I am serious, kerry has been in the senate for 20 years, why is it not even mentioned in all of this convention hoopla? we hear endlessly about 4 months in vietnam, but not 20 years in the senate? That is really fishy. Why, oh why, is the past 20 years erased from memory and we are focused on 4 months in the 60's? Ya ya, I heard about how that shows he is quick under fire and able to lead a boat through the delta and blah blah blah, but shouldnt an examination of his Senate service be part of this election? Is all of this vietnam hoopla a distraction from his senate voting record? thats what it seems like. I am serious, what in the world happend to the past 20 years? All i see is a bunch of manchurian candidate service buddys all saying the same thing "John kerry is the kindest, braves, most bestest leader I ever saw" while the one guy who wont vouch for him is an abomination and kept locked away. if you look at it from above it is all pretty crazy.

Travh, it isn't about the issues, it's about Kerry not being Bush remember?

oh ya, he is not bush and makes big promises, kind of like hitler and weimar republic in the 30's.

Trav, only once I saw a t.v. report that stated that the only senator that voted less than Edwards was Kerry.
Have not seen any statistics.
If this is true, why are they suddenly so interested in the welfare of Americans if they didn't care enough to vote on bills before?

I just find it strange how a 20 year senate record has been erased from existance and all of our focus diverted to vietnam. ya, he was in vietnam, e gathered that from all the subtle hints :rolleyes: I want to know why it is being kept so quiet. the only reason is becasue it sucks, and they all know it. if it were any good they would compaing it with bushs presidency. I guess the ony thing kerry has over bush is that he was in vietnam.

This one is too easy ...

Kerry is under no obligation to explain anything that happened years back -- especially 20 years back. Bush himself set that standard by saying he didn't have to explain what he did 20 years ago -- it's water under the bridge and not applicable to the election in 2000 and that is how he got around his drivers license issue, his awol issue, his abortion issue etc.

So, if bush didn't have to cover his bases from 20 years ago -- why does Kerry suddenly have to?

Dop

great answer dop :rolleyes: too bad I am not talking about 20 years ago, lets try last year, can we go back that far? is that OK with you?

I find it ironic how John Kerry has to explain himself being a Senator, yet George Bush never explained himself being a Governor. I mean, in 2000 what qualified George Bush…? What hard experience did he have? Was he in the Senate? No. Was he Governor? Yes. Did he do much as Governor? No. Did he serve in a war? No. Yet, he was oh so qualified to be our President.

PLEASE ANSWER: Why no mention of Kerry's Senate record?

What record, how do you talk about something that doesn't exist.

This is what's been said about his voting record so far on this thread:

we hear endlessly about 4 months in vietnam, but not 20 years in the senate? That is really fishy. Why, oh why, is the past 20 years erased from memory and we are focused on 4 months in the 60's?

Perhaps we hear endlessly about Vietnam because you and your fellow conservatives, extoll the virtues of the military, and demand support for our troops in Iraq one moment, and then in the next breath denigrate a man who won five decorations in a 3 month period in Vietnam. No hypocrisy there, no sir.


What record, how do you talk about something that doesn't exist.?

Ok, let's talk about his non-existent voting record.

Many people have repeated the charge that John Kerry voted against every major weapons system while in Congress. For example:

Praetorian:

He has consistently failed to support our military and CIA by voting against budgets, thus gutting the US’s ability to defend itself.

There have been many other posts in multiple threads, about how John Kerry voted to cut 16 major weapons systems including the M-1 tank, B-1 bomber, Patriot missiles and so on.

This charge comes from the RNC and is calculated to portray Kerry as soft on defense.

The truth is, that 13 of the 16 systems that Kerry voted to cut, were part of a single appropriations bill in 1991, that the Republican administration, urged Congess to cut.

Then Secretary of Defense Cheney in 1991:

"You've squabbled and sometimes bickered and horse-traded and ended up forcing me to spend money on weapons that don't fill a vital need in these times of tight budgets and new requirements."

Cheney went on to name the M-1 tank and the F-14 and F-16 fighters-- all of which appear on the RNC's list-- as "great systems" that "we have enough of."

Vice President Cheney in an interview with Fox News Channel's Brit Hume, March 2 2004:

"What we're concerned about, what I'm concerned about, is his record in the United States Senate, where he clearly has over the years adopted a series of positions that indicate a desire to cut the defense budget, to cut the intelligence budget, to eliminate many major weapons programs."

I'll be honest and say that I don't know that much about Kerry's Senate voting record, but it does seem interesting to me that the people who do know something about it feel they must lie about it in order to make Kerry look bad. Perhaps that means it's not a bad record after all, since if it was a bad record, there would be no need to lie.

http://www.fair.org/press-releases/kerry-military-votes.html

Kerry has a very strong record in the Senate. The only problem is, the repubs always spin his record to make it appear negative. They can't do that to his Vietnam record. (Well actually they are starting to try...look at what they did to Max Cleland).

yes, to liberals kerrys voting record is very strong. too bad we are not all liberals.

overdose, I never said Kerry wasnt qualified to be president. I said he was unfit. 20 years in the US senate is a mjor thing, and more then qualifies someone to be president. If he had never served in the senate he would be nothing more then another vietnam vet married to a billionairess. Dont you see it isnt Vietnam that qualifies him? if it were there would be millions of people who could claim to be qualified to be pres. It is his senate record that qualifies him. If we voted the president based who had the most medals or the best war storys kerry wouldnt even be close. SOme SGT York type hick farmboy from Alabama or somewhere who routed an entire NVA regiment by himself would be president. So, knowing this, why are his years in senate seldom, if ever, refered to, while all the hippies who burned flags and protested the war now extole the virtues ofserving in vietnam? its disengenious, and a smoke screen if I ever saw one.

Travh - I am curious what it was that qualified bush to be president three years ago? Was it his six failed ventures into business? His national guard record? His foriegn policy experience? Maybe his political experience on the federal level? Or is it just that god talks to him so he must be the right guy for the position.

Any help you can give me to help figure this out would be really helpfull because I just don't see where he should have even been a contender. And if not, why is it so bad that another person with MORE federal experience, MORE foriegn policy experience, and MORE military experience is less qualified?

Originally posted by Travh20
yes, to liberals kerrys voting record is very strong.
People have already showed you that you are wrong on him being weak on defense…and what else is bad about his record?

Originally posted by Travh20
Dont you see it isnt Vietnam that qualifies him?
You’re correct it doesn’t fully qualify him, but in my opinion it makes him a better pick for our Commander in Chief.

And just a quick question Trav…
What were George Bush’s major accomplishments as Governor of Texas? Everyone seemed to think he was qualified, even though he hardly did anything as Governor. And how long was he Governor compared to Kerry’s years in the Senate…working with foreign leaders and understanding how our government works?

I find it highly ironic how the Republicans hardly ever touched on his record as Governor in 2000, yet they find it perfectly fine to question Kerry’s record in the Senate.

Originally posted by Overdose

What were George Bush’s major accomplishments as Governor of Texas?

Well when he ran in 2000, he spoke a lot about the Texas patient's bill of rights. He never mentioned that he vetoed it though :cool: .

overdose, bushs record was and is scrutinized. HE brought it up. if kerrys record is so strong and great why isnt HE mentioning it? why during his speech did he not go over all the important legislation he enacted and voted for? it just doesnt make sense. the only reason the democrats dont bring it up is because they are either scared of it or ashamed of it. I swear to god all I vever hear about john kerry is vietnam. of course I fell into the trap of debating vietnam and forgettign about his senate record, just as was the idea. I ahve cought on now. mentioning vietnam every 5 minutes is intended to do a couple of things. #1 is to draw attention away from his other public servie, that being senate and LT Governor of MAss, second is to try and show how tough he is, because they know without it he is nothing more thena sissy gold digging massacheusetts liberals.

Originally posted by Travh20
HE brought it up.
He did…? Well what was so good about it? Do you recall? Because I didn’t hear him say anything about his wonderful Governor years. It was just him, making promises he couldn’t keep. You cannot have it both ways. Bush hardly ever touched on his service as Governor, and yet you think Kerry should be forced to touch on his record in the Senate...?

Originally posted by Travh20
because they know without it he is nothing more thena sissy gold digging massacheusetts liberals.
Some more ethical, wonderful insight from Trav.

your right, I think in the debate bush should go over his record as governor of texas, and kerry could talk endlessly about vietnam again, taht way we could avoid all that pesky terrorism and other issues that actually effect us all :rolleyes: you are an idiot. actually, kerry skipping over his senate time to focus on vietnam would be like bush skipping over his presidency and basing his campaign on his time as governor of texas. thats exaxtly how it is. anyway, I know your fine forgetting the past 20 yers of kerrys life and focusing on 4 months in vietnam, and its sad.

Cheney went on to name the M-1 tank and the F-14 and F-16 fighters-- all of which appear on the RNC's list-- as "great systems" that "we have enough of."

Yeah, they were great systems...in 1991. If you're not developing, you're dying, and that's all there is to it. Truth be told, the M-1 has been replaced by a totally kick-ass M-2, A-2 Abraham’s tank that uses a proprietary type carbon composite in it's main structure to reduce weight. It has the ability to target multiple targets while moving across undulating terrain at 40 MPH. The F-14 is definitely at the end of its lifespan, and has served us well for 35 years. It's being replaced by the awesome F-22, and I won't bore you with the incredible details of that world-class fighter. The F-16, still a great jet, is going to stay commissioned for probably the next twenty years, but with continual plans to modernize the avionics. All of the machines listed are still relatively competitive on a worldwide scale, but in serious danger of being outclassed by Russian aerospace technology (i.e. the Mig 37, etc.). What do you think Kerry will do about that? Do you think, given his voting record, he'll continue to develop these systems? Honestly, you have to know the man's a milquetoast, and he's proven his distain for the military for the last 40 friggin years of his life. It's just recently that military service has become so important to him, and that’s the major slap in the face we shouldn’t put up with as a country.

Originally posted by Travh20
your right, I think in the debate bush should go over his record as governor of texas
He sure didn’t in 2000.

Originally posted by Travh20
and kerry could talk endlessly about vietnam again
Alrighty…whatever you say Trav.

Originally posted by Travh20
you are an idiot.
Maturity runs high with you, doesn’t it?

Originally posted by Travh20
actually, kerry skipping over his senate time to focus on vietnam would be like bush skipping over his presidency and basing his campaign on his time as governor of texas.
When bush was running in 2000 he hardly mentioned his accomplishments as Governor, just like Kerry is not mentioning his accomplishments as Senator.

Remember this is Kerry’s first year running, and Bush in his first year of running he hardly touched on being Governor or his achievements. And in Kerry’s first year of running, he also has hardly touched on his Senate record.

It’s simply the same. You accuse Kerry of not touching on his record, yet you found it perfectly okay for Bush to not touch on his record. Very wise of you. Double standard…anyone?

And it’s funny because Bush hardly goes over his time in the Presidency either. He just attacks Kerry…and that’s about all he does. Because he doesn’t have a record to go off of.

Maturity runs high with you, doesn’t it?

Maybe not, but my guess is that neither does his tolerance of idiotism.

Just keep paying attention. Listen to who is doing the bashing and who isn't. That should give you a real good idea of who his trying to keep the focus off of themselves by bashing their opponant.

I watched the dem convention and I plan on watchng the Rep convention. It should be very interesting to see if the faux pres and his toady chenny can each give a 30 minute speach without bashing Kerry. Both Kerry and Edwards managed to give one without any bashing.

The fun is really going to start as we get closer to election day. A liar always gets caught in his own web, as bush has already found out. Lets see if he has learned anything from the experience.

LOL, how the hell do you know what bush said in his 2000 campaign, you were what, 10? Beleive me, his governor record was raked over the coals by the left wing media. it seems the media isnt to interested in kerrys record, only his vietnam sevice. Everytime I see a picture in the paper he is calle d"vietnam veteran and residential candidate John Kerry" its ridiculous. I dont even think Dwight Eisenhower relyed this heavily on his military time and he was 5 star general supreme allied commander of all european forces in WW2! Kerry was a LT who commanded 5 men on a swift boat for 4 months for christs sake! And kerry isnt simply "not mentioning" his senate record, he is avoiding it like the plague, as are you and all the other democrats. All tehy say is "he has a strong voting record" or "Why should he have to mention that?"

Originally posted by Overdose
And it’s funny because Bush hardly goes over his time in the Presidency either. He just attacks Kerry…and that’s about all he does. Because he doesn’t have a record to go off of.

I have to disagree with you on this point. He actually does have a record to discuss. Just not one that he wants anyone to hear about.

Originally posted by Travh20
LOL, how the hell do you know what bush said in his 2000 campaign, you were what, 10?
11, and I watched the news just as much as I do now. I hardly ever heard him touch on that issue of him being Governor. And no, Bush had no huge accomplishments as Governor, or anything “wonderful”. The only reason he was chosen was because his father was the President.

Originally posted by Travh20
Beleive me, his governor record was raked over the coals by the left wing media.
You mean like how Kerry’s senator record is now being trashed by the right wing media? Okay…

Originally posted by Travh20
Everytime I see a picture in the paper he is calle d"vietnam veteran and residential candidate John Kerry" its ridiculous.
I’m sorry you feel that way…maybe you shouldn’t involve your service as much, it’s ridiculous.

Originally posted by Travh20
Kerry was a LT who commanded 5 men on a swift boat for 4 months for christs sake!
And what did Bush do, while Kerry was in enemy fire saving his troops from death?

Originally posted by Travh20
And kerry isnt simply "not mentioning" his senate record, he is avoiding it like the plague, as are you and all the other democrats.
Well Bush didn’t “mention” his record either.

Originally posted by Travh20
All tehy say is "he has a strong voting record" or "Why should he have to mention that?"
And all the Republicans know is that he has a liberal record…wow good job guys.

oh, you were 11, excuse me all to hell :rolleyes: I am done with this topic. I am going to start a thread to debate kerrys actual votes. you obviously dont give a shit what he did or did not vote for, all you seem to care about is that he got shot at. Who knows, amybe kerrys service will inspire you to join up and lead men into battle overdose. I know you dont agree with the war, so it will be even more heroic for you to go to iraq, kin dof like how you said kerry was even more patriotic to go to fight in a war he disagreed with in your pathetic attempt to justify his outrageous action upon his return.

Originally posted by Travh20
oh, you were 11, excuse me all to hell
It really doesn’t matter what age I was. I paid attention to everything on the news, and online. I was just as active as I am now…and he hardly mentioned it.

Originally posted by Travh20
I am done with this topic.
Just like you were done with the Bush 04 thread. Nice one.

Originally posted by Travh20
you obviously dont give a shit what he did or did not vote for, all you seem to care about is that he got shot at.
You obviously don’t understand that Bush didn’t go on his record, yet you found him totally acceptable and supported him. Yet you think Kerry should have to go off his record, even though Bush didn’t? That is total BS.

Originally posted by Travh20
Who knows, amybe kerrys service will inspire you to join up and lead men into battle overdose.
Sorry, I think I’ll miss my medical check up.

Originally posted by Travh20
I know you dont agree with the war, so it will be even more heroic for you to go to iraq
Luckily, I’m only 15.

Originally posted by Travh20
kin dof like how you said kerry was even more patriotic to go to fight in a war he disagreed with in your pathetic attempt to justify his outrageous action upon his return.
I think I have justified them…yet you fail to comprehend that.

It really doesn’t matter what age I was. I paid attention to everything on the news, and online. I was just as active as I am now…and he hardly mentioned it.

Totally true...I think all 11 year olds should be able to drink, vote, drive cars, have jobs, and pay taxes. It's just too bad the rest of the world would think we were f'ing crazy.

Sorry, I think I’ll miss my medical check up.

Ahh, spoken like a true Liberal...good for you. America needs more pussies to talk up war, only to ditch it when called upon. Maybe you could draw the enemy a creative, colorful picture of a two male family, while wirting them a poem that contains fragmented lyrics from a song Maddona wrote.
*I'd be willing to bet 3:1 they'd run fast and far. Not a bad war tactic, if I do say so myself...*

Just like you were done with the Bush 04 thread. Nice one.

Don't you get??? There is no debating with you, and trust me, it's not because you're "on target". It's one thing to debate a liberal, and it's another thing to debate someone who just doesn't listen. I consider you to be of the latter. Sorry. :(

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Totally true...I think all 11 year olds should be able to drink, vote, drive cars, have jobs, and pay taxes. It's just too bad the rest of the world would think we were f'ing crazy.
Sadly, I never said I deserved these rights as an 11 year old. I just said I paid attention. Stop making huge accusations, that are undeniably not true.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Ahh, spoken like a true Liberal...good for you.
I was mocking George W. Bush for missing his medical check up, which is why he didn’t go to Vietnam. Oh and if you would refrain from using the word pussy…it’s not very mature of you.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
There is no debating with you, and trust me, it's not because you're "on target". It's one thing to debate a liberal, and it's another thing to debate someone who just doesn't listen. I consider you to be of the latter. Sorry. :(
If there is no debating me why did you do so in the John Kerry thread? Why do you continue to post replies to me, if you don’t think I’m not efficient at debate? If I’m so ill-informed don’t bother replying to me or debating me.

Again, either debate the issues, or be quiet. You just dance around the issues, claim I’m not a good debater, I’m too young, too liberal, or whatever other reasons you’ve created so you don’t have to debate me. Sorry most people I’ve talked to outside this forum don’t buy your BS...and neither do I.

I was mocking George W. Bush for missing his medical check up, which is why he didn’t go to Vietnam. Oh and if you would refrain from using the word pussy…it’s not very mature of you.

I know that, and my original statement still stands. George Bush put in service time, even if you don't want to recognize it as such. Believe what you will...

BTW, If the word pussy offends you, then I'll have you know that seeing gays kiss in public offends me...remove the avatar, and I'll stop using the word pussy.

Sorry most people I’ve talked to outside this forum don’t buy your BS...and neither do I.

That's good, because I'm not selling it to minors.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I know that, and my original statement still stands.
As does mine, and my mocking.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
BTW, If the word pussy offends you, then I'll have you know that seeing gays kiss in public offends me...remove the avatar, and I'll stop using the word pussy.
Sorry you used the words fag, and asshole before I got my avatar…which thus shows you in essence used inappropriate language before I had my avatar. And that shows that you use bad language no matter what, and me removing my avatar won’t make a difference.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
That's good, because I'm not selling it to minors.
I don’t really understand what you are trying to convey, but the people I’ve told are not all minors.

Why is it that people become more and more of an ass the longer they stay on this forum?

trav - you obviosly don't understand how a bill gets into law. Let me explain this to you.

First it has to be proposed by a senator or a committe of them. Then it gets passed around to other committess and they add things to it. Then it goes to the floor of the house and they add things to it. Then it goes to the floor of the senate and they add things to it. So by the time it gets to being voted on it is nothing like it started out to be.

For example. A bill starts out as a tax break for Diary farmers, then someone adds a change to immigration law to it, then another senator adds some appropriations for new tanks to it, then someone else adds some relieve on taxes to the tabacco industry to it, then someone else adds some FDA rulings to it. By the time it gets voted on it is a conglomeration of many things.

What the bush crime family did is take every bill Kerry ever voted against that had even a tiny bit of miliary stuff in it and listed it as "a vote againt the military". So if he voted aginst the above refernced bill because he didn't agree with tax breaks for tabacco industries or looser immigration laws or FDA changes then tthe bush crime family counted it as a vote against the miliary.

Find a list of the bills he voted against. Then find the ENTIRE bill (not just ther part the crime family feeds you, but the whole thing) and see what kind of crap you are being fed.

Yumm, that stuff takes good!

Originally posted by The Praetorian
BTW, If the word pussy offends you, then I'll have you know that seeing gays kiss in public offends me...remove the avatar, and I'll stop using the word pussy.
Pussy = insult.

Avatar of guys kissing = an avatar. Of guys kissing. Used by a bisexual guy. Not meant to be insulting at all.

They are not the same thing.

Funny how this Avatar is okay to be used around this forum.

Plus, the guys in the avatar are damn sexy. :D

I find the idea of two men together to be quite exciting. Male on male porn is the best! Does that surprise you that a woman would say that? It shouldn't, most of you guys find woman on woman action to be hot.

Men don't have a monoply on strange sexual appetites. You'll find that out as you grow older.

I don’t really understand what you are trying to convey, but the people I’ve told are not all minors.

You said you're not BUYING my BS, so I said good, because I'm not selling it to minors. Get it now???

I know...you tattled to Vilepagan and he wrote me a lengthy PM telling me why he thought the message I sent to you was inappropriate. Silly me, I thought a Private Message was private, and didn't expect a 44 year-old to contact me over something I sent to you personally. Most people on this forum probably hate me, and that's ok...I don't really care. I'm just here to argue with well-informed teenagers, I guess.

Good Day to you, Overdose.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
You said you're not BUYING my BS, so I said good, because I'm not selling it to minors. Get it now???
Thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by The Praetorian
I know...you tattled to Vilepagan and he wrote me a lengthy PM telling me why he thought the message I sent to you was inappropriate.
It was, and about 5 other people agree with me. If you send a hateful PM, don’t expect it to be privte.


Originally posted by The Praetorian
Silly me, I thought a Private Message was private, and didn't expect a 44 year-old to contact me over something I sent to you personally.
Again what do you expect when you insult someone? For them to stay quiet about it? You’re more delirious then I thought!

Originally posted by The Praetorian
Good Day to you, Overdose.
Good day to you to!

Thread going nowhere...closing before the flame war erupts...