Is this an invasion of privacy or freedom of speech? Why should people be allowed to walk up to your door, knock on it and immediately tell you why you are going to Hell if you don't belive as they do?

If you leave religous tracts on my car window fine, I can throw them away, but don't saunter up to my door with your kids and a briefcase and talk to me about Hell. I can't imagine a worse Hell then those kids missing out on Saturday morning cartoons because mom and dad need to "save" the world!

Thoughts?

It's trespassing. I'd take 'em to court and nail them to the wall for it if they ever did that to me.

I don't have a problem with door-to-door missionaries, telemarketers, junk mail, spam, etc.

I just tell them, "No, thanks," and shut the door, hang up the phone, put it in the recycler, ramp up my spam filter settings, etc.

I usually don't listen to missionaries, not that I ever get any at my doorstep. I think it depends on where you live. In certain places this is like daily activity for part of the community, and some places don't get any at all.

I won't listen to probably all door missionaries, and very seldomly door salespeople. Wastes my time. I just say have a nice day and don't even let anyone in unless I'm so interested in the stuff I was glad to see them--not likely to happen.

Telemarketers I used to hate the most mainly because I got those a lot more. Since I switched to exclusively cell phone last year though I stopped getting any. It could just be coincidence due to that government ban happening around the same time, but either way my ears were kept undisturbed for almost a year now.

Originally posted by Lithorien
It's trespassing. I'd take 'em to court and nail them to the wall for it if they ever did that to me.

It's not trespassing until you ask them to leave and they refuse. Or you have a fence around your house and they ignore it.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
It's not trespassing until you ask them to leave and they refuse. Or you have a fence around your house and they ignore it.
Yep.

I never get any, but if I did, I'd see them, say "No thanks", and shut the door. If they persisted, I'd tell them to stay off my property.

And if they continued persisting, I'd answer the door naked. :D

Borg, they might like that. :D

I always tell then nicely that I'm not interested.

I don't have a problem with door-to-door missionaries, telemarketers, junk mail, spam, etc.

I just tell them, "No, thanks," and shut the door, hang up the phone, put it in the recycler, ramp up my spam filter settings, etc.

Unprovoked advertising, especially kinds that force me to waste my time like door to door salesfolk and phone calls, infuriate me.

A simple no thanks will suffice. Or you could just tell them NEVER come back...

they are just trying to help people if you think about it...many christians believe that it is your duty to convert others.....this goes for jehovah's wittness' and mormans

I believe that Telemarketing, Junk Mail, Door to Door Missionaries, etc. will just be a part of our lives for as long as we live. Every time we come up with something new to limit the rights of these people, somehow they'll find a way to get around it. Before you know it, we have telemarketers calling us every hour on every day, junk mail filling up our e-boxes, and missionaries (though not a real problem in my area) knocking on our doors, each with their own creative ways to work around the system, given that they find it. I think it's here to stay no matter what.

There are actually no laws to try to stop this; on the contrary, the constitution has made it clear that its their right to do this (them being Jehovah's Witnesses, etc) People have tried to limit JW's for years but when brought to court the cases never win. It is just something that you and all ppl must tolerate. And if you cant do that, just tell em never to "come a a knocking" at your door.

I'd just come to the door carrying a severed head and the Satanist Bible in the other hand. Along the lines of what I'd do to telemarketers, ask them obscure questions about their products, like if they're selling doors I'd ask if they sell human blood painted ones. Just fuck with the annoying people.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
There are actually no laws to try to stop this; on the contrary, the constitution has made it clear that its their right to do this (them being Jehovah's Witnesses, etc) People have tried to limit JW's for years but when brought to court the cases never win. It is just something that you and all ppl must tolerate. And if you cant do that, just tell em never to "come a a knocking" at your door.

JW,
Do you ever go door to door? I'm just curious what that experience is like and when you started, and if you did, did you save anyone.....or "convert them"?

if you don't like them or there ways tell them, be blunt

Originally posted by mad dog
if you don't like them or there ways tell them, be blunt


you should have said their, not there...didnt you go to high school;)

Living in a small military town right outside of Ft Hood, TX in the 70's we saw more than our share of door-to-door prostylizers from a variety of faiths. Some were very persistent and intrusive. Military towns attract all sorts of free thinkers, not only the hyper-religious types.

im sorry i have been away for awhile....now to the question: Have I ever been door to door. Yes i have, in fact i go at least once a week. It is not scary or weird at all. If you believe in what u are doing it is not difficult, and i can take a hint, if you dont want me at ur door, all you have to do is politely ask. Its not like we(they) take up all of your day. A quick minute and we are gone. I dont get the rage behind that. Maybe its just me...

It is a blatant invasion of privacy and makes a huge statement about the manners and thinking of the people doing it.

Basically the individuals doing this sort of crap are stateing that they believe that we are all too dumb to know where to find religion and that we have nothing better to do than listen to them proselytize.

They also believe they are right and everyone else is wrong about religion. They believe they have the right to interupt your dinner or homework or whatever. They don't care if they are being rude or inconsiderate because they need a certain amount of points to get to heaven and they can only get those points by proselytizeing.

These are very sick people. They have no consideration for personal space. No consideration for individul rights and no consideration for other peoples time. All they care about is getting enough points to get to heaven.

But then, what do expect of people who enjoy democracy but are too ignorant to take one hour a year out of their life and vote. (I'm speaking specifically to the JW's).

To be 50 years old you made it pretty clear that you dont know how to debate. You are a pro at arguing, accusing, and denouncing. I refuse to lower myself to your level of childishness.

Originally posted by no moore please
]you should have said their, not there...didnt you go to high school;) ]


sorry I made a mistake :eek:

1st I didn't know this was the "get graded on your writting skills forum???

2nd I did go to school, but back in my day we were pushed through even if one couldn't read. Alot of us had to have jobs, so our jobs out weighed or school activities.

3rd I am self taught, so if I make a mistake I will try to correct it.

4th I have seen some folks on here that claim to have gone to college that make just as many mistakes.

I hope this helped to explain my horrible mistake

Now back to the topic

Originally posted by Jwjames111
]im sorry i have been away for awhile....now to the question: Have I ever been door to door. Yes i have, in fact i go at least once a week.

Why not just keep to yourself and others that believe like you? Put up a billboard......hint.......

If you believe in what u are doing it is not difficult, and i can take a hint, if you dont want me at ur door, all you have to do is politely ask.

I just want to say, you are not invited, so NO one has to be polite. I do agree we should be nice, but some of us get sick of being bugged.

Its not like we(they) take up all of your day.

What makes you think you should take up any ones time at all?

A quick minute and we are gone.

I'm not saying you do this, but some folks won't take no for an answer.

I dont get the rage behind that. Maybe its just me...

My wife and I like to enjoy sitting in our hottub in the morning when someone visits UNinvited this can be a pain in the arse. Then when you get out and find out it is someone selling you some crap that your not interested in the 1st place this can make some peoples blood pressure go through the roof.

well i dont do that, that being standing at your door all day. I can understand you being upset about being disturbed. As i pointed out, jsut tell us never to come back. THats pretty simple. And you are right, you dont have to be polite. But it keeps your blood pressure lower and makes everything go a little more smoothly. And puttng up a billboard...no man we dont do that. And we dont sell anything, so that statement wasnt correct.

Originally posted by Jwjames111 ]well i dont do that, that being standing at your door all day. I can understand you being upset about being disturbed.

This is my point, if you can understand that folks may not want to be disturbed then why do it?

As i pointed out, jsut tell us never to come back. THats pretty simple.

Why not stand on a corner and hand out flyers instead.

And you are right, you dont have to be polite. But it keeps your blood pressure lower and makes everything go a little more smoothly.

You allmost make it sound as if I am suppose to put up with this, why? If you never showed up in the 1st place no ones blood pressure would go up.

And puttng up a billboard...no man we dont do that. And we dont sell anything, so that statement wasnt correct. ]

I never said you did this, I suggested maybe you should do this instead of harassing folks.

Look mad dog what the point of this discussion? I have been quite cordial with you throughout this discussion, trying to see your views and answer them respectfully. Yet all you can do is put me and my beliefs down. look if you dont want ppl to knock at your door either tell em to not vome back or put some kind of sign up warning ppl not to come. All this venting isnt helping keep ppl from your door one bit. And i just said that i dont stand at your door all day, so whats the point of you going back and saying"Then why do it?"

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Look mad dog what the point of this discussion? I have been quite cordial with you throughout this discussion, trying to see your views and answer them respectfully. Yet all you can do is put me and my beliefs down. look if you dont want ppl to knock at your door either tell em to not vome back or put some kind of sign up warning ppl not to come. All this venting isnt helping keep ppl from your door one bit. And i just said that i dont stand at your door all day, so whats the point of you going back and saying"Then why do it?"

A little touchy are we??? 1st off, I have not put you or your beliefs down and I am not venting. The point of the discusion is to find out why some folks feel the need to push themselfs onto others. The reason I keep asking questions is to make you see that some folks don't like to be bothered. So in away yes it is helping for us to post our thoughts this way we can each learn something.

I do not disrespect your beliefs, I do however have a problem with people that feel the need to disrespect my privacy so they can sell there belief. I have many friends that are JW and they know I will listen to them about the way they believe. My BIG question that you keep avoiding is WHY NOT FIND ANOTHER WAY TO ADVERTISE??? Why do you feel the need to go door to door? There are hundreds {thousands} of religions out there that don't have to go door to door and they still seem to function. Why do certain religions feel the need to harass?

Their Watchtower CULT
Causes people to become Mentally ill

For the Tragic Proof of this
see
the book

The Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness, by
Diane Wilson.

Boy Authentic you're starting to sound like Haszard...Anyway we go door to door because that is what Christ did himself and that is what he commisioned his followers to do. Im surprised your many JW friends have never told you this. If you need specific Bible verses I will give them to you but that is the gist of it. And we dont push ourselves on you. We dont ut a gun to your head a nd tell you to take our literature. We ask and that is ALL. So we are not pushing ourselves on anybody, its their own personal choice. And so many ppl accept our literature and listen to our message that its not like what we are doing isn't effective

Originally posted by Jwjames111
And we dont push ourselves on you. We dont ut a gun to your head a nd tell you to take our literature. We ask and that is ALL. So we are not pushing ourselves on anybody, its their own personal choice.

Very bluntly - This is a lie. You DO push yourself on me when you step un invited onto my property, knock on my door and disturb me in my own home. Interupting what I am doing in am attempt to give me information that I could very easily get with a phone call or from the web. I have even been accosted on the street by JW thugs shoving propoganda pamphlets in my face.

You assume that I am too stupid to know where to find religion if I want it. You assume that I don't mind being disturbed in my own home. You assume that I don't mind strange cult members tresspassing on my property.

But the biggest insult is the JW's assumtion that they know the truth and the rest of us are ignorant and need to be saved. What gall. What ego's. How self centered and unconnected to humanity that is.

The JW's are a cult. They fit all the requisite requirements for it. And it has been documented in psychological journals many times.

Keep drinkin that kool aide.

Keep believing that. In YOUR head it IS all about YOU. It's amazing how sensitive you are. If you dont like it, why don't you do somethng to change it. I can debate with mad dog because at least he is reasonable, but calling us thugs and accusing us of being egotistical and thinking the rest of the world is stupid insults me and my religion. Calling us a cult further angers me. A person follows what CHRIST HIMSELF says and that makes them egotistical self-centered and insensitive? You talk as if you have a chip on your shoulder. But you know, that's one reason why I rarely post in the religion forum any more. People like yourself make it hard for me to be reasonable when you come on anf flame my religion. not once have I posted websites that slander certain Baptist, Catholic, etc religions, yet on most posts that i write you will find at least one link to some website slandering what Jehovah's Witnesses are about and believe in. If proselytizing is so terrible why have other churches tried to do it? Has it not been done in other religions? If it was so bad why does your government make steps to continually protect the rights of ppl who do it? Maybe what you dont realize is that you are the minority and maybe you should just post a sign or ask them not to come back as i have stated so many times and get on with your life and stop thinking that we are trying to call you stupid. Like i said though it is your own personal choice so if you choose to think that we think you are stupid then so be it. Just dont answer the door if its so terrible. Or write a letter to one of the congregations of JW's in your area telling them never to come back. Or better yet leave a message on their answering machine telling them not to come back to your house. It is so many ways to resolve your problem. But DONT seek to put someone or their religion down because you cant understand why they do certain things. That makes you no better than any discriminatory scumbag walking the streets.

I have a sign on my front door and the JW's ignore it - that is rude.

JW's are a cult and you can deny it till the cows come home but that doesn't change the facts.

And you ARE being selfish and rude when you insist on bringing your personal beliefs onto my property and my home.

When you bring religious crap to my doorstep it IMPLIES that I am too stupid to know where to go get it if I want it.

Don't answer my door? Excuse me, but it is MY door, bought and paid for. How about you just don't knock on my door, better yet stay off my property.

I have seen the heart break that your religion brings to families. Breaking them up when you can convert one partner and the other wont drink the cool aid.

As for me being a discriminatory scumbag. That just shows your ignorance. I have never once discriminated against you or your ilk. Thinking someting is not the same as discriminating. Discrimination takes an action.

Just keep drinkin that cool aide.

I wont argue with you echo. I really dont need the headache. Its obvious ur mind is quite made up on the matter. Therefore I will just leave this subject alone. I have proselytized all of my life. Never once have i came to a door were the ppl believe as strongly as yu do. And i live in Alabama, the heart of the Bible Belt. We are all entitled to our beliefs, so you believe how you want. You have lived long enough to deserve that right. Debate over.

Well...a lot of opinions...

I rarely get JW's coming to my door, but it happens maybe once a year. It seems to be the same two each time. Two kindly older black ladies with grandmotherly smiles very politly inform me why they're here, and I smile and politely tell them no, I'm an athieist. Actually I'm an agnostic, but that is sometimes taken as an indication I might want to be converted. All in all it's not an unpleasant experience, and these two ladies are so nice I almost look forward to their visits. I can however understand completely why people don't want to be bothered in their homes, because I did have trouble with the local Lutheran Church.

The local Lutheran Church was leaving flyers taped to my door at least once a month inviting me to worship, or Vacation Bible School, or some other function. I got tired of the litter on my front porch so I wrote them a letter and asked them to please stop. I received a response from the minister telling me that the best way to prevent this from occurring would be to purchase a "No Soliciting" sign and affix it to my front door. He also included a mildly insulting comment to the effect that if I couldn't afford a sign, he'd be happy to pay for one.

Ignoring the insult I went to the hardware store, purchased the recommended signage, and mouted it in plain view on my front door. Satisfied that I was now amply warded from these holy litterbugs I tossed the sign receipt in the trash. My satisfaction lasted less than 24 hours however, because the next day another leaflet from heaven miraculously appeared on my doorknob, just inches away from my shiny new "No Soliciting" sign.

In a fit of pique I grabbed the offending flyer, retrieved the food encrusted receipt from the garbage, and with the minister's letter in hand, I made my way to the local church. When I arrived at the church I politely asked to see the minister who happened to be there that day. I explained who I was, why I was there, and showing him his letter, I demanded reimbursement for my seemingly ineffectual placard. To his credit he was very apologetic, reimbused me for the sign, and promised that it would never happen again, which it has not. While there was a happy ending to this story, it does seem to me that I had to go to an awful lot of trouble just to prevent someone from leaving unwanted paperwork on my porch. :)

As Christians we are supposed to witness. I wish there were more people out there with the gaul to just go up to a strangers house and lay out the outline of faith to someone.

Even people on the side of the street holding a sign reading Jesus Saves or Hell is Real....they got he nerve to get out and do God's work, and they should be commended heavely for that.

jwjames- I agree that we are all entitled to our beliefs. But your rights end where mine start. Just because you believe something does not give you the right to tresspass on property, to disturb people in the privacy of their own home and to imply by your presence that we are too stupid to find said information and that is why you brought it to us.

Understand that just because something is legal it does not make it right. Your religion tells you to proseletize, go forth and convert. So why do you feel that you can't fullfill that comand in a public setting? Standing on street corners or in parks? Why do you feel that you must invade other peole's privacy in order to get to heaven? Tell me why you can't be a good little JW and still make enough points to get to heaven by passing out your pamphlets in public settings. Does your religion actually state that tresspassing and disturbing people in their own home is the way to get their attention? Does it tell you to do these things? Can't you get to your heaven by finding some other way to spread your beliefs?

We do go to public places. I believe you alluded to that when you called us "thugs" earlier. On your other points i'll just let go as routine sarcasm. jerejere ty for seeing that. Echo there will always be ppl who love us and there will be ppl who hate us and what we do. Im sorry i got rude earlier. Door to Door witnessing will jus be a part of ur life until either your dead or some law is passed to stop it. Thats just how it is. If its not us it'll be somebody else...Live with at bro.

Echo, If God came down into your home right now and said "See, I'm real so shut up!" would you?

I am not your "bro".

Since I can't stop the harrassment, you are right I must live with it. Signs don't help - JW's ignore them. Showing that they have no respect for individuals feelings or property or time.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
Echo, If God came down into your home right now and said "See, I'm real so shut up!" would you?

There is no god.

If a dragon came down into your home right now and said "Stop believeing! in god" would you?

Oh!!! I didnt know you were atheist. this argument all makes sense now. no wonder i couldnt reason with you, you dont believe in my points.

To live by faith one must sublimate logic.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Boy Authentic you're starting to sound like Haszard...Anyway we go door to door because that is what Christ did himself and that is what he commisioned his followers to do. Im surprised your many JW friends have never told you this. If you need specific Bible verses I will give them to you but that is the gist of it. And we dont push ourselves on you. We dont ut a gun to your head a nd tell you to take our literature. We ask and that is ALL. So we are not pushing ourselves on anybody, its their own personal choice. And so many ppl accept our literature and listen to our message that its not like what we are doing isn't effective ]

Don't worry about authentic he/she likes to ramble.

I know you don't put guns to peoples heads, but you do, sometimes bother folks when they would rather be left alone. I also understand that you want to get your word out, but why do it the way you are, when you know it may turn folks away? Is there a reason you can't use billboards, T.V., radio, etc... The one sure way to make people never hear what you are saying is to pi** them off right from the get go. Lets say you visit 100 homes, 80 of those people get pi**ed because they were in the middle of something when you came knocking, so they'll never listen to you again. Is it worth it to loose 80 and only gain 20?

I see your point and it is valid ALMOST. For the most part ppl are not all that inconvenienced by us knocking on their door, at least that is the case here in Alabama. out of 100 ppl perhaps 40 will let us talk to them, 50 wont and 10 will be adamant about their dislike of us. in each category give or take about 5. But the point is we rarely pi** ppl off

Ha, ha you just did.

You're sooooo cute when you're mad.

Smile pretty for the camera!

I'd like to get a list of the local JW"a and get the entire neigborhood together ans start knocking on their door every day and handing them satanism pamphlets. See how long it takes them to get fed up with other peoples religios beliefs being pushed on them.

These people are sick, cultists with no manners and no awareness that they are bothering people. Even when you tell them they are bothering you they make excuses about it. They don't care, they need those points to get to heaven.

HOw many does it take anyway? How many people do you have to harrass before you get into heaven?

Echo when this debate began you spoke with relative reason and logic. Now you are not even being reasonable. I would rather not even discuss anything else on this post with you because i use reason when I debate and i cant reason with an unreasonable person. Your sarcasm is ridiculous and it is quite annoying. It is really hard to believe that you are in fact 50 years old because the way you constantly badger me about my beliefs suggest your age to be at least half of that. What is your problem. Other ppl on this post can even see my side, yet you continue with your tired argument. Im through being calm and reasonable. Get over it! I'm not as brash as some ppl on this site about calling ppl out but you are gettting quite close.

Once, two young door-to-door preachers(about the age of 20) came up to my door and said, "free lesson on god?". Looking at the way they dress, I knew before they even said anything that they're one of those brainwashed youngsters whose lives have been stolen by Christians. Well I gave them a sad look, then closed the door on them. About two minutes later it started thundering and hailing. LMAO! I guess that's a sign of god.

ha. THough cold-blooded in a way that was ironic. Then again i rains on us all and the sun shines on us all...

Many years ago I saw a 1 frame comic featuring a burnt-out hippie looking male character holding a Bible talking out loud to no-one in particular : " ... I used to be all fucked up on drugs, now I'm all fucked up on the Lord ... ". It helps to remember that little cartoon whenever encountering a door to door Bible thumper.

but conversations like this are why I joined.

Firstly, I am an open-minded Atheist. I don't believe in any 'higher power' or universal plan. Blind luck and worm-food are my answers to the two big questions of How we got here and What happens afterward. I am willing to do the one thing most devoutly religious folks are not...admit that I am guessing and might be wrong. I'm not looking for God, but if you found yours, congratulations.

Unless you have a No Tresspassing sign posted, knocking on your door is not tresspassing. Annoying perhaps, but not illegal or even rude. Should we hate the Girl Scouts too? They insult our intelligence by suggesting we don't know where to buy cookies.

I get regular visits from JWs and I have never had them act rudely or stay after being asked to leave.

Good point about the cookies.

Originally posted by Echo2
I'd like to get a list of the local JW"a and get the entire neigborhood together ans start knocking on their door every day and handing them satanism pamphlets. See how long it takes them to get fed up with other peoples religios beliefs being pushed on them.

These people are sick, cultists with no manners and no awareness that they are bothering people. Even when you tell them they are bothering you they make excuses about it. They don't care, they need those points to get to heaven.

HOw many does it take anyway? How many people do you have to harrass before you get into heaven?

That is some reallly hateful stuff. I'm not too sure it's very beneficial to slam someone like that. I understand that you believe there is no God, but to take out so much anger on one's beliefs....geeezzzzz.

I had a step son whose mother refused to allow him to get a transfusion when he was hit by a car. The reason? She was a JW and they don't believe in transfusions. This woman was willing to let her son die rather than allow him to be saved by being given blood. We had to go to court to get permission to treat him. Going to court takes time and the whole while this boy was slowly dieing. We did get permission and saved his life.

Call it hate if you want. But anyone that refuses to give their child life saving medical care is not only sick, but wrong. I don't care if it is for religious reasons. Purposely letting a child die is wrong. Even the courts agreed.

yeah, but you're generalizing your anger. James is trying to explain himself. Believe me, James and I have had some talks. But, basically you are saying that he is not worthy to be heard because of your own personal experiences. I'm not too sure that is accurate. My brother was raped by two homosexual men when he was in middle school. I am a devout Christian and have no animosity to the homosexual population. Those were individuals, they made their choices. My brother's life is ruined. All choices made by man despite there certain characteristics. Free will. If you would like to get over your anger in areas of your life, try forgiveness....or trying to learn and open up. You seem very angry and hateful. I just hate to see someone having to go through life like that.

My distain is for people who needlessly allow children to suffer and die in the name of their religion. It wouldn't matter what that religion was, JW, Muslim, Buhdist, you name it. It is WRONG to let children suffer and die for any reason when you have the means to help them.

This is my connection to my humanity. I have compassion for children and empathise with their pain.

Well that's understood, and a much better post! I agree.

I hope you do not lay JW's in the same class as other denomination.

They have many rules and doctrines that are in no way based on what the Bible teaches. Like no blood transfusion for instance.

There are JW's here who are just plainly hyprocritical.

For example. One man is Jahova Whitness and gives blood transfusions all the time as a doctor in Lexington, another one who works at the local middle school is the sponsor of the Student Council and Student Government...but is strongly against voting.

I mean they are kindly out there. I read they dont believe in windows in churches either.

I really do not know where they come up with their stuff...but they are really really different from 9/10ths of the rest of us.

Ok jerejere i was with you on most things but you are a staunch believer in the Bible and you blast us like that? We can debate if you so please about any point you want to bring to me about my religion and I will prove to you from the Bible were it is said. Your acceptance of it is based entirely upon you. And please dont judge an entire religion on the practices of one or two individuals...learn what they believe on a whole.

Are you a Jahova Whitness?

I am

I have a lot of friends who are Jahova Whitness, and I'll tell you some quick things I agree and disagree with.

Agree with:

They are the worlds best and bravest at whitnessing for God. No matter how many rejections, how ever many they need to talk to, they Go. They are good at arguing for their cause, and it is to be respected.

Disagree with:

No Blood Transfusion - If there is a bible verse (in NKJ) that says why your denomination does not believe in this practice please show me.

No Voting - Why do they not believe in it.

Do not Celebrate Holidays or Birthdays....when I was growing up learning about the Pilgrims or Jesus's Birth in time for Thanksgiving and Christmas at school....my JW friends would have to leave the room. Each time we had a birthday party for a kid at school, they had to leave.

JW's believe that only a certain number get into Heaven, which is total malarchy. The Bible teaches us that all who call upon the name of Jesus Christ shall be saved....not just 144,000 Jahova Whitnesses.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks
I have a lot of friends who are Jahova Whitness, and I'll tell you some quick things I agree and disagree with.

Agree with:

They are the worlds best and bravest at whitnessing for God. No matter how many rejections, how ever many they need to talk to, they Go. They are good at arguing for their cause, and it is to be respected.

Disagree with:

No Blood Transfusion - If there is a bible verse (in NKJ) that says why your denomination does not believe in this practice please show me.

No Voting - Why do they not believe in it.

Do not Celebrate Holidays or Birthdays....when I was growing up learning about the Pilgrims or Jesus's Birth in time for Thanksgiving and Christmas at school....my JW friends would have to leave the room. Each time we had a birthday party for a kid at school, they had to leave.




Ok here we go...

No Blood Transfusions:
Does the Bible’s prohibition include human blood?

Yes, and early Christians understood it that way. Acts 15:29 says to “keep abstaining from ._._. blood.” It does not say merely to abstain from animal blood. (Compare Leviticus 17:10, which prohibited eating “any sort of blood.”) Tertullian (who wrote in defense of the beliefs of early Christians) stated: “The interdict upon ‘blood’ we shall understand to be (an interdict) much more upon human blood.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV, p. 86.

Is a transfusion really the same as eating blood?

In a hospital, when a patient cannot eat through his mouth, he is fed intravenously. Now, would a person who never put blood into his mouth but who accepted blood by transfusion really be obeying the command to “keep abstaining from ._._. blood”? (Acts 15:29) To use a comparison, consider a man who is told by the doctor that he must abstain from alcohol. Would he be obedient if he quit drinking alcohol but had it put directly into his veins?

Voting:
First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses take this principle seriously. Being “no part of the world,” they are neutral in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.

Second, the apostle Paul referred to himself as an “ambassador” representing Christ to the people of his day. (Ephesians 6:20; 2_Corinthians 5:20) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ Jesus is now the enthroned King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, and they, like ambassadors, must announce this to the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 11:15) Ambassadors are expected to be neutral and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the countries to which they are sent. As representatives of God’s heavenly Kingdom, Jehovah’s Witnesses feel a similar obligation not to interfere in the politics of the countries where they reside.

A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1_Timothy 5:22, The New English Bible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.

Fourth, Jehovah’s Witnesses greatly value their Christian unity. (Colossians 3:14) When religions get involved in politics, the result is often division among their members. In imitation of Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid becoming involved in politics and thus maintain their Christian unity.—Matthew 12:25; John 6:15; 18:36, 37.

Fifth and finally, their keeping out of politics gives Jehovah’s Witnesses freeness of speech to approach people of all political persuasions with the important message of the Kingdom.—Hebrews 10:35.

Holidays(I'll go with most of the major ones):
Is Christmas a celebration based on the Bible?

Date of the celebration

M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of N[ew] T[estament] origin. The day of Christ’s birth cannot be ascertained from the N[ew] T[estament], or, indeed, from any other source.”—(New York, 1871), Vol. II, p. 276.

Luke 2:8-11 shows that shepherds were in the fields at night at the time of Jesus’ birth. The book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus states: “The flocks ._._. passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”—(New York, 1962), Henri Daniel-Rops, p. 228.

The Encyclopedia Americana informs us: “The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the ‘rebirth of the sun.’_._._. The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration.”—(1977), Vol. 6, p. 666.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges: “The date of Christ’s birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month ._._. According to the hypothesis suggested by H. Usener ._._. and accepted by most scholars today, the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25,_274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome.”—(1967), Vol. III, p. 656.

Wise men, or Magi, led by a star

Those Magi were actually astrologers from the east. (Matt. 2:1, 2, NW; NE) Although astrology is popular among many people today, the practice is strongly disapproved in the Bible. (See pages 144, 145, under the main heading “Fate.”) Would God have led to the newborn Jesus persons whose practices He condemned?

Matthew 2:1-16 shows that the star led the astrologers first to King Herod and then to Jesus and that Herod then sought to have Jesus killed. No mention is made that anyone other than the astrologers saw the “star.” After they left, Jehovah’s angel warned Joseph to flee to Egypt to safeguard the child. Was that “star” a sign from God or was it from someone who was seeking to have God’s Son destroyed?

Note that the Bible account does not say that they found the babe Jesus in a manger, as customarily depicted in Christmas art. When the astrologers arrived, Jesus and his parents were living in a house. As to Jesus’ age at that time, remember that, based on what Herod had learned from the astrologers, he decreed that all the boys in the district of Bethlehem two years of age and under were to be destroyed.—Matt. 2:1, 11,_16.

Gift giving as part of the celebration; stories about Santa Claus, Father Christmas, etc.

The practice of Christmas gift giving is not based on what was done by the Magi. As shown above, they did not arrive at the time of Jesus’ birth. Furthermore, they gave gifts, not to one another, but to the child Jesus, in accord with what was then customary when visiting notable persons.

The Encyclopedia Americana states: “During the Saturnalia ._._. feasting prevailed, and gifts were exchanged.” (1977, Vol. 24, p. 299) In many instances that represents the spirit of Christmas giving—an exchanging of gifts. The spirit reflected in such gift giving does not bring real happiness, because it violates Christian principles such as those found at Matthew 6:3,_4_and 2_Corinthians 9:7. Surely a_Christian can give gifts to others as an expression of love at_other times during the year, doing so as often as he wants_to.

Depending on where they live, children are told that gifts are brought by Santa Claus, St._Nicholas, Father Christmas, Père Noël, Knecht Ruprecht, the Magi, the elf Jultomten (or Julenissen), or a witch known as La Befana. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1984, Vol. 3, p. 414) Of course, none of these stories are actually true. Does the telling of such stories build in children a respect for truth, and does such a practice honor Jesus Christ, who taught that God must be worshiped with truth?—John 4:23,_24.

Is there any objection to sharing in celebrations that may have unchristian roots as long as it is not done for religious reasons?

Eph. 5:10,_11: “Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; and quit sharing with them in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving them.”

2_Cor. 6:14-18: “What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´lial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? ._._. ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says Jehovah, “and quit touching the unclean thing”’; ‘“and I will take you in, ._._. and you will be sons and daughters to me,” says Jehovah the Almighty.’” (Genuine love for Jehovah and a strong desire to be pleasing to him will help a person to break free from unchristian practices that may have had emotional appeal. A person who really knows and loves Jehovah does not feel that by shunning practices that honor false gods or that promote falsehood he is in any way deprived of happiness. Genuine love causes him to rejoice, not over unrighteousness, but with the truth. See 1_Corinthians 13:6.)

Compare Exodus 32:4-10. Notice that the Israelites adopted an Egyptian religious practice but gave it a new name, “a festival to Jehovah.” But Jehovah severely punished them for this. Today we see only 20th-century practices associated with holidays. Some may appear harmless. But Jehovah observed firsthand the pagan religious practices from which these originated. Should not his view be what matters to us?

Illustration: Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman’s home saying they are there to celebrate his birthday. He does not favor the celebration of birthdays. He does not like to see people overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there except him! On top of all that, they pick the birthday of one of the man’s enemies as the date for the celebration. How would the man feel? Would you want to be a party to it? This is exactly what is being done by Christmas celebrations.

What is the origin of Easter and the customs associated with it?

The Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”—(1910), Vol. VIII, p. 828.

The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us: “A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. ._._. The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”—(1913), Vol. V, p. 227.

In the book The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop, we read: “What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, ._._. as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar. ._._. Such is the history of Easter. The popular observances that still attend the period of its celebration amply confirm the testimony of history as to its Babylonian character. The hot cross buns of Good Friday, and the dyed eggs of Pasch or Easter Sunday, figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now.”—(New York, 1943), pp. 103, 107,_108; compare Jeremiah 7:18.

Are New Year’s celebrations objectionable for Christians?

According to The World Book Encyclopedia, “The Roman ruler Julius Caesar established January 1 as New Year’s Day in 46 B.C. The Romans dedicated this day to Janus, the god of gates, doors, and beginnings. The month of January was named after Janus, who had two faces—one looking forward and the other looking backward.”—(1984), Vol. 14, p. 237.

Both the date and the customs associated with New Year’s celebrations vary from one country to another. In many places revelry and drinking are part of the festivities. However, Romans 13:13 counsels: “As in the daytime let us walk decently, not in revelries and drunken bouts, not in illicit intercourse and loose conduct, not in strife and jealousy.” (See also 1_Peter 4:3,_4; Galatians 5:19-21.)

What underlies holidays in memory of the “spirits of the dead”?

The 1910 edition of The Encyclopædia Britannica states: “All Souls’ Day ._._. the day set apart in the Roman Catholic Church for the commemoration of the faithful departed. The celebration is based on the doctrine that the souls of the faithful which at death have not been cleansed from venial sins, or have not atoned for past transgressions, cannot attain the Beatific Vision, and that they may be helped to do so by prayer and by the sacrifice of the mass. ._._. Certain popular beliefs connected with All Souls’ Day are of pagan origin and immemorial antiquity. Thus the dead are believed by the peasantry of many Catholic countries to return to their former homes on All Souls’ night and partake of the food of the living.”—Vol. I, p. 709.

The Encyclopedia Americana says: “Elements of the customs connected with Halloween can be traced to a Druid ceremony in pre-Christian times. The Celts had festivals for two major gods—a sun god and a god of the dead (called Samhain), whose festival was held on November 1, the beginning of the Celtic New Year. The festival of the dead was gradually incorporated into Christian ritual.”—(1977), Vol. 13, p. 725.

The book The Worship of the Dead points to this origin: “The mythologies of all the ancient nations are interwoven with the events of the Deluge ._._. The force of this argument is illustrated by the fact of the observance of a great festival of the dead in commemoration of the event, not only by nations more or less in communication with each other, but by others widely separated, both by the ocean and by centuries of time. This festival is, moreover, held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., the seventeenth day of the second month—the month nearly corresponding with our November.” (London, 1904, Colonel J. Garnier, p. 4) Thus these celebrations actually began with an honoring of people whom God had destroyed because of their badness in Noah’s day.—Gen. 6:5-7; 7:11.

Such holidays honoring “spirits of the dead” as if they were alive in another realm are contrary to the Bible’s description of death as a state of complete unconsciousness.—Eccl. 9:5,_10; Ps. 146:4.

Regarding the origin of belief in immortality of the human soul, see pages 101, 102, under the main heading “Death,” and pages 379, 380, under “Soul.”

What is the origin of Valentine’s Day?

The World Book Encyclopedia informs us: “Valentine’s Day comes on the feast day of two different Christian martyrs named Valentine. But the customs connected with the day ._._. probably come from an ancient Roman festival called Lupercalia which took place every February 15. The festival honored Juno, the Roman goddess of women and marriage, and Pan, the god of nature.”—(1973), Vol. 20, p. 204.

What is the origin of the practice of setting aside a day to honor mothers?

The Encyclopædia Britannica says: “A festival derived from the custom of mother worship in ancient Greece. Formal mother worship, with ceremonies to Cybele, or Rhea, the Great Mother of the Gods, were performed on the Ides of March throughout Asia Minor.”—(1959), Vol. 15, p. 849.

What Bible principles explain the viewpoint of Christians toward ceremonies commemorating events in a nation’s political history?

John 18:36: “Jesus answered [the Roman governor]: ‘My kingdom is no part of this world.’”

John 15:19: “If you [Jesus’ followers] were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.”

1_John 5:19: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (Compare John 14:30; Revelation 13:1,_2; Daniel 2:44.)

Other local and national holidays

There are many. Not all can be discussed here. But the historical information provided above gives indications as to what to look for in connection with any holiday, and the Bible principles already discussed supply ample guidance for those whose foremost desire is to do what is pleasing to Jehovah God.

Originally posted by jerejerebinks

JW's believe that only a certain number get into Heaven, which is total malarchy. The Bible teaches us that all who call upon the name of Jesus Christ shall be saved....not just 144,000 Jahova Whitnesses.

Now last but not least...Heaven:
And last but not least...Heaven:
Do all good people go to heaven?

Acts 2:34: “David [whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to Jehovah’s heart’] did not ascend to the heavens.”

Matt. 11:11: “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (So John did not go to heaven when he died.)

Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth . . . The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven?

Gen. 1:26: “God went on to say: ‘Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.’” (So, God’s purpose for Adam was that he be caretaker of the earth and of the animal life there. Nothing is said about his going to heaven.)

Gen. 2:16, 17: “Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (It was not Jehovah’s original purpose for man someday to die. God’s command here quoted shows that he warned against the course that would lead to death. Death was to be punishment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life in heaven. Obedience would have been rewarded by continued life, eternal life, in the Paradise that God had given to man. See also Isaiah 45:18.)

Must a person go to heaven to have a truly happy future?

Ps. 37:11: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”

Rev. 21:1-4: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’”

Mic. 4:3, 4: “They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken it.”

Did Jesus open the way to heaven for those who had died before his own death?

What does 1 Peter 3:19, 20 mean? “In this state [in the spirit, following his resurrection] also he [Jesus] went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls [“souls,” KJ, Dy; “people,” TEV, JB; “persons,” RS], were carried safely through the water.” (Were those “spirits in prison” the souls of the humans who had refused to take heed to Noah’s preaching before the Flood, and was the way now open for them to go to heaven? Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu´ma·sin, while the word rendered “souls” is psy·khai´. The “spirits” were not disembodied souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.)

What is the meaning of 1 Peter 4:6? “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (Were these “dead” the people who had died prior to the death of Christ? As already shown, the dead are not “the spirits in prison.” Those spirits were disobedient angels. And preaching would not have benefited physically dead humans because, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, they “are conscious of nothing at all,” and Psalm 146:4 adds that at death a person’s “thoughts do perish.” But Ephesians 2:1-7, 17 does refer to persons who were spiritually dead and who came to life spiritually as a result of accepting the good news.)

Is heavenly life set out in the “New Testament” as the hope for all Christians?

John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)

Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gathering of the heirs of the heavenly Kingdom, there would be others who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in heavenly glory.)

What specific references are there in the “New Testament” to a provision for Christians to be rewarded with eternal life on earth?

Matt. 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”

Matt. 6:9, 10: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (What is God’s will regarding the earth? What do Genesis 1:28 and Isaiah 45:18 indicate?)

Matt. 25:31-33, 40, 46: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. . . . The king will say to them [the sheep], ‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ And [the goats] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones [the sheep] into everlasting life.” (Notice that these “sheep” are not the same as the King’s brothers, who are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” [Heb. 2:10–3:1] But these sheeplike ones would be alive during the time that Christ was on his throne and during the time when some of his “brothers” would still be experiencing hardship on earth.)

John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Who are these “other sheep”? They are followers of the Fine Shepherd, Jesus Christ, but are not in the “new covenant” sheepfold, with hope of heavenly life. Yet they do come to be closely associated with those who are in that sheepfold.)

2 Pet. 3:13: “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” (Also Revelation 21:1-4)

Rev. 7:9, 10: “After these things [after the apostle John saw the full number of “sealed” ones who had been “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion; see Revelation 7:3, 4; 14:1-3] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”

To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?

Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”

Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

Are the 144,000 only natural Jews?

Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun . . . Joseph . . . Benjamin.” (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)

Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”

Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?

Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.

The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no´pi·on tou thro´nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.

The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

What will those who go to heaven do there?

Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)

1 Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.”)

Who selects the ones who will go to heaven?

2 Thess. 2:13, 14: “We are obligated to thank God always for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected you from the beginning for salvation by sanctifying you with spirit and by your faith in the truth. To this very destiny he called you through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Rom. 9:6, 16: “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’ . . . It depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.”


Now jere I figure you to be a person of faith and reason. I have basically gave up on preaching or being preachy on this site because it only makes me frustrated. But you asked and I gave you just about all I can give you. I know others will come on and blast what I have written but I really dont care because I believe it is true and I hav read it from not only my Bible but other Bibles so I know it is true. I just hope your eyes can see what mine clearly show me...

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Ok here we go...

No Blood Transfusions:
Does the Bible’s prohibition include human blood?

Yes, and early Christians understood it that way.

Acts 15:29 says to “keep abstaining from ._._. blood.” It does not say merely to abstain from animal blood. (Compare Leviticus 17:10, which prohibited eating “any sort of blood.”) Tertullian (who wrote in defense of the beliefs of early Christians) stated: “The interdict upon ‘blood’ we shall understand to be (an interdict) much more upon human blood.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV, p. 86.

Is a transfusion really the same as eating blood?

In a hospital, when a patient cannot eat through his mouth, he is fed intravenously. Now, would a person who never put blood into his mouth but who accepted blood by transfusion really be obeying the command to “keep abstaining from ._._. blood”? (Acts 15:29) To use a comparison, consider a man who is told by the doctor that he must abstain from alcohol. Would he be obedient if he quit drinking alcohol but had it put directly into his veins?


Oh come on, thats in no way talking about taking blood into your system for medical purposes.


Voting:
First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses take this principle seriously. Being “no part of the world,” they are neutral in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.

Second, the apostle Paul referred to himself as an “ambassador” representing Christ to the people of his day. (Ephesians 6:20; 2_Corinthians 5:20) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ Jesus is now the enthroned King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, and they, like ambassadors, must announce this to the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 11:15) Ambassadors are expected to be neutral and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the countries to which they are sent. As representatives of God’s heavenly Kingdom, Jehovah’s Witnesses feel a similar obligation not to interfere in the politics of the countries where they reside.

A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1_Timothy 5:22, The New English Bible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.

Fourth, Jehovah’s Witnesses greatly value their Christian unity. (Colossians 3:14) When religions get involved in politics, the result is often division among their members. In imitation of Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid becoming involved in politics and thus maintain their Christian unity.—Matthew 12:25; John 6:15; 18:36, 37.

Fifth and finally, their keeping out of politics gives Jehovah’s Witnesses freeness of speech to approach people of all political persuasions with the important message of the Kingdom.—Hebrews 10:35.

That is a very dramtic interpretation of those verses. Various people throughout the bible were involved in Politics....(David, Solomon) I find it hard to believe God doesnt want us to have a say, in who leads us here on Earth.

Holidays(I'll go with most of the major ones):
Is Christmas a celebration based on the Bible?

Date of the celebration

M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of N[ew] T[estament] origin. The day of Christ’s birth cannot be ascertained from the N[ew] T[estament], or, indeed, from any other source.”—(New York, 1871), Vol. II, p. 276.

Luke 2:8-11 shows that shepherds were in the fields at night at the time of Jesus’ birth. The book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus states: “The flocks ._._. passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”—(New York, 1962), Henri Daniel-Rops, p. 228.

The Encyclopedia Americana informs us: “The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the ‘rebirth of the sun.’_._._. The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration.”—(1977), Vol. 6, p. 666.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges: “The date of Christ’s birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month ._._. According to the hypothesis suggested by H. Usener ._._. and accepted by most scholars today, the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25,_274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome.”—(1967), Vol. III, p. 656.

Wise men, or Magi, led by a star

Those Magi were actually astrologers from the east. (Matt. 2:1, 2, NW; NE) Although astrology is popular among many people today, the practice is strongly disapproved in the Bible. (See pages 144, 145, under the main heading “Fate.”) Would God have led to the newborn Jesus persons whose practices He condemned?

Matthew 2:1-16 shows that the star led the astrologers first to King Herod and then to Jesus and that Herod then sought to have Jesus killed. No mention is made that anyone other than the astrologers saw the “star.” After they left, Jehovah’s angel warned Joseph to flee to Egypt to safeguard the child. Was that “star” a sign from God or was it from someone who was seeking to have God’s Son destroyed?

Note that the Bible account does not say that they found the babe Jesus in a manger, as customarily depicted in Christmas art. When the astrologers arrived, Jesus and his parents were living in a house. As to Jesus’ age at that time, remember that, based on what Herod had learned from the astrologers, he decreed that all the boys in the district of Bethlehem two years of age and under were to be destroyed.—Matt. 2:1, 11,_16.

Gift giving as part of the celebration; stories about Santa Claus, Father Christmas, etc.

The practice of Christmas gift giving is not based on what was done by the Magi. As shown above, they did not arrive at the time of Jesus’ birth. Furthermore, they gave gifts, not to one another, but to the child Jesus, in accord with what was then customary when visiting notable persons.

The Encyclopedia Americana states: “During the Saturnalia ._._. feasting prevailed, and gifts were exchanged.” (1977, Vol. 24, p. 299) In many instances that represents the spirit of Christmas giving—an exchanging of gifts. The spirit reflected in such gift giving does not bring real happiness, because it violates Christian principles such as those found at Matthew 6:3,_4_and 2_Corinthians 9:7. Surely a_Christian can give gifts to others as an expression of love at_other times during the year, doing so as often as he wants_to.

Depending on where they live, children are told that gifts are brought by Santa Claus, St._Nicholas, Father Christmas, Père Noël, Knecht Ruprecht, the Magi, the elf Jultomten (or Julenissen), or a witch known as La Befana. (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1984, Vol. 3, p. 414) Of course, none of these stories are actually true. Does the telling of such stories build in children a respect for truth, and does such a practice honor Jesus Christ, who taught that God must be worshiped with truth?—John 4:23,_24.

Is there any objection to sharing in celebrations that may have unchristian roots as long as it is not done for religious reasons?

Eph. 5:10,_11: “Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; and quit sharing with them in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving them.”

2_Cor. 6:14-18: “What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´lial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? ._._. ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says Jehovah, “and quit touching the unclean thing”’; ‘“and I will take you in, ._._. and you will be sons and daughters to me,” says Jehovah the Almighty.’” (Genuine love for Jehovah and a strong desire to be pleasing to him will help a person to break free from unchristian practices that may have had emotional appeal. A person who really knows and loves Jehovah does not feel that by shunning practices that honor false gods or that promote falsehood he is in any way deprived of happiness. Genuine love causes him to rejoice, not over unrighteousness, but with the truth. See 1_Corinthians 13:6.)

Compare Exodus 32:4-10. Notice that the Israelites adopted an Egyptian religious practice but gave it a new name, “a festival to Jehovah.” But Jehovah severely punished them for this. Today we see only 20th-century practices associated with holidays. Some may appear harmless. But Jehovah observed firsthand the pagan religious practices from which these originated. Should not his view be what matters to us?

Illustration: Suppose a crowd come to a gentleman’s home saying they are there to celebrate his birthday. He does not favor the celebration of birthdays. He does not like to see people overeat or get drunk or engage in loose conduct. But some of them do all those things, and they bring presents for everyone there except him! On top of all that, they pick the birthday of one of the man’s enemies as the date for the celebration. How would the man feel? Would you want to be a party to it? This is exactly what is being done by Christmas celebrations.

What is the origin of Easter and the customs associated with it?

The Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians.”—(1910), Vol. VIII, p. 828.

The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us: “A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. ._._. The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.”—(1913), Vol. V, p. 227.

In the book The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop, we read: “What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, ._._. as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar. ._._. Such is the history of Easter. The popular observances that still attend the period of its celebration amply confirm the testimony of history as to its Babylonian character. The hot cross buns of Good Friday, and the dyed eggs of Pasch or Easter Sunday, figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now.”—(New York, 1943), pp. 103, 107,_108; compare Jeremiah 7:18.

Are New Year’s celebrations objectionable for Christians?

According to The World Book Encyclopedia, “The Roman ruler Julius Caesar established January 1 as New Year’s Day in 46 B.C. The Romans dedicated this day to Janus, the god of gates, doors, and beginnings. The month of January was named after Janus, who had two faces—one looking forward and the other looking backward.”—(1984), Vol. 14, p. 237.

Both the date and the customs associated with New Year’s celebrations vary from one country to another. In many places revelry and drinking are part of the festivities. However, Romans 13:13 counsels: “As in the daytime let us walk decently, not in revelries and drunken bouts, not in illicit intercourse and loose conduct, not in strife and jealousy.” (See also 1_Peter 4:3,_4; Galatians 5:19-21.)

What underlies holidays in memory of the “spirits of the dead”?

The 1910 edition of The Encyclopædia Britannica states: “All Souls’ Day ._._. the day set apart in the Roman Catholic Church for the commemoration of the faithful departed. The celebration is based on the doctrine that the souls of the faithful which at death have not been cleansed from venial sins, or have not atoned for past transgressions, cannot attain the Beatific Vision, and that they may be helped to do so by prayer and by the sacrifice of the mass. ._._. Certain popular beliefs connected with All Souls’ Day are of pagan origin and immemorial antiquity. Thus the dead are believed by the peasantry of many Catholic countries to return to their former homes on All Souls’ night and partake of the food of the living.”—Vol. I, p. 709.

The Encyclopedia Americana says: “Elements of the customs connected with Halloween can be traced to a Druid ceremony in pre-Christian times. The Celts had festivals for two major gods—a sun god and a god of the dead (called Samhain), whose festival was held on November 1, the beginning of the Celtic New Year. The festival of the dead was gradually incorporated into Christian ritual.”—(1977), Vol. 13, p. 725.

The book The Worship of the Dead points to this origin: “The mythologies of all the ancient nations are interwoven with the events of the Deluge ._._. The force of this argument is illustrated by the fact of the observance of a great festival of the dead in commemoration of the event, not only by nations more or less in communication with each other, but by others widely separated, both by the ocean and by centuries of time. This festival is, moreover, held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., the seventeenth day of the second month—the month nearly corresponding with our November.” (London, 1904, Colonel J. Garnier, p. 4) Thus these celebrations actually began with an honoring of people whom God had destroyed because of their badness in Noah’s day.—Gen. 6:5-7; 7:11.

Such holidays honoring “spirits of the dead” as if they were alive in another realm are contrary to the Bible’s description of death as a state of complete unconsciousness.—Eccl. 9:5,_10; Ps. 146:4.

Regarding the origin of belief in immortality of the human soul, see pages 101, 102, under the main heading “Death,” and pages 379, 380, under “Soul.”

What is the origin of Valentine’s Day?

The World Book Encyclopedia informs us: “Valentine’s Day comes on the feast day of two different Christian martyrs named Valentine. But the customs connected with the day ._._. probably come from an ancient Roman festival called Lupercalia which took place every February 15. The festival honored Juno, the Roman goddess of women and marriage, and Pan, the god of nature.”—(1973), Vol. 20, p. 204.

What is the origin of the practice of setting aside a day to honor mothers?

The Encyclopædia Britannica says: “A festival derived from the custom of mother worship in ancient Greece. Formal mother worship, with ceremonies to Cybele, or Rhea, the Great Mother of the Gods, were performed on the Ides of March throughout Asia Minor.”—(1959), Vol. 15, p. 849.

What Bible principles explain the viewpoint of Christians toward ceremonies commemorating events in a nation’s political history?

John 18:36: “Jesus answered [the Roman governor]: ‘My kingdom is no part of this world.’”

John 15:19: “If you [Jesus’ followers] were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.”

1_John 5:19: “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (Compare John 14:30; Revelation 13:1,_2; Daniel 2:44.)

Other local and national holidays

There are many. Not all can be discussed here. But the historical information provided above gives indications as to what to look for in connection with any holiday, and the Bible principles already discussed supply ample guidance for those whose foremost desire is to do what is pleasing to Jehovah God. [/B]


I mean no disrespect, but that is just rediculous. The whole holiday thing is uttery rediculous. Show me bible verses from KING JAMES, that proves the wise men came to Jesus when he was nearly 2 years old.

This is what I find so rediculous about JW's....they are so out their in their interpretations, it makes you wonder where in the world they come up with that stuff.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Now last but not least...Heaven:
And last but not least...Heaven:
Do all good people go to heaven?

Acts 2:34: “David [whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to Jehovah’s heart’] did not ascend to the heavens.”


Of course, only Elijah and Christ "ascended" into Heaven.

Matt. 11:11: “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (So John did not go to heaven when he died.)

No that means even the smallest person of importance in Heavan, is just as equal as he is.

Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth . . . The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

I do not like this translation at all....but this is saying meek persons will inherit the Earth....I dont seen any relevance?
If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven?

Gen. 1:26: “God went on to say: ‘Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.’” (So, God’s purpose for Adam was that he be caretaker of the earth and of the animal life there. Nothing is said about his going to heaven.)

It dicusses his life on Earth....why would it have to speak of each and every person going to Heaven. The bible isnt a record book of who got in and who didnt.

Gen. 2:16, 17: “Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (It was not Jehovah’s original purpose for man someday to die. God’s command here quoted shows that he warned against the course that would lead to death. Death was to be punishment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life in heaven. Obedience would have been rewarded by continued life, eternal life, in the Paradise that God had given to man. See also Isaiah 45:18.)

Must a person go to heaven to have a truly happy future?

Ps. 37:11: “The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”

Rev. 21:1-4: “I saw a new heaven and a new earth . . . I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’”

Mic. 4:3, 4: “They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken it.”

Did Jesus open the way to heaven for those who had died before his own death?

What does 1 Peter 3:19, 20 mean? “In this state [in the spirit, following his resurrection] also he [Jesus] went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls [“souls,” KJ, Dy; “people,” TEV, JB; “persons,” RS], were carried safely through the water.” (Were those “spirits in prison” the souls of the humans who had refused to take heed to Noah’s preaching before the Flood, and was the way now open for them to go to heaven? Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. At 1 Peter 3:19, 20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu´ma·sin, while the word rendered “souls” is psy·khai´. The “spirits” were not disembodied souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.)

What is the meaning of 1 Peter 4:6? “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (Were these “dead” the people who had died prior to the death of Christ? As already shown, the dead are not “the spirits in prison.” Those spirits were disobedient angels. And preaching would not have benefited physically dead humans because, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, they “are conscious of nothing at all,” and Psalm 146:4 adds that at death a person’s “thoughts do perish.” But Ephesians 2:1-7, 17 does refer to persons who were spiritually dead and who came to life spiritually as a result of accepting the good news.)

Is heavenly life set out in the “New Testament” as the hope for all Christians?

John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be.” (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)

Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gathering of the heirs of the heavenly Kingdom, there would be others who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in heavenly glory.)

What specific references are there in the “New Testament” to a provision for Christians to be rewarded with eternal life on earth?

Matt. 5:5: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”

Matt. 6:9, 10: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (What is God’s will regarding the earth? What do Genesis 1:28 and Isaiah 45:18 indicate?)

Matt. 25:31-33, 40, 46: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. . . . The king will say to them [the sheep], ‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ And [the goats] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones [the sheep] into everlasting life.” (Notice that these “sheep” are not the same as the King’s brothers, who are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” [Heb. 2:10–3:1] But these sheeplike ones would be alive during the time that Christ was on his throne and during the time when some of his “brothers” would still be experiencing hardship on earth.)

John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.” (Who are these “other sheep”? They are followers of the Fine Shepherd, Jesus Christ, but are not in the “new covenant” sheepfold, with hope of heavenly life. Yet they do come to be closely associated with those who are in that sheepfold.)

2 Pet. 3:13: “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.” (Also Revelation 21:1-4)

Rev. 7:9, 10: “After these things [after the apostle John saw the full number of “sealed” ones who had been “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion; see Revelation 7:3, 4; 14:1-3] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”

To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?

Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”

Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

Are the 144,000 only natural Jews?

Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun . . . Joseph . . . Benjamin.” (These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16.)

Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”

Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?

Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.

The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no´pi·on tou thro´nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.

The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.

What will those who go to heaven do there?

Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)

1 Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.”)

Who selects the ones who will go to heaven?

2 Thess. 2:13, 14: “We are obligated to thank God always for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected you from the beginning for salvation by sanctifying you with spirit and by your faith in the truth. To this very destiny he called you through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Rom. 9:6, 16: “Not all who spring from Israel are really ‘Israel.’ . . . It depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.”


Now jere I figure you to be a person of faith and reason. I have basically gave up on preaching or being preachy on this site because it only makes me frustrated. But you asked and I gave you just about all I can give you. I know others will come on and blast what I have written but I really dont care because I believe it is true and I hav read it from not only my Bible but other Bibles so I know it is true. I just hope your eyes can see what mine clearly show me...





After reading along, I have decided not to post directly to the remainder of your post.

I am pleased that at least you have some sort of religion, although I do not agree with it. Even your religion is better than being an Athiest. Atleast you have a love for Christ.

Jahova Whitnesses have mad the bible to say what they want it to say....They have added words such as Jahova at every spot the word God is mentioned, and they have nipped and tucked, and changed the bible (and thats the final commandment of the bible, not to change it)

I read a book one time called, Salvation JW Style, No Salvation At All....maybe you should read it, and tell me your thoughs on the book.


May God Lead You Always,
Jere