I am just going to start this thread so people who actually have seen F911 (or maybe you want to discuss Bowling) can discuss based on what they saw in the film. Not quoting reviews and stuff.

The movie was released in France today and I just saw it. The part which really shocked me was quite off-topic, at least not directly related to Bush. It's the interview of the young tank drivers, who describe how they put heavy metal CDs while in mission. I found this part really frightening.

The movie is pretty much what I expected - maybe more serious and argumented than I thought. Not the best Moore movie from a formal point of view but well done.

you find putting heavy metal CD's in while fighting frightening? WTF? it helps to get you pumped up and ready to kick some ass. they ar lucky they have a chance, i would have liked to do it but I dont think a walkman would cut it during fire and manuever. also, I doubt they listen to it in the ssion, probably right before. atheletes do it too. i dont see what the big deal is. do yuo find it disturbing when american troops put loud rock music on speakers to drive out holed up terrorists? this whole anti military thing is getting out of hand. now people are frightened by them listening to music.

I just saw the movie yesterday and I enjoyed it a lot. I understand that in previous efforts Moore has stretched the truth a bit but this time around I think he has put together a factual piece of work. Is it biased? Of course! It isn't Moore's jon to give both sides of the story. Crybaby Bush can defend himself.

As for the movie itself...one thing that really struck a chord was the scene with Al Gore, acting as President of the Senate, running the joint session of congress when the electoral votes are officially being counted. Several members of the congressional black caucus are trying to object, but not a single senator would sign their objections. Not one. It really hurt me to watch Al Gore bang his gavel to silence members of congress who are on his side.

so you admit that its biased and moore is known for stretching the truth, yet still consider this a documentary? I dont care if he makes his movies, the thing that ticks me off is that they are considered "documentaries"what a joke. I dont remember any documentaries I have seen being so slanted and cleverly edited. it would be like calling those old "Why We Fight" WW II propagnada films documentaries. both were designed for one thing and one thing only: to get people riled up. The only thing Farenheight 9-11 documents is Moores twisted view of the events following 9-11, a view only a true bush hater could have so soon after thousands of americans were blown to crap by islamic terrorists.

A documentary doesn't have to show both sides of something. A documentary is just supposed to explain something scientificly and with proof.
" 1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film." -Dictionary.com

While it may be slanted, by showing what his view is. But I have yet to see any proof that he actually re-edited something or flat out lied. I don't like Moore, but often you people are just flat idiots about it. It's also really funny how I see you saying that saying certain things to make people assume things that may be less than true is bad when Moore is doing it. But when we suggest that Bush is doing it, you say that we're crazy and that being paranoid. Yes, mind control.

Originally posted by Travh20
you find putting heavy metal CD's in while fighting frightening? WTF? it helps to get you pumped up and ready to kick some ass.

What i found frightening is the fact that some kids - yes, they are kids - whose only experience of fight seems to be videogames - are put in charge of deadly weapons such as an Abrams tank in the street of a crowded city. They have the power of inflicting death to dozen of people with one shot.
And how do they react ? Are they extra careful about what they do ? No. They just listen to heavy metal because it's funnier that way.

Imagine how the iraqi people may react to that. Imagine what it may be to have your house destoyed, your neighbors killed, by a twenty years old guy in a tank who only seems to have fun with his stereo system on.

That's what frightened me. Both for Iraqi and american people. Is it that way a war for "freedom and democracy" should be fought ? Are these kids fit to fight such a war ?

fitst, in response to bliblob, look at number 2 on your definitions, moores movie does none of those. taking quotes and using them in a different context is not being objective. objective is not in micheal moores vocabulary, he is a rabid leftist partisan who simeltaneously bashs and reaps the rewards of the society he lives in.

as for astro, these kids are not just some slobs off the street. they have gone through months and months of rigerous training. judging them becasue of the music they listen to is the same as judging someone by the length of their hair. What if the guy glying my plane wore tye die and had long hair? you have fallen into a clever trap layed by moore yet again. selectively puting up certain images to get this exact reaction. ya, real objective, a real documentary if I ever saw one :rolleyes:

fitst, in response to bliblob, look at number 2 on your definitions, moores movie does none of those. taking quotes and using them in a different context is not being objective.
I said that he slants. But I have yet to see any reasonable proof that he directly edits something, or directly misquotes people. Not to mention, how do you define the context of a quote? How do you know what the person was thinking about at the time?

they have gone through months and months of rigerous training
Training them to become killers. I think the point Astro was making about the music was not the kind it is, but the fact they go into battle so carelessly. Not to mention that Heavy Metal has always been one of the more violent music genres. It raises the blood pressure and heart rate more than other music, it stirs up adreneline more. To deny the fact that violent games desensitise people to violence and that heavier music raises adreniline is to deny our psychology. Your mind connects things without your full knowledge of it.

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, real objective, a real documentary if I ever saw one :rolleyes:

Trav, the question is...did you see this one?

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your opinions on this film, but I'd like to point out that Dio started this thread for people who have seen the movie.

Originally posted by Blibblob
fitst, in response to bliblob, look at number 2 on your definitions, moores movie does none of those. taking quotes and using them in a different context is not being objective.
I said that he slants. But I have yet to see any reasonable proof that he directly edits something, or directly misquotes people. Not to mention, how do you define the context of a quote? How do you know what the person was thinking about at the time?

thats exactly right bliblob, he may not make stuff up but he misleads people and uses their quotes out of context. he is the master of half truths and misleading people. go here to see a list of things list (http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm)

they have gone through months and months of rigerous training
Training them to become killers. I think the point Astro was making about the music was not the kind it is, but the fact they go into battle so carelessly. Not to mention that Heavy Metal has always been one of the more violent music genres. It raises the blood pressure and heart rate more than other music, it stirs up adreneline more. To deny the fact that violent games desensitise people to violence and that heavier music raises adreniline is to deny our psychology. Your mind connects things without your full knowledge of it. [/B][/QUOTE]

this shows your ignorance. what would you have our fighting men in the military train to be if not killers? tree huggers? activists? so anyway, are you suggesting we limit free speech and not allow heavy metal music, as it leads to violence and destruction? you sound like an old prude bliblob. half of the men over there cant buy a beer, now you want to stop them from enjoying the one thing that can remind them of home the most, that beig music? after letters from home, music that reminds you of home is the next best thing. if that happens to be evil heavy metal music so what. stop trying to fight this war through a cloud of compassion, its idiotic

thats exactly right bliblob, he may not make stuff up but he misleads people and uses their quotes out of context. he is the master of half truths and misleading people. go here to see a list of things list
He said, she said. Most of it is stuff that can't be proven either way. Hearsay is usually not permissible in court. To get most of that crap, you have to look very carefully, thinking every frame you watch is bound to have some sort of lie in it. That every scene is bound to have some kind of evil edit.

so anyway, are you suggesting we limit free speech and not allow heavy metal music, as it leads to violence and destruction?
Heavy Metal is one of my favorite genres. One of my favorite bands is Iron Maiden, and I plan on going to Ozzfest just to see Judas Priest and Otep. I'm sorry I can be critical of things I like, which you obviously can't. I know full well it's effects on a weak human psyche, but in no way do I condone banning it. Same with games, gamers know full well, and they joke about it, like Penny-Arcade or Ctr-Alt-Del. It's just that when they play it on the battlefield, it leaves the impression that they aren't taking it seriously. They're out there to kill, not play around. And most assuredly not play around with what they kill.

Originally posted by Travh20
so you admit that its biased and moore is known for stretching the truth, yet still consider this a documentary?

Moore as admitted it is bias, and has an agenda. To get President Bush out of office. But the information in the movie is backed up with documentation, and interviews.


Originally posted by Travh20
The only thing Farenheight 9-11 documents is Moores twisted view of the events following 9-11.

An example of how it’s twisted…? It’s easy to call it twisted, but not give an example.

Originally posted by astrapol2
What i found frightening is the fact that some kids - yes, they are kids - whose only experience of fight seems to be videogames - are put in charge of deadly weapons such as an Abrams tank in the street of a crowded city. They have the power of inflicting death to dozen of people with one shot.
And how do they react ? Are they extra careful about what they do ? No. They just listen to heavy metal because it's funnier that way.

Imagine how the iraqi people may react to that. Imagine what it may be to have your house destoyed, your neighbors killed, by a twenty years old guy in a tank who only seems to have fun with his stereo system on.

That's what frightened me. Both for Iraqi and american people. Is it that way a war for "freedom and democracy" should be fought ? Are these kids fit to fight such a war ?

i know some people who fought in afghanistan and they are pissed about that. some people like that music so they play it, but they dont force you to listen to it.

Astro, When i was 19, my MOS was 19K10, M1 crewmember. Most of the enlisted personel that i knew where under 21. My mission was to destroy Warsaw Pact forces at Fulda Gap in Germany. That means I was protecting YOU from a possible conflict in Europe. So that if you are scared of 18 to 21 year old personel on a 70 ton Battle Tank, just remember, there were alot of them in Germany protecting YOU during the cold war.

I cant believe we are discussing the horrors of tank drivers listening to heav metal music. we got al qeada operatives cutting off people heads and we are worryed about what micheal moore want us to worry about, that being what our fine young soldiers do in their own time.

Hey Trav, driving a tank is fun, even firing the 120 mm main gun.

It doesn't stuck me as that shocking that these soldiers listened to music to match their mood. However it shows their attitude toward their mission and it's a very worrying one...the soldiers' views seemed to be over simplified from their training (perhaps so they may focus on what they do without pondering questions like motifs and the morals and become hesitant). They just seemed to think: we are here to kick some ass, those that we are here fighting are real bad people and what I am doing protects my country. Later on the movie showed some of the soldiers started thinking more about the situation and many of them ran into doubts, disgusts, regret. And if you look at the faces of these soldiers by the time they have stayed in Iraq for a while, they looked very wearisome and looked like they didn't know why they are there anymore (some soldiers expressed this strongly) killing innocent people.

And yeah, Trav, I certainly hope you already saw the movie, otherwise please don't post on this thread.

Originally posted by Dio Seijuro
However it shows their attitude toward their mission and it's a very worrying one...the soldiers' views seemed to be over simplified from their training (perhaps so they may focus on what they do without pondering questions like motifs and the morals and become hesitant). They just seemed to think: we are here to kick some ass, those that we are here fighting are real bad people and what I am doing protects my country.

Maybe they were hearing a little too much Rush Limbaugh, which our Government funds...from my parents taxes.

But I do have to side in some way with them. It would be hard to consider them humans. Because once you consider your enemy human you are unable to commit the task at hand. It makes it extremely difficult for you to perform your duty. Although I disagree with what is going on in Iraq, if I were there, I’m sure I’d block out all emotional feelings for the enemy. Without doing that, you would most likely become mentally insane.

Originally posted by Overdose
It would be hard to consider them humans. Because once you consider your enemy human you are unable to commit the task at hand.

But… since when the Iraqi people are the enemy ? I thought their mission was to "liberate" them ?

Anyway, I do not blame the soldier-kids. I blame those in charge of their training. I blame the US govt for allowing such a war to be done.

This part of the movie reminded me of "kings of the desert", the movie with G. Clooney. What I thought was somehow parodic in this movie appeared to be just the truth : a war made by people without a clue of the human drama they are part of.

yes, you can download the movie off the internet for free. go to the site in my sig and check it out. it is really sad to see people who base their entire view of soldiers and the war off of some half baked, hyped up piece of crap movie. if you saw some super patriotic movie would you change your minds? or are you stuck in the "its americas fault, we are wrong" mind frame? it is not suprising that peple like overdose who live and die by hatred for bush latch onto a movie abot hating bush. I have yet to see anyone say they completly changed their mind from watching this movie. of course I am sure moore has found a whole slew of people who have and will gladly parade them around to stroke his own bloated ego.

Bush doesn't need Michael Moore to prove what a crappy president he is. Dubya's is perfectly capable of doing that all by himself. Of course, the masses are generally too self-absorbed and ignorant to actually research what Moore says in his films to see if it's actual fact or super-inflated innuendo, so they swallow his tripe whole and call it good.

The trouble is, Moore's actions give Bush an excuse to continue being an ass. Every time Bush screws up and Moore points a finger and shrieks out loud about it, all Bush has to say is "Mr. Moore has been shown to distort and manipulate facts repeatedly. This is just one more instance."

And he'd be right.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by astrapol2
But… since when the Iraqi people are the enemy ? I thought their mission was to "liberate" them ?


Yes, and when they do their missions to fight Al Queda, and the terrorists, they are forced to de-humanize the opponent or else they will go mentally insane.

yes, overdose who gets all his info about the military from those wo know nothing about it and thinks the decorations you wear on your chest are called "metals"

Originally posted by Travh20
yes, overdose who gets all his info about the military from those wo know nothing about it and thinks the decorations you wear on your chest are called "metals"

Trav, just because I at one point did not use the correct terminology doesn’t mean anything. You’re post has no relevance. My opinion still stands, and I agree with you somewhat on this issue in terms of them being forced to play this music and think the way they do.

and you od have no real military experience. the same a micheal moore. al queada favorite ally is micheal moore.

the old saying says the enemy of my enemy is my friend. micheal moore, overdose and al qeada all have the same main nemisis, george bush. they may not have the same end goal, but they have the same eemy, kind of like saddam and al qeada. different ambitions, same enemy.

Anything relevant to say, guys ?

you mean anything you may think is relavent? I guss not.

There is another aspect of the movie I would like to comment. It's at the beginning, when the senators, whose leader was Al Gore, fail to support the MOP motions against Bush's election.
How come the democrats senators failed to fight on that case ?

I am glad to see a reference to the 2000 election made it into a "documentary" about 9-11 :rolleyes:

Micheal Moore distorts info to his way of thinking to make people that are easily manipulated to belive that his findings are facts. This way, he can draw you (the viewer) into his charade of propaganda to divide the country into two. To pit one against the other. Since Micheal Moore does not like G.W.Bush and thinks that he is a doofus, he will try and do anything to discredit him. Also, since he is against the conflict in Iraq, he will try and do anything to discredit the U.S.military and its commanders. Since the classroom incident on 9/11 discrediting Bush on his reaction time. I can think of another leader of a country that did nothing for two weeks as the Germans rampaged through the Soviet Union. That person was Josef Stalin. So seven minutes in a classroom compared to two weeks in hiding. I would like Moore's interpretation on the difference between the two. He probly could only answer the Bush's did it. Since alot of you belive in what Moore has to say and defend him to the utter end. I have no need for little propagandas to spread Moore's distortion's on life.

Trav, it seems to me that u haven't seen the movie, simply becasue you aren't answering the question of whether u did or didn't. I'm not attacking you, juts asking again: did u see it?

My view on the music: I understnad perfectly what they are doing, and why, but it makes me feel uneasy. If the army is there to help "liberate" the Iraqis, they shouldn't be treating the situation so single mindedly. It seems to be that by listening ti such angry music, and tlaking about going out and kicking ass they are forgettting that its imperitave in a situation like this to be compasionate. too many civilians wrre killed during this "liberation", and i think it's becasue of this attitude instilled in the soldiers. it's not their fault, it's the fault of the people at the top, and I blame them for corrupting kids into non-thinking killing machines. it's really obvious that the sodliers were not trained properly for the Iraqi war, and it's definitely what has been causing so many problems.

Originally posted by WhammyBar
Trav, it seems to me that u haven't seen the movie, simply becasue you aren't answering the question of whether u did or didn't. I'm not attacking you, juts asking again: did u see it?

My view on the music: I understnad perfectly what they are doing, and why, but it makes me feel uneasy. If the army is there to help "liberate" the Iraqis, they shouldn't be treating the situation so single mindedly. It seems to be that by listening ti such angry music, and tlaking about going out and kicking ass they are forgettting that its imperitave in a situation like this to be compasionate. too many civilians wrre killed during this "liberation", and i think it's becasue of this attitude instilled in the soldiers. it's not their fault, it's the fault of the people at the top, and I blame them for corrupting kids into non-thinking killing machines. it's really obvious that the sodliers were not trained properly for the Iraqi war, and it's definitely what has been causing so many problems.

i know a provate who's group listens to rap. it is whatever the leaders fucking want

Originally posted by WhammyBar
Trav, it seems to me that u haven't seen the movie, simply becasue you aren't answering the question of whether u did or didn't. I'm not attacking you, juts asking again: did u see it?

My view on the music: I understnad perfectly what they are doing, and why, but it makes me feel uneasy. If the army is there to help "liberate" the Iraqis, they shouldn't be treating the situation so single mindedly. It seems to be that by listening ti such angry music, and tlaking about going out and kicking ass they are forgettting that its imperitave in a situation like this to be compasionate. too many civilians wrre killed during this "liberation", and i think it's becasue of this attitude instilled in the soldiers. it's not their fault, it's the fault of the people at the top, and I blame them for corrupting kids into non-thinking killing machines. it's really obvious that the sodliers were not trained properly for the Iraqi war, and it's definitely what has been causing so many problems.

I think you dont know what you are talking about little girl. go through basic traiing and 6 months in a war zone then talk about how inappropriate listening to music is. I cant take part in this nonsense anymore. it is completly assanine

The point isn't that they were listening to music. It was that some of the soldiers were put into the mindset that they should kill anyone and anything and that the Iraqi pepople were like animals. One soldier said that his favorite song was the Bloodhound Gang's "The Roof is on Fire" because it got him in the mood to burn down bagdad. I believe another soldier mentioned "let the bodies hit the floor" but I might be mistaken so don't take my word for it. Another scene shows troops handeling the body of a dead Iraqi and one of the soldiers was like "looks like ali baba here still has a hard on." Then something along the lines of "aw dude you touched it, are you gay?"

Right, Idiotique, that's what I was saying. The problem was that they were fed this simplified (if not outright incorrect) mindset about what they are there to do, who they are fighting, and such. That they were listening to such music during mission was just a consequence of that.

Trav, if you choose not to answer whether you have seen the movie or not when people have been asking you multiple times you are being the ass. Which wouldn't be news.

I believe that Trav said that you can download it for free and that the link is in his signature line.

On the music issue...the troops (kids, if you will) are trained and pumped up to go into battle. Like Trav said, many of them can't even buy beer because they aren't 21. Which, is another bunch of crap IMO... If you haven't served, you have no idea what it's like. They have the chance to DIE for chrissakes. If they want to listen to Metal, Rap or friggin' opera, they damn well should have the right to do so. THEY don't make the rules...they just follow them and SAVE our ASSES from harm. (Let's not discuss whether or not they are saving our asses from harm at the present time...but in general.) No, I haven't served personally...but hubby has and hubby is a proud Army Vet. It just makes no sense to me why we're arguing about such a lame portion of this movie. BIG EFFEN DEAL.

The part of the movie that really blew me away was the fact that 140 +/- Saudi's and of them 24 or so Bin Ladens were flown out of our country on 9/13. WTF? Like some of the investigative personnel said...you question the family first! IMO, this is just too damn coincidental. If Bush & Co. were afraid for their (the BinLaden family and the Saudis) safety - too fucking bad. We had just lost thousands of our own people due to OBL -- let them be afraid. Be very afraid.

I don't like the way that the Bush family has their hands in shady dealings with the Middle East. All for the almighty dollar at the sacrifice of our country, our economy, etc. We'll probably never get OBL unless the BinLadens give him up as the sacrificial lamb.

Another thing, in Bush's defense - and you KNOW I HATE TO DO THAT - was everyone's griping about the 11 or so minutes that he spent with the kids in the class after he was supposedly told that we have just come under attack... FIRST. We are hearing MOORE say that Bush has just been told "we are under attack". We are seeing Moore's timeclock on the screen. For all we know, Bush could have been told that a plane had hit the towers. We didn't know right away that we were under attack. Even if he were told we were under attack....should he jump up and make a hasty exit? Should he immediately order an attack? What should he have done for 10 minutes? I'm still in awe at the different answers I hear for that.