Since so many people have been attacking John Kerry...

Bush......

Well for starters he didn’t win the popular vote in America. Which means the majority of American wanted Al Gore as our President. But that’s beside the point.

George Bush has totally destroyed our job programs in America. He has lost over 3.3 million jobs. He has outsourced many of them overseas so his companies (that donate to him) won’t have to pay as much for workers. Most of the jobs he has “gained” back, are the ones he’s already lost. Either that or they are jobs that consist of burger flippers. Overall, he has a lot of time to go before he can improve our jobless rate. Yes, he’s gaining a few jobs here and there, but nothing compared to what he’s lost already.

On the environment George Bush has cut almost all environmental programs, and has made drilling in Alaska a priority. He has cut almost all clean air and forest protection programs. On the environment George Bush has been nothing but a hard core Right Winger who has no respect for nature.

Now lets talk about the deficit. George Bush has given us a deficit that is going to be up to 5 trillion dollars. It’s going to take years to work this off, and it will be paid out of our tax dollars. This is the largest deficit since the great depression. If that isn’t reckless, I don’t know what is.

In terms of education George Bush has under funded No Child Left Behind by billions of dollars. He promised to fund this act, he set in place, and he’s done nothing. It’s a failed attempt of George Bush to try and give us a better education.

On health care the Bush Administration has raised costs, and millions more Americans are without health insurance. What does that tell you about President Bush? Maybe it’s that he just doesn’t care about us.

George Bush set in the Patriot Act. It allows our Government to look at our computer, library, and any records of our activity they want. They can even arrest us for suspension of “terrorism”, give us no lawyer, no trail, and no reason, and lock us in jail. George Bush being the great un-American at work.

Iraq War? Was Saddam a threat to America, in regards to Weapons of Mass Destruction? I’ve clearly stated my position on this. I’m willing to go through the entire process again.

According to the United Nations, Saddam disarmed his weapons programs in 1994. When Blix (leader of the UN inspectors) came out and said, “President Bush didn’t have enough evidence to launch war against Iraq” Which concludes that, the basis for this war, did not have solid facts. David Kay (other UN inspector leader) also came out many times and reported that Iraq/Saddam had no weapons. It was obvious that Saddam did indeed disarm his weapons factories and that he was not a threat. But I’m still waiting to see these weapons…

Which is proven, when in 2001, Colin Powell says, “He is not involved in weapons programs and he is unable to attack his neighbors” and Ms. Rice says, “We are able to keep arms from him, and they cannot be rebuilt” all documented on video. While it’s ironic, the CIA found many “factual inaccuracies” on the WMD report the senate was given. Which thus shows, our information regarding the threat, was unsupported.

A report from U.N. weapons inspectors to be released today says they now believe there were no weapons of mass destruction of any significance in Iraq after 1994, according to two U.N. diplomats who have seen the document.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0302-07.htm

And…

The United Nations' former chief weapons inspector Hans Blix has said Iraq probably destroyed all of its weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) more than a decade ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3117558.stm

As far as Saddam’s connection to terrorism is concerned, it’s not that much of a concern. We have the 9/11 Panel coming out and saying Pakistan and Iran are far more linked to terrorism then Iraq. Which means, if we want to be launching war against people based on their ties to terrorism, we should be in those countries first and foremost. The 9/11 Panel also came out and said his ties to Osama Bin Laden are hardly supported and that he has no connection to the 9/11 attacks. Basically this means, his terrorism activates are not a huge “issue” for America.
To attack him based on him being a murderous pig, is a valid argument. But is it the time and or place for us to be liberating people around the world? While terrorism is growing and becoming a major issue for America. If we truly want to “help” people around the world, try liberating almost all of Africa from aids, and being stoned to death. Try the cruelties there, and in other countries around the world. It’s silly to assume we need to be liberating the Iraqi’s, when this is a war on Terrorism, not mass murderers.

*yawns*

od....i can do the same about kerry's record....i just dont have the time to type it all out

I'm sure you can....

Originally posted by Overdose
I'm sure you can....

od...whcih liberal web site did you copy that from?

I doubt if you can do the same thing with Kerry's record, if only because Kerry has never been president. Personally, I don't know much about Kerry, but I think that we should give him a try. We cannot possibly sink lower than Dubya.

Originally posted by DarkFantasy96
I doubt if you can do the same thing with Kerry's record, if only because Kerry has never been president. Personally, I don't know much about Kerry, but I think that we should give him a try. We cannot possibly sink lower than Dubya.

you d be surpsrised...and yes you can. he has been a politician for 20 years...there are a lot of bad quotes and votes he has done..."we cannot stop communism all over the world"

*sigh* Like I said before, Kerry may not be all that great, but we've no place to go but up!

Originally posted by Overdose
Since so many people have been attacking John Kerry...

Bush......

Well for starters he didn’t win the popular vote in America. Which means the majority of American wanted Al Gore as our President. But that’s beside the point.

since when did the majority mean anything to the pro gay marriage crowd? A majority of americans are against gay marriage. either get together and vote out the electoral college or get one of your liberal stooge judges to rule it unconstitutional.

Originally posted by Overdose
George Bush has totally destroyed our job programs in America. He has lost over 3.3 million jobs. He has outsourced many of them overseas so his companies (that donate to him) won’t have to pay as much for workers. Most of the jobs he has “gained” back, are the ones he’s already lost. Either that or they are jobs that consist of burger flippers. Overall, he has a lot of time to go before he can improve our jobless rate. Yes, he’s gaining a few jobs here and there, but nothing compared to what he’s lost already.

9-11 itself was the cause of the loss of millions of jobs. that is never part of your assuredly well though out calculations. And if you lose 3 million jobs, wouldnt it make sense you had to get 3 million back before you could start adding to the pre 3 million loss numbers? And your burger fliping jab is childish and ill informed. even with the economy doing very well you play it off as a few jobs here and there.

Originally posted by Overdose
On the environment George Bush has cut almost all environmental programs, and has made drilling in Alaska a priority. He has cut almost all clean air and forest protection programs. On the environment George Bush has been nothing but a Right Winger who has no respect for nature.

before clinton left office he instated a bunch of impossible environmental standards. things he knewe could never be met. it is called a political land mine overdose. he knew bush would have to repeal them, and look bad doing it, then idiots like you would but right into it and start blathering about poison water. As far as drilling in alaska goes, anyone who pisses and moans about dependence on foreign oil and drilling in alaska, or anywhere else for that matter needs to shut the hell up. you can talk alternative sources till your blue in the face, it doesnt change the fact we run on oil and need it now. any attempt at self reliance is shot down by the left, who at the same time complain about foreign dependence. maek up your damn minds.


Originally posted by Overdose
Now lets talk about the deficit. George Bush has given us a deficit that is going to be up to 5 trillion dollars. It’s going to take years to work this off, and it will be paid out of our tax dollars. This is the largest deficit since the great depression. If that isn’t reckless, I don’t know what is.

I dont like having a deficit either, but seriously, when we had a surplus or we had a deficit, I saw no difference. its a number, nothing more. If we have a deficit we are spending to much, if we have a surplus we are taxing to much, pick your poison. Unless you are a government budget analyst or a presidential candidate, its very unlikey any size deficit or surplus will have any effect on your life.

Originally posted by Overdose
In terms of education George Bush has under funded No Child Left Behind by billions of dollars. He promised to fund this act, he set in place, and he’s done nothing. It’s a failed attempt of George Bush to try and give us a better education.

the education budget is bigger then it has ever been and gets more and more blaoted every year. throwing money at it wont solve anyhting, that is a fact. if 700 some odd billion dollars a year isnt enough do you honestly thing billions more will suddenly make everything better? Its not at the presidents level, its at the administrator level. there is to much beauracracy.

Originally posted by Overdose
On health care the Bush Administration has raised costs, and millions more Americans are without health insurance. What does that tell you about President Bush? Maybe it’s that he just doesn’t care about us.

since when is it the presidents responsibility to make sure you have health insurance? since when is it a "right" to have health insurance? it isnt. if you get shot in the stomach you willg et treatment, period. and saying that bush has raised costs is stupid. my cost go up every year no matter who is in office. stop with the fucking bullshit already.

Originally posted by Overdose
George Bush set in the Patriot Act. It allows our Government to look at our computer, library, and any records of our activity they want. They can even arrest us for suspension of “terrorism”, give us no lawyer, no trail, and no reason, and lock us in jail. George Bush being the great un-American at work.

I am still waiting for you to tell me what you cant do now that you could do before the P.A. what freedoms have you lost? none. you simply parrot the leftist rhetoric without even stopping to consider what the hell it is. for all you know the patriot act is the reason we havent been hit since 9-11. when you or someone you know gets thrown in jail forever for no reason you let me know.


Originally posted by Overdose
Iraq War? Was Saddam a threat to America, in regards to Weapons of Mass Destruction? I’ve clearly stated my position on this. I’m willing to go through the entire process again.

According to the United Nations, Saddam disarmed his weapons programs in 1994. When Blix (leader of the UN inspectors) came out and said, “President Bush didn’t have enough evidence to launch war against Iraq” Which concludes that, the basis for this war, did not have solid facts. David Kay (other UN inspector leader) also came out many times and reported that Iraq/Saddam had no weapons. It was obvious that Saddam did indeed disarm his weapons factories and that he was not a threat. But I’m still waiting to see these weapons…

Which is proven, when in 2001, Colin Powell says, “He is not involved in weapons programs and he is unable to attack his neighbors” and Ms. Rice says, “We are able to keep arms from him, and they cannot be rebuilt” all documented on video. While it’s ironic, the CIA found many “factual inaccuracies” on the WMD report the senate was given. Which thus shows, our information regarding the threat, was unsupported.

A report from U.N. weapons inspectors to be released today says they now believe there were no weapons of mass destruction of any significance in Iraq after 1994, according to two U.N. diplomats who have seen the document.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0302-07.htm

And…

The United Nations' former chief weapons inspector Hans Blix has said Iraq probably destroyed all of its weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) more than a decade ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3117558.stm

As far as Saddam’s connection to terrorism is concerned, it’s not that much of a concern. We have the 9/11 Panel coming out and saying Pakistan and Iran are far more linked to terrorism then Iraq. Which means, if we want to be launching war against people based on their ties to terrorism, we should be in those countries first and foremost. The 9/11 Panel also came out and said his ties to Osama Bin Laden are hardly supported and that he has no connection to the 9/11 attacks. Basically this means, his terrorism activates are not a huge “issue” for America.
To attack him based on him being a murderous pig, is a valid argument. But is it the time and or place for us to be liberating people around the world? While terrorism is growing and becoming a major issue for America. If we truly want to “help” people around the world, try liberating almost all of Africa from aids, and being stoned to death. Try the cruelties there, and in other countries around the world. It’s silly to assume we need to be liberating the Iraqi’s, when this is a war on Terrorism, not mass murderers.

like you said, this has been beaten to death. You think saddam should still be in power, I am glad he is in a cell eating muffins awaiting his imminenet execution.

Originally posted by Travh20
since when did the majority mean anything to the pro gay marriage crowd?
Issues and Presidential races are far different Trav. The majority of Americans do not get to dictate the minority in our laws in our country. But the majority does get to choose who we have for President. They are far different, and if you can’t see that, I’m greatly sorry.

Originally posted by Travh20
A majority of americans are against gay marriage.
Yes, and the Supreme Court gets to decide what is right or wrong in terms of issues like this, not the majority. In terms of who gets to run our country, the majority gets to have the override.

Originally posted by Travh20
9-11 itself was the cause of the loss of millions of jobs.
Or that he has outsourced many jobs overseas.

Originally posted by Travh20
And your burger fliping jab is childish and ill informed. even with the economy doing very well you play it off as a few jobs here and there.
The jobs that were lost, are being slightly gained back. It’s said that the new jobs are 9,000 dollars less then the original job they lost. We are gaining back jobs that are worse then the original job.
Originally posted by Travh20
before clinton left office he instated a bunch of impossible environmental standards.
Care to give an example Trav?

Originally posted by Travh20
he knew bush would have to repeal them, and look bad doing it, then idiots like you would but right into it and start blathering about poison water.
Our Environmental programs have been cut, almost completely. Whether or not, George Bush did not have to go to the extremes lengths he did. Our Environmental laws are all cut, and it’s almost a free for all.

Originally posted by Travh20
As far as drilling in alaska goes, anyone who pisses and moans about dependence on foreign oil and drilling in alaska, or anywhere else for that matter needs to shut the hell up.
If you think six months of oil is worth it Trav, go for it.

Originally posted by Travh20
I dont like having a deficit either, but seriously, when we had a surplus or we had a deficit, I saw no difference.
In a surplus there is no problem. George Bush got as deficit, and is not doing anything about it. And you don’t have to do anything when you have a surplus. And the way to get rid of the deficit is to increase taxes, something George Bush is ignoring. So of course you don’t see a difference.

Originally posted by Travh20
the education budget is bigger then it has ever been and gets more and more blaoted every year.
No, he has under funded Education, especially No Child Left Behind.

Originally posted by Travh20
since when is it the presidents responsibility to make sure you have health insurance?
I would hope the President would care about his citizens health.

Originally posted by Travh20
since when is it a "right" to have health insurance? it isnt.
It should be. He has raised the costs of health insurance, which is making it harder for Americans to get health insurance. He is ignoring the issue that millions more Americans lost health insurance, and is just raising the costs.

Originally posted by Travh20
for all you know the patriot act is the reason we havent been hit since 9-11. when you or someone you know gets thrown in jail forever for no reason you let me know.
Well I’m glad you feel taking away our civil liberties is okay.

Moderators,

Please....

Move all of these threads about Bush and Kerry to the US Presidential Forum....please!

Or the "Official Bush Bashing Thread."

Originally posted by Overdose
Issues and Presidential races are far different Trav. The majority of Americans do not get to dictate the minority in our laws in our country. But the majority does get to choose who we have for President. They are far different, and if you can’t see that, I’m greatly sorry.


Yes, and the Supreme Court gets to decide what is right or wrong in terms of issues like this, not the majority. In terms of who gets to run our country, the majority gets to have the override.

the majority does not get to choose who is president, the electoral college does, and it was set up for that reason. for someone so worried about the majority dictating to the minority you sure seem to hate the electoral college, I guess because you lost because of it. and another thing, you cried and said the supreme court handed bush the presidency against the wishs of the majority of americans, but I am sure you will not say a word when they allow gay marriage agasint the wishs of the majority of americans.


Originally posted by Overdose
r that he has outsourced many jobs overseas.


The jobs that were lost, are being slightly gained back. It’s said that the new jobs are 9,000 dollars less then the original job they lost. We are gaining back jobs that are worse then the original job.

Yes, president Bush is the first president to be in office when jobs were "outsourced", grow up overdose. and why am I not suprised that you find a way to criticize job growth. "oh ya, thre are jobs, but they are not good jobs" WTF is your problem? Its like Kerry in his speech last night when he said "American workers ought to be paid more then they are worth." I was rolling.

Originally posted by Overdose
Care to give an example Trav?


Our Environmental programs have been cut, almost completely. Whether or not, George Bush did not have to go to the extremes lengths he did. Our Environmental laws are all cut, and it’s almost a free for all.

Remember when the previous administration set a ridiculous standard for arsenic in the drinking water that went into effect January 22, 2001? the standard went from 50 PPB to 10 PPB, a major drop, and an almost impossible standard to implement. It woul dcost billions of dollars and be a massive undertaking. The old standard had been in place since the 40's. Now it seemed very strange that after 8 years of inaction on such an imprtant issue that clinton decided the innaguration day to start the new standard. If it was so important why didnt he do it his first year? I will tell you why. He knew Bush would be forced to not carry it out, and he knew it would look bad. Soon cry of Bush poisoning the drinking water were heard from the DNC. It was as if he were adding more arsenic to the water.


Originally posted by Overdose
If you think six months of oil is worth it Trav, go for it.

another lie you choose to believe. Only 6 months of oil in alaska? WTF? there are oil wells outside of Bakersfield that have been gong fo decades. There is LOTS of oil there. IF you stopped all other sources of oil and used only the oil from that one field for all US consumption tehn it may last 6 months, but that isnt what the plan is. I swear the alarmist liberals believe everything they are told.


Originally posted by Overdose
In a surplus there is no problem. George Bush got as deficit, and is not doing anything about it. And you don’t have to do anything when you have a surplus. And the way to get rid of the deficit is to increase taxes, something George Bush is ignoring. So of course you don’t see a difference. .

tell me Alan greenspan, where do you suppose the money from a surplus comes from? it comes from our pockets. OK, maybe not yours, but working americans. The way you are so quick to call for raising taxes shows you know nothing of earning your way in life. Like I said, a deficit or a surplus has no meaning to much of anyone in america. sure, it is made out to be the biggest crises in history but deficits come and deficits go. maybe we need to cut a fe wof our programs to get back in teh black, ever think of that? or are you jsut for raising taxes?


Originally posted by Overdose
No, he has under funded Education, especially No Child Left Behind.

he may have, but he never should of propsed it in the first place, he should have proposed cutting the education department in half.


Originally posted by Overdose
I would hope the President would care about his citizens health.
it should be. He has raised the costs of health insurance, which is making it harder for Americans to get health insurance. He is ignoring the issue that millions more Americans lost health insurance, and is just raising the costs.

there you go again with "he raised costs". you are a blundering follower if I ever saw one. how did george bush "raise costs" my costs have raised evry year no matter who is in office. its just another case of blaming everything on bush. your costs go up? it must be bush. you dont pass a class? must be not enough money in education, thanks to bush. you are a dumbass if you believe all that shit.


Originally posted by Overdose
Well I’m glad you feel taking away our civil liberties is okay.

ya, keep your head down and keep running with that one overdose. nevermnd you cant name a civil liberty you have lost or cant comprehend that the patriot act may be the reason we havent been hit again. all common sense goes in one ear out the other with you. if your told your living in nazi germany since the patriot act, you really are.

deja vu anyone?

deja vu anyone?

Well Evil, here's how OD works the debate game: 1) Make no concessions. 2) Argue the same points in repetition. 3) Recognize any bump in the road as Bush's fault. i.e. healthcare, education, bad weather, etc. 4) Dismiss facts pertinent to "the other side" as right wing propaganda even if they’re totally backed up. 5) Draw connections between Bush and Al Qaeda, while not failing to mention circumstantial evidence implicating Cheney and Halliburton. 6) Take a portion of a complete sentence written by the conservative out of context so you can quote it as being factual or farcical (depends on the point he wishes to "prove"). This also allows him the ability to quickly insert words into the mouths of people who never said them in the first place. (I assume Michael Moore taught him this tactic) 7) Wholeheartedly believe anything the left feeds you as fact, even if it’s ridiculously off base. 8) Praise Kerry's 4 months in Vietnam while blindly calling Bush a deserter for disappearing for 30 days. 9) Repeat the entire process of the debate game…

Yes, debating him does take a while, and unfortunately, it's very repetitious… :(

you forgot: cast aside as totally ridiculous any talk that al qeada and iraq may have had enough in common to see a working relationship beneficial to one another, whilea the the same time cling ot the crazy idea that we rushed the bin laden family out of the country so as to keep them quiet for some as of yet unspecified reason.

Nice reply to my whole new post. :) We've already debated that topic Trav, I think you were the one who failed to respond to my last post on that thread.

Originally posted by Travh20
the majority does not get to choose who is president, the electoral college does, and it was set up for that reason.
So if a state goes 49% for Kerry and 51% for Bush, Bush gets the whole entire state? And almost half of the states votes are thrown away…even though it was about 50/50…which makes no sense.

Originally posted by Travh20
for someone so worried about the majority dictating to the minority you sure seem to hate the electoral college, I guess because you lost because of it.
When the majority wants to dictate the minority’s rights, I do worry. In terms of the Presidency I don’t worry because they are completely different issues.

Originally posted by Travh20
and another thing, you cried and said the supreme court handed bush the presidency against the wishs of the majority of americans, but I am sure you will not say a word when they allow gay marriage agasint the wishs of the majority of americans.
I think they were stopping the re-count, not dealing with the Constitution like the gay marriage law would be. Again they are far different, and not comparable.

Originally posted by Travh20
Yes, president Bush is the first president to be in office when jobs were "outsourced", grow up overdose.
Funny you say 9/11 caused us to lose so many jobs, yet George Bush is so smart to make us lose even more by shipping them out over-seas, even though 9/11 happened. Now that doesn’t seem very smart does it?

Originally posted by Travh20
It woul dcost billions of dollars and be a massive undertaking.
Well, if it would have cost money…for something good, then I’m all for it. Although I don’t pay taxes and I don’t know…but it wasn’t impossible to meet. The reason it was, was because Bush gave us a deficit of 500 billion dollars and because of him we couldn’t pay for this.

Originally posted by Travh20
Only 6 months of oil in alaska?
I would suggest you do more research on the issue.

Originally posted by Travh20
Like I said, a deficit or a surplus has no meaning to much of anyone in america.
When you have surplus you don’t need to raise taxes. When you have deficit you do. George Bush won’t raise taxes, which is why our deficit has increased. But you don’t see the difference because…

Surplus=no higher taxes or extra pay to the Government
Deficit=should be higher taxes, but Bush won’t do that…
Which concludes no difference.

Originally posted by Travh20
but he never should of propsed it in the first place, he should have proposed cutting the education department in half.
Ummm, right? He under-funded our Education system and No Child Left Behind, period.

Originally posted by Travh20
nevermnd you cant name a civil liberty you have lost or cant comprehend that the patriot act may be the reason we havent been hit again.
They can arrest you for no reason, throw you in jail, and never give you a lawyer. I think that’s enough for me.

thats it, i am done with this twerp. he is so blinded by whatever it is that makes him a complety stooge for the democrtic party, be it his parents, frindds, micheal moore, whatever. I cant deal with the excrutiatingly mundane replys any longer. Your right overdose, george bush needs to go. John kerry will come in and save us all from the clutchs of hell. maybe he can nominate all his boatmates for his cabinet positions, after all, who esle is more qualified to run the country then a swift boat crew?

Alright, fair enough Trav. :flowers:

Originally posted by no moore please
*yawns*

od....i can do the same about kerry's record....i just dont have the time to type it all out

EXACTALLY, two peoples records to balance out, we are down to the better of (2 ) evils, as they say. I only feel that we need to get done what we started. And BUSH administration has the answers to this work. I also always mention, that he has been the President, that has had to deal with the aftermath of 9-11, no other President has had such tremendous issues during there administration. And how dare everone always claim [i] job lost, associated by BUSH and not by the association of the aftermath of 9-11 ?????????IT destoyed our economy to a point!!

Overdose, I do have respect for your POSTS, you seem very together with your thoughts, just PLEASE take the reins of all that has happened in the last 4 years and show us what you can do with all the intense issues we have had at hand!! I want to see what you would have done different !!!!!

I wouldn't have gone into Iraq...
I wouldn't have outsourced our jobs...
I would have funded no child left behind...

It's very simple things, that George Bush didn't or did do that were wrong.

I still dont see what is so bad about outsourcing. It seems fair to me. The person who can work for less money and/or do a better job ought to get it. I am against taxing companies for outsourcing. I would take a look at the Japanese economy. They had all of these tarrifs to protect themselves, other countries got pissed off, and their economy was decimated, and is only recently recovering.

And i dont see what is so freakin bad about iraq. We liberated a country, ousted an insane dictator, and helped make the world a better place, all with minimal casualties. True, there were no WMD's but i dont think that is enough to make the whole trip a complete failure.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
I still dont see what is so bad about outsourcing. It seems fair to me.
Fair? So someone who has worked at that job for years, is now laid off to have his or her job shipped to India . That’s fair? It doesn't seem fair what-so-ever. Especially since his family will suffer the consequences of having no financial income from that person.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
We liberated a country, ousted an insane dictator
So, what about the other dictators in the world? And we liberated Iraq? Really? That’s why there are car bombings happening daily...and chaos is still apparent in Iraq...while the officals who are going to lead their country are being picked off one by one.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
and helped make the world a better place
Actually the 2003 Terror Report showed a dramatic increase in terrorism worldwide. The world is a much worse place now that he is gone...

Originally posted by Evil Homer
all with minimal casualties
10,000 Iraqi’s minimal?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
True, there were no WMD's
You mean the first reason we went into Iraq, was false? Well that’s great to know...

What about the guy in india who needs to feed his family. It doesnt seem fair that he should be denied a job just because someone else who is less qualified also wants it.

Second, those dictators. Well, we'll burn those bridges when we come to them. And, when a country is liberated, or there is a change in government, chaos reigns. That's just the way it is. Not everyone wants things to happen peacefully.

Fine, your logic is undenyable. Lets put saddam back in. Then he can tell everyone to call off their attacks. Then everything will be as right as rain.

Fourth, we didn't kill all of those iraqi's on purpose. Some were used as human shields, decoys, and as bombs by the enemy. And i was refering to casualties on our side of the fight.

Finally, no need to get mean. And, if you look at my post, what im saying is that even though it turns out our reasoning was false, it doesnt mean that the whole operation was a failure.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
What about the guy in india who needs to feed his family. It doesnt seem fair that he should be denied a job just because someone else who is less qualified also wants it.

Well, the person in America had the job first. Yes, it is unfair that the guy in India can't have the job. But we aren't exactly treating the Indian very fairly, either. He has to work in sickening conditions for little pay and ultimately, the entire experience is just plain degrading. Not to mention, who the hell are we to step into their economy? The job is rightfully the American's and we're rewarding companies for shipping it overseas. Shouldn't we put our citizens first? Have you ever heard the term the race to the bottom? Look into it.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Second, those dictators. Well, we'll burn those bridges when we come to them. And, when a country is liberated, or there is a change in government, chaos reigns. That's just the way it is. Not everyone wants things to happen peacefully.

Who said it was our role to step in and eradicate evil dictators for other countries? Don't you think our first priority should be eliminating terrorism? But then again, the entire term War on Terrorism is bull itself, but that can be saved for another thread... Anyhow, Iraq really is not that much better off.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Fine, your logic is undenyable. Lets put saddam back in. Then he can tell everyone to call off their attacks. Then everything will be as right as rain.

The officials that we install are being shot at and terrorized, the citizens are dying of uranium and mercury poisoning, many of the Iraqi newborns are deformed, the hospitals are destroyed and unsophisticated because of our bombings, carbombings and suicide bombers terrorize the every day lives of Iraqis... Honestly, I don't see how Iraq is better off. Sure, Saddam is gone, but replaced with a new form of terror. I don't think Saddam needs to be put back in. We just should never have offset their lives in the first place.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Fourth, we didn't kill all of those iraqi's on purpose. Some were used as human shields, decoys, and as bombs by the enemy. And i was refering to casualties on our side of the fight.

Yep, ooops, we accidentally destroyed harmless villages because we thought they were terrorist rallying points. My bad! A body count of 10, 000 is unacceptable. You can't just step into a foreign country, kill of the populace (which by the way is about 51% people under the age of 18) and not expect them to revolt.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Finally, no need to get mean. And, if you look at my post, what im saying is that even though it turns out our reasoning was false, it doesnt mean that the whole operation was a failure.

Sure, no need to get mean. But neither of us see the strong points of this operation.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
What about the guy in india who needs to feed his family. It doesnt seem fair that he should be denied a job just because someone else who is less qualified also wants it.
What makes you seem so sure the person in India will get the rightful pay? The reason jobs are shipped overseas is because it's less expensive, and that in return makes our country fail in terms of jobs and our citizens having a livable life. We should be putting our citizens above other countries. I thought that was apart of the Right Wing ideology?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Second, those dictators. Well, we'll burn those bridges when we come to them. And, when a country is liberated, or there is a change in government, chaos reigns. That's just the way it is. Not everyone wants things to happen peacefully.
Well, if you think we can afford to get rid of the other dictators, and have the efficient amount of troops, then go for it. But our deficit is so gigantic, and we don't even have enough troops in Iraq. Which thus concludes we cannot go after other dictators, for we don’t have the man-power or the funding. And again, this is a war on terror, not mass murderers.

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Fine, your logic is undenyable. Lets put saddam back in. Then he can tell everyone to call off their attacks. Then everything will be as right as rain.
Well as my cousin pointed out Iraq isn't that much better off...I don’t think I need to be repetitive do I?

Originally posted by Evil Homer
Fourth, we didn't kill all of those iraqi's on purpose. Some were used as human shields, decoys, and as bombs by the enemy. And i was refering to casualties on our side of the fight.
We actually hit a lot of innocent targets, that were not needed. Hospitals and homes were bombed...and yet, we didn't do this on purpose...it was just an accident.

oh no! now i got 2 fronts to fight! i cant hold em off any longer! :eek: :D

Simple Evil Homer. There is only one just copying the other one. Just like a captian and the parrot pet. Have you two ever been to a Major city in Texas. Probly never been to a southern state or traveled much outside of Oregon, have you. Have you ever looked around and see who actually does most of the manual labor or low wage jobs. Have you ever seen who is mainly employed by the government. I quess you never read the want adds in the news paper either. Can you speak spanish to get a job just because you have to compete with hispanics? Have you ever applied for a job to find out that you have been turned down because you are a white male and dont speak two languages. I think you two need to look around a bit. Job outsoucing is here in the states also. The employer can pay a legal alien a lower wage and they will accept it. Will you work in a job that is less paying than the one you had just to feed your family?

Originally posted by big worm
Simple Evil Homer. There is only one just copying the other one.
Or maybe it’s just because we have similar view points, that many liberals share.

Originally posted by big worm
Probly never been to a southern state or traveled much outside of Oregon, have you.
I went to Kentucky twice, Colorado, Ohio, Washington, California 8 times, Hawaii, and Canada. I will also be going to Florida in a few months. I would consider myself well traveled for a 15 year old, thank-you-very much.

Originally posted by big worm
Have you ever looked around and see who actually does most of the manual labor or low wage jobs.
If you would like to generalize the majority working these jobs are the minorities…who are mostly employed by white business owners.

Originally posted by big worm
I quess you never read the want adds in the news paper either.
No, trust me, I read the paper every day…unlike our President.

Originally posted by big worm
Can you speak spanish to get a job just because you have to compete with hispanics?
I would suggest you take your complaints to the white men who hire the Hispanics, and thus make it harder for you to get a job.

Originally posted by big worm
Have you ever applied for a job to find out that you have been turned down because you are a white male and dont speak two languages.
There is no official language in America, actually. It’s a common misconception, and that’s why we have to print everything in many different languages. So actually, it’s perfectly okay in my book to learn other languages if you want the job so badly.

Originally posted by big worm
Job outsoucing is here in the states also.
Why is it bad to give the jobs to the minorities, who usually, offer to work for less? Yes, some are illegal immigrants…but it’s not their fault they are being hired. It’s the white business owners who make the final decision…usually knowing they are illegal immigrants.

You're in for a rude awakening in about 8 years when you finally hit the job market. Better prepare yourself.

Originally posted by es347fan
You're in for a rude awakening in about 8 years when you finally hit the job market. Better prepare yourself.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, !!!!!!!

Originally posted by es347fan
You're in for a rude awakening in about 8 years when you finally hit the job market. Better prepare yourself.

Never denied I won’t, but for your information I have had a job. It’s not your typical job, but they were asking people to go door to door and sell newspapers for our local paper. They had to pick between a few teenagers, some of which could speak Spanish, and they ended up picking me, and a few other kids. Only one spoke another language.

Again, I’m not denying you know more about the real world…but honestly, I think I’ve seen, and been to a lot of places and I have had a job...which is why I find it highly ironic how everyone dismisses my opinions because of the quote little experience I’ve had in the world. Yet you don’t care to back anything up…

Originally posted by big worm
Simple Evil Homer. There is only one just copying the other one. Just like a captian and the parrot pet.

Who said anyone was copying anyone else? My cousin and I have a lot in common. If you had ever taken a moment to get to know either of us, you'd already know this. But I would not want to waste time doing that with you, anyway.

Originally posted by big worm
Have you two ever been to a Major city in Texas. Probly never been to a southern state or traveled much outside of Oregon, have you. Have you ever looked around and see who actually does most of the manual labor or low wage jobs. Have you ever seen who is mainly employed by the government. I quess you never read the want adds in the news paper either. Can you speak spanish to get a job just because you have to compete with hispanics? Have you ever applied for a job to find out that you have been turned down because you are a white male and dont speak two languages. I think you two need to look around a bit. Job outsoucing is here in the states also. The employer can pay a legal alien a lower wage and they will accept it. Will you work in a job that is less paying than the one you had just to feed your family?

Actually, Worm, both my parents are white and I've seen them struggling to keep their jobs because of the Affirmative Action plan, encouraging the big businesses to employ minorities. It's not something that just occurs in your little podunk town in Texas. But then again... who was it that came up with this idea? Oh, yeah! It was THE REPUBLICANS. Thank Ronald Reagan and George Bush senior for that one, fellas. Don't act as though just because I'm under 18, I'm ignorant, because I too have seen it. I guess I fail to see the good that comes from outsourcing our jobs to foreign countries. The only thing I see is W. trying to gain allies for our stupid war by improving their economies, but I don't see those countries coming through on their end of the deal.

Well traveled, are you? So am I. Been to three different countries and traveled and lived all across the U.S. and even lived in a forign country for two years. Have you ever seen who actually works for government jobs.? Have you ever seen who actually works in on the farms and the orchards? Never heard of the white male minority? Heard that one from the Washington State unemployment office. You need to wake up and see what is actually going on instead of having your mentors telling you what to say. It doesn't matter if you are liberal or conservative, they both do it. And by the way, we are not the only country that out source work. You should here the Mexicans bitch about cheap chinese products and jobs lost to chinese factories. By the way, when I go to the V.A. hospital, both of the doctors i see are middle eastern desent. I belive that is a Federal Government building, not a white business owner.

Originally posted by big worm
Well traveled, are you? So am I. Been to three different countries and traveled and lived all across the U.S. and even lived in a forign country for two years.
I commend you for your well-traveled life so far. I never stated I have traveled more then you. I was simply showing, that in my 15 years, I believe I’ve traveled plenty. I think, before you make accusations you should get some information first and foremost.

Originally posted by big worm
Have you ever seen who actually works for government jobs.?
What kind of a question is this? Are you totally oblivious…or something?

Originally posted by big worm
Have you ever seen who actually works in on the farms and the orchards?
Typically minorities…because the “white” business owners higher them because they usually offer to do work for a cheaper price.

Originally posted by big worm
Never heard of the white male minority?
Thank the whites who choose to hire the minorities over the whites…

Originally posted by big worm
And by the way, we are not the only country that out source work.
Never said it was. But if jobs are being given to the minorities in America, why on earth would we want to also give them to foreigners? If the jobs are being taken away here in America, why would we ever want them to also be given over seas? That would just make it even harder for Americans to get jobs.

Ahh, the exeuberance of youth. Plenty of ideas, no mileage. You'll get there, however. Try living outside the United States for a while. You'll really appreceate the country then.

I belive i dont live in a podunk town in Texas. I belive it is actually bigger than Salem, Portland and Astoria combined. Houston is actually quite large. I have lived in Everett Washington for long time.

Originally posted by es347fan
You'll get there, however. Try living outside the United States for a while. You'll really appreceate the country then.

Never said I don’t appreciate America, I love this country and I’m grateful to live here. I’m sorry you think you can dismiss all of my ideals and thoughts because I’m apart of the youth that will lead this country in the future.
:cat:

Originally posted by big worm
I belive i dont live in a podunk town in Texas. I belive it is actually bigger than Salem, Portland and Astoria combined. Houston is actually quite large. I have lived in Everett Washington for long time.

wow, because you know, out of my entire response, that was the most important thing I mentioned.

Have you ever heard the saying, "Birds of the same feather flock together." It is not Whites that do it. Blacks, Hispanics and other minorities hire within there own race. Since you tend not to look at it that way. You would rather blame the white business owner. Ask a typical white male if they would pick apples and then see what type answer you will recieve. That would explain why there are alot of hispanics that do work in the orchards and farms. For you Daft-Gypsey, I would not find it worth knowing people that cannot think for themselves.

Overdose

I was noticing your photos over in the other threads and it appears you have a real talent for photography. Good imagination. I love those black-n-whites.

Seeing as how you're gonna be working age in a few years, you might want to consider a career in that field. Seems like a natural for you.

And seeing how you like politics and such, how about photo-journalism? Man I'd give anything to be in that field.

But it's too late for me to switch careers now -- my working days are coming rapidly to an end and all I'll be doing then is fishing, camping, hiking, horse-back riding, surfing, blading, riding the great railroads of the world, travelling and giving everyone a hard time on the forums. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

ROTF

Dop

Originally posted by big worm
It is not Whites that do it. Blacks, Hispanics and other minorities hire within there own race.
Typically it’s the whites who run most of the business in America.

Originally posted by big worm
You would rather blame the white business owner.
Yes, because he is hiring the minorities at a faster rate then the whites, according to you. So why would it be the minorities fault…?

Originally posted by big worm
That would explain why there are alot of hispanics that do work in the orchards and farms.
It’s a little thing called, if you offer a lower price, you tend to get picked more often in doing a job like you gave.

It seems to me, that Hispanics and minorities, come to this country looking for something better then what they had. Which thus makes them easier to work with, and thus makes them not demand as much…since no matter what they are getting, it is better then what they originally had. Which concludes why they usually get picked above whites.

Originally posted by big worm
For you Daft-Gypsey, I would not find it worth knowing people that cannot think for themselves.
No, it appears to me you’re afraid of an actual debate with her. But that’s okay, cover it up by questioning her train of thought, and then you can walk away feeling above it all.

Originally posted by big worm
Have you ever heard the saying, "Birds of the same feather flock together." It is not Whites that do it. Blacks, Hispanics and other minorities hire within there own race. Since you tend not to look at it that way. You would rather blame the white business owner. Ask a typical white male if they would pick apples and then see what type answer you will recieve. That would explain why there are alot of hispanics that do work in the orchards and farms. For you Daft-Gypsey, I would not find it worth knowing people that cannot think for themselves.

What do you mean it's not whites who do it? The white executives and supervisers are the ones who encourage it, because they get enormous tax breaks. I'm not saying it's completely white people who do this, but really, think about it.

And as for your last little comment there, you do not know me as a person, so step off.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
my working days are coming rapidly to an end and all I'll be doing then is fishing, camping, hiking, horse-back riding, surfing, blading, riding the great railroads of the world, travelling and giving everyone a hard time on the forums. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

ROTF

Dop

ahhh, the opprerssive American way of life strikes again. How many third world kids died so you could take your retirement in style Dop? five, maybe six thousand? :rolleyes:

I am not a democrat. But this is so simple.

No child left behind - a lie
Fulfilled his National Guard duties - a lie
Never used cocaine - a lie
Not in bed with the Saudi's - a lie
Not granting favors to big businesses - a lie
No special contracts to Halliburton - a lie
Weapons of mass destruction - a lie
Chemical weapons - a lie
Connections to Al Quida - a lie
"I am a uniter" - a lie
"god has spoken to me" - do I even need to address this ridiculous statement.

Largest deficits in a century
No school funding
Removal of civil liberties
Attacking our reproductive choices
Attacking the separation of church and state
Willfully snubbing our allies in a rush to send young Americans to their death.
"I am a war president". Conspicuously changed now to "I am a peace president".
Fighting to keep the 9-11 commission from forming
Refusing to meet with the 9-11 commission without his mouthpiece chenny at his side
Refusing to speak to 9-11 commission under oath
Refusing to allow the American people to hear what he said to the 9-11 commission
Refusing to answer questions about Halliburton connections
Refusing to release information about Halliburton connections
Going to war without a plan for peace
Going to war against most top level general's advice
Going to war on the cheap
“Mission accomplished”.
Trashing our environment in favor of big business profits

But the one that scares the hell out of me........and this is ALL ON CAMERA! On 9-11 our Mr. Bush is sitting in a classroom listening to a teacher read to children. An aide walks in, leans over and states "Mr. President, America is under attack". Bush sits there, and sits there, and sits there, for seven minutes and ten seconds. The aide comes in again and leans down and says "Mr. President, America is under attack". Finally, bush turns, looks up, smiles, and gets out of his chair.

Set you clocks for seven minutes and then just sit there and contemplate America being under attack. Feel how long it took our so called commander and chief to get his chicken shit scared frozen ass out of that chair and go find out what was happening to the country he is supposed to be the president of.

You can trash Kerry's experience all you want. But remember, before becoming president. Mr. Bush had ZERO experience in federal level politics, the senate, the house, foreign affairs, or war. He did however have a stint as governor of Texas and ran no less than six companies into financial ruin.

The lies, the secrecy, the attack on our fundamental rights, the disrespect for the declaration of independence, the ruthless and callous way he invaded and occupied a sovereign nation without clear and concise evidence that they were guilty (a fundamental principal of democracy is innocent until proven guilty - something we as a nation hold dear but Mr. bush doesn’t seem to understand).

This is a very simple choice for those who think before they vote.

Hello, newbie

I am not a democrat. But this is so simple.

*laughs*

Good moniker, by the way...for it's pretty obvious you're a leftist echo, too.

Welcome to the forum. :)

Sorry, you have me pegged wrong. I am a registered independant. I am 50 yrs old and have voted Republican in five of the last eight presidential elections.

Nice try though. lol. Just because someone sees bush for what he is does not make them a democrat.

He didnt say you were a democrat. He said you were a leftist. Nader is not a democrat, but he is a leftist. Joe Liberman is not a leftist but he is a democrat. (Sounds kinda like a SAT question doesnt it?)

Explain that to me democratic friends that called me a conservative when I voted for Reagon. They would love to hear how "leftist" I am.

It's a good thing you didn't have to spell his name to get him elected.
:)

It's a good thing I don't make my living typing. Not only am I a terrible speller, I also am a terrible typer.

But I don't think spelling and typing have much to do with being able to see a liar for what he is.