In the beginning, God created the heavan and the Earth." That one verse, if you cannot believe it, you cannot belive the rest of the bible.

God gave us the bible, so that would have something to guide us. Something that would show us his greatness, and his love. And here we are today fighting over why some words have been changed. The bible has read by over a billion people, and how many people do we know that has respect for anything....I can make a short book, if I listed the people on here that doesnt have respect for God.

So I know, in no time after writing this, the usual loud mouths will come and cry..."oh boooo hooo, im my on my person. I'm in touch with myself...i dont need a god or a religion showing me how to live."

Its attitude like that that devide homes on Earth. When a husband doesnt respect his wife, when a child is a little stuck up brat, it devides our home on Earth, and it does the same thing with God.

Imagine for a second, that you let you lttle boy or girl (if you have kids) go and be beaten, whipped, have the skin tore of its body. Then on top of that, be nailed to a cross, so that everyone else on Earth could live eternally happy. Imagine it! Imagine watching your little baby crying out to you in agony as blood drips down his dying body.

And then imagine, people fighting over this stuff. Saying that he didnt exist. Saying that he doesnt matter. That they are THERE OWN HUMAN

It would drive that nail even deeper into its hands wouldnt it?


Listen people, Jesus died for you. He is giving you a free gift. You dont have to do ANYTHING but admit that he is your savior, and your set. If someone was going to give you a one day trip to Hawaii free just to say that they were cool, I know you would do it. And here God is offering you an ETERNITY in Heaven and youre too superfical and hardheaded to accept it.

If what I wrote, makes just one person think....I would be forever grateful.

Is the
King James Version of 1611
the only True Bible.

Watching the History Channel this week I saw where many of the experts interpreting the Dead Sea Schrolls said that they were Jewish and the basis of the Christian Bible.
They also stressed and showed how the misinterpretations of a single original letter completely changed the meaning of the sentence.
Probably many mistakes were made. Some by accident and some by men wanting to stress a particular personal point or belief.

Ugh...

It's not our fault people in the past fucked up... often big time. And it's not your fault for thinking that it's the truth. Remember, history is written by the victors. And "History is the lie commonly agreed upon." - Voltaire

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Ugh...

jere, I'm just curious why you think you have all the answers...men have been seeking the knowledge of where we came from and why, for thousands of years, and you, a 16 year-old, believe you know all the answers...why? Where did you gain this ultimate secret? You post a few messages about a bleeding dying baby suffering unspeakable horrors and you expect anyone to take you seriously?

If you want to discuss your faith that's fine. But you will not make any friends or convince anyone of the correctness of your position, by preaching nonsense like that to them.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
When I was a kid, I make believed that a stick was a gun, a tennis racquet, Pinochio's nose...but in reality is was still just a stick.

And the Bible is just a book.

With that said, I now say this. The bible is and will continue to be God's unfaliable word.

Can you back up that claim, or do we just have to take your word for it?

The bible has not changed. Words may have, to make more sense to an ever canging people, but God's word has not.

You keep saying that, but offer no evidence to support that claim. I have offered evidence that it has in fact changed. Care to dispute that evidence?

And here we are today fighting over why some words have been changed.

Are you saying the Bible has changed?

So I know, in no time after writing this, the usual loud mouths will come and cry..."oh boooo hooo, im my on my person. I'm in touch with myself...i dont need a god or a religion showing me how to live."

You have a very unpleasant way of trying to communicate with people...did you learn that in church?

Imagine for a second, that you let you lttle boy or girl (if you have kids) go and be beaten, whipped, have the skin tore of its body. Then on top of that, be nailed to a cross, so that everyone else on Earth could live eternally happy. Imagine it! Imagine watching your little baby crying out to you in agony as blood drips down his dying body.

What an unpleasant story. If this is what you have "faith" in, I want no part of it.

And then imagine, people fighting over this stuff. Saying that he didnt exist. Saying that he doesnt matter. That they are THERE OWN HUMAN

What doesn't matter is your stories...

Listen people, Jesus died for you. He is giving you a free gift. You dont have to do ANYTHING but admit that he is your savior, and your set. If someone was going to give you a one day trip to Hawaii free just to say that they were cool, I know you would do it.

Gee...sounds almost too good to be true...

And here God is offering you an ETERNITY in Heaven and youre too superfical and hardheaded to accept it.

Do you think Jesus won many converts by referring to people as "superficial and hardheaded"?

If what I wrote, makes just one person think....I would be forever grateful.

That depends on what you want them to think...:rolleyes:

You didnt have to rip his post like that Vile. you know what he meant by his illustration...

Originally posted by Jwjames111
You didnt have to rip his post like that Vile. you know what he meant by his illustration...

You're right james I didn't...

However, I believe I've heard enough comments like:

the usual loud mouths will come and cry..."oh boooo hooo,

so why do you as a practicer of "looking at ones conscience for hummanity" load of crap

Seriously, how stupid!

Nah, thats fine...

Vile is such a man, he tries to use my age against me, my love of God against me...for what?

Who knows?

He's trying to gain....thats something I really have no answer to...but like everything else Im sure he will.

Youre evidence of things wronged...are some changed words, when God is so much more than a book. ...but yet that changes everything to you.

So lets go ahead with the usual pagan, cut up my post here and put your little commentary in.




Row Row Row Your Boat
Gently Down The Stream



Theres something out of left field for you to comment on. There is one thing. You are trying to scold me for calling athiests hardheaded and such...but I don't care.

The bible says For only fools say there is no God...so there, I have the word of God backing me up...you have what, yourself some scientific logistics, and a handful of other pagans on your side.

Ill take my backup anyday.





And Pagan, I do not appreciate you trying to use my age against me....wow...youre an original one with that fight.

Uh oh...I gave you an opportunity to talk about how you dont appreciate me calling you hardheaded, so I just did it for you.

I do appologize for however I seemed to make you believe "I think I know all the answers," I do know that the bible is the supreme answer given to us by God, and before you start with your show me proof stuff....how about historical documents of the time, how about the Gospels somehow matching one another perfectly, how about Roman Court Texts, describing Jesus's betrayl and crucifixion.


So now what do you want to fuss about....

(chanting"fight fight fight fight!!!") this should be an excellent debate

I’m not a huge religious debater but I will take a stab at this.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Youre evidence of things wronged...are some changed words, when God is so much more than a book. ...but yet that changes everything to you.
In your own interpretation God is more then a book, but you cannot fail to remember that it is God’s word to the world that he somehow exists. And if the Book, that is suppose to prove God is indeed real, has been changed how do we know it’s fully logical or true? Can we believe a book that has been taken and re-written…? Is it that reliable to base your whole way of life on a book that could very well be filled with factual inaccuracies?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
You are trying to scold me for calling athiests hardheaded and such...but I don't care.
Why do you think Atheists are hardheaded? They don’t believe in a Bible that has contradictions, and that has been re-written and could prove to be untimely false.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The bible says For only fools say there is no God...so there, I have the word of God backing me up...
That’s nice, but can you refute the examples Vile gave…? Or are you just going to blindly believe your God? And how do you know God really said that? It could have been re-written.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
you have what, yourself some scientific logistics. Ill take my backup anyday.
Sadly science, is far more reliable then a God that could or could not be real.

Quite frankly, I have no comprehension of why anyone would doubt God because of science and stuff.

It seems so weird to me, how people would even want to take the risk. I guess its pride ( a deadly sin, hmm)



Whoever left that last post, I cannot remember your name at the time of writing this, but thanks for your input...being as though I'm fighting an up hill struggle here...I think I am going to leave you all be. If my task was to try to reason, I have more than did that. I really do hope each of you wisen up. You're life would be so much more meaningful with God. (Please spare me the time of moving my eyes, I done know youre going to say NO IT WONT)

Anyway, like it or not, youre in my prayers, and I'll leave you with a little bow...

First of all I would like to congratulate Jeremiah. If one could make the argument that he is unfit to debate because of his age, then I have the right to praise him for taking on the criticism of this entire board and still responding without hate. He has endured having people call his religion crap, try to say that what he puts his entire trust and faith in is flawed, and yet he still remains to spread the good news of God's love he has in his heart.

Jeremiah, I'm here if you need me, but it looks like you have all the help you need by having God on your side. And remember: Jesus did not always convert his followers in an nice, polite way. A nice, polite person will let their friend go down the path of destruction and not interrupt them along the way. A real friend will stand in their way and try to help them. Jesus did just that when ke kicked the merchants out of the temple and called them a den of vipers. He was disgusted that people would make such a mockery of the faith he had by forcing Jews to buy very expensive animals for sacrifice, saying that only they had sacrificial animals that were not sub-standard.

Keep debating, Jeremiah, and remember you have me to fall back on, and when I fail, because all do once in a while, remember that God has your back as well. And he is perfect, as is his word which has lasted for thousands of years and still tells the same story.

-Kyle Sheeks
"Walk Uprightly"

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

Youre evidence of things wronged...are some changed words, when God is so much more than a book. ...but yet that changes everything to you.

Jere, this thread is titled "The Bible Unchanged?", because your friend made a post last night that I found to be rather remarkable. I thought perhaps she or others might like to debate whether or not the Bible had actually changed or not. This isn't about God or you, or your faith. Whether or not the Bible has changed is not relevant to my belief or disbelief in God, it's simply an interesting subject for discussion.

The problem jere, is that you don't discuss or debate, you preach. While I understand that you are very devout in your beliefs, that position doesn't make for an interesting discussion.

You are trying to scold me for calling athiests hardheaded and such...but I don't care.

You've made it quite apparent that you hold people who don't share your beliefs in contempt.

The bible says For only fools say there is no God...

The Bible also says "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

And Pagan, I do not appreciate you trying to use my age against me....wow...youre an original one with that fight.

jere, I didn't "use your age against you" , I was asking a question...how is it that a 16 year-old boy has the answers that have eluded learned scholars for thousands of years? It was a deliberately sarcastic question directed at someone who's been deliberately sarcastic.

I do appologize for however I seemed to make you believe "I think I know all the answers," I do know that the bible is the supreme answer given to us by God, and before you start with your show me proof stuff....how about historical documents of the time, how about the Gospels somehow matching one another perfectly, how about Roman Court Texts, describing Jesus's betrayl and crucifixion.

How about them? Can you show me a reference to any historical documents of the time that mention Jesus? Can you find a reference on the Internet to the Roman Court documents that describe the crucifixtion of Jesus and provide a link?

I don't think you can, because I don't think those documents exist. If you can prove me wrong I will humbly beg your forgiveness. If you even try, I will thank you for attempting.

:)

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Quite frankly, I have no comprehension of why anyone would doubt God because of science and stuff.
Why wouldn’t you? Science is what creates logic in this world. It cures diseases and makes sense to our issues in the world. If science tells us God is not real, and they have factual information to support it, I will surly trust them over God.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
It seems so weird to me, how people would even want to take the risk. I guess its pride ( a deadly sin, hmm)
Sorry I don’t want to believe in a God that thinks my actions are sin, when I have no control over them. So when God starts to believe in me…I might just start to believe in him.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Anyway, like it or not, youre in my prayers, and I'll leave you with a little bow...
It’s sad you would pray for someone who has no want to be prayed for.

I’m sorry, but you are ignoring logic, and blindly following your faith. Question everything, especially when we give you evidence to back it up. The Bible has been changed, it has contradictions, it is far from perfect, which makes me doubt the whole Christian religion.

"I’m sorry, but you are ignoring logic, and blindly following your faith. Question everything, especially when we give you evidence to back it up. The Bible has been changed, it has contradictions, it is far from perfect, which makes me doubt the whole Christian religion." -Overdose

Overdose, I would like you to know that as Christians we are asked to test our faith, to see that the things are true; not to just let a belief system exist and rule how we look at the world.

I draw my line in the sand...on one side is the side of those who believe in God, and on the other side are those who do not. I test every thing I believe (or at least try to), but I do so from God's side, and if I were to find something that would prove my side wrong I would move.

I haven't moved yet.

Originally posted by Serophis
Overdose, I would like you to know that as Christians we are asked to test our faith, to see that the things are true; not to just let a belief system exist and rule how we look at the world.
I’ve never stated that Christians don’t test their faith. I use to be a Christian myself, until I read the contradictions in the Bible (which has been explained in many other threads), and how this Book that is suppose to be God’s word has been re-written. Which thus makes it an un-reliable interpretation of God’s word and not something to base your entire way of life on.

Originally posted by Serophis
if I were to find something that would prove my side wrong I would move.
I haven't moved yet.
If you paid attention to the first post of this thread, it gives you evidence to show that the Bible is indeed not reliable, since it was re-written many times. If you care to refute it, do so. Test your faith, you say you test all the time.

I have already responded to your "evidence" in the thread that spawned this one. I explained that as people and the way they speak change, new versions of the Bible are introduced that represent how the people of that time communicate.

Basically, what I mean is that with the KJV version, it was very easily understood by the people of 1611 (I think this date is right). However, since we don't use the words "Thee and thou," etc. very often, the Bible was translated to the type of language we more commonly use today.

The fact that there are small differences in current translations simply shows the wonderful diversity of our world and how people communicate. It shows us that in our wonderful country we have many different kinds of people and even if a person does not talk like everyone around him, he can still have access to a more easily-understood translation of God's word.

Also, I would suggest you read some of Daniel 2 and 7, where he predicts the fall of Nebuchadnezzar to Persia, then basically the fall of the next few nations to the ones that overtook them, dating even to today.

Originally posted by Serophis
I have already responded to your "evidence" in the thread that spawned this one. I explained that as people and the way they speak change, new versions of the Bible are introduced that represent how the people of that time communicate.

Which is exactly why it’s unreliable to believe in a Bible that has been translated numerous times. It’s unethical to believe something that has been translated and could very well have many inaccuracies. Depending on the person re-writing God’s word…they could very well have a different opinion and change the whole context of the Bible. And then the more it gets translated or passed down, the more it becomes shifted and changed from what God’s word really was.

Originally posted by Serophis
The fact that there are small differences in current translations simply shows the wonderful diversity of our world and how people communicate.

Again, would you mind taking Vile’s examples and refute them? I’d like to see you refute the attacks that our on God’s Word.

Originally posted by Serophis
Also, I would suggest you read some of Daniel 2 and 7, where he predicts the fall of Nebuchadnezzar to Persia, then basically the fall of the ne
xt few nations to the ones that overtook them, dating even to today.

Again, I don’t find it appealing to read a Book that has attacks on the feelings I have. Calling something I cannot help, sin, is not appealing to me.

Here is a link that is the findings on a research of the Bible's historical relevance...

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/editors-choice/EC2W1002.pdf



And speaking of Prophicies, how can you deny them?

For example,

The detailed fall of the Grecian empire, the fact that upon Alexander's death his kindgom would be devided into four parts,
the fact that Isreal would become a nation in 1948, the fact that the Roman Empire would get back together is unfolding now in the from of the European Union.

All in all there are 2500 prophecies in the bible, about 2000 of which already been fulfilled down to the smallest of detail. The remaining 500 stretch into the future and our accuring today (i.e. the European Union)

Heres a nice statistic sense you all love your science so much...


The possibility of these prophecy's coming true, as they have, the odds are 10 to the 2000th. That's 1 with 2000 zero's after it.

Here's a bit of prophecy for you. The Old Testament warns of the future destruction of the city of Edom. As you can see by the following verses, it shows us that prophecy in the Old Testament has been fulfilled and is still true even today.

Edom was overthrown as a nation.
The nation and city have become a desolation, as Ezekiel 25:13; Ezekiel 35:4,7 and Isaiah 34:11-13 predicted.
It has never been populated again as Jeremiah 49:18 predicted.
It has had bloody history as Ezekiel 25:13 and 35:6,8 predicted.
Edom became populated with wild animals and birds (instead of people) as Isaiah 34:11, 13-15 predicted.

By the way, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has squelched the arguments of many who doubt the validity of the Bible and who actually wrote it. The scrolls were held in a library abandoned in the first century. When they were recently discovered at a settlement at Qumran, they proved to be identical to current manuscripts of the Old Testament text, barring some spelling errors. In 2,000 years of hand-copies and press copies, the original manuscripts still match those in existance today.

I really don't want to get into the homosexual debate, however I may in the future delve into that subject, as I have many times before in discussions with my best friends, two of which are homosexual. However, you still do not seem to understand that every time the Bible is translated, it is translated from the original text, not from a translation. Yet the translations we have now (barring a few produced by the unexperienced who translated it as they wished for their own purposes [see the New World Translation by Fred Franz and four other Jehovah's Witnesses]) all seem to tell the same story, as do each book in each translation. The story has not changed in two thousand years, the words that our translations come from have not changed in two thousand years, and in hundreds of translations the story is still the same.

NIV: 6 Surely goodness and love will follow me, all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

KJV: 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

Which is what Vilepagan cited. There are most likely many other examples in the Bible that show that the words are far different, and the meanings are also different. It’s very probable that many other things could have been changed from the original text of the Bible.

I’m not very skilled on my Bible history, and I don’t think as I look back on it now, should be arguing this. But I find it highly ironic that little words, with different meanings could be changed and thus make the outcome of God’s word distorted…which makes me skeptical no matter how minor it is, if the Bible is completely correct and believable.

Again, if things like this can and have occurred in the Bible, how reliable is it?

Have you ever thought that in four hundred years the old English meaning of mercy is now more similar to our meaning of the word love or charity?

You see, as the meanings of words change, translations must change to reflect them.

Originally posted by Serophis
Have you ever thought that in four hundred years the old English meaning of mercy is now more similar to our meaning of the word love or charity?

Again, it may be minor…I’m not denying it.

Mercy - Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.

Love- A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.

Which are not that similar. But again, no matter what…the minor changes that do occur throughout the Bible, could and very well lead to something more. Is it that reliable? And personally to me, no. To you, it doesn’t make a difference. So it’s down to personal opinion.

I can easily see that a word meaning "compassionate treatment" four hundred years ago now would mean the same as "love" or "charity."

I don't see it as any difference...it's not that it isn't a big deal or is a big deal, it is simply in my mind no difference.

Originally posted by Serophis
I can easily see that a word meaning "compassionate treatment" four hundred years ago now would mean the same as "love" or "charity."

I don't see it as any difference...it's not that it isn't a big deal or is a big deal, it is simply in my mind no difference.

No, that’s not what I’m getting at. When you look at the bigger picture, or in the scheme of things, what else did they change? It could be very much different. I understand this isn’t a huge change, but it leads me to be skeptical of the Bible and it’s accuracy.

It draws doubt into the belief of the Bible, even though it’s very minor. And that’s just my personal opinion. I’m not trying to change your opinion, I’m simply explaining to you why I do have doubt.

Well,

Im going to squeeze my 100th post in here before I go to bed.

I would like to know what you all thought of my last post, I havent heard anything sense I posted it...but I'm going to bed, if I don't get to do any posting in the morning, I'll refresh everyone Friday night.

Peace Love and Prosper.

I understand. But you must understand that each translation is a translation directly from the Greek and Hebrew scriptures, organized in a way to be grammatically correct (Such as, "Parlez vous francais?" would interlinearly translate into "Speak you French," but would be translated into Do you speak French?" to be understood better). They are not translations of the previous translations, so it's not like recording off of a recording of a recording of a videotape...you don't have integrity degredation each time. Even if one does not believe in the Bible, they can admit that the likelihood of it being corrupted by translation is very small, especially since not just Bible translators speak Hebrew and Greek.

I understand and respect the fact that you have these doubts. However, what I have experienced has led me to the strong belief that the Bible is God's written word, unfallable and unchanged. I have strayed from my beliefs before, and have seen the devastation that the path I was on led to. However, my life is so much better now, and not just because I am investing in my faith, but also because I am investing in my life and my relationships.

By the way, Overdose, I would like to thank you for proving to me that two people can actually have a civilized debate on this site...I think that before it was just the two of us in the discussion it was getting a little out of hand with the verbal bashing, etc. Feel free to give me a holler if you want to do another debate, but I have to get my sleep right now.


-Kyle Sheeks
"Walk Uprightly/Fail Magnificently"

Originally posted by Serophis
. But you must understand that each translation is a translation directly from the Greek and Hebrew scriptures, organized in a way to be grammatically correct (Such as, "Parlez vous francais?" would interlinearly translate into "Speak you French," but would be translated into Do you speak French?" to be understood better). They are not translations of the previous translations, so it's not like recording off of a recording of a recording of a videotape...you don't have integrity degredation each time. Even if one does not believe in the Bible, they can admit that the likelihood of it being corrupted by translation is very small, especially since not just Bible translators speak Hebrew and Greek.
I’ve never denied this simple fact, and I never will deny it…but translations no matter if they are off the original text do have errors. But when words are changed, no matter of their meaning or similarity it does spark doubt into the religion itself. I’ve shown you an example, and it does give me huge doubt. I will never become Christian again, nor do I want to.

This is not the only premise in which I am not Christian. I have strong ideals, which conflict with what the Bible says. It is hypocritical at many points, and is hateful towards me and my actions. This little doubt from the translation issue is only apart of the larger picture, in which I have a problem with the Christian religion as a whole. It’s a small piece, that has added to me breaking away from Christianity.

Originally posted by Serophis
. However, my life is so much better now, and not just because I am investing in my faith, but also because I am investing in my life and my relationships.
Honestly, my self-hate was worse when I was apart of this religion…because it chastised something that I was.

I understand...and like I said I don't have the heart nor the time to go into a debate on sexuality tonight. Tomorrow if I have time I will try though if you would like.

-Kyle Sheeks
"Walk Uprightly/Fail Magnificently"

Originally posted by Serophis
By the way, Overdose, I would like to thank you for proving to me that two people can actually have a civilized debate on this site...I think that before it was just the two of us in the discussion it was getting a little out of hand with the verbal bashing, etc. Feel free to give me a holler if you want to do another debate, but I have to get my sleep right now.


Many others would disagree with you, well at least the Republicans…hehe. Religion isn’t my strong point, politics is. I’m an extreme liberal, so if you want to debate me, and see how ruthless I can be…head over to that section. Talk to you later.
:flowers:

SO it seems everyone agrees the Bible has changed so now onto the next question, How much that is left is true? Who decides what is true and what is false? Will the Bible keep on changing so it can keep up with mans opinion? What will the Bible be like 2000 years from now?

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Here is a link that is the findings on a research of the Bible's historical relevance...

http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/editors-choice/EC2W1002.pdf


Well... I did say that I would thank you for trying, so... Thank you for trying.

I'm afraid I should have been more specific in my request for supporting evidence. While I have no doubt that you believe this evidence to be accurate, I must say that I was looking for evidence from a relatvely un-biased source. If this evidence is correct it should be no problem to find corroboration from a university or a museum with no Christian affiliations.

The evidence you cited I believe is completely unreliable because it comes from a "Research Institute" founded and operated by a Televangelist. While I don't doubt Mr. Ankerberg's faith, he has no credentials that would lead me to believe that he's an expert in History.

And speaking of Prophicies, how can you deny them?

For example,

The detailed fall of the Grecian empire, the fact that upon Alexander's death his kindgom would be devided into four parts,
the fact that Isreal would become a nation in 1948, the fact that the Roman Empire would get back together is unfolding now in the from of the European Union.

All in all there are 2500 prophecies in the bible, about 2000 of which already been fulfilled down to the smallest of detail. The remaining 500 stretch into the future and our accuring today (i.e. the European Union)

Heres a nice statistic sense you all love your science so much...


The possibility of these prophecy's coming true, as they have, the odds are 10 to the 2000th. That's 1 with 2000 zero's after it.

I would be very interested to have you cite specific Bible prophecies, meaning where they are specifically found in the Bible, and how they relate to the events prophecied. For example:

the fact that Isreal would become a nation in 1948,

Where does this prophecy appear in the Bible?
:)

Another thread bump :D

Serophis got married today!!!!!!

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Serophis got married today!!!!!!

Please convey my best wishes. :)

Will do! He still speaks of you from time to time (although its been nearly a year)

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Will do! He still speaks of you from time to time (although its been nearly a year)

And here I thought Serophis was female...convey my congratulations then...

Ah, yeah, now that I think about it: People kept saying "she" and the like, while in discussion with him.

But yeah, he found a girl that relates to him a lot, but has enough differences to keep him interested.

About the bible being unchanged or not-I think we've all figured out that the translations are different even if you use the kjv you still need a concordance to look up the meaning of words b/c the bible was translated/transliterated from different languages so w/o help one couldn't understand what God was really saying in His letter to you.
Next,OD if any person made you feel hated & claimed to be a Christian they are fakes-if the word made you feel hated it must have been a misunderstanding b/c I don't think God hates us he hates things we do & one doesn't stop doing stuff to be a Christian if you love the Lord & it's wrong He will change your heart.