I have a theory about why the left wing socialists dislike religion so much. Its because a religious society does not need their god as much, their god being government. In the secularist/socialist world, all your needs are taken care of by he government. If your poor, yo go to the government, if your homeless you go to the government. In the old days, and to some extent these days, you went to your church. The church would feed you or give you shelter in your time of need. The church would help you back on your feet when you got down. through funds donated by its members churchs give away food and house its members in need. The church does many things for its memebers. The resaon the left hates this is becasue the less people who need them, the less power they have. organized religion is an obstacle in their path to complete power. The more people in need of the government, the more power it has. I ask you how did people survive before big government stepped in and started giving out just enough to keep its people alive and in need of government for their entire lives.

Many liberals have a deep faith in God, including our next president, John Kerry. We don't hate religion. We do, however value religious freedom. People should be able to follow any religion they want. They also have the right to be agnostic or atheist. It's the government's job to enforce the first amendment, which lets people worship as they please. It is also, however, the governments obligation not to tell ANYBODY that their religious beliefs are wrong. People are religious. The government is secular.

ya, john kerry is a real die hard catholic, thats why he is pro abortion and gay marriage and was threatened with excommunication. anyway, I didnt say liberals, isaid socialists, the real hard core liberals, thee same people who go out of their way to enforce the so called "seration of church and state". Just search the religion forum, you will see who i am talking about. These people loathe religion. sure, they put on a face like they respet it and think its so great, but if it were to dissapear overnight they would throw a party. If there are no churchs to help people, who is going to help them? the government. The government must be secular, as any reference to god is sought out and destroyed. you cant deny that there is a segment of the left who wants to rid all traces of god and religion form public vciew, period. sure, they claim to be strict constitutionalists, but then turn around and trash the one right after the fist. it is a personale thing, and they have the convience of hiding behind the constitution so as not to look like assholes who simply hate relion. "we are doing it for the country, for the good of america, we want to simply protect the constitution" bullshit. they want god and religion gone so the government is the final word in this life, and once thats acomplished they make the final word. end of story.

I apologize. I thought when you said "left-wing socialists" you were insulting liberals by calling them socialists, not directly refering to socialists. To, the government is more important than God. I don't believe in God, so he/she/it has no importance in my life. In that fashion, I don't deserve having the teachings of the church shoved down my throat by the secular government.

Who are you to challenge John Kerry's devotion to his faith? He IS a good Christian in the true meaning of the word, being Christ-like. The death penalty goes against the teahings of the catholic church as well as most if not all protestant churches (including the methodist church that Bush is a member of). I don't see people on the right critizing Bush's faith because of his support for the death penalty.

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, john kerry is a real die hard catholic, thats why he is pro abortion and gay marriage and was threatened with excommunication. anyway, I didnt say liberals, isaid socialists, the real hard core liberals, thee same people who go out of their way to enforce the so called "seration of church and state".

So, in your opinion Thomas Jefferson was a socialist.

Just search the religion forum, you will see who i am talking about. These people loathe religion. sure, they put on a face like they respet it and think its so great, but if it were to dissapear overnight they would throw a party.

Sure Trav, we say we don't hate religion but you know what we "really" think.

If there are no churchs to help people, who is going to help them? the government.

You seem to think of the government as a separate entity from the people. In this country the government is the people.

The government must be secular,

Yes it must.

as any reference to god is sought out and destroyed. you cant deny that there is a segment of the left who wants to rid all traces of god and religion form public vciew, period.

I can deny it because it's a lie.

sure, they claim to be strict constitutionalists, but then turn around and trash the one right after the fist. it is a personale thing, and they have the convience of hiding behind the constitution so as not to look like assholes who simply hate relion.

I'm sorry trav, but that statement is just incoherent.

"we are doing it for the country, for the good of america, we want to simply protect the constitution" bullshit. they want god and religion gone so the government is the final word in this life, and once thats acomplished they make the final word. end of story.

Once again Trav, you fabricate things and claim other people say or believe them. It must be nice to be able to read people's minds and know what they "really" want, or predict the future because you "know" what they would do if they had the chance.

oooh let me give it a try...

Trav, I know you always say how much of a patriot you are, and how much you support the war in Iraq, but I know that's not true. In reality, you are just saying that, while secretly building up an arms cache for an Al-Quaida cell that's living in your basement. You're really a terrorist who's just trying to lull us into a false sense of security. I know that none of this is backed up by any of your posts, and is just wild conjecture fueled by a dash of religious fervor, and a sprinkling of paranoia, but I "know" it's true, because I can read between the lines. I'm calling Ashcroft now...*picks up phone* :rolleyes:

tell me how the government has "shoved religon down your throat?" is a simple display considered "shoving down your throat". Its funny how when people complain about to much sex and violence on TV teh leftists tell them they can always turn it off or look away, but if there is a statue in a building it simply must go. it cant simply be ignored, it has to be boarded up until it can be hauled away, in case anyone eyes be burned out by accidentally glancing at it. But if there are tits and ass and vulgarity all over TV at family time then its as simple as turning it off. Dont give me this "we only want to protect the constition" crap either, because you only want to protect the parts you agree with. As soon as all the crosses and statues are gone I want to see these same people going through hell and back to allow me to keep my guns. Any gun I want too, not just the ones they approve of. Its bullshit, and not even well disguised bullshit. I can see through it like it were a broken window.

As far as bush goes, tehre are plenty of hard core christians unhappy with him. I am not a hard core christian by any strecth of the mind remind you. I am not happy with bush either, but considering all the alternatives, he is the only choice.

oh pagan, dont get me started on you again. how can you claim to have some deep respect for religion or religious people after all you have said in this forum? just 5 minutes ago yuo were trying to convince someone the bible was full of shit because it called bats birds. you had it all laid out real neat nad nice all the reasons the bible was wrong becasue of that one statement. This is just another case of disengenious liberals saying everything but at the same time saying nothing. Normal people who speak of things in such bad terms and with such venom, as you and many others do of religion, do no thave respect or any positive feelings towards what it is they speak negativly of. only a liberal could completly bash and dismantle something piece by piece and then turn around and claim to be trying to protect it.

Originally posted by Travh20
tell me how the government has "shoved religon down your throat?" is a simple display considered "shoving down your throat". Its funny how when people complain about to much sex and violence on TV teh leftists tell them they can always turn it off or look away, but if there is a statue in a building it simply must go.

The reason is because "leftists" believe in freedom of speech, and the separation of church and state. The "simple display" you are talking about is a deliberate attempt to distort the truth. You may display all the religion you want on private property, but NOT in a public building. Why is it that you refuse to grasp this simple concept?

Dont give me this "we only want to protect the constition" crap either, because you only want to protect the parts you agree with.

Another false statement based on the fact that you "know" what we want.

As soon as all the crosses and statues are gone I want to see these same people going through hell and back to allow me to keep my guns. Any gun I want too, not just the ones they approve of.

You do? You want us to take away your guns? I have to disagree with you again Trav, since I'm against gun control.

Its bullshit, and not even well disguised bullshit. I can see through it like it were a broken window.

I couldn't describe your post better.

As far as bush goes, tehre are plenty of hard core christians unhappy with him. I am not a hard core christian by any strecth of the mind remind you. I am not happy with bush either, but considering all the alternatives, he is the only choice.

How the hell did Bush get dragged into the discussion? This is rapidly turning into a debate that would be better in the Politics forum.

Originally posted by Travh20
oh pagan, dont get me started on you again. how can you claim to have some deep respect for religion or religious people after all you have said in this forum? just 5 minutes ago yuo were trying to convince someone the bible was full of shit because it called bats birds.

No Trav, I am trying to convince someone that the Bible is not a science book, not that it's "full of shit". try reading the post.

you had it all laid out real neat nad nice all the reasons the bible was wrong becasue of that one statement.

Damn Trav, everything is an extreme with you...if I don't believe that the Bible makes a good science textbook then I "must" believe it has NO value. You obviously have no idea what I think even when I post it in plain English.

This is just another case of disengenious liberals saying everything but at the same time saying nothing.

Here we go with "liberal" this and "liberal" that...just what the hell do my religious beliefs have to do with politics?....you're a broken record Trav...

Normal people who speak of things in such bad terms and with such venom, as you and many others do of religion, do no thave respect or any positive feelings towards what it is they speak negativly of.

Again Trav, you have no idea what I think beyond what I post, so stop inserting your paranoid beliefs into my posts.

BTW, what "bad terms" and "venom" did I post? None, so please don't lie about what I post either.


only a liberal could completly bash and dismantle something piece by piece and then turn around and claim to be trying to protect it.

I didn't "bash" anything Trav, I am merely trying to refute Stark's contention that the Bible is "scientifically" accurate. If you believe that the Bible is scientifically accurate please join the debate, but please don't clot up this thread with your ravings about "liberals" since this is the Religion Forum, not Politics.

Originally posted by Vilepagan
Damn Trav, everything is an extreme with you...if I don't believe that the Bible makes a good science textbook then I "must" believe it has NO value. You obviously have no idea what I think even when I post it in plain English.

I believe that the bible was as "scientifically accurate" as it could be at the time it was written. Compared to todays science it is not.

Your post above made me wonder. What value DOES the bible have for someone like you? Im assuming you are still an atheist, of course.

so tell me waht all this i ssupposed to mean pagan:

I think the only possible answers to this question are as follows:

1. The Bible is scientifically inaccurate.

2. The Bible is scientifically accurate according to the best science available to the men who wrote it. (making the Bible NOT inspired by God)

3. The Bible WAS inspired by God, but he deliberately fed false information to the men who wrote it. (which of course calls into question the rest of the Bible as well)

4. The Bible is scientifically accurate, was inspired by God, and [I]originally[I] it accurately called bats mammals, and didn't call rabbits cud-chewers, but somehow this got lost in translation (which of course would also make the rest of the Bible suspect)

5. Bats ARE fowls, and rabbits DO chew cud.

its a mocking slap in the face is all it is. it is attempting to dismantle the belief that the bible is gods word by casting doubt in the minds of believers based on your idea. I agree, i didnt read the whole post, and I personally dont look at the bible as a scientific text in any way. but what I did see was someone taking a jab at the validity of the entire bible with their presumably innocent argument against its scientific merits. you saw your chance to take a swipe at the whole thing and did. it may have been a simple sarcastic jab to you but to some it could be read the entirely wrong way.

Originally posted by HaVoK
I believe that the bible was as "scientifically accurate" as it could be at the time it was written. Compared to todays science it is not.

I admit in my post that the bible may have been as scientifically accurate as was possible at the time. However, I also believe that the fact that it's NOT scientifically accurate today raises certain other philosophical questions.

Your post above made me wonder. What value DOES the bible have for someone like you? Im assuming you are still an atheist, of course.

I believe the Bible contains much wisdom, especially the teachings of Jesus as regards human relations, and it contains some beautiful poetry, the 23rd Psalm being a good example. I think it also contains some horriffic stories and some very outdated laws.

The paradox for me has always been that this one book has inspired man to create his most beautiful works of art, and has inspired other men to commit horrible atrocities, all in the name of God.

As far as being an atheist goes, it would probably be more accurate to call me an agnostic, because while I do not believe in the existence of God as represented in the Bible, I'm also not arrogant enough to believe that I have any special insight into the matter. I'm willing to admit I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Travh20

its a mocking slap in the face is all it is.

I don't believe it is, and I know it wasn't intended that way.

it is attempting to dismantle the belief that the bible is gods word by casting doubt in the minds of believers based on your idea.

Actually it is an attempt to get Stark to decide whether or not the Bible is "scientifically accurate" based on logic.

I agree, i didnt read the whole post, and I personally dont look at the bible as a scientific text in any way.

I applaud that belief, and agree with it. The entire discussion with Stark is about this very point, NOT the validity of the Bible as a religious text.

but what I did see was someone taking a jab at the validity of the entire bible with their presumably innocent argument against its scientific merits. you saw your chance to take a swipe at the whole thing and did.

I'm sorry you saw it that way, that's not how it was intended. The post is only intended to discuss the Bible's scientific accuracy.

it may have been a simple sarcastic jab to you but to some it could be read the entirely wrong way.

I have to suggest that you read it entirely the wrong way.

Originally posted by Vilepagan

I believe the Bible contains much wisdom, especially the teachings of Jesus as regards human relations, and it contains some beautiful poetry, the 23rd Psalm being a good example. I think it also contains some horriffic stories and some very outdated laws.

The paradox for me has always been that this one book has inspired man to create his most beautiful works of art, and has inspired other men to commit horrible atrocities, all in the name of God.

As far as being an atheist goes, it would probably be more accurate to call me an agnostic, because while I do not believe in the existence of God as represented in the Bible, I'm also not arrogant enough to believe that I have any special insight into the matter. I'm willing to admit I could be wrong. Agnostic it is then, my sincere apologies. Thank you for your answer. I agree with you that the bible is full of some beautiful poetry. The 23rd psalm example was a great example. As a matter of fact i agree with your entire opinion you stated. I myself do not think the bible was intended to be followed verbatim. I think it was intended to be used as a starting point for the good that mankind could and should do for each other but also as a warning to show the evils that mankind is capable of if we do not put time and effort into treating our fellow man as kindly as possible.

I wont even try to defend the comment about all the horrible atrocitites commited in the name of God except to ask a simple question. Do you feel that Allah truly wants his fanatical following to kill everyone who does not believe in Allah? Or do you think that the fanatical group who thinks this way has bastardized their version of the religion itself? I do not speak of the millions of muslims who practice their peaceful religion but only of the minority extremists who get all the exposure in our media today.

This thread seems to have turned into a trial of Vilepagan. Hope he won't be burned like a witch for his opinion on the Bible…

BTW, about the original post by Travh - you're right, historically, the socialist have been opposed to the religion and the church. In a very different context from today's USA, though - in a time when the catholic church was usually on the side of monarchists and against democracy. Which does not excuses the atrocities commited by leftwing revolutionaries during the french revolution, the spanish civil war or the russian revolution, though.
According to Marx, religion is the 'people's opium", an organization dedicated to fool people and turn them from adressing the real political issues and getting the power. I must admit this was quite true at his time, and by some aspects it still is. Organizations such as the Opus Dei still have a huge power and are hardly on the side of poor people !

It isn’t the specific teachings of any individual church or religion that I find evil. It is the loss of ones connection to their humanity that scares me. I believe that religion disconnects people from their personal conscience and their humanity. Instead of looking within themselves and to their conscience for answers they turn to interpretation of scripture (either their own or someone else’s). I believe that people who are taught this practice loose their connection to their own personal conscience and their connection to the world and other living beings, they loose their humanity. I give the example of how the priests who covered up for the child molesters (not the ones that did it, but the ones that covered it up) turned to their church for answers rather than their conscience. These men were probably very honorable, good and loving men. But rather than look to their personal conscience, they turned to their church. Some other examples would be people who kill for their religious convictions, and people who hate for their religious convictions. These are obvious extreme examples and not everyone carries it to that degree. Some just simply cripple themselves in life and ostracize others by their behavior. Like the poor soul who spouts religion at every ebb in a conversation. These people are quite obviously disconnected from their humanity. They couldn’t listen to their own personal conscience and come to a moral conclusion if their life depended on it. Everything in their life, every moral decision, every interaction with other people is a direct result of interpretation of scripture. Their answer for why they believe something is right or wrong is “because the bible says so in So-and-so 12:62”.

I believe that children need to be taught that doing good is its own reward; that we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. We do not do good because we want to save ourselves from everlasting torment after death or because we want to spend eternity with whatever entity we pray to. Children need to be taught to look to themselves for answers to listen to their own personal conscience and not to some ancient book of scriptures. When we look to ourselves and our conscience for answers, we connect with our humanity and the world around us. We take a personal responsibility for our moral decisions and actions. We take a certain stand because we used sequential thought process and our conscience and we came to a conclusion. We are able to back that stand up with our own personal reasons for taking it, and because it is OUR decision, we are also able to re-evaluate that stand and alter it if we find we are wrong. People who turn to a religion for a decision on what stand to take, can seldom back it up with solid reasons and explain their thought process and how they came to that decision, instead they spout scripture. Sometimes not even understanding the words they are spouting. Also, people who turn to religion for a decision on what stand to take are seldom willing to re-evaluate that decision because religious doctrines almost always teaches not to question, just to go on faith. However, having faith demands that we sublimate logic.

Obviously because we are dealing with people there are differing levels of loss of humanity and personal conscience. Some people are on the other end of the spectrum from the extreme examples I gave above. They do not follow all of their churches teachings to the letter. They turn to it for some things, and not for others. Some of their moral conclusions are their own. And many have not completely lost the ability to connect to their conscience, take responsibility for their conclusions, support them without scripture and even re-evaluate them when they feel the need. Something their Church’s would not approve of.

So it isn’t the dogma that religions teach that I find evil. It is the insipient way they take away an individuals connection to their conscience, slowly taking over the person's life until they have little or no connection to their humanity and the world around them other than through that particular religious doctrine. Religions take away peoples personal responsibility for their moral convictions.

I love you :D

An excellent and erudite post Echo...very insightful. I second Blib's statement. :flowers:


I believe that children need to be taught that doing good is its own reward; that we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

This is perhaps the best statement in your post...and speaking for my agnostic self, I would suggest that perhaps this was what Jesus was trying to tell us...sadly men have corrupted this fine message for their own ends.

I second that......:)

I only wish I could express my thoughts on such matters as nicely as you just did Echo.

where do you get your morals from? from what I have seen there seems to be very few concrete morals among athiests. they seem to enjoy living in the gray area, as its easier to explain away any lapse in their conscience then to have to answer to yourself for it. I think that is one of the main reasons people have such ill feelings towards religion. They do not like anything having a final say over their lives. if you believe in god, then his word is final. if you dont there is always wiggle room to justify your inappropriate actions. and there is always a way to change a man made law, be it through legislation or the judiciary, there is a way. I believe it is the absolute that scares the athiests.

As far a a conscinece and it connection to the humanity, i dont see how you can say there would be a conscinece without a god. how do you explaina conscience scientifically? you cant. something put a consciecne into humans. we know that murder is wrong. we have somethng called guilt that appears when we go against our conscience. the athiests dont like to feel guilt so they ty and justify whatever it was that caused it, but the feeling never really goes away. the feeling is put ther by your conscience, and your conscince is put there by what? all humans have one. its debateable if animals do or not, after watching a cat kill a bird and walking away without eating as if nothing happened I would say not.

so if god, or buddah, or allah or whatever you happen to believe has given us our conscience, how can worshipping or acknowledging them sperate you from it? if anything it would bring you closer to your conscience. I used to be a die hard athiest, and believe that religion was simply created to give hope to the hopeless and keep tehm from seeing how crappy their lives were and mearly looking forward to the next one. I do not bleive that anymore. Religion does give hope to the hopeless, but that is a good thing. dying, hopeless people get more out of church and faith then they ever will out of a government program.

Thank you for poving my point Trav. You admit to not understanding having a conscience without a god. So it follows that all of your moral convictions come from your religious beliefs and not from an internal conscience that says "This is wrong". In other words, without your sky ferry you would be lost, unable to make a morale decision or understand the difference between right and wrong.

You are a perfect example of what I was writting about. Your twisted views about people who are different from you, your hate for all things that disagree with you and your complete and utter lack of comprhension of what a real conscience is and how to use it without some sky ferry telling you what to do.

Just keep drinking the cool aid Trav and someday if you are a real good boy god will take you to heaven with him and you can float around for eternity with all the other hate mongers without a conscience. Religion teaches intollerance and you have learned your leasons well.

Trav, in response to your whole post. Bullshit.

Grey area is because different people think different things, the ins and outs of morality are not identical, the only things that are remotely similar are the very very basic principles. Such as thievery, murder, tolerance. I don't know how to explain a conscience or how it first arrived, but I'm not immediately going to assume it means a magical force, we may yet find some reason. Mostly...

I believe it is the absolute that scares the athiests.
There is no such thing. There is no absolute on Earth, and that is where we live. We don't live in Heaven.

Religion does give hope to the hopeless, but that is a good thing. dying, hopeless people get more out of church and faith then they ever will out of a government program.
And we don't care if there are people who get hope from it, they can, let them be. But we don't want religion to become a government program.

maybe you missed something. I said I was a die hard athiest, for 90% of my life. I thought religion was a fraud used to control people, yet I still knew the difference between right and wrong didnt I? How did I know this? I had a conscince without god for 25 years. I am not some holy roller by any means, but I believe that there is a god, adn that god is the reason we know the difference between right and wrong. You perhaps think government is the final say, but I dont. you need to relax and stop with the high and mighty bullshit. you dont know anything except for what you have convinced yourself of. perhaps you think you are god? thats what it says in your sig anyway.

You perhaps think government is the final say, but I dont.
I don't know anybody who does. How can you pull government into everything? This is individual, philosophical, religious. Things that government is not.

perhaps you think you are god?
That's what I think. That I am the say in my life, that I am the one that I will listen to, that I am the one that will make my decisions, that I am the one who will live. I have absolutely no need for a big almighty and as 8 Bit Theatre put it, "Omnipotent Jackass". I'll make my own decisions, I wont look up to a god or government.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Trav, in response to your whole post. Bullshit.

Grey area is because different people think different things, the ins and outs of morality are not identical, the only things that are remotely similar are the very very basic principles. Such as thievery, murder, tolerance. I don't know how to explain a conscience or how it first arrived, but I'm not immediately going to assume it means a magical force, we may yet find some reason. Mostly...

I believe it is the absolute that scares the athiests.
There is no such thing. There is no absolute on Earth, and that is where we live. We don't live in Heaven.

Religion does give hope to the hopeless, but that is a good thing. dying, hopeless people get more out of church and faith then they ever will out of a government program.
And we don't care if there are people who get hope from it, they can, let them be. But we don't want religion to become a government program.

there are absolutes on earth, you mentioned a few. so your statement is false. a few more are death and conscience.

bliblob you brought government into it before me

This whole argument seems obsurd to me...

People put so much stock into the most little of things....conscience over God??? How selfish and self gratifying.
Saying things like you dont need a God to look up to...let me ask, why don't you? God gave you life, paved the way for you to live a life that you live, gave his only begotten son so that you may live eternally, and you turn your back on him because, people show more loyalty to God than themselves.... of course they do. Does one not show more loyalty to their spouse becuase they love them, their children because they love them. God more than deserves the respect he asks....and a lot more. Fortunately, we live in a world today, where we are no longer asked to give sacrifices and such, but if the time came, that God told us, to start sacrificing every million dollar thourobread in Kentucky, I'd be more than happy to do, if it made God happy...;)

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
This whole argument seems obsurd to me...

People put so much stock into the most little of things....conscience over God??? How selfish and self gratifying.
Saying things like you dont need a God to look up to...let me ask, why don't you? God gave you life, paved the way for you to live a life that you live, gave his only begotten son so that you may live eternally, and you turn your back on him because, people show more loyalty to God than themselves.... of course they do. Does one not show more loyalty to their spouse becuase they love them, their children because they love them. God more than deserves the respect he asks....and a lot more. Fortunately, we live in a world today, where we are no longer asked to give sacrifices and such, but if the time came, that God told us, to start sacrificing every million dollar thourobread in Kentucky, I'd be more than happy to do, if it made God happy...;)
Simple. Because I don't believe he exists.

“where do you get your morals from? from what I have seen there seems to be very few concrete morals among athiests.”

More criminals in prison are christians than atheists.

“They do not like anything having a final say over their lives. if you believe in god, then his word is final. if you dont there is always wiggle room to justify your inappropriate actions. and there is always a way to change a man made law, be it through legislation or the judiciary, there is a way. I believe it is the absolute that scares the athiests.”

There is no absolute in religion. Every sect interprets scripture differently. For a religious person, their moral guage depends on the particular sky fairy they believe in. My absolute is my conscience. I can't deny it, I can't hide from it, I can't lie to it. If your conscience is so weak it allows you to do these things it is because you are not connected to your conscience, you make all moral decisions with your religion.

“As far a a conscinece and it connection to the humanity, i dont see how you can say there would be a conscinece without a god.”

I pity you, You prove my point. You would have no moral guage without your god because you are not connected to your humanity. You do what you believe is right because your religion tells you to. Not because it is the right thing to do.

“the athiests dont like to feel guilt so they ty and justify whatever it was that caused it,”

Please prove this statement. Back it up with statistics or facts. I’ll bet I know twice as many atheists as you do and each and every one of them has a very well developed conscience. They don’t kill in the name of god, they don’t hate in the name of religion, they don’t deny civil rights in the name of jesus. They do the right thing for the sake of doing it, not to save their soul or get past the pearly gates.

“how can worshipping or acknowledging them sperate you from it?”

When we look to ourselves and our conscience for answers, we connect with our humanity and the world around us. We take a personal responsibility for our moral decisions and actions. We take a certain stand because we used sequential thought process and our conscience and we came to a conclusion. We are able to back that stand up with our own personal reasons for taking it, and because it is OUR decision, we are also able to re-evaluate that stand and alter it if we find we are wrong. People who turn to a religion for a decision on what stand to take, can seldom back it up with solid reasons and explain their thought process and how they came to that decision, instead they spout scripture. Sometimes not even understanding the words they are spouting. Also, people who turn to religion for a decision on what stand to take are seldom willing to re-evaluate that decision because religious doctrines almost always teaches not to question, just to go on faith.

Having faith demands that we sublimate logic.

While I do wish and pray Christ will show you, the errors of your way, there is nothing we can do.

It is painful to see someone openly mock God. Its sickening really to hear that someone thinks he doesnt exist.

But nonbelievers still have the time until either they pass or time ends, to fix their wrongs, and just ask Christ to save them....but if not, they will pay for their bad judgement, on God's Judgement Day....

:(

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
While I do wish and pray Christ will show you, the errors of your way, there is nothing we can do.

It is painful to see someone openly mock God. Its sickening really to hear that someone thinks he doesnt exist.

But nonbelievers still have the time until either they pass or time ends, to fix their wrongs, and just ask Christ to save them....but if not, they will pay for their bad judgement, on God's Judgement Day....

:(
Thank you for your...er...kindness, but your proselytizing and opinion of my religion ("sickening") is best left to yourself.

I didnt say your religion (if you dare call it that) was sickening...I said the fact that say that sickens me....in the sense that Im sad for you as a human being....I mean nothing bad by it, and I mean nothing but complete good by saying I hope one day, God opens your eyes...

Please forgive me, If I hurt your feelings or anythng.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
While I do wish and pray Christ will show you, the errors of your way, there is nothing we can do.

It is painful to see someone openly mock God. Its sickening really to hear that someone thinks he doesnt exist.

But nonbelievers still have the time until either they pass or time ends, to fix their wrongs, and just ask Christ to save them....but if not, they will pay for their bad judgement, on God's Judgement Day....

:(

I realize you mean well, but I find it terribly insulting to be prayed for. Please do it in the privacy of your home and not openly on a public board. Religion to me is evil. Probubly stronger than your feelings about the devil.

I hope your sky fairy brings you happiness and I especially hope that you don't use your sky fairy to try and tell everybody else how to live their lifes.

there are absolutes on earth, you mentioned a few. so your statement is false. a few more are death and conscience.
I did say "similar". Conscience is not absolute, some people obviously don't have them, serial killers for one. Not to mention everybody has a different conscicence. Death? Fine... Some people consider killing fine, some think that some things are okay to be stolen.

bliblob you brought government into it before me
No I didn't. You mentioned government programs. :D

People put so much stock into the most little of things....conscience over God??? How selfish and self gratifying.
Little things? It's my life, not yours, not god's. If he didn't want me to think for myself then he shouldn't have given me that ability. You may call it selfish, sure, why not. But it is still my life. I'll be selfish about deciding my life, simply because nobody else has the right to decide it for me. Not even that nonexistant god. Actually, especially not that nonexistant god.

Very well....

But in the same breath, calling my God, a sky fairy is quite insulting to me....probably more than youre "being prayed for," so if youre going to address my God, address him atleast as "youre God" not "sky fairy"

Thanks.

Originally posted by Blibblob

Little things? It's my life, not yours, not god's. If he didn't want me to think for myself then he shouldn't have given me that ability. You may call it selfish, sure, why not. But it is still my life. I'll be selfish about deciding my life, simply because nobody else has the right to decide it for me. Not even that nonexistant god. Actually, especially not that nonexistant god.


Well it IS gods life because he created it....but I'm not going to push anything down your throat you down want... because I understand if our roles were reversed how it would feel...

That said, I hope we can respect each other enough, that if I will back off on talking the Gospel...than you should back off on the blasephemy for the Christians and Other belivers of this board....

Lets atleast try to work together as Humans here, and make things comfortable for all involved.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Very well....

But in the same breath, calling my God, a sky fairy is quite insulting to me....probably more than youre "being prayed for," so if youre going to address my God, address him atleast as "youre God" not "sky fairy"

Thanks.

Can't help it, there are so many different sky fairy's I get them all mixed up. Some of them hate one group and some hate the others and many hate everybody. I use the term because allah, god, buhda, ming chi, jesus, etc ...there are just too many to decifer, but they all have the same common denominator. They are commonly thought to be up high (as in the sky) and they are suposedly magical (as in fairy).

I doubt you even can comprehend how insulting it is to be "prayed for". It is patronizing and insulting and down right rude.

Originally posted by Echo2
I hope your sky fairy brings you happiness and I especially hope that you don't use your sky fairy to try and tell everybody else how to live their lifes.
And you call him patronizing, insulting, and rude?

That said, I hope we can respect each other enough, that if I will back off on talking the Gospel...than you should back off on the blasephemy for the Christians and Other belivers of this board....
This is the religion thread. It is almost impossible to refrain from insulting someone, somehow. For the most part I just keep most of what's in this forum, in this forum and it doesn't tie into my ideas of people when we debate other things. Unless it's trav. :D

Originally posted by Travh20
where do you get your morals from?


I was taught the difference between right and wrong by my parents, and by interaction with other humans.

As far a a conscinece and it connection to the humanity, i dont see how you can say there would be a conscinece without a god. how do you explaina conscience scientifically? you cant. something put a consciecne into humans. we know that murder is wrong.

I'm not sure I can explain "conscience" scientifically, but all animals have an aversion to killing members of their own species. I suspect this is an evolutionary trait. If you look at a pack of wolves, they don't hunt each other, they hunt different animals. Even when they engage in violence towards one another, for instance to establish which wolf is the "leader of the pack", they don't kill each other. When one wolf submits, by rollling on his belly and exposing his vitals, the aggressor backs down.

we have somethng called guilt that appears when we go against our conscience.
the athiests dont like to feel guilt so they ty and justify whatever it was that caused it, but the feeling never really goes away. the feeling is put ther by your conscience, and your conscince is put there by what? all humans have one. its debateable if animals do or not, after watching a cat kill a bird and walking away without eating as if nothing happened I would say not.

We as humans have a more highly developed conscience than other animals because we're more highly developed and we are social animals.

We have the aversion to killing other humans, and we're taught that there are other behaviors that are socially unacceptable. We aren't born knowing that it's wrong to steal, or mistreat others, we learn that as we grow.

Not all humans have a conscience. There are some people who simply don't have those feelings of guilt that we commonly associate with committing some wrong. They're called sociopaths, and are often criminals.

So Let me get this strait...this is a RELIGION thread...where it is ok, to tell someone the God they love and worship is no more than a "sky fairy"


But its rude, hurtful, and downright evil to pray for that person.

It seems to me like these people are wanting to call the kettle black just a little bit too much....

I think I was more than standup by obeying your requests of trying to attempt to understand your beliefs, feelings, and ways of life, but in the very same thread, you cannot take back calling my god a "sky fairy"......

So Let me get this strait...this is a RELIGION thread...where it is ok, to tell someone the God they love and worship is no more than a "sky fairy"

But its rude, hurtful, and downright evil to pray for that person.
Pray for somebody, why give a shit what they think about what you are personally doing? You can tell me why god exists, I can tell you why he doesn't. We don't get much more because there are mostly the christians and the athiests on this board. Just as it is mostly in life. Those are the two that like to speak up the most, most other religions tend to keep it quite personal. I attempt to understand religion, I often manage to be successful, but it is never a reason I would hold for myself. There are times however when it completely baffles me when somebody does nothing but blab about god and the bible and such but never think for themselves, what confuses me is how they can manage to do that.

The reason you give an S*** about someone is because you are commanded to love them, even if you do not agree with what they do.

And the simplest form of love, is the hope that they get to Heaven.


Just because someone is religious does not mean they are not a free thinker and can not worry about themselves.

Im sure you have seen my opinions spilt around this site in the last, oh, 18 hours. I think a lot about a lot of stuff, I think for myself, I care about myself. I love myself. I respect myself.

But that doesnt mean because I'm those things, I cant be religious and love the lord, or vise versa.

Thank You for Accepting My Opinions, as I do Yours.

And the simplest form of love, is the hope that they get to Heaven.

Wouldn't that involve them dying? I would hope they lived a long and happy life.

As do I Whats the relevance?

Originally posted by Echo2
“where do you get your morals from? from what I have seen there seems to be very few concrete morals among athiests.”

More criminals in prison are christians than atheists.

“They do not like anything having a final say over their lives. if you believe in god, then his word is final. if you dont there is always wiggle room to justify your inappropriate actions. and there is always a way to change a man made law, be it through legislation or the judiciary, there is a way. I believe it is the absolute that scares the athiests.”

There is no absolute in religion. Every sect interprets scripture differently. For a religious person, their moral guage depends on the particular sky fairy they believe in. My absolute is my conscience. I can't deny it, I can't hide from it, I can't lie to it. If your conscience is so weak it allows you to do these things it is because you are not connected to your conscience, you make all moral decisions with your religion.

“As far a a conscinece and it connection to the humanity, i dont see how you can say there would be a conscinece without a god.”

I pity you, You prove my point. You would have no moral guage without your god because you are not connected to your humanity. You do what you believe is right because your religion tells you to. Not because it is the right thing to do.

“the athiests dont like to feel guilt so they ty and justify whatever it was that caused it,”

Please prove this statement. Back it up with statistics or facts. I’ll bet I know twice as many atheists as you do and each and every one of them has a very well developed conscience. They don’t kill in the name of god, they don’t hate in the name of religion, they don’t deny civil rights in the name of jesus. They do the right thing for the sake of doing it, not to save their soul or get past the pearly gates.

“how can worshipping or acknowledging them sperate you from it?”

When we look to ourselves and our conscience for answers, we connect with our humanity and the world around us. We take a personal responsibility for our moral decisions and actions. We take a certain stand because we used sequential thought process and our conscience and we came to a conclusion. We are able to back that stand up with our own personal reasons for taking it, and because it is OUR decision, we are also able to re-evaluate that stand and alter it if we find we are wrong. People who turn to a religion for a decision on what stand to take, can seldom back it up with solid reasons and explain their thought process and how they came to that decision, instead they spout scripture. Sometimes not even understanding the words they are spouting. Also, people who turn to religion for a decision on what stand to take are seldom willing to re-evaluate that decision because religious doctrines almost always teaches not to question, just to go on faith.

Having faith demands that we sublimate logic.

your a pompus asshole. listen to you. I have never quoted scripture on this site, I am not some religious nut ball. I dont appreciate you implying that yoer conscience is somehow better then mine simply because i believe in god. you take everything bad about religion and none of the good. your no better then a bibler thumper yourself with your lies and propagada praising your side while doing nothing but tearing down the other side.

As do I Whats the relevance?

You said "the simplest form of love, is the hope that they get to Heaven" and I was saying that to me love would be hoping they were happy while they were living, not after they were dead.

If I had to chose rather to be happy on Earth or Happy in Heaven, I'd absolutely chose Heaven.

Heaven is eternal paradise. No problems, no strife, no sickness, no sadness, no bittnerness, just total paradise, with a glorified body.

Why would I chose less than a century fool of sickness, and problems, and stress, and heartache, and pain; when I could chose endless eternal happiness in the eternal kingdom of Heaven.

So your question is no, I would much rather someone be happy in Heaven. If I could be guaranteed that living as a bum in my underwear on the side of the street, if God told me to do that, I would without a seconds thought.

Faith...

actually pagan, male lions kill all the offspring of another male lion in the pride when they take one over, they dotn seem to shook up about it.

Originally posted by Travh20
actually pagan, male lions kill all the offspring of another male lion in the pride when they take one over, they dotn seem to shook up about it.

Yes they do in order to then impregnate the females with their offspring. It's a survival tactic designed to spread the dominant males genes.

Trav, I didn't mean to suggest that animals have the same conscience as humans in the sense that they have feelings of guilt over the same "crimes". Lions do what they do out of a survival instinct. Their social rules allow such behavior, and in essence, what they are doing is not a "crime" in lion society. What lions and other animals don't do, is kill other lions for no reason, although I suppose they might if they're ill or injured.

In some ways I consider myself a "Leftist" does that mean I am a
"Bad" or "evil" person.

However, I must say, that I am a
Christian.