I was contemplating today about what would make me religious. I am a free thinker/agnostic who does not mind the idea of a special being making things work, but who does not believe in organized religions. Then I extended my thoughts and tried to come up with something which, if it were to happen, should make any athiest instantly religious. I assume that an athiest bases their decision making on rationality, evidence, and logic.

Turns out it's actually very easy. It just doesn't happen in the real world (why?). A simple, sample answer would look like this:

I'm doing my chores or whatnot one afternoon and a voice sounds in my head and calls my name. I ask in my head, who is this? Voice answers "I am Jesus (or Allah...etc.)". I then ask, "so you do exist? Then ### religion is completely true, every word of its teaching?" Voice answers "That is correct" (or something like "no, only xxx branch of that religion got it right). I then ask "please prove your power to me in any manner that we can both agree on, in this instance" If the miracle then duly happens, and I am able to ensure that I do not have psychological problems genetically or recently, then this much will do.

Will it do for athiests in general? I'm just curious. I'm pretty sure it's enough for most agnostics.

And also to religious people I ask. If this is what is required for an athiest to become religious, is it reasonble, or is it asking too much? Why?

Why would an allmighty force have to prove anything to you or any other human? What would be the proof, example: if you are God then turn my house into a castle? If you choose not to believe then maybe you are allready missing the proof in the 1st place?

In Christianity, faith is called for. In fact, as far as i can tell, faith is the main ingredient in the mix. Therefore, if you require an act of God to make you believe, you have no faith. No one can teach you faith. You either have it, search for reasons to have it, or you dont have it at all.

When Jesus was being tempted in the desert, Satan asked, "if you are truly born the son of God, show me, for the scriptures say if you jump, a thousand angels will rush to catch you" and Jesus politely replied..."the scriptures also say, do not tempt thy God."

You see Jesus was showing how great God was through the power of his faith. God nor Christ neads to reveal himself in some magic trick, to show that he is here. God reveals himself through his word, and speaks to you through prayer. Because prayer is of course talking "with" God, not just to him.

I agree with the beginning post. If there was a god or gods, then I would definately need proof to believe in them. There's no reason to believe otherwise.

Originally posted by Lithorien
I agree with the beginning post. If there was a god or gods, then I would definately need proof to believe in them. There's no reason to believe otherwise. Then its a moot point with you. Revel in your lack of belief.

I wish more of the athiests on the forum, many there are, give their opinions.

I definitely agree with the notion that with every religion, faith is the primary ingredient. But this should still be very interesting post to respond to.

Originally posted by Lithorien
]I agree with the beginning post. If there was a god or gods, then I would definately need proof to believe in them. There's no reason to believe otherwise. ]

Here is a little proof for you, the planets, the sun, water, wind, life, the unknown, what we will learn, etc.....

He who puts the Lord on trial, Puts himself on the stand

I would ask nothing of him other than proof. Such a simple task, why not do it? If it's because he just wants a bunch of people who believe just because they are told to, then I wouldn't want to know him at all. But voices in my head wouldn't do it, for all I know it's just me :D

Here is a little proof for you, the planets, the sun, water, wind, life, the unknown, what we will learn, etc.....
That wont cut it. Because not a single one of them has to be attributed to a god.

Originally posted by mad dog
Here is a little proof for you, the planets, the sun, water, wind, life, the unknown, what we will learn, etc.....

Prove that those MUST HAVE been created by a god.

Originally posted by Lithorien
I agree with the beginning post. If there was a god or gods, then I would definately need proof to believe in them. There's no reason to believe otherwise.
Yes. And if I had proof, there of course would be no reason to disbelieve. That's what "proof" means.

Why does it bother religious fanatics so much that some people don't believe in their god? I mean, doesn't that just make more room in their so called heaven? How would they feel superior without us poor souls to look down on. Who would they condecend to if it weren't for us non believers? Who would they have to pray for if all us non believers started praying with them? And it would certainly make it difficult for a JW to get to heaven if they couldn't make any points trespassing and disturbing people in their own homes. Who would they pass those watchtowers out to if we all had them?

Faith demands one subjugate logic.

The question is really, why do you care so much that we do believe in God?

Of course, the answer to your question, is that because we as Christians are commanded to love you....so why do you as a practicer of "looking at ones conscience for hummanity" load of crap....why do you care so much?

I think its a simple conviction:D

Geez echo you cant give it a rest can ya?

Actually, I could care less what you or anyone else believes. What I do care about though is the people who try to make me live by their religions beliefs.

Just for a minute, try to imagine what it would be like for you to have to live in a society that was hard core fanatical Muslim. Where 80% of the people expected you to live by their religious beliefs. And they passed laws forcing you to live by those beliefs. How would you like that?

Wouldn't you rather live in a world of tolerance. Wouldn't you rather be allowed to live by your own beliefs and practice them as you see fit and teach your children the religion you want them to learn?

That is all I want. To be able to send my children to school and not have someone elses religion taught to them. Or to not have someone religion shoved down my throat everytime I turn around.

I realize you don't see our society that way because it is human nature to not really pay attention to things that aren't bothering us and being a christian, the christian influence in our society most likely escapes you or if you are aware of it, it probubly doesn't bother you.

So it isn't that you believe in god (though I believe it is harmfull to your being to do so - it is your choice), it is more that christians just can't seem to keep their religious beliefs to themselfs.

You are almost being a hypocrite. That is all that we want, that is to live in a world of tolerance. You proved my own point. You are not being tolerant of our beliefs or any christains belief by downing it. I can tolerate your beliefs and respect them. All I ask is that you do the same. K?

Amen! Finally a voice of reason!

Originally posted by Lithorien
Prove that those MUST HAVE been created by a god. [/B]

Prove that they weren't, or atleast give proof of how everything started?

See everything comes back to square one, You can not disprove me, and I can not disprove you. So the truth ends up in the eye of the beholder.

Originally posted by Echo2
Actually, I could care less what you or anyone else believes. What I do care about though is the people who try to make me live by their religions beliefs.

Just for a minute, try to imagine what it would be like for you to have to live in a society that was hard core fanatical Muslim. Where 80% of the people expected you to live by their religious beliefs. And they passed laws forcing you to live by those beliefs. How would you like that?

Wouldn't you rather live in a world of tolerance. Wouldn't you rather be allowed to live by your own beliefs and practice them as you see fit and teach your children the religion you want them to learn?

That is all I want. To be able to send my children to school and not have someone elses religion taught to them. Or to not have someone religion shoved down my throat everytime I turn around.

I realize you don't see our society that way because it is human nature to not really pay attention to things that aren't bothering us and being a christian, the christian influence in our society most likely escapes you or if you are aware of it, it probubly doesn't bother you.

So it isn't that you believe in god (though I believe it is harmfull to your being to do so - it is your choice), it is more that christians just can't seem to keep their religious beliefs to themselfs. Im sorry but this is just a bullshit post. If you are american you do live in a society of tolerance. You do live by your own beliefs and practice them as long as they dont break MANS law. You CAN teach your children any religion you want. Nothing is being "shoved" down your throat unless you are too scared to speak up and simply tell them to kindly fuck off. But i guess your point is you shouldnt HAVE to tell them right? You shouldnt have to be inconvenienced. Because that is all it is. An inconvenience. Not anything being "shoved" down your throat.


Seems like you are the person suffering from a lack of tolerance.

I sneeze - someone says bless you
From Labor day to new years I have to look at and listen to religious propaganda. It is everywhere.
Christians are keeping my cousin from marrying her lover.
Christians are keeping my sweetheart from being able to die.
Christians try to keep women from being able to control their own bodies
Christians tell me I can't swim topless in the ocean
Christians have their stamp on my money
Christians have their stamp on my national anthem
the faux president invokes his christian god with every third word he mumbles
Christians knock on my door at any time of day and try to assimilate me into their cults
christiand want to put THEIR prayer in our schools and assimilate my children into their cults
And these are just the overt things.

If you don't see that our society is permeated with Christianity you are blind. This nation is over 78% Christian. Ours laws come from christian values. Our morals come from Christian teachings, our values are based on Christian phylosophy.

Don't even try to tell us that christians are tolerant. They are very intolerant people. Christianity teaches that they are right and all other beliefs are wrong. Christianity teaches that they will go to heaven and everyone else will go to hell. Christianity says it teaches love but they hate and they hate vehemantly. It was christianity that backed the KKK, it is our faux president that invokes god to fight a war for christian beliefs (he is born again and born againers believe that the christians will inhabit the holy land at the second coming - don't think that didn't influence the little shrub). Christians hate gays, hate choice, hate anyone that is not bound by their uptight and anal attitudes about sex. They will tell you they don't hate, but their actions are what speak.

But I guess I am the one being intolerant since it is my body they want to control, me kids they want to try and assimilate and my cousin they are denying cival rights to.

Originally posted by Echo2
I sneeze - someone says bless you
From Labor day to new years I have to look at and listen to religious propaganda. It is everywhere.
Christians are keeping my cousin from marrying her lover.
Christians are keeping my sweetheart from being able to die.
Christians try to keep women from being able to control their own bodies
Christians tell me I can't swim topless in the ocean
Christians have their stamp on my money
Christians have their stamp on my national anthem
the faux president invokes his christian god with every third word he mumbles
Christians knock on my door at any time of day and try to assimilate me into their cults
christiand want to put THEIR prayer in our schools and assimilate my children into their cults
And these are just the overt things.

If you don't see that our society is permeated with Christianity you are blind. This nation is over 78% Christian. Ours laws come from christian values. Our morals come from Christian teachings, our values are based on Christian phylosophy.

Don't even try to tell us that christians are tolerant. They are very intolerant people. Christianity teaches that they are right and all other beliefs are wrong. Christianity teaches that they will go to heaven and everyone else will go to hell. Christianity says it teaches love but they hate and they hate vehemantly. It was christianity that backed the KKK, it is our faux president that invokes god to fight a war for christian beliefs (he is born again and born againers believe that the christians will inhabit the holy land at the second coming - don't think that didn't influence the little shrub). Christians hate gays, hate choice, hate anyone that is not bound by their uptight and anal attitudes about sex. They will tell you they don't hate, but their actions are what speak.

But I guess I am the one being intolerant since it is my body they want to control, me kids they want to try and assimilate and my cousin they are denying cival rights to. You're right. You are living in a country where the majority are christian. Yet you still have the right to your own opinions and views when it comes to any topic. Try a muslim country. See how long your lack of tolerance for thier religion will be allowed. Like i said, everything you point out is just an inconvenience for you. You choose to blame christians for all the wrong in your life.

You think that christians do not have to put up with a lot of shit they dont agree with? You just have this lame one sided point of view on this issue.

You say you want to control your body? I say you want to kill an innocent life. I say if you want to kill yourself, do it.
As far as homo's getting married. There are more people than just christians who do not agree with homosexual marriage. Trust me, the majority just agree that homosexuality in general is wrong and against the natural order. There is a different side to every issue. You just choose to blame all the percieved evils in your life on christians. Like i said, go to a muslim country and talk your bullshit. Good luck if you do.

You entirely missed the point. But then religion demands that you subjugate logic and common sense and spew rhetoric.

Echo what happened in your life that has made you such an angry person?

I apologize if I am butting in and ask that you please bear with me, I'm not very advanced in age, nor very knowledgeble. But to ease some tension, and return to the original thread point, I do not think it is possible to make an atheist believe in God, nor would I want to, if being an atheist gave that person some sort of happiness, peace of mind, then why attempt to change that? When a person begins to look for truth he/she is not looking for someone else's truth, but for something that makes sense to them.
I cannot help but think that man is a transition, a crossbeam between nature and spirit, between the two extremes where existence hangs tremulous and irresolute and that each individual's life will end at one of the two extremes or the individual will fall off the crossbeam completely. The ascetic will fulfill his goal of enlightenment, he who seeks life in degradation will find ample, and he who succeeds in neither of these endeavors will live in the struggle which shall make a wise man of him or destroy him completely. To each his own I say.

In creating this topic one intention was to confirm to myself and perhaps demonstrate to people who do not understand athiests the decision making process of the athiest. Sometimes I see religious voices complaining about athiests refusing to believe what is evidently "obvious". But IMO such "obvious" evidence requires faith in the first place. Basing their decision making on logic and fact, rationality and inquiry, the athiest would theoretically gladly become religious when the evidence requiring no faith in the first place (such as the one I provided in the beginning) to comprehend appears. Of course religion, being based on faith almost by definition, does not work this way. So, if we deduce everything, we see that the athiests are naturally faithless, but in most cases not self-contradicting, grumpy, cowarding, stupid, or non-sense. There is very basic problem when an athiest argues with a religious person--their frame of reference are different. I think too often the religious person mistakenly assumes that certain things requiring faith to be of value are commonly accepted, and the arguments ends up going nowhere because invariably it is not accepted by the athiest on the merit of faith alone in the first place.

Nice post Dio, I would like to add what I feel is a good example of this lack of a common frame of reference.

People of faith often feel, that because they recognize that their faith has brought good things into their life, such as peace of mind, hope for the future etc., that those without such faith, lack these positive things in their life. They aren't willing to recognize that it's possible for someone to have the same positive outlook without sharing their faith.

Atheists on the other hand, often feel that they have a more rational view of the world, and can't understand how, or why, someone would choose to go through life, believing in something that ultimately will remain "unproven", at least in this life.

It's the old story of the group of blind men attempting to describe an elephant by feel alone. None of us ever gets to feel the whole animal all at once, so the best we can hope for is a partial understanding of the other's experience.

A reference was made to try living in a Muslim country where religion does not tolerate other opinions.

I believe, that if the U. S. could be run completely by those of the Christian faith, that intolerance would come in to play eventually here also. Some are rather radical. History shows that many have lost their lives for not believing in all the principals of Christianity.
From the abortion clinics to the holy crusades many examples are evident.

I do not remember athiests killing Christians for their beliefs.

When the Romans killed Christians it appears that it was more for political reasons than religious reasons.

Handed down views on religious matters often remain with a person throughout their life. But, I have seen more evidence of a non-belief as the years have gone by. We have religious channels on t.v. We have churches in most every community. People are constantly bombarded with religious beliefs of some sort. I personally do not know of one channel on t.v. where athiest views are discussed on a weekly basis. Nor do I know of a publication that regularly gives people a view of how to cope with a religious world, when a God is not believed in.
Maybe I should start one. Or is there already such that I do not know about?

The reason none of these views are discussed, are because they are wrong.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
The reason none of these views are discussed, are because they are wrong.
Arrogant ass.

It is impossible to debate religion for the simple reason that religious belief depends upon scripture and is entirely defended by scripture. Whereas non religious people do not accept scripture as anything more than a fictional book, with no more weight than a book of nursury rymes.

Religious people base everything they believe on what is in that book. And if something isn't in that book, then it isn't true or doesn't exist (evolution for example).

A limited way of experiencing the world, but the mojority of them are happy in their delusional ignorance so why bother to educate them.

THat was kinda sort of arrogant dont ya think. Kinda tit for tat on that front.

I see nothing arrogant about calling things the way they are. For someone to base their entire existance and everything that they will eventually allow into their life on an ancient book is a very limited way to experience the world. Ignorance does not mean stupid, it means uninformed.

Religious people don't want to have evolution even taught. To not allow something limits ones existance. Like banning books that say things we dont want to hear. When we choose to restrict what we can hear about, we are limiting our existance and making ourselfs ignorant. Ignorance does not mean stupid, it means uninformed.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Arrogant ass.

I don't think theres anything arrogant about that.

I have my right to call things as I see them and know them too.


Atheism is wrong. Although by law you have the freedom to live that way if you do so chose. In the end, I wish you wouldnt, because I don't want anyone to go to Hell, but we live in a stubborn world today, where people only demand and never search.

Please explain the demand and search statement. I have found that the majority of atheists have done more searching than most christians. Christians for the most part believe what their mommy and daddy taught them. They don't bother to research other religions or theologies because the religion they were taught as a child tells them not to. (very enlightening). Whereas atheists tend to have done extensive reading and studying of a variety of religions and have determined that they are nonsensical.

One is making an educated and studied choice while the other is blindily following out of fear of damnation what they were taught as a child.

We live in a stubborn world.

Most everyone is used to having everything given to them, barley doing anything for themselves, accept working.

As technology makes us think we are further and further away from the past, people have grown away from God. I think this whole idea of Athiesm began with people thinking they outgrew the need for God, and it just isnt the case.

What I mean by always demanding and never searching....is they demand proof of God's existense....they want him to float down on a cloud and take them on a ride over the desert or something, instead of reading God's word, praying to God, attending church, learning about him and having faith.

"HAVING FAITH"

There is absolutely no reason for me to have faith. None. There is no evidence of a god. God has not been proven in any experiments. Evidence does not even suggest the existence of a god.

I was a Christian once, you know. Never did me a bit of good. And God certainly never spoke to me, or did things in such a way which would inspire more faith in him. Thus, I began to disbelieve in him, and look where I am today.

There is no rational reason to believe in a god. Unless you can provide me with one.

While discussing the existence of God in college, we decided that a god must be three things in order to be a god. It must be an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving entity. If it missed one of those things it wasn't a god but a being.

I asked then, how do you explain the millions of children who die horrible, painful deaths of starvation? Does God not know of those chldren? Does God not love them? Is he not able to help them?

That debate was the first day I realized that I just didn't believe what I had been told to believe. In short when children stop dying of starvation, I will reconsider God's existence.

It must be an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving entity.
Why does it have to be all-loving?

I've thought about it and I don't recall the exact answer 20 years later.

I remember it as not being 'petty' or ruled by emotion. That a God wouldn't create something to worship him or get 'mad' at something he created. Nor would he create merely to destroy. By this logic, the Norse, Greek and Roman 'gods' were really just powerful supermen or super-beings.

That particular mindset does allow for us to have been created by a non-god, however. I don't believe that, either.

Originally posted by Raton
]While discussing the existence of God in college, we decided that a god must be three things in order to be a god. It must be an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving entity. If it missed one of those things it wasn't a god but a being.

All powerfull and all knowing belong together. All loving is an emotion, so would God even give 2 sh**s about a human emotion? Or maybe we just don't understand Gods way of thinking about love?

I asked then, how do you explain the millions of children who die horrible, painful deaths of starvation?

Maybe he gave us life and then decided his part of the job was done???

Does God not know of those chldren?

If God is ALL knowing then I quess God would know.

Does God not love them? Is he not able to help them?

Once again with human emotion and God babysitting. Maybe God has better things to do then give humans all of Its time.

That debate was the first day I realized that I just didn't believe what I had been told to believe. In short when children stop dying of starvation, I will reconsider God's existence.

Would you really or would you keep asking for more proof. Some folks won't believe in God untill everyone is rich, which wouldn't work either because if everyone were rich how would we know the difference between rich and poor? Maybe we have bad things happen so we can relize how important good things are?

I have to admit that I don't recall the argument that made the 'all-loving' component of the three parts compelling enough that we included it in the criteria. These discussions weren't part of my studies (computer science), just something we did during off-periods.

Still, in most Christian circles, Jehovah is portrayed as a 'loving' God. Assuming that he fulfills the other two criteria, the anguish of those children remains unexplained.

You say that "Maybe he gave us life and then decided his part of the job was done???". Is that what you believe? That comes closer to the 'alien science experiment' explanation for creation than most religious beliefs.

I concede that a god's existence does not rely on a religion, but my notions of what God is or should be have been have come mostly from being raised in a Christian society. Christianity (and most other creation stories) has a larger purpose behind the creation act.

As to your last point, I said I would reconsider, not change my mind. I wouldn't ask God to make everyone rich, I would ask him to end needless suffering. Even if you could convince me that those children 'need' to die of starvation to fulfill 'God's Will', why do thier mothers 'need' to watch thier babies die?

Echo, you make educated, well thought out and valid arguments. It saddens me to see them denounced with such self-righteous flimsy non-points. But what do you expect from a country that voted for the moron of whom you refer? With everyone attacking your view I thought I'd let you know that your threads were a pleasure to read.

Atheism and Agnosticism both are religions that require great leaps of blind faith. Not only are they religions, but they are extremely exclusive religions.
We all have faith gang, my question is where are you putting yours?

Originally posted by stark
Atheism and Agnosticism both are religions that require great leaps of blind faith. Not only are they religions, but they are extremely exclusive religions.
We all have faith gang, my question is where are you putting yours?
Bullshit. I have no faith whatsoever, that's why I'm essentially agnostic. I don't know, that's the definition of agnosticism.

Originally posted by stark
Atheism and Agnosticism both are religions that require great leaps of blind faith.

What leaps of faith would those be Stark?

Not only are they religions, but they are extremely exclusive religions.
We all have faith gang, my question is where are you putting yours?

I think to make your point you should first define what you believe a "religion" to be.

Stark, does it take faith not to believe in Santa Clause, Superman, or Zues, Allah ect.......? I know it may be a silly question, but where do you draw the line of what a religion is?:confused:

We have religious channels on t.v. We have churches in most every community. People are constantly bombarded with religious beliefs of some sort.

Well hot damn, folks! We need to fix this problem! Ban religious channels! Put a limit on the number of churches per square mile and disguise the ones we have so that no one knows it is a church!

Originally posted by stark
Atheism and Agnosticism both are religions that require great leaps of blind faith. Not only are they religions, but they are extremely exclusive religions.
We all have faith gang, my question is where are you putting yours?
-----------------------------

I'm having a little problem with this ( not believing in something is a religion thing). Heck, I would be one religious guy as much as I do not believe in the Democratic and Republican Parties.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
I was contemplating today about what would make me religious.
....Turns out it's actually very easy......
Will it do for athiests in general?

What it would take for me is simply one repeatable, scientifically testable [iow, falsifiable] instance of a supernatural occurence of any kind.

If the physical laws that govern our reality can be bent or thwarted by some outside agency, then anything is possible........even an invisible Father figure in the sky, who waved his magic wand and created 100 trillion stars in seven days, yet who is offended and angered should two different types of cloth be sewn into the same garment.......an omnipotent being who is Master of all Space and Time, who watches over us all and who really, really, really, really loves us humans, yet who stands ready to sentence us to an eternity of torture if we should fail to please him.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Im sorry but this is just a bullshit post. If you are american you do live in a society of tolerance. You do live by your own beliefs and practice them as long as they dont break MANS law. You CAN teach your children any religion you want. Nothing is being "shoved" down your throat unless you are too scared to speak up and simply tell them to kindly fuck off. But i guess your point is you shouldnt HAVE to tell them right? You shouldnt have to be inconvenienced. Because that is all it is. An inconvenience. Not anything being "shoved" down your throat.


Seems like you are the person suffering from a lack of tolerance.

Try the southern states dumbass. You either are religious or you're treated like shit down there. And they don't care if ya tell them to "kindly fuck off", like a bad case of jock itch, they keep insulting you and ruining your life. That aint love my friends, thats ignorance and hate. (im referring to Havoc)

How much do you truly know about the South, from way up there in Canada?

I live in Kentucky. I hope I have been a decent example that Christians are an accepting bunch. I would agree that there are those lose cannons out there that stand for seperation and hate, and I dont agree with them, or buy into their way of thinking.

For the most part, true Christians are accepting of all, and hope that each get to go to Heaven.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
How much do you truly know about the South, from way up there in Canada?

I happen to know a bit about it. I was raised in Mississippi, and still live in the South.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I would agree that there are those lose cannons out there that stand for seperation and hate, and I dont agree with them, or buy into their way of thinking.

Yeah....there are a few *loose cannons* in Mississippi and the neighboring states; people who think that if you are not a White, heterosexual, Bible-believing, gun-control-opposing, flag-waver, you are not fit to live in "their" country; --- those "loose cannons" making up about +90% of the populace, from my experience.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
For the most part, true Christians are accepting of all,

Really?

I've lived among nothing BUT Christians since the day i was born.

I guess not many of them were your version of "true" Christians, because the vast majpority of Christian religionists I have known are pretty much the antithesis of **accepting of all**.

Too true Freethink. Robert Lee and Pastor Jim Nicholas are the loose cannons down there. They're anti-everything except christianity.
Pastor Jim says he is a loving man, but when it comes to blacks, atheists, gays, etc, he's froathing at the mouth to kill, maim, and demonize these people. Just goes to show you how "loving" these christians can be.